"I think one of the first triggers to where you need to turn your mind to, maybe you need some legal advice or legal help or a system, and this isn't necessarily something you need to go to a lawyer for but it's something that you should turn your mind to because there are legal ramifications, and it's the idea of contracts." Adrienne Ng

Legal Tips for Nonprofit Coaching and Consulting with Adrienne Ng

Do you wonder if you're overlooking vital legal aspects of your business? Is the thought of hiring a lawyer daunting to you, especially if you're in the early stages of your entrepreneurial journey? In this episode, we sit down with Adrienne, a seasoned lawyer and the founder of Open LLP, a boutique law firm specializing in helping startups, and entrepreneurs. Adrienne shares her wealth of knowledge to provide some guidance on navigating the legal landscape of your business.

Highlights:

• Identifying the legal questions every small business owner should be asking

• Understanding the importance and role of contracts in your business.

• Distinguishing between templated contracts and custom-made ones, and knowing when to use each.

• Why it's crucial to have Intellectual Property assignment clauses in your contracts

• The concept of 'Common Law Trademark Rights' and how it affects your business

• When it's time to consider formally applying for a trademark registration

Connect with Adrienne Ng:

Open LLP : https://www.openllp.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/open.llp/

Find Us Online:  https://www.confessionswithjessandcindy.com/

Connect with Cindy:

Cindy Wagman Coaching https://cindywagman.com/

The Good Partnership https://www.thegoodpartnership.com/

Connect with Jess: 

Out In the Boons: https://www.outintheboons.me

Transcript:

00:00:00 Cindy: Welcome to the Confessions podcast. I'm Cindy Wagman.

00:00:03 Jess: And I'm Jess Campbell. We're two former in-house nonprofit pros turned coaches and consultants to purpose-driven organizations.

00:00:11 Cindy: After years of building up our separate six-figure businesses from scratch, we've thrown a lot of spaghetti at the wall and have lived to see what sticks.

00:00:20 Jess: We're on a mission to help other nonprofit coaches and consultants looking to start or scale their own businesses past the six-figure mark by pulling back the curtain.

00:00:30 Cindy: Whether you're still working inside a nonprofit and thinking of one day going out on your own, or you've been running your consulting business for years, you understand that working with nonprofits is just different. We're giving you access to the business leaders who serve nonprofits as their clients. You know, the people who truly get it.

00:00:52 Jess: No more gatekeeping, no more secrets. This podcast is going to give you an inside look at what running a successful nonprofit coaching and consulting business looks like. Basically, we're asking people how much money they make, how they get paid, and what has and hasn't worked in their businesses.

00:01:11 Cindy: Listen in as these leaders share their insights, their numbers, and the good, the bad, and the ugly when it comes to building a nonprofit coaching or consulting business. We're going to empower you to make the power moves that give you the income and freedom you set out to create from day one.

00:01:28 Jess: You ready? Let's go.

00:01:31 Cindy: Hey, Jess.

00:01:33 Jess: Hi, Cindy. We're back.

00:01:36 Cindy: We're back. And today, this is kind of like a by-demand episode because people have been asking for us to have a conversation with the lawyer. So we reached out to my lawyer, Adrienne, who is joining us today. And we're going to now, of course, I'll preface this by saying we cannot give, and even Adrienne cannot give specific legal advice on the podcast. That would be very irresponsible of all of us, but we're going to do our best to try, just give you some things to think about as you consider the legal side of your business. So welcome to the podcast, Adrienne.

00:02:17 Adrienne: Thank you. Hi, everyone.

00:02:20 Cindy: Awesome. So let's just sort of, well, before we dive into the nitty-gritty, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your business, Open LLP?

00:02:30 Adrienne: Sure. So Open LLP is a boutique law firm and our client base is startups, high-growth companies and entrepreneurs. I've been practicing law for over a decade now. I know that makes me feel and sound really old, but I guess it has been that long. My practice is based… my practice focus is corporate commercial law and also a small portion of intellectual property and trademarks.

00:03:14 Cindy: Ooh, okay. I didn't like full disclosure. I have not, I don't think I trademarked anything or have trademarked anything in my business. So we definitely have to come back to that, but let's kind of start at the beginning with like for a small business, whether you're a sole proprietor or even a small corporation or the state's an LLC, what are some of the, like, where do we need legal help? What are some of the questions we should be asking a lawyer specifically that we can't answer on our own?

