Confessions with Jess and Cindy

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Taking a sabbatical with April Walker

cindy wagman
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“My relationship with rest has to continue to evolve because I'm the business, right? I'm the business. And if there's no better investment I can make, it's in myself.” - April Walker 

In today’s podcast, we’re chatting with April Walker about how she invests in her mental wellbeing by taking those well-needed breaks. She also shares how she earns from her speaking engagements, how she declines organizations who don’t stand for what she believes in, and how she informs clients when taking sabbaticals.

Highlights:

  1. You are the business. Without you, your business isn’t going anywhere so make sure you take those breaks from time to time, and make sure you really leave work behind when taking time off.

  2. We need to set boundaries with our clients. If they don’t stand for what you stand for, then what’s the point?

  3. Learn how to know your worth. If you always get an immediate yes, then you should’ve asked for more.

Resources Mentioned In This Episode:

Philanthropy for the People

Rhea Wong

Connect with April:

Find Us Online:  https://www.confessionswithjessandcindy.com/

Connect with Cindy:

Cindy Wagman Coaching https://cindywagman.com/

The Good Partnership https://www.thegoodpartnership.com/

Connect with Jess: 

Out In the Boons: https://www.outintheboons.me/

Transcript

[00:00:00] Jess: So, I don't know about you, Cindy, but I know when I was, especially first, starting my business, figuring out how to find my ideal customer with their ideal decision maker was a real challenge. And that's why I'm so excited to introduce our listeners to this amazing directory resource called The Nonprofits. Have you heard of it? 

[00:00:21] Cindy: I have. I'm actually a member, as are a lot of my clients. Because, It's, you know, hard to find new business. And I think what's hardest about it is like figuring out where nonprofits are actually looking for the kind of help that we provide. And that's what nonprofit is. They are a directory.

[00:00:43] So nonprofits looking to get expert help can come and search and find people local or international to hire out the kind of support they need. It's, to my knowledge, like I don't know of any other directories like that specifically in the nonprofit sector. 

[00:01:01] Jess: What I love about it is that the decision makers are coming to this directory with the right frame of mind, right? They know what they're looking to hire for and from being on the nonprofit site, it's super organized, it's super clean, it's super easy to navigate, and so it's just a really great matchmaking tool for projects and customers to work together. Yeah, and they're a community too, so you will also be able to access ongoing professional development opportunities and learning.

[00:01:32] So there's so much there and it really fits with, I think, our sort of ethos around community over competition where there's sharing and support and again, finding clients. So if you want to check out, so it's a by invitation only community, but you can request an invitation because you're a listener to our podcast. Just go to nonprofit.ist/confessions and fill in the form. 

[00:02:03] Cindy:Welcome to the Confessions podcast. I'm Cindy Wagman. 

[00:02:06] Jess: And I'm Jess Campbell. We're two former in-house nonprofit pros turned coaches and consultants to purpose-driven organizations. 

[00:02:14] Cindy: After years of building up our separate six-figure businesses from scratch, we've found a lot of spaghetti at the wall and have lived to see what sticks.

[00:02:23] Jess: We're on a mission to help other nonprofit coaches and consultants looking to start or scale their own businesses past the six-figure mark by pulling back the curtain. 

[00:02:33] Cindy: Whether you're still working inside a nonprofit and thinking of one day going out on your own, or you've been running your consulting business for years, you understand that working with nonprofits is just different. We're giving you access to the business leaders who serve nonprofits as their clients. You know, the people who truly get it. 

[00:02:54] Jess: No more gatekeeping, no more secrets. This podcast is going to give you an inside look at what running a successful nonprofit coaching and consulting business looks like. Basically, we're asking people how much money they make, how they get paid, and what has and hasn't worked in their businesses.

[00:03:14] Cindy: Listen in as these leaders share their insights, their numbers, and the good, the bad, and the ugly when it comes to building nonprofit coaching or consulting business. We're gonna empower you to make the power moves that give you the income and freedom you set out to create from day one.

