Leaning into the problem with Amy Milne

Written By cindy wagman

“So while you are important in that story, you are not the main character; your customer is. And the part you play as the professional is the guide. Because what we ultimately wanna do for our customers is we don't want to sell ourselves. We wanna sell the problem we solve; like we wanna sell the solution.” - Amy Milne

If you asked Cindy for the most game-changing book she’s read as a consultant, she will easily declare, “Building a Storybrand”. On today’s podcast, Amy Milne, the CEO of Beyond Fundraising, experienced nonprofit consultant, and recently certified as a StoryBrand guide joins the conversation. She talks about how to use the StoryBrand framework and how to make your customer the hero of the story. So if you’re feeling stuck or you’re experiencing a business slump then this episode is for you!

Highlights:

  1. The power of stories in business development and how leaning into the problem can help your clients get the help they need

  2. Being clear over clever so that your clients have a straightforward path forward

  3. Utilizing authentic storytelling to stand out as a consultant

Transcript

[00:00:00] Cindy: Welcome to the Confessions Podcast. I'm Cindy Wagman.

[00:00:03] Jess: And I'm Jess Campbell. We're two former in-house non-profit pros turned coaches and consultants to purpose driven organizations.

[00:00:12] Cindy: After years of building up our separate six figure businesses from scratch, we've thrown a lot of spaghetti at the wall and have lived to see what sticks.

[00:00:20] Jess: We're on a mission to help other nonprofit coaches and consultants looking to start or scale their own businesses past the six figure mark by pulling back the curtain.

[00:00:30] Cindy: Whether you're still working inside a nonprofit and thinking of one day going out on your own, or you've been running your consulting business for years, you understand that working with non-profits is just different. We're giving you access to the business leaders who serve non-profits as their clients. You know, the people who truly get it.

[00:00:52] Jess: No more gatekeeping, no more secrets. This podcast is going to give you an inside look at what running a successful non-profit coaching and consulting business looks like. Basically, we're asking people how much money they make, how they get paid, and what has and hasn't worked in their businesses.

[00:01:11] Cindy: Listen in as these leaders share their insights, their numbers, and the good, the bad, and the ugly when it comes to building a nonprofit coaching or consulting business. We're gonna empower you to make the power moves that give you the income and freedom you set out to create from day one.

[00:01:28] Jess: You ready? Let's go.

[00:01:31] Jess: Hey, Cindy.

[00:01:32] Cindy: Hey, Jess.

[00:01:34] Jess: I'm so excited for our conversation

[00:01:36] Cindy: today.

[00:01:37] Cindy: I know, but I feel like we say that for every conversation. Can we be like excited about everything?

[00:01:43] Jess: Yes, and the reason why is because we were lucky enough to get, I feel like a mini coaching session with the one and only Amy Milne, who's a CEO of Beyond Fundraising. She is a marketing and experience expert, but she came in and gave us a real deep dive on your favorite topic: StoryBrand.

[00:02:04] Cindy: Yeah. StoryBrand is a book and a framework that totally shifted my business and it's truly one of the most important business books I've ever read, and I recommend literally to everyone. And so when my friend Amy, who also is an experienced nonprofit consultant, told me that she was getting certified as a StoryBrand guide. I was like, 'Yo, we have to have her on the podcast!' And yeah. We really talk about the framework, but also like where people kind of get stuck and how the framework can help them attract their clients and make money.

[00:02:50] Jess: Yeah, I mean, if you all really wanna hear Cindy geek out for an episode, like this is the episode for you. I feel like she could literally talk about this topic or ever and ever, but I think we did a really great job of chatting with Amy and giving real life examples of how you all can apply this framework into your business and make some just really subtle but important tweaks to your messaging so that you are attracting, calling in, and then asking for the sale on an ongoing consistent basis.

[00:03:24] Cindy: Yeah. And like by geek out you mean like won't shut up and talk over everyone then? Yes. I apologize in advance because it is a topic that I get very fired up on and I do steal some of Jess's questions and jump in a little bit more than usual. So yeah, you get me on my worst behavior. So here's that.

[00:03:49] Jess: Well, if anyone's wondering what they're getting for Christmas, it's definitely the StoryBrand book from Cindy. Yes. Without further ado, enjoy this episode and let us know what you think and what your takeaways are. We'd love to hear from you.

[00:04:03] Cindy: Enjoy!

[00:04:04] Cindy: Amy, welcome to the podcast.

[00:04:07] Amy: Hi. So excited to be here!

[00:04:09] Amy: I'm

[00:04:09] Cindy: so excited for this conversation. Um, you wear so many hats, but I'm going to talk about, or sort of get us started on the conversation of StoryBrand. Because this is, I would say, life changing or business changing resources. When I read the StoryBrand book and listened to it, I had the audio and paper copy.

[00:04:37] Cindy: Nice.

[00:04:37] Cindy: It shifted things for me in my business and we wanna talk about that. So I want us to get started because I think so many people I speak to, so many consultants, they get really uncomfortable with selling themselves. And they feel like it's personal, like they have to talk about their credentials and why they're the right person to work with.

