AMA - Battling Imposter Syndrome
It is never an easy battle when the enemy is yourself, but imposter syndrome is something 100% of us go through in our business journey.
In this episode of Confessions Podcast, Cindy and Jess listen to a confession from one anonymous caller sharing their experience with imposter syndrome. They dig deep by sharing their own Imposter moments throughout their experience with their businesses. The struggle is real - so let’s talk about it!
Highlights:
We all struggle with Imposter Syndrome - and it sucks.
How to identify where your Imposter Syndrome comes from and whose voices you’re actually hearing in your head.
Some approaches to to combat Imposter Syndrome
Resources Mentioned In This Episode:
Find Us Online: https://www.confessionswithjessandcindy.com/
Connect with Cindy:
Cindy Wagman Coaching https://cindywagman.com/
The Good Partnership https://www.thegoodpartnership.com/
Connect with Jess:
Out In the Boons: https://www.outintheboons.me/
Transcript
[00:00:00] Cindy: Welcome to the Confessions podcast. I'm Cindy Wagman.
[00:00:03] Jess: And I'm Jess Campbell. We're two former in-house nonprofit pros turned coaches and consultants to purpose-driven organizations.
[00:00:11] Cindy: After years of building up our separate six-figure businesses from scratch. We've thrown a lot of spaghetti at the wall and have lived to see what sticks.
[00:00:20] Jess: We're on a mission to help other nonprofit coaches and consultants looking to start or scale their own businesses past the six-figure mark, by pulling back the curtain.
[00:00:30] Cindy: Whether you're still working inside a nonprofit and thinking of one day going out on your own, or you've been running your consulting business for years, you understand that working with nonprofits is just different. We're giving you access to the business leaders who serve nonprofits as their clients. You know, the people who truly get it.
[00:00:52] Jess: No more gatekeeping, no more secrets. This podcast is going to give you an inside. Look at what running a successful nonprofit coaching and consulting business looks like. Basically, we're asking people how much money they make, how they get paid, and what has, and hasn't worked in their businesses.
[00:01:11] Cindy: Listen in as these leaders share their insights, their numbers and the good, the bad and the ugly when it comes to building a nonprofit coaching or consulting business, we're gonna empower you to make the power moves that give you the income and freedom you set out to create from day one.
[00:01:28] Jess: You ready? Let's go. We're so pumped, that you've tuned into the confessions podcast where we're pulling back the curtain on all things, nonprofit coaching and consulting to keep things super fun. We're doing a giveaway to celebrate our launch.
[00:01:44] Cindy: Woohoo. We rounded up our four favorite business goodies to help you build your business to enter. All you have to do is share your favorite episode on social media, tagging @outintheboons_ and cindywagman.com_coaching.
[00:02:01] Jess: Or DM as a screenshot of your subscription rating or review.
[00:02:06] Cindy: The giveaway ends on September 30th.
[00:02:09] Cindy & Jess: Good luck!
[00:02:11] Cindy: Hey Jess.
[00:02:12] Jess: Hey Cindy. It's gonna be fun.
[00:02:14] Cindy: This is so fun. This is our first episode where it's just Jess and I, but instead of having a guest, we actually have one of you listeners who called in anonymously to share your own confession or question that we're going to chat about.
[00:02:33] Cindy: So if you haven't checked out that function, go to our website. It's on the main menu. You can send us a voicemail [or] voice message and we will talk about it.
[00:02:44] Jess: Yes, ask us anything. Clearly, we're open books.
[00:02:48] Cindy: We're so open. So with that, we're going to play you the audio that was sent to us, and then we will chat about it. Here you go.
[00:03:00] Anonymous Caller: I really struggle with feeling that I'm good enough or qualified enough to put my fundraising skills [into] action as a consultant or to look into like coaching or consulting as a business. And I feel like probably a lot of that has to do with Imposter Syndrome and you know, being a young professional female in the workspace.
[00:03:22] Anonymous Caller: And I'm curious, what kind of feedback or support you guys can suggest for, you know, feeling worthy, I guess of even starting your own consultancy? And how do you, how do you jump in? How do you feel confident in that choice?
[00:03:40] Cindy: Ooh, all the feels with that one.
[00:03:44] Jess: I know it just reminds me of moments I still have. I was gonna say moments from a past life business jest but like, let's be straight. I still have moments where I have Imposter Syndrome.