[00:03:31] Jess: You ready? Let's go. 

[00:03:34] Hey, Cindy. 

[00:03:35] Cindy: Hey, Jess. 

[00:03:36] Jess: We are back with another episode, this one featuring the one and only April Walker of Philanthropy for the People. I cannot wait for everyone to listen to this conversation. 

[00:03:47] Cindy: I, this could not come at a better time. So we are talking about sabbaticals or taking time off and resting and unplugging, and I'm actually currently booking this free week holiday for next summer.

[00:04:01] Jess: So I love everything she talked about, but one of the things I want every consultant to hear is that you can do it. That your clients, people are not gonna get mad at you for taking time off. No. In fact, what I really took away from our conversation with April was how taking a sabbatical had only benefits .Whether it was the relationship with her clients and establishing boundaries to her, reminding herself that rest doesn't need to be earned that it's going to make her, frankly, a better entrepreneur and business owner by establishing these breaks in her business. It was just such a masterclass. And what I appreciated from her was just the step by steps and the details she shared with us.

[00:04:50] The really nitty gritty of how, not only was she able to take it, but what was it like when she was on it and how was it coming back? You know, just all the things. 

[00:04:59] Yeah, there's so many great details in this conversation, but most of all, just like that transparency and openness, and I think it's such a role model for all of us around intentional rest and how that's so important to our wellbeing and we are our businesses, so it also affects our bottom line.So at the time of this podcast episode coming out as we start looking towards the holiday season and hopefully a time where people can take rest, I hope you enjoy this conversation with April and all of the takeaways we both got in it.

[00:05:40] Cindy: Enjoy.

[00:05:42] Jess: Everyone. Welcome back to Confessions with Jess and Cindy. We are so lucky because we have the one and only April Walker of Philanthropy for the People here to talk all things about her business today. Hi,April. Welcome to the podcast. 

[00:05:59] April: Hi, that's me. Happy to be here. Thank you so much for having me. Excited for the conversation. 

[00:06:04] Jess: Yes, us too. So as we've begun to talk with our fellow nonprofit coaches and consultants. One of the things that I think would be helpful for folks to know is who you are, what your business is, who you serve. 

[00:06:19] April: Got it. Happy to do that. So I am April Walker. I am to ground myself in some type of space. I am currently residing in the Midwest when I'm originally from the East Coast so shout out to anyone from DC maryland, Virginia. That's where my people hail from. I've worked in philanthropy for the past decade plus starting actually as a grant maker working at foundations, giving money away, which is what many people wanna do and where they wanna end their careers.

[00:06:44] That's how I started. And then got into some consulting and philanthropic advising and then made my way to fundraising. So that's only been within the past four or five years actually. and all of those different opportunities sort of span different roles, different nonprofit organizations. And in the fall of 2021, I decided I needed to do my own thing because I felt very restricted by working not only for one nonprofit mission, but working as a black leader, not being able to use my voice and service to the issues and causes that mean the most to me.

[00:07:16] and so I've been doing my own thing since then, and it was the best decision I've ever made. We'll talk more about it. 

[00:07:23] Cindy: Amazing. Now, one of the things we ask all of our guests, and you know, we love to get into the nitty gritty details, cuz this is all about confessions, can you share with us like how you get paid? What are your revenue streams? Who are your clients? What does your business look like? 

[00:07:43] April: Yeah, I love this question. So, I get paid in cold heart cash. No. I structure. 

[00:07:49] Jess: Yeah, you do. 

[00:07:50] April: Exactly. And if it's one thing fundraisers can do, it's talk money. So, hello. I structure most of my partnerships as monthly retainers. So very rarely do I do any work with an hourly base, on an hourly basis. So that means if you wanna work with me, we're gonna have some sort of timebound nature of the project, which gives me great relief knowing that I am not married or embedded in an organization for an extended period of time. It just helps my sanity.

[00:08:17] Maybe we're doing a major gift strategy together. Maybe I'm coaching the development director. Maybe I am bringing in some practices and strategies specific to community centric fundraising. And all of that work is gonna happen on a monthly retainer basis. That could be $7,000 a month. That could be $2,100 a month.