[00:05:05] Cindy: And what I love about the StoryBrand framework is it kind of shifts that. And so let's talk, let's get started with one of the core premises of this framework, which is you are the guide, Your customer is the hero". Tell us

[00:05:21] Amy: about that.

[00:05:22] Amy: Yeah, we're going, we're diving right in. So for those of you don't know what StoryBrand is, 'cause we're not, you're not a super fan just yet is. I know where you are, and I know where I am. So, Donald Miller is a phenomenal marketer. Started a company years ago, turned it into like a $20 billion, you know, small business marketing business. And he created what he calls StoryBrand and it's really writing your brand script for your small business.

[00:05:53] Amy: So if you haven't, we're really interesting, but so is he. I decided a year or so ago that I was going to be certified and become a StoryBrand certified guide. So little bit of history there. Years ago I was actually sitting in my hot tub in my backyard in Toronto, and I was, as I like to do, and I read business books.

[00:06:16] Amy: Anyways, it's another story, but that is what I do. And so I was reading Donald's book and I literally page by page by page, I was like, "Every non-profit needs to read this!" Because what it is basically is a very simple framework that gives you a formula that works in order to tell your story in a way that actually matters to your customer.

[00:06:47] Amy: So what Cindy talked about in terms of like being the guide. So what a lot of us do is we love to talk about ourselves. "Hi, I'm Amy Milne and I live here. I have kids, blah blah. And I'm a superstar and this." And then people are like, "Great, but what can you do for me?" And we're so, you know, we're so stuck in this. We've gotta tell everybody who we are and what we do and how good we are in the beginning, and it's like people don't care. People are coming like they actually don't care. And I'm being harsh, but it's true. They don't care. They are coming and looking for you and what you can do to solve their problem.

[00:07:23] Amy: What we tend to do is, you know, tell everybody about ourselves, but we haven't yet told our customer that's coming to us what we can do for them. So the formula or the brand script that we can help you write or there's a great online tool for it, is it sets your customer up to be the hero of the story.

[00:07:46] Amy: So while you are important in that story, you are not the main character; your customer is. And the part you play as the professional is the guide. Because what we ultimately wanna do for our customers is we don't wanna sell ourselves. We wanna sell the problem we solve, like we wanna sell the solution.

[00:08:09] Amy: They're coming to us, their non-profit is "oh my gosh, we can't raise enough money" or this like, "last campaign fell flat" or like, "we don't know how to write our last end of year appeal". Well, it's not working 'cause you're probably telling them all of the amazing work you're doing, which is important, but your customer doesn't care about that right away.

[00:08:29] Amy: They do care, in part way through the story, but they don't write off the bat. And so it's super important that we set our customers up right from the beginning as the hero and then we set ourselves up as the guide. Really long answer there, Cindy, but you know, pick what you want outta that and let's, you know, jump into other bits.

[00:08:49] Jess: Okay. That's so super helpful. Thank you for walking us through that framework to become super fans of framework. I just have to Google because Cindy is like the ultimate super fan. And Donald Miller, if you ever listen, we're coming for you. Not that you're a not amazing Amy, but like, I think that would be like Cindy meeting Beyonce or something.

[00:09:13] Amy: I was supposed to be at his place last week, but I couldn't go to Nashville, so I'm like, "Where is that?" To hang out with him and Dr. JJ. Like would be like, Beyonce.

[00:09:24] Cindy: It's on my list next year. It's on my list.

[00:09:27] Jess: So I wanna reframe this a little bit because the folks listening in are people who used to be in the nonprofit space but are now currently running their own small businesses.

[00:09:37] Jess: And I know as someone that was a fundraiser for many, many, many years, and now I've run a consulting company for the last six. It was way easier to raise millions of dollars than it is to ask someone to pay me 5,000, 10,000, whatever, thousand dollars, to work in my business.

[00:09:56] Jess: And so for folks listening in, can you maybe give some examples of what that pain problem might be for a fellow nonprofit coach or consultant listening to this. So they can just really, let's make them the hero of this story, right? Let's put ourselves in their shoes, our own shoes. Like I feel like I'm in like some weird meta universe right now. So that for anyone who's just really unfamiliar, this is the first time they're crossing StoryBrand. They can identify on a personal level with what we're talking about.

[00:10:31] Amy: So just to make sure that I'm clear, so the nonprofit, so I'm a consultant. I am myself as well, just, I tend to specialize more in marketing and events. And I know some of your, the consultants listening are more sort of generalized or could be doing some of the bigger stuff.

[00:10:47] Amy: So the non-profit is your customer. The non-profit organization is coming to hire you and the reason that they're likely coming to hire you, I would say probably the number one is that they don't have the internal resource or the internal knowledge that you do. So if you are looking at like, now I wanna StoryBrand, everybody's like websites and stuff, and literally I StoryBrand commercials and stuff. But you need to frame yourself in a way that when the nonprofit customers, you're essentially a be-to-be.