00:03:55 Adrienne: So I think one of the first triggers, to where you need to turn your mind to, maybe you need some legal advice or legal help or assistance. And this shouldn't be necessarily something you need to go to a lawyer for, but it's something that you should turn your mind to because there are legal ramifications. So, and it's the idea of contracts. And sometimes I find when you hear the word contract, it causes panic because you think of… you share the word contract and you think of a document that might be 20 pages long, filled with sentences that are as long as the paragraph, really long words, really not simple to understand. And you write, read the first sentence and it causes you panic and you think, oh my goodness, this is beyond me. So I'm just not going to have a contract, right? That's, I hear that kind of story a lot, but what I want to tell your listeners is that, so one of the first triggers is whether you have a relationship with somebody that is outside of your company. So that's the first trigger that you might need to contract.

00:05:33 Adrienne: So the idea is if you have a relationship, whether it's you've hired a graphic designer or you've hired a personal assistant or somebody has asked you to be on a podcast, anytime there's a relationship or an interaction with somebody outside of your business that calls for a contract. And so what is the contract? A contract isn't necessarily a really long document. It may not necessarily be a short document or a document at all. So the contract really is just a meeting of the minds. It's to make sure that the parties are on the same page. So what one person promises another person and vice versa, that should be on the table. That should be, that you want to make sure you're on the same page. So that really, is what a contract is. It doesn't have to be… it can be a verbal contract. And now the reason why most people don't just rely on verbal contracts is because it's hard to keep track of what you said. And it's kind of hard to prove what you had agreed upon. So that's why you end up with written contracts. So that's kind of, you know, the first trigger as to why you might need a contract.

00:07:20 Cindy: Amazing. So I will… I confess, like I obviously have hired you to write some contracts that are very specific and very client focused, but I've also used some templated contracts. Sorry, my dog's barking. I don't know if it's, if he can hear it. I've also used templated contracts where, you know, for my website, privacy policy and things like that. So at what point do we start to think about the difference between something that's really customized versus something that like everyone and their sister has the version of it?

00:07:57 Adrienne: So I think the short answer to that is if you find a templated contract and you read it and you know exactly what the terms mean and you also know exactly what you want to protect and that aligns with what's in the contract, then by all means, you can absolutely use a templated contract. So where I find clients might run into issues is that number one, they don't actually understand what's in the contract. And that's actually worse than writing your own one page point form summary of what you want to protect. Because at least with a point form summary, you know exactly what you're writing, you know exactly what you're asking for. With a contract template that you don't necessarily understand, like is it really value added? So that's the first point. The second point is that sometimes you don't know what you don't know. So how do you know certain things should be important to you so that you know to put it in the contract? Or so you know that the template might be missing something and you need to add something in. So I think that's the second point. So yes, a template can work if you already know what it might be missing or exact the laundry list of what you are looking for so that you can compare it against the template to make sure it meets your needs.

00:10:01 Jess: So like, to the listeners, unsurprised, like all of this kind of business side of our businesses is like, hurts my head. It's so much. It can be so scary, right? And so, for example, what you were just talking about, I've mostly relied on contract based templates. And I'm totally that person that I don't know what I don't know. And worse, it requires a different level of effort for me to even wrap my head around it. For whatever reason, it's a real stop for me. And so do you advise folks to reach out to a lawyer like yourself who maybe has contract templates and pay an hour of your time to review that and understand it? Or do you just advise people to do something custom? I'm trying to think of our audience, right? And a lot of folks are really small businesses. Some people, they might be in their first year of business making less than six figures a year. And so the investment of custom templates and paid lawyer time sounds very scary and expensive. So for those people in that category, what do you recommend so that they're getting a tool that works for their business, but that they also understand?

00:11:36 Adrienne: Okay, that's a great question. I think I'm kind of pretending if I needed my own, if I needed legal advice, what would I do? I think the best use of resources is probably instead of, what I wouldn't do is ask a lawyer to review a template. The reason is that you've already kind of let the lawyer down the path as to, you know, I need this reviewed. And then the advice is going to be focused on that very narrow contract, that very narrow template that you found, which may not be the right thing to begin with, but you've already kind of pigeonholed that, the task, the lawyer into that task. Probably what I would spend, you know, legal fees on is maybe a one hour consultation with the lawyer where you tell them, you give them the background of your business, what you're doing, what kind of interactions you have, who you work with, and just a general context and background of your business. And then you basically ask the lawyer, what things do I need to consider? And this is where you will find what you don't know, right? And I think without knowing that, it's hard to really even know what templates to look for. You don't even know what to Google, right? So it's, I think kind of getting the lay of the land, figuring out the legal landscape that surrounds your business is probably the first step. And then that way, I know sometimes I do these conversations all the time, and I do find myself saying, if you'd like to know more, just Google the law, like Google common law trademarks. And there's… but you needed to, the client needed to know what to even Google to read more about it, right?