[00:08:36] It depends on the client. I will say most of my nonprofit clients range from annual budgets of about 5 million up to 16 million for foundations, because I work with those organizations as well, whether it's as a grant evaluator or helping them with their own equitable grant making practices.That work is also project based.

[00:08:54] So it's another monthly retainer for me.I was gonna say something else. I forgot the second portion of your question, but maybe we'll get to it. Oh, I get paid for speaking engagements as well. So as, Jess may or may not have mentioned, I'm pretty active on LinkedIn and Instagram, and so I've appeared on the number of podcasts and panels and overtime it's developed into a marketing strategy of sorts where I get paid to come and speak to boards. I get flown out to speak to whoever, and I quite enjoy that. So I would say three different revenue streams if we look at two different types of clients, nonprofits and foundations, and then speaking engagements as well. 

[00:09:28] Jess: I love that and I'm so glad that it's both an income streamed and kind of a dual marketing effort. That's so smart. Going back to your monthly retainer, I'm really curious if you started out with those compared to an hourly rate or if you did an hourly rate and then evolved. I think it's really common for folks to do the latter and then sort it up, but I'm just curious as to how that evolution for determining, Oh no, I do a monthly retaining fee. That's how I operate. How did that kind of happen? 

[00:10:01] April: Yeah, it was definitely a struggle, especially while I still had that nine to five mentality of expecting a paycheck every two weeks and equating every hour of my time with a specific sort of value or outcome. But I have, I would say, one of the best business coaches in the world who just encouraged me early on to not think of partnerships in that way,because it, from her perspective, was a detriment to me. If I work very efficiently, I'm a very intellectual person, then I could be giving someone, you know, three hours of work in 45 minutes. And how is that fair? So equating the value not just to the actual potential outcome from a fundraising perspective, but what is, what feels fair to me, like the value of my time is so much more than what I can achieve in one hour.

[00:10:42] So it's never a conversation. It's never on the table. There will not be client engagements that, are billable hours in that way. It's just not how my business is gonna be structured. 

[00:10:51] Cindy: Yes. Oh my goodness. You said that so succinctly. I love it. I wanna ask you if you're comfortable, because one of the things that I find there is such a lack of transparency in our sector about is speaking fees.

[00:11:07] And I'm happy to sort of contribute to this conversation as well, but I get asked to speak on stages and virtually, and the budgets go anywhere from like $0 to thousands of dollars, and it drives me crazy that this is something that we don't talk about or share with each other, and there's just such discrepancy. Are you comfortable shedding a little light on how you price your speaking? 

[00:11:34] April: Sure, I'm happy to cuz I agree that salary transparency is huge and only benefits employers and others who have power. But I also wanna offer a framing that I received from another consultant who has been doing this work for quite a long time.

[00:11:48] Happy to share names if that's helpful. It's Anna Barber and I was in a conversation with her and she explained that she, hopefully I'm representing this the correct way, but essentially if she doesn't hear a number of nos when she's putting on a price and she is pricing too low. So say maybe of every three, you know, projects she puts forth, one or two of them should merit a conversation about the price.

[00:12:12] April: So if every time I put out a number, I'm always getting a yes. My immediate thought now is I should've asked for more. I should have asked for a lot more. Nonetheless, speaking. Engagement fees, absolutely, especially because I'm newer to this territory. I have priced anywhere from 6,500 up to over 10,000 for 90 minutes of my time, but that's including obviously preparation and planning and any amendments I need to make by virtue of being in conversation with folks.

[00:12:36] It is a privilege to hear me speak. I'll just offer that, but I also think.

[00:12:40] Cindy: Hundred percent.

[00:12:40] April: Yeah. I also think organizations have it and they don't bet an eye for certain types of initiatives. Board retreat budgets tend to be very large and if you're actually curious about, you know, the content and invested in it, then you will pay for it.