[00:11:22] Amy: So you may or may not be marketing to the person that finds you because there's likely other decision makers. Again, it depends obviously on the size of the organization because I know that some consultants listening could be doing big stuff and little stuff they could, depending on who hires them. But chances are it's because they're lacking the internal resource.

[00:11:44] Amy: And so you really, you know, it could be as simple as, you know, "You don't have the internal knowledge? Book me now!" Like, it's literally that simple. And I think when people jump into StoryBrand and they start to, you know, work on their brand script, they literally don't understand that it is that easy.

[00:12:05] Amy: I am a nonprofit consultant and I can help you do this. You need a grant written? I can write it for you. What happens is we tend, and I'm, you know, when I do this, I'm always looking at sort of what the, because there's a framework to also working on your website in terms of how you wire frame it. Because people have, like, you have seconds when people land on your website to, you know, get them to read further or hit that, you know. And if you don't, tip number one, if you don't have a book a call now button in your top right hand corner. You, if you get nothing else out of this conversation, add a book now call button in the top right corner and write under your tagline and write under your next tagline and write under your next.

[00:12:50] Amy: You need to ask, continually ask people for the sale. Whether it's a book now, a buy now, what have you. Because that's why you're in business. You're in business to sell yourself. So make it easy. Everything about what we do when we work with businesses, consultants, big non-profits, little guys in our own consultancy is we're literally helping you make more money. And in that it's because we're then able to allow the customer, which is your non-profit, buy from you, or learn more, and how easy is that?

[00:13:26] Amy: And so in the framework as well, it's, you know, give them a direction, three steps, not a 150, three. Hit the book now. Call button. Like show them what they're gonna expect. Right? Like book a call now, meet with me, love me, make millions. Like yes, there's a trillion steps in between. And be like, Oh my God, it can't be that easy. I promise you, it is.

[00:13:49] Cindy: Okay, I'm gonna steal Jess's question. I'm sorry. 'Cause I have another question I was gonna ask, but hers I actually think is more natural of a question to follow. Which is, sorry Jess, clear over clever. And actually one of the places I learned that was from Donald Miller.

[00:14:15] Cindy: You just talked about a really simplified, and I would think a lot of consultants get uncomfortable with simplifying their work. And in fact, I know I work with consultants in helping them build their business and they always struggle with, "well, what I do is so customized and so unique and special and so my process that I can't make it simple."

[00:14:41] Cindy: Or they wanna be really, really clever. There are people who nail the clever, that's still clear, but I myself have been guilty of trying to be clever and lost the clarity. So talk to us about simplicity and clarity and what that allows in terms of people actually moving forward.

[00:15:05] Amy: For sure. So you know, I've listened to a couple of your podcasts and guests and where we talk about authenticity and that is so important. And so if your clever matches who you are and the product you're selling and is authentic to you, there are places to use that as you build the framework to your website, as you build your sales emails, things like that.

[00:15:33] Amy: Like you need to let your personality shine through. So I just, I wanna make sure as people start to understand this framework or what your personality still matters, like you matter in your business. But the customer at first is not buying you first. They're buying a solution to their problem.

[00:15:52] Amy: And so if you hide the problem in cleverness, you've muddled it up for them and they no longer know what you can do to help them. So like, how you use your language. I mean, the non-profit sector, we know they can be really boring. But if you're not boring, don't be boring. Like you don't have to be boring. Because the non-profit sector needs so much more fun in it anyways, and I'm hoping this is what we're all here to do and this is what I believe this podcast is about to do, and this whole army of all of us that are in the world right now.

[00:16:28] Amy: And so, the thing is, is you are in business to make money for yourself. It is nice, yes. We want to make money for our charities. Just like if we were a consultant for Ford and we wanted to help them sell more cars, winning the consultants making money, and Ford selling more cars.

[00:16:47] Amy: We're in the business to help non-profits, which all make profit. They just bank differently at the end of the day so that we need to erase. We are in the business to make money. How they spend their money is just different. Not everybody's frugal, not everybody, whatever. So it's just we need to, you know, but we have to make sure that the story we're telling is about our customer and then as we, you know, we, they see themselves in it.

[00:17:15] Amy: We identify the problem they're having, then we get to say, "Oh my God, I hear you and I have the skills to help you." So, however you want to say that in a clear or clever or your personality, just make sure you're actually saying it. Cause if you start to look at some marketing, you know, as you become, and I know Cindy, I'm probably, you're probably very similar to me.

[00:17:39] Amy: You look at stuff and you're like, "I don't know what that says." Because we go to like such a place of simplicity. It's like, do they fold laundry? Are they gonna help us make money? What do they do? It's a matter of like, don't lose yourself, but don't make it harder than it needs to be. Because when someone lands on your website, because that's where they're going to find you first, essentially, or even your LinkedIn, and that also can be written similarly.

[00:18:05] Amy: Like, you know, "You find it tough these days to raise more money. We understand that and we're here to help you." That in itself right there has like basically said, And they're like, "Oh my God, she gets it" or "holy cow, he hears me". So they have to see themselves in it. Still be fun and have personality, but just make it simple.