[00:03:59] Cindy: Oh, we all do. And like, you know, there's a saying, I'm totally gonna butcher it, but like, if you don't have the fact that you have Imposter Syndrome means you're probably not an imposter. If you don't ever have Imposter Syndrome, then you should be worried about you being overly confident.
[00:04:18] Jess: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:19] Cindy: But it is something we all struggle with and we've heard other podcast guests talk about this.
[00:04:25] Jess: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:26] Cindy: But we thought this was a good opportunity to deep dive into it a little bit more and have that conversation. And of course, we'd love to hear everyone's thoughts to share with us on social and everywhere else. But for me, what really comes up and I love what you're gonna see about Jess and [me], is we have different approaches.
[00:04:47 Jess: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:47] Cindy: And so for me, what comes up is, you know, the stories that we tell ourselves that are running through our brains around, you know, our worthiness and I have a consultant on our team when she started.
[00:05:02] Cindy: You know, she definitely suffered from Imposter Syndrome and not feeling worthy. And when we started to unpack that, it was one of her boss' voices that was like on autopilot in her brain. And this was a boss who micromanaged [and] who told her that her work wasn't great, you know, wanted to see everything and just made her feel like crap.
[00:05:25] Cindy: And for her to go out and consult felt really overwhelming because she just couldn't shake that voice. And we had to do a lot of work on that.
[00:05:36] Jess: Mm. Yeah. Interesting. It's, I don't know, I'm sitting here thinking just because I don't necessarily know your story, and as someone that looks up to you in your business, you've been running your business longer than me.
[00:05:49] Jess: And anytime I've personally kind of come to our peer mastermind with my own Imposter Syndrome, you like always have the answer and like, you always seem so confident. I'm just curious, like, do you, what is your Imposter Syndrome hang-up? Like where does, where does that find? Where does that rear its ugly little head in your head or in your business?
[00:06:14] Cindy: Oh, I mean, it's one of those situations where, you know, we're always better at giving advice and living by that advice.
[00:06:23] Jess: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:23] Cindy: So I'm glad I come across as confident in having all my shit together, but I've struggled with Imposter Syndrome, literally my whole career. Especially in the early days, I was young in the roles that I held and I look young for my age.
[00:06:40] Cindy: Thank you to my genes. And so I always felt that people were kind of looking at me that way and not taking me seriously and also that shows up in how I approach my business. I actually want to be authentic and fun, and so I definitely have moments where I feel like, am I professional enough? Am I polished enough?
[00:07:07] Cindy: One of my goals, for myself in my business over the next year is to really get better at speaking on stages and booking more. I have like probably seven speaking arrangements this fall, two in person. And that's an area where I still feel major Imposter Syndrome. It's enough that I've invested in a training program to help me be a better speaker, but I've asked for feedback from people I'm like, you're fine.
[00:07:39] Cindy: I'm like, no, that's not helpful. So I think finding the balance for me around, you know, doing things scared and doing things imperfectly has been something that I've taught myself a lot over, over time.
[00:07:55] Jess: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's definitely a muscle that needs to be flexed and exercised because I don't think anyone's just, you know, born super, super, like confident.
[00:08:09] Jess: I will say growing up, my mom did a really great job. I have to say I've always been kind of confident and a leader. In fact, when I would go to school in the morning, instead of saying, I love you, she would say, be a leader. And it's something I say to my daughter on the way to school. I go, yeah. And so, and you know, that combined with me being the eldest child and just all sorts of things, the other things she would do.
[00:08:38] Jess: For me, as I mean my whole life, I was always beautiful. I was never pretty, I was always smart. I, she really focused on these nonphysical kinds of attributes. And, and so with that, I think for a lot of women who struggle with their appearance specifically, and not just, physically, but then that translate[s] into like how you show up, like online and in your voice and all these things.
[00:09:05] Jess: Like, I haven't struggled with that, but, and not to blame everything on my mother, that will be for a therapy appointment. The one thing that I think sometimes she, it was never like shoot for the stars. It was always “be practical”, and so I think sometimes I struggle with worthiness around and confidence specifically around money.
[00:09:29] Jess: That will probably come up a lot in these Confession podcast episodes, you know, this like don't ask for too much or like, don't demand too much like this worthiness component. So it's, it shows up everywhere in all ways, shapes and sizes and you know, to respond to the listeners' question around what do you do about that?
[00:09:56] Jess: I mean, I think that there is a time where looking outward and gaining inspiration. You know, there's no such thing, [there are] no original things, right? So like gaining inspiration, mimicking what other people that you like are doing, getting inspiration from that's all great. But then when you start to have those little thoughts of like, oh, they do it better than me or oh, there's so much a better storyteller.