[00:12:54] I do a number of things that do not, you know, come with a fee, but I'm always gonna take the organization's budget into account. I'm gonna take their leadership into account and price it with the work that I know I have to do, especially if it's newer content, if it's a newer framing, if I can't pull from something that's kind of already in my wheelhouse, oh, that's gonna cost some money and I'm happy to, you know, hear your thoughts as well.

[00:13:17] Jess: Well, I think just to even break it down step by step, maybe for folks who are listening in and they're like, Oh my gosh, I wanna be on stages. Like people need to hear me speak. You know, it's,that's something I would just be really interested in. I'm curious as to, cuz same, and I talk a lot about my what's the right even word? I'll just kindly say disapproval with especially some very large tech companies offering nada for getting people to provide content for them.

[00:13:50] Cindy: Can we just, not just tech companies. Like there's sector conferences that don't pay, I can name them. Like almost all of them. Let's be real. Almost all of them. And they're not just tech, they're all. 

[00:14:07] Jess: Yeah. It's just a total disappointment and as someone that runs conferences and finds the budget to be able to pay even a modest fee. I have a lot of opinions, but I guess what I'm wondering is how did you graduate from, you know, Hey, April, we saw you speak at X, Y, Z, and we'd love to invite you to our speaking engagement. How do you initiate the conversation, maybe even in a step by step way of inquiring about a budget or saying, this is how I charge.

[00:14:37] Because in my experience, it's not generally offered up on a plate in the request. And I think for folks who are just starting to want to speak on stages and get paid to speak,hearing kind of your process would be really helpful. 

[00:14:50] April: Sure. And I have had instances where it's a part of the initial conversation, so it really, I think it's a lot of it is case by case.

[00:14:57] My brain is moving too quickly. In terms of a step by step. I always wanna take into account A: the topic, right? What am I being asked to talk about? And if someone is approaching me to talk about something that is not adjacent to equity, that is not adjacent to black people, that is not adjacent to liberation, then I'm not actually the speaker for you.

[00:15:16] April: So there's no amount of money I should be discussing with you because you don't actually know enough about me. Because the topic you're proposing, whether it's prospect research or something else, what evidence is there that I'm gonna come and be impactful on that stage, right? I may know it and I may know how to do it, but there's a clear theme to how I approach this work.

[00:15:37] So the first thing I'm actually looking for is an alignment, whether I know you or not, whether were previous colleagues or not, is there an alignment in the actual content? If they have not offered up a specific budget to me, then I'm gonna offer to them, happy to participate or continue conversations about said panel.

[00:15:57] This is going to take, I anticipate three hours of planning time. I'm happy to offer a debrief and any follow up engagement opportunities as well, which being additional, and I don't always have to offer, you know, hourly rates, but this additional work. Plus the time that I spend actually leading or facilitating will cost X.

[00:16:17] Do you have a budget in the range of X and Y? And to me, that's the best way to sort of like just jump in directly and navigate it. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. But I would say eight out 10 cases for me, folks have had the budget ready to go from the beginning, which sometimes is an asset and other times it's not.

[00:16:37] Cuz having the conversation about it, helps them reframe who they're reaching out to and why. Cause you shouldn't be reaching out to people asking them to do free labor anyway so.

[00:16:50] Cindy: Yes,it's, and I think like, it sounds like you're doing a lot of speaking with organizations and this is the part thatI'm just gonna rant for another minute and then we can change topics. But I find that I get paid for speaking from nonprofit organizations, like actual organizations to do like small or like, you know, membership-based conferences or board retreats or things like that. And they can find the budget, but it's the big conferences that don't like paying. Meanwhile, they're actually making profit on the conferences and so yeah, that, I will say end rant.

[00:17:31] But I am curious about the business model of those conferences going forward, because I think a lot of people are just like, I won't, How can I get paid $6,000 to speak at a small little conference run by a charity? And this ginormous conference, it will cost me to participate. I don't get it. 