00:13:58 Adrienne: So that's probably what I would start off with. I think, yeah, if you found a template contract and you ask the lawyer to review it, you might not be able to get that big picture legal advice. And so, yes, it's true, in the consultation, lawyer might not be reviewing a contract, might not be drafting it, but based on the conversation, then you can kind of prioritize, this is what I need. These are the things I need in a contract. This is what I, you know, and then you can kind of prioritize what tasks you need to do. You know, when you might want to spend money on a lawyer, when you might be able to rely on a template. And then sometimes you might, like, you can do it yourself. It's, you may not even need a template. Like, if you already know, if you already figure out what you need to need to know, even if it's just a point form, one pager that says all the important things that is important to you in that, in your relationship with that outside person or service provider or client or whoever, you're already well ahead of where you were before.

00:15:31 Cindy: I love that framing of it because essentially you flipped it on your head and said, instead of giving this narrow review to a lawyer, ask them to help you think of the big picture so that you can figure out the narrow stuff if you want on your own. I feel like I have case studies in my own business of, like, I have tried, so like I've worked with you and we've created very specific custom contracts. Back in the day, I had employment contracts when I had employees. I'm pretty sure I had, like, a legal service, which was, like, they would review documents and stuff like that. When I restructured my business, I had an employment lawyer look at those and rewrite all of them because he was like, this is not going to… this is not serving you, it is not serving your employees. And so definitely the cautionary tale of, like, just having someone legally review a document, the document technically might be fine, but it doesn't mean it suits the needs of your business and the relationships that you have. So I have lived that. And I think your advice is really great around using a lawyer as a starting point instead of a final review.

00:16:50 Adrienne: I just wanted to add something to your point about employment contracts. So when I kind of give, like, a 101 or, like, type, like, a big picture consultation to my clients, the one thing I always say is DIY for, you know, client contracts, but when it comes to employment contracts, do not DIY. I should just say that. Do not DIY an employment contract. Don’t even ask a corporate lawyer like myself to do it. The only thing I know about employment law in Canada, I think it is different in the US. The only thing I know about employment law in Canada is that I do not know a thing about employment law and that you need to hire an employment lawyer. There are lawyers who only do employment law. So I have said that to people before. Whatever you DIY, don't do the employment piece yourself.

00:17:57 Cindy: Good advice. Take it from me as well. So, you know, we have client contracts, we have employment contracts, we have contracts with, you know, vendors or, like, for example, we have contracts with podcast guests and other people who we work with or around. Is there any type of contract that you see organizations, not organizations, businesses forget about? Like, just not even think that they need a contract for that? Like, for a long time, I have been podcasting for five years. I did not have a contract at the beginning. I used to run webinars, I probably still do this when I have guests on webinars and stuff like that and I don't have a contract for them. So should I? Are there other areas that you see consistently left out of that formalization of the relationship?

00:18:57 Jess: Okay, Adrienne, we are back for another round of our rapid fire questions with Jess and Cindy. You, up for playing?

00:19:05 Adrienne: Yeah, for sure.

00:19:09 Jess: What is the first thing you drink in the morning?

00:19:12 Adrienne: Coffee, black.

00:19:15 Jess: Where do you go for professional development? Podcasts, books, retreats?

00:19:22 Adrienne: The Law Society of Ontario. So exciting, I know.

00:19:27 Jess: One of the questions I wanted to ask you is what do lawyers do for fun?

00:19:33 Adrienne: Sleep.

00:19:34 Jess: Good answer. And last question, what is the best part about running a small business?

00:19:44 Adrienne: Being able to do a podcast like this at 3pm in the afternoon without anyone emailing me or calling me.

00:19:55 Jess: Okay, I lied. I have one more question. When you were working in-house as a fundraiser, what was the most hours you worked in a week?

00:20:07 Adrienne: You mean as a lawyer?

00:20:09 Jess: Yeah. Or at a big firm? Yeah.

00:20:13 Adrienne: Over 80 hours.