[00:10:28] Jess: They're more clever. I really love their branding or blah, blah, blah blah. Then it's like, turn that off. Because I know for me in my business, I may or may not be the best, you know, copywriter, fundraiser, asker of money, but people really like my vibe and my personality. And it's a really clear distinction of someone who's like, way more buttoned up or from a really large multimillion-dollar organization. I'm not gonna be your vibe, you're not gonna be mine. And like, that's okay.
[00:10:59] Cindy: Bye. And I love that because I love a lot of things you just said, but one of the things actually that I wanna double down on is this idea of when to turn things off, when to shut out the outside world, because I do this, and I've been seeing this a lot lately where we're consuming, especially for people who are early days in my business or making a pivot or growing their business in some way, they start to consume everything.
[00:11:27] Cindy: Right. So I'll give you me as an example. I'm like, should I do VIP days? So now I'm like, oh, there's a VIP day conference and there's another VIP day conference and I'm gonna listen to this VIP day podcast. And we need to like survey the environment.
[00:11:45] Jess: Mm-hmm.
[00:11:46] Cindy: But there's a point where, and there's two points. One is there's a point where you gotta like, commit and actually do the deeper learning, not just like light stuff.
[00:11:55] Jess: Mm-hmm.
[00:11:55] Cindy: But then there's also a point where when you commit to the deeper learning, turn everything else off.
[00:12:00] Jess: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:01] Cindy: Just let it go because it's going, like, I love where I just have one process I need to follow and I follow it through to the end and no other ideas are relevant at that point.
[00:12:13] Jess: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:13] Cindy: And when you're building, when you're starting to build your business or taking a big leap, like do your research and as you said, turn the rest off and do it your way.
[00:12:26] Jess: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:27] Cindy: Because nothing else matters at that point.
[00:12:29] Jess: Mm-hmm. One thing I'll also say that I see out a lot in the nonprofit coaching and consulting world that to me screams Imposter Syndrome, but I don't think people are like noticing that way is they put out content that serves nonprofit coaches and consultants.
[00:12:47] Jess: And like, that's fine if that's who your audience is, but if your audience is still nonprofits, why are you putting out content that only like, nonprofit coaches and consultants are going to either want to consume comment on, engage with? It's just, I'm like, it's like wanting the validation for the engagement and the interaction, which I totally get. But like it's not cultivating the audience you're trying to build and that you're not going to get business from it.
[00:13:20] Jess: And it's just this like really slight tweak, but I've noticed everywhere. And what I'm like, what is up with that? I'm like, oh, it's that?
[00:13:31] Cindy: Yeah. So when I started consulting, I felt like there was this like group of the cool kids of consultants. And I was like, notice me, notice me! And I found that they were predominantly on Twitter at the time.
[00:13:48] Cindy: And I spent time there. And first of all, I don't like Twitter. I'm not really good at Twitter. I'm not great at social media period, but that's just not my jam. And, but I was like, I felt this obligation to be seen and this need to be validated by that crowd and exactly what you're saying.
[00:14:09] Cindy: Like my con, I was not engaging in conversations there that were for my audience. Those were conversations for the cool kids and yeah, they all communicated with themselves and they were all busy enough in their businesses that I don't even think they do a lot of business development. But I'm like, why am I spending my time trying to get noticed by people who are not my core audience?
[00:14:36] Jess: Yeah.
[00:14:37] Cindy: And, you know, there is something to be said about networks and referrals. I actually think referral-based business development is one of the best ways to grow your business. So you can have those relationships, but does it need to be like on a platform that's not aligned [with] your audience? And just the sake of being there is so that you can get noticed. So I'm, I totally went through that myself.
[00:15:02] Jess: Mm, interesting. Yeah, it's just been something I've been noticing and it's, listen like, I'm not a business coach for them, so I'm not gonna like help people of course, correct. But I have, I've just been very curious if it's a function of Imposter Syndrome that results in that type of content.
[00:15:24] Jess: So I mean, is there anything else for someone who's really struggling with how to combat Imposter Syndrome outside of like muting things, turning
[00:15:34] Cindy: Yeah.
[00:15:35] Jess: Off, once you've done your research or just anything else that you would advise people? I mean, I think one thing that's super healthy is like, therapy. Like we struggle with Imposter Syndrome all over the place.