[00:18:28] Cindy: So my understanding is that in order for us, and I'm gonna borrow a language that maybe I don't have as much experience with as you do, but we kind of need to open a story loop, right? The problem is like, why am I invested in this story? Why am I invested? And so the problem, I often lead with the problem like, "This is what you're struggling with, and then I get it."

[00:18:59] Cindy: But when I work with other consultants, I hear them say the same thing a lot, which is they're not comfortable focusing on the problem. They wanna be positive, they wanna focus on opportunity. And so I'd love for you to talk a little bit about what's actually happening. Even in our brains, or as we think about and relate to the world around us, like why do we need to start with problems and or do we need to start with problems?

[00:19:32] Amy: "Problem", it almost like it has a negative connotation. Every day we're trying to, like, your feet are cold? You put on socks. Your arms are cold? You put on a sweater. You know and I'm like living there 'cause it's like I, where I live right now in Blue Mountain, we're about to have snow warnings tonight.

[00:19:50] Cindy: Jess in California and she's like turning on her air conditioning.

[00:19:54] Jess: It's supposed to be 92 degrees to that here.

[00:19:57] Amy: Yeah, we're looking at minus five first snow warning. So we're constantly, like our back brain is there, like our lower brain is there to keep us safe, right? Like it's there to like fight or flight.

[00:20:13] Amy: Can I get food from that? Can I get shelter? That kind of thing. And so we're constantly looking to keep ourselves safe, which is the same in marketing to a certain extent, right? Like, don't put us out there and not let us be eaten. But we have to see ourselves in it.

[00:20:34] Amy: And if the only reason someone needs you is because they have a problem, so it's not negative. You're the sweater. Right, Like you are the wine in the glass, like they've got an empty glass, they need to fill it. Like problem isn't negative. That is why we're in business. We are selling a solution to a problem.

[00:20:57] Amy: So if your customer doesn't have a problem, they have no need for you. If they're not stuck on something. And so if they come to your website and they're like, "You know, Jess and Cindy are beautiful and amazing, and they're smart." Great. I think they're smart and they're wonderful. Awesome. But what next, right?

[00:21:19] Amy: So it needs to be, "Oh my gosh, I need to see myself. So you talk about a story." So we watch movies, right? And this is where a lot of this story like, it comes from in concept is that you have a character, so you have Katniss. Let's talk, you know, Hunger Games. So Katniss is the main character and Katniss needs to save her village or everyone will die.

[00:21:45] Amy: So Katniss is out there and she's trying to save the world and things are getting thrown at her, and people are trying to get her out. Well, in order for her to save the world, she needs to meet a guide, right? Like she needs to meet someone. So Hamish pops in and so he's there and he's there to, to help her out and show her the way.

[00:22:02] Amy: And you know, and he's not drunk. He's really a great guide. And so he's there, and he's there to say, like, "I've been there before." And he's been a winner, right? He's got it and he's got a plan for her. Like, you do this, you strategically do this. "You do 1, 2, 3, and you will be, you know, you'll be successful and if you go out there and do this, you'll win the day. If you don't go out there and do this, you'll lose the day and your village will be like wiped out." That is literally the formula for every movie. If you think about it, there's people trying to take, but there is a person that you see and as you, if you adopt and fall in love with this framework, as much as we have movies will be ruined for you for life.

[00:22:43] Amy: These will be like, Oh, they're so and so, and this person's trying to get them. They're gonna grow here, but there's the guide. And like, if they win the day, the, you know, aspirational goals, they see success. And if they don't win the day, then they don't survive. And so it's the same way in business.

[00:23:01] Amy: You're the character. You are that you, your customer is the character. You are the guide who's gonna help them solve their problem. You're gonna give them a really easy, simple plan. You're gonna tell them they need to do it now. You're gonna show them what success looks like. You're gonna say, "Hey, if you work with me, this is what your world is gonna look like. Butterflies and dollars and donors and money, and it's gonna be great. You don't work with me, you're not gonna raise money. And people are gonna starve."

[00:23:27] Amy: Like you're gonna use maybe nicer words than that, but at the same time, that's how it goes. And so people can see themselves through that. Like, "Oh, so if I work with Amy, she's gonna help me with this and here is the plus and then here is the minus and here is the outcome."

[00:23:47] Amy: I get that 'cause it's our brain's work. Our brains work in story. Well we're, we're talking right now and we're telling stories together. And so it's been around forever and it's how our brain consumes it. And one of the things you know, when we do watch movies in TV, often if we're engrossed in something in that story, our brains are actually super focused.

[00:24:10] Amy: Like, if you're really engaged in a movie, that's your focus for that hour or that great TV show or what have you. Like, you know, years ago for us it was like, "Oh my God, I got to the end of the show and I gotta go back to Blockbuster. Get the next episode." I couldn't just press play on the next, 'cause we just, we wanna see what's happening next. And it's kind of the same way in our marketing, right? But if we don't solve someone's problem and we are not really clear about it, then there is no way they're gonna do business with us.