00:20:16 Jess: I'm so glad you're doing your small business now. Hopefully it's better. Thank you for playing.

00:20:22 Adrienne: All right, sounds good.

00:20:28 Adrienne: So I'm going to talk about one clause or one aspect. It's not necessarily a contract type, but it is a consideration that often gets overlooked in part because clients don't really know that was the case to begin with. And this relates to intellectual property. So when you hire somebody to create something, that person is creating intellectual property. So whether it's a logo or a website or some are doing copywriting, they're creating intellectual property. When you have an employee, that a formal employee, the intellectual property that the employee creates is automatically owned by the employer. At least this is in Canada. I think it's similar in the US. Now, if you hire a contractor, and most of the time with young businesses and startups, and most of the time the people that you hire to work with as a service provider will probably be a contractor. When the contractor creates intellectual property, the default is that the contractor owns it unless it is assigned to you in writing, not just verbally, it has to be in writing.

00:22:19 Adrienne: So this is one thing that often gets overlooked because you think, okay, well, I'm going to pay a fee to a graphic designer to design a logo for me. You get the logo, you pay the money, and you think, okay, that's done. Right? You got what you wanted, but what's missing is that IP assignment because the graphic designer was probably hired as a contractor and they never assigned the IP to do in writing. And where this would be an issue is that if you ever sell your company or if you ever want to license your logo to somebody else, you can't sell what you don't own, you can't license what you don't own, or that you don't have the rights to. So IP assignment or in dealing with IP created by contractor who will be anyone except an employee, you need the IP assignment clause in your contract.

00:23:38 Cindy: Mind blows.

00:23:40 Jess: Well, I'm also like, whoa, baby. Okay.

00:23:44 Adrienne: Even things like social media, or social media coordinator who might make posts in Canva for you. If they're the ones dragging that blue square on top of the orange square and putting that, you know, the fancy text that says 10K followers, they've created art, they've created intellectual property. So they own that unless they assign it to you. Most of the time, the creator may not actually know that and they'll let you use it and you kind of think it's like an implied license, they haven't said anything and they're letting you use it, so it's like an implied license. But where there might be an issue is that, you know, if you sell your company and the buyers or you have an investor, one of the first things the buyers and the investors will do is due diligence. And one of the first things in that due diligence exercise is the chain of IP ownership. So what you don't want is for, you know, an acquisition or an investment to make [use] and the IP creator all of a sudden is like, hmm, they don't actually own that, I'm going to… let me go see if I can ask for some money for IP ownership or. So that's why it's really important to have.

00:25:19 Jess: Okay, let's stay in this vein. Cindy said at the top of the conversation that she's never trademarked anything in her business, is, I've never trademarked anything in my business, we both have created a ton of stuff, like the understatement of the year. Cindy, I'm just curious, like, why haven't you? You're like, way more on it than me. And so I'm actually surprised. I feel like this is something you would have done.

00:25:46 Cindy: Okay, so based on my very limited understanding that I could be completely wrong. So it's so good to have you Adrienne for the call to confirm is, I believe, that if I'm using a term or phrase that would be considered trademarkable, if I'm out in the market with a first and I'm using it and it's identifiable with my brand, I understand that it's like, not default trademark, but there's, I don't know the right legal way to describe it, but that I kind of own it, like it's mine. So I've just never… that was just kind of my understanding. So someone tried to use my business name, like I feel like I have enough out in the universe to show that it's my business name. Like I own the URL, I have the URL, I have the hashtags, I have the, whatever, all the things. So that has always been my reasoning. Am I right? Or should I?

00:26:50 Adrienne: You're actually correct. You're actually correct. And in fact, because of that, I'll explain it in a bit. But because of that, I often say a formal trademark application for registration is probably not the top priority. So what Cindy just talked about is called common law trademark rights. And I think it's similar in both Canada and the US, the idea is that the moment a business starts using a trademark in the usual course of commerce, so that means available to the public, it can't just be a landing page in the usual course of commerce. And assuming that that is a proper trademark, you have common law trademark rights, if you're the first person to use it and somebody else comes along and uses the same trademark for their business that is similar to what you're offering, then you can say, I have seen your right, I used it first, I have common law rights, please stop like, please stop infringing. So what Cindy's saying is true. And it is called common law trademark rights. So if you want to Google this word, you can Google common law trademark rights.

00:28:22 Jess: Okay, but you said, sorry, you said that it's not a top priority. But at what point should you prioritize it? I mean, there has to be a reason.