[00:15:48] Cindy: Find yourself a coach. Yeah, find yourself a coach or a therapist. But I think that, so I think understanding what your Imposter Syndrome is like, how it shows up for you. As I said, like, whose voice do you have in your head? You have your mom's voice. We all have our parents' voices.
[00:16:04] Jess: Oh, wow.
[00:16:04] Cindy: But we also have our former boss's voices.
[00:16:08] Jess: Mm-hmm, and our spouses and everyone,
[00:16:11] Cindy: Our clients, oh, if you have a not-so-good client experience that sticks with you for a while. So it's actually very specific work where you have to unpack what that voice is telling you and why, and, and so that you can counteract that.
[00:16:28] Cindy: And then the other thing. I'll say is one of the things I hear a lot from people is, well, “someone's already done that.“
[00:16:37] Jess: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:37] Cindy: Right? Like, am I ever going to be as good as Joan Garry? I mean, she's killing it out there. And like, don't even try. And so, the more people there are out there who are doing work and successful doing the work that you wanna do means there's a proven market for it.
[00:17:00] Jess: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
[00:17:01] Cindy: And so there's a proven market and you have your own approach, your own authentic personality as we talked about before and those two combined is completely unique.
[00:17:13] Jess: Mm-hmm .
[00:17:14] Cindy: And so don't let that stop you. I hear that from so many people. Well, like, and so's doing it better. I'm like, that's okay it just means people are willing to pay for it.
[00:17:25] Jess: And it doesn't even mean better, right? Like I went to I know you're in Canada, so I don't know if you have this, but I went to a store called Smart and Final over the weekend because that was the closest grocery store. And I normally shop at a store called Trader Joe's, which has like, a very limited, mostly branded.
[00:17:40] Cindy: We all know Trader Joe's.
[00:17:43] Jess: I'm in Smart and Final, and I go to like the chip aisle and there [were] literally like, 152 different chip options. And so it's like, if someone just gave up, after, like there was one or two chip brands, like the world would be deprived of so many yummy snacks. And again, it just goes back to the fact that the reason why people are going to want to work with you is because of your skillset; your ability to execute all these things, right?
[00:18:10] Jess: But it's also your personality or your vibe, or like I personally have made a decision where I don't know, 90, 95% of my professional development. I wanna invest it in female BIPOC, badass women. And so, you know, if that is you, you're more likely to get my personal business than even someone in a different category.
[00:18:35] Cindy: Mm-hmm,
[00:18:36] Jess: So, you know, it's all a combination. And I think what you said about really noticing where that voice is, so you can be like, is this a real thought or is this that little Imposter Syndrome thought and I don't know. Do you have any tools for folks? Like what do you, what do you coach people on?
[00:18:54] Jess: Let's just get like a mini-lesson from you.
[00:18:56] Cindy: Yeah.
[00:18:57] Jess: Breathing, walking. What is it?
[00:18:59] Cindy: So it's actually, there's sort of two steps. So a multistep, but we'll start with like the short form. One is just bringing awareness. So catching that voice when you hear it so that, you know, it's there, right?
[00:19:12] Jess: Yeah.
[00:19:12] Cindy: Most of the time it's so automated in our brain that it feels like the truth and our brain actually uses it as a lens to see the world. So we have to bring awareness to it because it's hidden from us most days. So you can definitely do things like journaling, or just writing things down. Sometimes just keeping a little piece of paper where you're like, oh my goodness.
[00:19:35] Cindy: I thought I just had that thought. I'm gonna write it down. And then you wanna start to find evidence against it. So these beliefs are combined thoughts and emotions. So thoughts are logical, right? They're like, you know, put on your lawyer hat. This is like all the evidence, and so when we try and change belief.
[00:19:58] Cindy: We have to use, the thoughtful and the emotional. So we have to find the evidence that shows us we're wrong. So questions like, well, is this always true?
[00:20:07] Jess: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:07] Cindy: Or can I think of an example when it's not true?
[00:20:11] Jess: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:11] Cindy: Or where there's evidence that I was successful,
[00:20:15] Jess: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:15] Cindy: Or that I have these skills. But again, these should be very specific to your personal negative thoughts and beliefs. And then the emotional side, actually, one of the things that I find the most helpful is to imagine that someone you love and care about just said what you said to yourself, cuz we're terrible at self-talk. But, and I actually, I kind of like did this with my, my husband the other day where he said something that was really negative about himself.
[00:20:47] Cindy: And I said, what would you do if one of the kids said that?