[00:24:41] Jess: Hey Amy, we're back with Rapid Fire Questions. Are you ready to play?

[00:24:45] Amy: I am so ready.

[00:24:47] Jess: Okay. I know that you live in Canada and it can get quite cold, so where is your favorite place to fly when you're needing to thaw out a little bit?

[00:25:00] Amy: I am a massive fan of the South. We have a resort in Mexico that we like to call ours, but it is not, but we have it. So Mexico is a favorite place. And last year, Turks and KOs kind of took top of the list.

[00:25:18] Jess: Amazing. What part of Mexico do you guys like to go to?

[00:25:21] Amy: We like to go to the very end. We like the Mayan Riviera.

[00:25:24] Jess: Okay, cool! Pretty. So I know that you have a lot of event production experience. What would you say is the most memorable thing that really stood out to you that now you replicate at every event you ever produce?

[00:25:42] Amy: Oh, that's a good one. There's so many. I would say on a technical side, a super easy and efficient check-in process when people arrive on site. From an experience, we want people to be able to be a part of it. And I would say from an emotional standpoint, just to like, smile and see people do things outside their comfort zone. But for people to arrive and know where to go.

[00:26:11] Jess: That's really helpful off the beginning, especially. What's your favorite movie?

[00:26:17] Amy: It would be, well, there's a couple, but Sweet Home Alabama. Totally. It's at the top of [list]. I watched it a ridiculous amount of times. And yes, I'm not embarrassed in the least to say that that is at the top of the list.

[00:26:36] Jess: I mean, who doesn't live love a little romcom love story, right? And for our last—

[00:26:43] Cindy: Can I ask a question? 'Cause you asked about going south, but I wanna know what your favorite winter, cause you live, like a little further north than like most of us in Toronto. What's your favorite winter activity?

[00:26:57] Amy: Uh, well I live on a ski hill. I look at it, it's right out my window and my favorite activity is (inaudible) .

[00:27:05] Cindy: Cool.

[00:27:06] Jess: Yeah. And my last and final question is, what is your least favorite word?

[00:27:13] Amy: Oh, that's a good one. "Can't."

[00:27:19] Jess: Oh, that actually gives me like childhood memory. Yep. And I had parents that were very like, "can't, is not in the vocabulary". And, yep.

[00:27:31] Amy: They can't, can't both in like life, it's when you go kid and can't as in like business. It's not a matter of can't. Everything is possible. It's a matter of will or won't.

[00:27:41] Jess: There we go.

[00:27:42] Amy: So "can't" is not an option.

[00:27:44] Jess: Awesome. Thanks for playing Amy.

[00:27:46] Amy: Thanks for asking.

[00:27:50] Jess: So Amy, I'm sitting here thinking if I'm a non-profit coach or consultant wanting to use the StoryBrand framework in my business, I want an example. So I'm curious if you would be so willing to share your StoryBrand or Cindy, you raving fan, you. If you would mind sharing yours, just to give the listeners an example as it applies to us and our audience of nonprofit clients.

[00:28:20] Cindy: I'm gonna pull mine up. I'm happy to share it. Well, I feel like, Amy, you're also pulling up some examples. Yeah, like I can tell you. I mean, first of all, go to my website, thegoodpartnership.com because before Amy was a guide, I actually hired a different guide to help me build ours.

[00:28:42] Cindy: There's so many examples in the book, but hold on, I'm actually gonna pull up.

[00:28:49] Amy: Yeah, as I shared with you ladies when I first started, we're in the midst of getting our StoryBrand, like our brand script ready to roll. We've been busy with everybody else's, with our other customers, and so I do have a couple of customer examples.

[00:29:04] Amy: I also have one of our other businesses, that I can share as well that isn't non-profit, but it tells a story. And then you can actually go to that website and see it play out. But if you wanna rejoin.

[00:29:19] Cindy: I found mine, yeah. So it's a big document. Just to be clear, I'm not gonna go through everything because there's a lot, like, there's seven I think, stages in this brand script, but I'm gonna focus on the character and the problem. So most people are familiar with like an avatar in marketing. And so we have our avatar, which is a executive director of a small, but mighty nonprofit organization who wants to have an impact on the world. And then there's three levels of problems.

[00:29:53] Cindy: There's the external problem, which is kinda like what's getting in their way. And for that, we said they wear too many hats and they don't have expertise in a lot of things that they're responsible for. They know they need to raise money, but they don't know how they wanna raise money without actually doing the work of fundraising. And then they have the internal problem, which is how does it make them feel? And so fundraising makes them feel icky or uncomfortable. They're reluctant to fundraise because it feels unattainable, or they're just overwhelmed. They focus on the wrong things and end up getting burned out, losing passion, and feeling like a failure.

[00:30:32] Cindy: And then the philosophical problem is why is that wrong? And so we wrote, "You don't have to suffer for doing this important work. The world needs your non-profit and it shouldn't be at risk because you don't know how to fundraise." So that's how we defined the problem. Then they meet the guide, that's our organization and there's a bunch in there including like the plan and call to action.