00:28:34 Adrienne: Yeah. Exactly. So the reason why people apply for trademark registration is that it's irrefutable proof that it's yours. It's easy proof. Right? So if Cindy wanted to send a cease and desist letter to somebody who is infringing on her trademark, now you've got to dig up proof as to the fact that you used it first. So what is that proof? Like you have to scroll back on Facebook that says, I've launched my business, please contact me at this email address for more information. So now you have to do screenshots of that proof. Does that proof even exist anymore? Maybe you would go to Wayback Machine and try to find an archived version of your old website. The trademark registration gives more teeth to your trademark ownership, the fact that you own it. Another thing too, is that it's an easy place for people to search. You know, when other people are thinking about a trademark or business name, you know, of course they'll Google, but they'll also check the trademark registries to see, just as another place to search.

00:30:09 Cindy: And I asked about trademarking things that are not your business name. So that one is obviously, I think what most people gravitate towards, but like product names or even like, do we, like, I don't think I can trademark because there's other things that we cannot trademark. So for example, what you know, Adrienne is the constellation, which is my network of fundraisers. We now call the Fractional Fundraiser Academy as the training program. I can't trademark Fractional Fundraiser, right? Because that is a term that kind of, I don't know the right word, but like–

00:30:48 Adrienne: It describes. It describes the service.

00:30:51 Cindy: Yeah. Yeah. So am I correct? Like I can't, there's certain things that we can't trademark by nature of it being a commonly used phrase or things like that. Is that fair?

00:31:06 Adrienne: Yeah. Yeah, that's absolutely correct. So one of the requirements for something to be a trademark is that it can't be descriptive of the good or service that trademark is associated with. So, you know, if I were to open a coffee shop, I can't call it the coffee shop because otherwise I would have monopolized the words, the coffee shop that actually describes tens and thousands of other coffee shops in the city. So a trademark can't be descriptive. Now in terms of you, you asked about, does it have to be a business name? So the answer is no. So anything that you have a brand on, that it could be a product line, it could be a program, anything, any name that is used as a brand for that product line or, you know, sub business, that can be a trademark too.

00:32:13 Cindy: And does that fall under the same thing? Like if you're out there and you're using it, it's still you, by default, have that.

00:32:22 Adrienne: Yes.

00:32:23 Cindy: Yeah. So, okay.

00:32:24 Adrienne: Same trademark rules.

00:32:26 Cindy: Yeah. Cool. Okay. Are there things that you–

00:32:30 Jess: I can just think, wow.

00:32:33 Cindy: Are there things that we like without hesitation should think about trademarking or, you know, I don't want, protecting other IP. Like we talked a lot about the IP around subcontractors, but what… are there other things that we should protect in this way?

00:32:52 Adrienne: So I'll answer that question. And this also ties into Jess's statement before of like, when should you trade? When should you apply for trademark registration? At what point? So at what point, it would be as soon as you realize that there is value in your brand, where if you were to change, if you had to change your brand the next day, you would actually lose, you would have lost something. So, yes. So, you know, for lawyers, you know, lawyers, law firms are notoriously bad at trademarks or they have firms where, like last name, last name, LLP. And part of that is because of the nature of a client's relationship with their lawyer. You choose the firm, not necessarily because of the firm, but because of the lawyers that you liked and have worked with. So, you know, in that sense, how much value is there?

00:34:12 Adrienne: Now, Open LLP does have a trademark registration, but it really… but the value of the firm name is, you know, not as important as one's relationship with their lawyer. You know, if you are wanting to license your brand to somebody else so, you know, you want to hire, let's see, what's an example of licensing. So let's say, a t-shirt shop really likes the work that you do and wants to create t-shirts with your brand because they want to support you. And they're going to be the ones printing them and making them and selling them. So in order for them to actually be able to do that is they have to license your trademark. So when it gets into licensing and when there's more expansion of your trademarks and other parties might be using it, then, you know, there's value in that. And that might be a trigger to apply for trademark registration.

00:35:35 Jess: Yeah, we do, like, a story time. I'm curious as to when you've had a situation or maybe one of your clients has had a situation where, like a contract or a trademark just really came in clutch. I feel like, you know, we talk about this, but I feel like a really practical example would be really helpful for people to picture, you know, they're at the fork in the road and they can either go left or they can go right. And the contract and the trademark really saved the day. Do you have any stories you can share with our audience?