[00:17:50] April: Yes, I'll invite a little word known as greed, into the narrative because I think, you know, when someone is an organization, entity, whatever is focused very much on profit, they will have a clear indicator of what they will and will not invest in. And I think the three of us are probably of a mind where, sure, there are some stages we might like to be on.

[00:18:11] There are some rooms we might like to be in and could have positive effects for us moving forward. But at what cost? And that cost is not me volunteering my time for supposed learning for your benefit. Right. Because if there is no investment on behalf of set learning, I'm not interested in performative sort of evolution.

[00:18:31] Jess: Right? I wanna actually have authentic engagement with people that are curious, or at least enough of you are curious that you're willing to bring me there and we can talk about the thing. But just to fake it?No. April you strike me as someone who has had a masterclass and is a master executor in all things boundaries. And as someone who struggles with that, I'd like to direct the conversation into boundaries. You know, the real reason I initially reached out to you about having a conversation early in our podcast journey was because you were about to embark on a sabbatical and that coupled with how you have boundaries around how you get paid and what stages you say yes or no, and just all the things.

[00:19:23] It's just, I'd love to bring the conversation to how you have decided to not just establish boundaries, but stick with boundaries throughout your, you know, relatively new entrepreneurial journey. 

[00:19:39] April: For sure, so I'm gonna give some credit to my coach Rhea Wong, who I know, you know. and we are two and a half years, maybe slightly longer into our relationship.Our coaching relationship and friendship at this point and so she's always been this voice where if I hear her say something to me in March, I'm like, that sounds really extreme, but by May I catch up and I'm like, that was the right thing to say so I certainly have to give credit to being in a relationship where someone can tell me the honest truth and allow me to make my way there.

[00:20:07] And, you know, in my own time. Jess, if we were having this conversation six months ago, it would've been completely different. I think the era I'm in now is certainly one of knowing the benefits of exercising or executing personal boundaries in my own life and having that extend to my business as well for my wellbeing, for my sanity. And I also recognize just how revolutionary it is that I'm able to operate and exist in the world in this way. Right. The relationship that many black women have with rest is incredibly harmful. The relationship that many black women have with overworking with not knowing ease is incredibly harmful.

[00:20:44] And so I see what I'm doing by, you know, the sabbatical you mentioned was me leaving my laptop in this country. And when Rhea mentioned that, I thought she was crazy. Leaving the country, turning all the email off and not doing anything. And it was honestly one of the best gifts I could have given myself.

[00:21:01] And quite frankly, it was a sabbatical light, right? It expanded about three weeks. I did end up in two different countries, five different cities like I was out here living. And it was really just the taste of the kind of rest and the kind of exploration that I planned to have inside of 2023, because I simply deserve that, but I also need that to be able to reimagine and reinvigorate what I'm bringing to my business.

[00:21:27] But yeah, I got pretty bold towards the end. You're gonna get cut off on June 25th if you asked me for anything. I have nothing for you. There will be no email checking. There will be no conversations. If you have my number, don't use it. Use it and plan to get ignored. I mean, it was such a necessary space for me.

[00:21:47] And knowing that the last thing I'll say, women in my family, the women that came before me never had such a chance, right? My mother could, she worked for the post office for 30 years. She could never just say, I'm taking three weeks off. I mean, she was in an environment where she couldn't take off to go to a family member's funeral.

[00:22:04] April: And she always told me to be my own boss. And now that I am, I'm not going to squander this opportunity, squander this moment by working so dang hard that I don't get to enjoy it. 

[00:22:16] Cindy: Hmm. That is so amazing and powerful and just, I literally, Jess and I think are both jumping to ask you questions. There's so many. So I'm gonna start with one and I actually, one of my favorite quotes bya guy named Michael Hyatt is that, "Rest is not a reward for good work. It's a condition of good work. And I'd love to hear, not that your rest needs to be about work, but I'd love to hear about some of the, let's call them outcomes or like what that rest allowed you to have in your life and in your, you know, allowed for you in your thinking and all of that. 