[00:30:56] Cindy: But then we looked at what success looks like, right? So you're confident that your nonprofit's gonna make it. Can you leave work at the office? You're raising money. You don't do tasks you hate. Your nonprofit has longevity and you're building a legacy. And you left the world a better place than you found it. But one of the other things, again, you'll see this on our website, is we really focused in on the stress of raising money and how that keeps people up at night. And so that's one of the things we talk about is like this sort of three step thing is like, book a call, raise more money, sleep better at night. And so yeah, that's a snippet of our transcript.

[00:31:45] Amy: Which is great. And what you've done there too, and you wanna make sure also when you're writing your marketing message, that you don't open too many story loops. So, when you spoke, when you asked the question a little bit earlier in terms of like consultants think we still have so many problems, which we do. But when you're picking the problem you wanna solve, pick the one that people come to you the most often.

[00:32:12] Amy: So, Cindy, I'm really stressed out because I can't seem to make money in fourth quarter. If that's the thing, you know, we can't get donors in fourth quarter. If that's what you're hearing, that's just like a wild example. If that's something that you're hearing. For most of your customers, then that's what you, that's gonna be the number one problem you solve.

[00:32:35] Amy: It doesn't mean that down your website or in other, like, links to other pages in your website that you're not going to solve other problems. Like, you might also be a grant writer. You might also, you know, run events. You might also do all these other things, but you want to narrow down on the one story loop you wanna open and then you can tell more.

[00:32:58] Amy: Because that's what happens a lot of the time when we get started when you pointed it out earlier. And a lot of people get stuck in the, "But I do so many things!" It's like, pick the one thing that your customer is often coming to you the most for, get that nailed down and then figure out the rest.

[00:33:16] Amy: It doesn't mean that you can't wear many hats, but you can't spit all that out in a marketing message for people to clearly understand it and not get confused. You know, and what you picked there was stress. You focused on stress. You didn't go from like stressed out to sore feet from standing too long at a gift show. Right. Like you picked stress and you kept stress through your story. And that's important.

[00:33:47] Cindy: Yep. And like, one of the things I know other people struggle with, that we struggle with too, is like we have different products and services under our work. And so it was like stepping back and like, what's that StoryBrand for the whole thing.

[00:34:04] Cindy: But then we kind of have like mini StoryBrands or is

[00:34:07] Amy: Well they write brand scripts for everything.

[00:34:09] Cindy: Yeah.

[00:34:09] Amy: Like what happens is you, you essentially write brand scripts and marketing message for messages for all of your products. What you wanna do on your landing page when you're, when you're looking at it, is making it as simple and as clear and it's easy for people to do business with you. Like, you want it to be easy 'cause our brains, and one of the things I'm more than happy to offer your, your listeners is that, you know, we can do a five, like literally a five minute website scan of any of your consultants. They can give me a call, they can reach out and I'll literally work with them five minutes free.

[00:34:46] Amy: Here are the things that are missing. I don't know what you do. Go fix this. And like literally, you'd be amazed at how quickly some things can change and how, you know, building your email list and things like that will start to happen. Because it's, you know, once you get people there, and the thing is, is not everybody's gonna wanna do business with you the minute they get there. Right? They're gonna be like, "Oh, this is great. I see myself in the story. They have services." So then, what do you need to do if someone's not booking a call right away? Well then that's where we wanna talk about, you know, your transitional call to action. So where, how are people learning more about you?

[00:35:18] Amy: How are you getting their email address so you can start to build a relationship with them? So you know, what is your lead generator? So what is your, you know, your downloadable on your website that then says, "Hey, five ways for your nonprofit to win big at the holiday season." "Oh my God. I wanna know that!" They have to put in their email address, give it away for free.

[00:35:39] Amy: Be a generous brand. But don't forget to get the email address. But not everybody's going to book a call in that moment. But if you're clear and they understand and then they're engaged and they're like, Okay, I wanna learn more about what these, what this consultant's about.

[00:35:53] Jess: Sorry, I have a question. I'm gonna say it before you steal it from me.

[00:35:58] Cindy: I won't steal it, I promise!

[00:35:59] Jess: Just kidding. One of the things that I, or lack of things that I see in general from nonprofit coaches and consultants, is storytelling in general. And I'm just curious if either of you have any advice or methods of collecting. I always teach people, my clients or other non-profit coaches and consultants that stories of everyday things are what keep us relatable.

[00:36:32] Jess: And so I talk about what might sound super boring. It's nothing like rockets going to the moon or anything, it's like about my laundry or about like my kid throwing up or whatever. But people, I see it all the time. They just, whether it's their post on LinkedIn or it's a blog or it's their email, there's literally no story in it.

[00:36:52] Jess: And I'm curious how you would advise someone that you come across their materials and they just don't know where to get started. Maybe they don't know where to look to collect those stories. Maybe not everyone is a born storyteller and so they have to work a little bit harder. And so how do you kind of ignite that practice knowing that stories are the most effective way to market across all industries?