[00:20:52] Jess: Mm-hmm mm-hmm mm-hmm
[00:20:53] Cindy: How would you feel? Like, what would you tell them?
[00:20:55] Jess: Mm-hmm
[00:20:56] Cindy: And that's the emotional side, which is like, oh my goodness. And that, you know, just totally changed his perspective.
[00:21:04] Jess: Yeah. I thought about it.
[00:21:06] Cindy: We need, we all have like a dominant thought versus emotion, like logic versus emotion, like I'm dominant logic. So start where you're where you may be dominant, but they always combine. They always are there together and you have to work on both of them and then you have to practice, right.
[00:21:25] Jess: Mm-hmm, yeah.
[00:21:25] Cindy: And there's no better way. The way our brains automate is through repetition. And so sometimes it's just getting really comfortable at doing things scared.
[00:21:35] Jess: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:35] Cindy: and doing it over and over and over again, so that your brain starts to change.
[00:21:41] Jess: Mm-hmm
[00:21:41] Cindy: Its shortcuts.
[00:21:42] Jess: I'm really curious because you are such the expert in coaching people through this, what your opinion or advice is on bringing in others. So like the way you did it for your husband in that example, like, because I feel like it's a delicate balance around getting validation in your business and then like too many cooks in the kitchen.
[00:22:04] Cindy: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:05] Jess: So I'm curious what you think about, you know, when you're having an Imposter Syndrome moment, reaching out to either a network of people who understand your business or your couple of loyal friends and being like, is this true or is this Imposter Syndrome?
[00:22:20] Cindy: Yeah.
[00:22:20] Jess: Or if you think it's more important to just really practice that skillset of coaching yourself?
[00:22:26] Cindy: Yeah. I think it's a combination. I think we need to learn how to self-coach, because at the end of the day, that's the only, you know, it's just us, but it's really, really hard sometimes to see things. And actually one of the things I did this past summer that was scary as hell for me was, I opened, I invited my husband into the things that I was working on personally with my coach, because I wanted his perspective to show me things that I couldn't see myself.
[00:22:57] Jess: Mmm.
[00:22:58] Cindy: And so I think, and I will say, like, we've had our own little sort of. our mastermind and our sort of have a retreat that we do together where we'll sit down and like, we will see things differently from each other.
[00:23:15] Jess: Totally.
[00:23:15] Cindy: And so I think we need that obviously as a coach, I think coaches are incredibly helpful. Also I think therapists are very valuable.
[00:23:24] Jess: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:24] Cindy: And I do think having a peer who understands and who you trust and who understands working with nonprofits and running a business.
[00:23:35] Jess: Yeah.
[00:23:35] Cindy: Is really, I know for me, it's been really helpful just to get it so quickly, you don't have to explain and all of that.
[00:23:44] Jess: Totally, totally. Well, I hope for everyone listening that, you know, has Imposter Syndrome, which is 100% of folks, because to say that you don't is a lie. I hope that this is helpful. And I just think that the key takeaways around, you know, muting where you need to mute, recognizing that inner dialogue, coaching yourself, learning how to coach yourself through it. That logical versus emotional balance pulling in a network or a small group of people who really get it is so important. I mean, that's really like what the foundation of this whole podcast is about. I hope it's been helpful.
[00:24:30] Cindy: Yeah. And we wanna hear from you just a reminder, please do leave us a message. We love having these conversations. I mean, Jess and I will talk forever and ever on all the things, but we want to make sure we are talking about the things you wanna hear about. So go visit confessionswithjessandcindy.com and click the link in the menu and you just leave a voice recording. All right, we'll see you next week.
[00:24:37] Jess: Bye.
[00:25:00] Cindy: Thank you again for listening to the Confessions podcast for nonprofit coaches and consultants. If you enjoyed today's episode, which I sure hope you did, you can enjoy your support in one of three ways.
[00:25:11] Jess: Number one, post the screenshot of this episode to your Instagram stories or LinkedIn profile and tag Cindy and us so we can repost you.
[00:25:20] Cindy: Number two, share this podcast with a fellow nonprofit culture consultant
[00:25:24] Jess: And number three, leave a positive review on Apple Podcast so we can continue to grow and reach new listeners.
[00:25:30] Cindy: And of course, make sure you subscribe so you can get the latest and greatest interviews as they drop every Thursday.
[00:25:37] Jess: And to our fellow nonprofit coaching and consulting friends, remember, we're an open book and here to answer your burning biz questions.
[00:25:45] Cindy: See you next time.