[00:23:00] April: That's a beautiful framing. You know, many things. I would say primarily it was a reintroduction to myself. It was a reintroduction to elements of my personality, elements of my belief system that really just lie dormant when I do, when I am in work mode, when I am in serious mode, when I am in presentation or facilitation mode.

[00:23:22] Right? It was like a, Oh, you can be kind of funny. Oh, you don't mind riding on horses for two hours in Guatemala? Like, you don't mind just randomly making friends and talking to strangers at the pool. Like you're okay with some of this uncertainty in the way that you're navigating the world?I think several of us maybe have learned at certain points in our careers.

[00:23:40] If you take a vacation, you need like a vacation before in a vacation, after you actually do the thing, right? You shouldn't, it's not ideal to go to the beach and be like, I'm resting now, cuz you're gonna be stressed, you're gonna be thinking about work and you're gonna be anticipating, you know, what's happening the next time you open your laptop.

[00:23:58] So really having enough time to have a moment where you forget about all of it. I just also recognize that the hardest thing about being an entrepreneur for me has not been the work itself. It's been the anxiety that I bring to the work. It's been the uncovering of what my relationship with rest and care and specifically kindness to myself is.

[00:24:21] It's not been the work so many of us can handle the mechanics. But it's been what I put myself through, because I haven't taken care of myself as I approach whatever the assignment is, and so my relationship with rest has to continue to evolve because I'm the business, right? I'm the business. And if there's no better investment I can make, it's in myself.

[00:24:49] Jess: Okay, April, we're back with rapid fire questions. Thanks for playing along. First question, Coffee or tea in the morning? 

[00:24:57] April: Coffee. All the coffee. 

[00:24:59] Jess: How do you take coffee?

[00:25:01] April: Man, as bold and strong as possible. 

[00:25:05] Jess: I love it. I personally am a tea drinker, but I respect the commitment to a bold, hot drink in the morning.

[00:25:12] April: I'm in a committed relationship with my Starbucks baristas. Thank you. 

[00:25:16] Jess: I love it. So we were talking about sabbaticals on your episode. Where if, you know, are you traveling to next? 

[00:25:24] April: Ooh, I have Jamaica, la, and Belize coming back up by the end of the year. By the end of the year. Yes.

[00:25:30] Jess: Incredible. And my last question is, what does the perfect weekend look like to you? 

[00:25:35] April: Oh my gosh. So restful , so quiet. Probably a massage, a deep tissue or hot stone one, time in nature. I live near Lake Erie, so time in nature, and then time with a friend, whether that's over brunch or on a couch or FaceTime. 

[00:25:54] Jess: Thanks for playing.

[00:25:55] April: Of course.

[00:25:59] Jess: If you could see our chat right now, April, by the way, we just don't wanna miss anything. So for the tactical practicalness, that is all things Jess, I would like to step back and figure out from you what steps you took to actually make this sabbatical possible, right? You talked about having really hard boundaries.

[00:26:18] June 25th, poof, I'm gone. I'm gonna ignore you all the things. But what did you have to do in the lead up to that moment to actually make it happen so that people listening in who are like, I wanna take a three weeks sabbatical next summer, can start to think about those steps in motion.

[00:26:38] April: Love this, and again, just for listeners, let me, I'm gonna be specific. That was my sabbatical light, right? Next year we're going six to eight weeks at a minimum, so we're just dipping our toe in to see what feels possible. The preparation really started in a conversation with my business coach, right? So finding someone to hold me accountable. I had been saying for a while.

[00:26:57] Hey, I need a month off. Hey, I can't really think straight. I need some time. I need a day. I need more than a day, a week, a long weekend to not be doing this. And then that time approached and she was like, You gonna take it? And I was like, Oh, But I can't. What do you mean? Like me leave the work behind?

[00:27:14] How could I? So having an accountability partner to say, You can, you should, you will. Also, there was a very odd, and I will get to a couple more specifics. I had a moment where I had gone shopping one day. Retail therapy is absolutely a thing, as my credit card. Um, and I was like, Why do I keep mine shoes?