[00:37:17] Amy: Yeah. Great, great insight. And I think a couple of points there. When you first go into the non-profit sector, and I remember, cause I used to be an in-house at sick kids and I went in, I was like, "Oh my God, there's so much intelligence in there, I'm not gonna be able to do a thing."

[00:37:31] Amy: And then I went in and I was like, "Oh, I could totally do some work here." But the thing was is that I think what happens sometimes with our non-profits which makes the consultant nervous is their stories are rich, right? Their stories are transformational. And so we sort of, and I'll say it for myself, you sort of sit back and go like, "Oh my gosh, I'm not like, I'm not saving lives and animals and researching and all of this."

[00:37:59] Amy: But the thing is, is that those are their stories and their stories matter sometimes, well, most of the time why non-profits need this is they're telling too many stories and they're not telling me how I can interact or why my donations matter or what have you. And so I think it can sometimes be intimidation.

[00:38:15] Amy: And I also think when I look at the sector, I wrote the word down like stiff because this sector itself is seen often is like stiff. And what I love about what you ladies are doing and what I'm hopefully doing from my corner of the woods is that we're really trying to elevate and change the industry to add some spark and ignite the humanity of it.

[00:38:42] Amy: Not just the humanity of the outcome of dollars raise, but the humans that are in it and not all of us. Stiff and in suits and ties, like, right? Like I find sometimes like non-profits, have you not looked like the CEOs at most banks wear jeans to work? Like, it's one of those things where I think, you know, and I know when I started my consultancy, I would go to these meetings and I couldn't decide if I should dress like them or dress like me.

[00:39:09] Amy: And I find that the non-profit sector can be in, at least for me, was intimidating in the sense of like, "Oh, well they're so buttoned down and I'm not buttoned down at all. But I'm really good at my job." And so I really struggled with, am I trying to be them or am I trying to be me? And I think even in your question, Jess, it's like, am I nervous to tell my story because their story is bigger? But your story matters because your story is going to help them be better be stronger, make more, do more.

[00:39:40] Amy: And well stiff works like, well, you know, button down and tight, like all that kind of, that's one way of doing business, but it's not the only way. And it's also not the only way to tell a story, right? There are like hardcore business books and then there are like light and fluffy, right?

[00:39:57] Amy: Like everything is figureoutable. Like that's one topic versus good to great, right? Like how those two books are written and by the authors are very different. And so I think it's just a matter of what I would encourage people to do is. It's truly, back to the word, authentic. Like be authentic and tell your story the way you want it so you attract the customers you wanna work with.

[00:40:20] Amy: You know, I was listening to your podcast from a couple of weeks ago where you were talking about like firing clients and things like that. Well, if you're authentic to who you are and the customer you want to service to, because of who your personality is, then you're gonna probably be in less situations like that because the people that are coming to you and that resonate with your story when you tell it properly, you're gonna find your people.

[00:40:46] Cindy: Hm. One of the things that I've been working a lot on is my storytelling. 'Cause I get the StoryBrand framework and for my business, but I'm building in more storytelling in my teaching, I would say. Like Jess and I have had lots of very public conversations about emails. I would say sometimes I tell stories by email, but sometimes I don't. And it works for me and that's fine.

[00:41:09] Cindy: But when I'm doing webinars or speaking at conferences, which I happen to have like a ton of those coming up, I'm really focusing on what are the stories I can tell about my experience that puts the audience in my shoes, or where are we wearing the same shoes? Because I know that that's the relatable piece, and that's how I get people, paying attention and engaging and relating to the work. And so just sort of to circle back to the question, Jess. I think telling stories and building that storytelling capacity is so critical, and it's finding like where those stories fit in with what you do.

[00:42:03] Cindy: I'm gonna reference, another book that I also really love, 'cause I've thought about this a couple times during this conversation, which is called Captivate by Vanessa Van Edwards, and it talks about how people connect with people. And part of that is storytelling, but there's also a lot of other really cool tools.

[00:42:24] Cindy: And what you said earlier, Jess, about like, you tell stories about your day to day life and your family and stuff like that. Those stories also have a really important role to play in building like and trust with your audience. And people are much more likely to wanna work with you when they have some stuff in common with you, and we don't know that until we share those stories and talk about our lives.

[00:42:49] Cindy: So anyways, it's kind of a tangent, but I highly recommend that up to also a game changer.

[00:42:55] Jess: Yeah, I mean.

[00:42:56] Amy: Oh, go ahead Jess. No, go ahead Jess.

[00:42:58] Jess: Well, I was just gonna say, I think that like circles back to the start of our conversation where we were talking about clear over clever. And you know, infusing your personality and what works for you and like, you know, whether in your top right corner you have something like by now versus in my top right corner, I might have something like save your seat or something. And, the stories I might tell about my everyday life are maybe different than Amy, different than yours, or Cindy's yours.