00:36:23 Adrienne: I have a client who is an apparel company and they have really catchy slogans. And basically we saw their apparel on the street, you would know who made it. Because their slogans are so catchy, they actually have a lot of knockoffs. I have sent several solutions, just letters to those companies knocking off their apparel. And it just helps to be able to reference trademark registration numbers or even application numbers. Most of the times, the knocking off is a bit unintentional. I mean, of course, it's intentional, but maybe the person thought, oh, I didn't know this is wrong. I didn't know. I thought it was something that was just cool. And I didn't know I couldn't copy this slogan to be printed on a t-shirt. So when they get that letter that says, please stop using it, of course, we also explain about trademark rights and when they've been using it. But we also refer to the trademark application number or the trademark registration number. And it just adds teeth to that cease and desist letter. It kind of… it's, you know, when something has an application number with the government, all of a sudden it seems, oh, wow, this is actually real. Like, oh, wow, this person, it's on record with the government that they own this or they've applied to own it. And I find that, really, is helpful. Imagine if you have to write a cease and desist letter that says we've been using this trademark since 2012 as you can see from the attached screenshot from Wayback Machine or the social media post. Right? Also the idea of common law trademarks and first use rights is a little bit more abstract. And it's a legal concept, which the reader of the cease and desist letter might have trouble getting their heads around. But if it's a… there's a trademark registration number, then it's more likely to kind of trigger the reader in the right way.

00:39:03 Cindy: Okay, we're running out of time, but I want to sort of wrap up our conversation with. I could have had a good question and now I forgot it. It's one of those days. Yeah, it was a really good question.

00:39:25 Jess: Like cease and desist.

00:39:27 Cindy: No, no, it was about kind of like, oh, I remember, what to look for as we're, if we're like, oh my goodness, I need to start working with a lawyer ASAP. What are some criteria that we should be thinking of as we look for the lawyer who's going to be the right fit for us in our business?

00:39:50 Adrienne: So I think what you just said hit the nail on the head, which is, right fit. So do shock around, do you have several conversations? And you want to find the right fit. And part of that comes with… and part of that is because running a business can be a really emotional journey. Most of the times, you're calling the lawyer because something bad has happened or you're panicked about something or you're worried about something and the lawyer needs to understand where you're coming from, understand why that's important for your business. So the right fit really, really matters. And sometimes you're not going to get a good feel until you have that chat with the lawyer. Some lawyers will charge fees for an initial consultation. Some lawyers won't. And there's enough lawyers that don't charge a fee for initial consultation and it's probably going to be short, like maybe half an hour or so.

00:41:09 Adrienne: But it would be enough for you to know what, the more conversations you have, the more you know what you're looking for. Some lawyers have maybe like a lot of experience in 20 years in a certain niche. Maybe that's important for you. Maybe it's not. So I think that would probably be my advice is, you know, ask for referrals, talk to, you know, do, it's a bit like dating. So don't be afraid to talk to more than a few. Cause you might not know what you're looking for until you, you know, have that first few initial conversations.

00:41:56 Cindy: Amazing. Adrienne, where can our listeners learn more about you and connect?

00:42:04 Adrienne: We have a website, www.openllp.com. We also have an Instagram account, which I feel like has not been updated since, before the pandemic.

00:42:18 Cindy: Likewise.

00:42:18 Adrienne: But it's @open.llp on Instagram.

00:42:24 Cindy: Amazing.

00:42:25 Jess: This was so helpful.

00:42:27 Cindy: Yeah. That was super, super helpful. And like I've learned so much, even though I have a lawyer, so thank you.

00:42:39 Adrienne: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

00:42:43 Cindy: Thank you again for listening to the Confessions Podcast for nonprofit coaches and consultants. If you enjoyed today's episode, which I sure hope you did, you can show your support in one of three ways.

00:42:54 Jess: Number one, post the screenshot of this episode to your Instagram stories or LinkedIn profile and tag Cindy and I so we can repost you.

00:43:02 Cindy: Number two, share this podcast with a fellow nonprofit coach or consultant.

00:43:07 Jess: And number three, leave a positive review on Apple podcasts so that we can continue to grow and reach new listeners.

00:43:13 Cindy: And of course, make sure you subscribe so you can get the latest and greatest interviews as they drop every Thursday.

00:43:20 Jess: And to our fellow nonprofit coaching and consulting friends, remember, we're an open book and here to answer your burning biz questions.

00:43:27 Cindy: See you next time.