[00:27:32] I had like four new pairs of shoes, nowhere to wear any of them. And I was like, You keep doing these really small, like barely band-aid things to make yourself feel better, do the thing that you wanna do. The thing that I wanted to do was leave the country, be away from everybody. And so I committed to it. I looked at my client like projection lists, where were contracts, where was I at, what was I in the middle of, picked a specific date.

[00:27:56] This main like anchor client that I had at the time was gonna be wrapping up. I would be phasing into a sort of less, um, hands on role. So that was the date that I set. Bringing and communicating that so that that specific client could know, don't add anything , like, don't have any expectations that I'll continue to be here.

[00:28:14] New clients or new perspective business, I let them know. I'm happy to talk to you now. Don't expect me to start in the actual work until early August. So this was around May, early June. I left the country on the 25th and found time to actually plan and figure out where I wanted to stay, what type of luxury I wanted to dive into.

[00:28:37] April: So leading up to that, I made clear to you, Jess, cuz we worked on something together and others, these will be entirely black outreaches for me, I got comfortable and made myself continue to use the word sabbatical, which was new for me. I didn't just wanna say out of the office, I didn't just wanna say out of the country.

[00:28:54] No. I wanted you to know that I was being intentional about not working. I'm taking a sabbatical and I have no interest in an urgent type of vibe right now. Um, so there was an awful lot to sort of get to the finish line. But it was a matter of making sure that it was a date, a moment, a series of times that I was comfortable and actually stepping away that things were gonna be in a good place.

[00:29:15] Um, having accountability to follow through. One the thing, identifying someone cuz I don't have a full time assistant, um, to check anything that was going on. And there was maybe one or two things I was willing to be flagged about, neither of which manifested when I was out of the country. Um, and then literally just starting to buy the stuff, right?

[00:29:33] Like booking the flight, the mechanics of like, you're gonna go. And I was solo traveling. I was by myself. So like being my own travel agent, making myself prioritized that over whatever other deliverables were coming, because that became the focus. Um, hopefully that answers the question. 

[00:29:56] Cindy: Oh yeah. I wanna dive a little deeper into like telling people you're not available. Because I hear from consultants that they're scared to even take like a week off because they don't want to tell people they're not available for like anything. So can you talk about the experience of saying that? Like also wanna preface it by saying like, I think also you mentioned very early on like, you know, wanting to do all these things.

[00:30:28] And I think a lot of what we are trained to do in our sector is to not have those things. It's not to take long periods off. So we have it as a hangover from like working in nonprofits and charities where we're told like, uh, the work comes first. And then when we're running our own business, it's really all about like the clients come first and like, I need to say yes to every opportunity cause I need money and all that. Tt's really hard to actually tell people that you have boundaries, so I'd love to hear how that went. 

[00:31:02] April: Yeah, I definitely struggled with it or was hesitant to do it Again, shout out to Rhea for reminding me. What is the point of all of this if you're not gonna live a life that you enjoy, like what is the point of all of this if you were not going to move in a way that is truly distinct from the requirements of being the Chief Development Officer, allowing board members to call you on holidays or what, whatever suits them in their busy schedule. So what is the point like this? Why doesn't this feel different to you? From what you were doing because you're not creating an environment where it is clear to people that this is different.

[00:31:33] When you have access to me and you're a client, you have all of me. So therefore, when you don't, it took a lot of time and practice to be like, I'm gonna miss that meeting, or I can't do that. I also have had clients throughout the country, right? I'm on Eastern Time, so if I have clients in Washington or California, our schedules are completely different, making clear to them.

[00:31:54] I'm gonna send you emails at 6:00 AM unless you ask me otherwise. I'm happy to schedule it to come later, but that's the time I'll be working and know at a certain point, I'm not gonna accept meetings that are 7:00 PM my time. I have nothing to offer you or the world. We can meet earlier or you can fill me in after.