[00:43:32] Jess: It's all good. And I think that when you do story tell, the point is how you tell those stories and doing the storytelling is what is going to, what I'm hearing y'all say is it's like the tier two. Like number one tier is identify the problem because that is what is going to get people to buy in. But then the second part of that equation is your vibe and your style, because you know there's a bajillion people out there that teach non-profits and we're all in the fundraising space, how to raise more money. Right? But like my style is very different than yours, Amy's, which is different than yours Cindy. And you know, people, I had someone come to me from my website the other day and she was like, "This looks a little funky, but I'm into it and I wanna know like how I can work with you."

[00:44:23] Cindy: I mean, I get that funky feeling from you, Jess. I love it.

[00:44:27] Jess: Funky is the word I'm going for, but, um, that sounds like a stinky cheese.

[00:44:33] Cindy: No, but you are you and you are attracting the people you wanna work with by putting yourself out there authentically. But that not at the expense of understanding their problems, right? And that's the thing is like you're getting them interested because of the problem. And then they're like, "Oh, and she looks super fun." So, which you do, I think you're fun.

[00:45:01] Amy: Totally. And I think too, like Cindy, when you talk about speaking and when you know non-profit consultants and coaches are speaking, if you're out there speaking and hoping that you're also going to get business out of it, which should be your goal. You need to tell stories, but you also need to make sure your customer sees in those stories that you can solve the problem. So the people sitting in that room are your customers. So traditionally, what a lot of us do is we'll get up there and we'll talk about ourselves. So everything we just talked about was like, don't talk about ourselves first.

[00:45:36] Amy: Nobody gives a shit about your newsletter. Everybody cares about their own problems, right? But then we get up on stage and we're like, "Hi, I'm Amy Milne and I've been in the business for 30 years" and we've just given our legacy story. And people are like, "Great. So Amy's done it, so maybe I can't." So versus like, "Hey everybody, great to see you today. Fundraising is tough these days, isn't it? Well, I'm here to show you that I understand, and I'm here to give you some tips on how it doesn't need to be so hard." Versus they've read your bio, they've, you know, someone's introduced you already. You don't need, everybody picks their own style, but it is amazing, you know, and I've tested both to just jump in and instead of making it about you, you make it about them.

[00:46:20] Amy: And now they're engaged. Right? Like it's, it's, you need people engaged in those stories and, and you know, when you stand up there and you're like, "Hey, I'm Cindy", you're telling your story. You're not telling, they're sitting there listening because they wanna learn how you can help them do different things.

[00:46:37] Amy: So just make sure like you're in sales, it's what you're doing as a consultant. Like, you know, you become relatable when you talk about how you fold your laundry. And you might wanna share a tip like, "Jess, maybe I need to watch to see how you fold your laundry." Because like, I'm gonna learn a new tip or trick. Like that stuff makes you human. But in business we want to make money. That is why we are doing it and we shouldn't be bashful about it just because we're in the non-profit sector. Yeah.

[00:47:08] Cindy: Amy, you're here. We could talk all day, but we don't have all day. But I think that's a really great point to end on, which is like, also by us making money, we are solving people's problems. I think just, you know, coming back to that, what's the hook? Why do people care? Because they're looking for solutions. They're not looking for friends, sadly. I mean, I'm looking for friends, but.

[00:47:37] Amy: Let's be friends.

[00:47:39] Cindy: We are friends. I love both of you. So on that, Amy, where can our listeners connect with you and, learn more about what you're doing?

[00:47:50] Amy: Do I not get the rapid fire questions? I was really excited for those.

[00:47:53] Cindy: You are gonna get the rapid fire questions. They're gonna come after they have already been taken place when we edit this.

[00:48:00] Amy: Got it. Okay. I was like waiting. People can find me on Instagram @startbeyond. You can find me online on my website, don't judge it yet. At startingbeyond.com and if you're looking for tips or seeing how often it snows in Blue Mountain or what color the leaves are, you can find me at @milneamyr are on Instagram as well.

[00:48:25] Cindy: Awesome. Thank you so much.

[00:48:28] Jess: Thanks for being here, Amy. That was really helpful.

[00:48:30] Amy: Oh, well thanks for having me. It's a pleasure.

[00:48:35] Cindy: Thank you again for listening to the Confessions podcast for nonprofit coaches and consultants. If you enjoyed today's episode, which I sure hope you did, you can enjoy your support in one of three ways.

[00:48:46] Jess: Number one, post the screenshot of this episode to your Instagram stories or LinkedIn profile. And tag Cindy and I so we can re repost you.

[00:48:54] Cindy: Number two, share this podcast with a fellow non-profit coach

[00:48:58] Jess: or consultant. And number three, leave a positive review on Apple Podcasts so we can continue to grow and reach new listeners.

[00:49:05] Cindy: And of course, make sure you subscribe so you can get the latest and greatest interviews as they drop. Every Thursday

[00:49:12] Jess: and to our fellow non-profit coaching and consulting friends, remember we're an open book and here to answer your burning biz questions.

[00:49:20] Cindy: See you next time.

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