[00:32:08] But it took me a while to get there. It took me a while to draw that boundary because I felt like I had to always be accessible to them. I'm in a place now where I know when you having me at any point, like, you've got enough of me, right? And if you need additional time that you're not getting or something, you'll either pay for that or find a way to accommodate what I am willing to give you.

[00:32:27] Um, it's, but it's been, it's been learned. I didn't come in with this kind of effect. I definitely sort of came in a bit more passively. Like, I'll take all the meetings. I'm really tired. I'm literally falling asleep on this board meeting that is6:00 PM time for them at nine o'clock for me. Is that me giving my best work?

[00:32:46] Is that me offering what is actually meaningful? No. And so then being clear about that and if you need something else, then that means we don't need to be a lot of breakups, but I have not had, This should be clear, any client relationships that have gone awry, haven't had any, who have responded to my time off or my days away.

[00:33:05] My unwillingness to check email on certaintime periods with anything other than support. And so a lot of that is also living in our heads, right? If I tell them this, if I can't do this, then. It's gonna come crashing down and I'll never get that retainer fee again. It has not been true. So a lot of that, what I was being, was being put on myself.

[00:33:25] That's to say, just do really great work when you're actually on the clock and when you're not, it's much easier for people to support you and say, God speed, go rest, enjoy yourself. Bring me a key chain. 

[00:33:39] Jess: I love that. I love that. And. I'm guessing that they probably respect you more, you know, and people love to just be told what to do. So when you say, I'm not responding, or I'm not answering, or I'm away, or this or that, or the other, it's helpful to just know, you know? Um, So I just, and I love that you said that it wasn't just there, you know, you've evolved to that, you've had to learn those behaviors. And I wanna get into what working with a coach is like specifically.

[00:34:09] It sounds like Ria's been a great resource for you in a second, but while we're still talking about the sabbatical, I'm curious how long did it take for you to actually be away to separate to, I know, you said you didn't bring a computer and you were really out of the country and stuff, so physically you were distanced.

[00:34:32] But I know at least for me, when I go on vacation or I take time off, it takes a beat, a more than a beat almost to the end of my vacation to be like, Oh, I'm actually not thinking about work. I'm just curious what that kind of transition period was like for you, and if that plays into why the next time you take a sabbatical it's gonna be double or triple the time.

[00:34:59] April: I love that. Yes. Um, There was something really powerful for me and maybe knew this and I didn't, about literally being away from the equipment, like being away from the actual machines that I use from the environment that I'm in.so it took me less time when I anticipated, I would say by the third day.

[00:35:17] I was very much like, yes. The hardest thing I'll do today is walk to the pool and, and, and, and call over the bartender for my next mojito. I had settled into that pretty, pretty easily. And then I also got into a space that I actually get into most weekends, where I'm unwilling to check email on this soil like I refuse.

[00:35:41] And so I had a mind that I would, you know, start to ease back into it. The flights were pretty long. I would, I could not do it until I actually landed back, not in this country, in this state, and was required to the following morning. And so that boundary in some way almost set itself. Like, I don't wanna interrupt this space with anything other than the joy and freedom that I feel.

[00:36:03] Because it's too, it's too meaningful to me. It's too meaningful for me to invite in what I know is sometimes just inherently stressful. So I would say it took three days to kind of like find my stride. I pretty early on found my voice. I don't know if anyone's traveled alone, you know, to a different country.

[00:36:23] April: It's a different experience than having, you know, people with you and being with a group. And a willingness as well to kind of like spare my expense. Like I'm here for an experience, so let me lean into the experience that I wanna have. And on the other side, having an awareness too that I was bringing back a different type of energy with me as well, so that I had to protect what I was bringing because I knew people had continued the grind in the meantime.

[00:36:47] I knew I was gonna be catching up with three weeks plus of updates of things that I missed. Oh, if so, so and so got fired. So and so left like this was a fire. Oh, wow. Okay. Well, where do I fit into that? That's not my responsibility. You guys were doing okay. So how can I be of service to you now that that's where you are?

[00:37:06] So not picking up any of those things, not returning and feeling like I've gotta carry the past three weeks of what I miss. I don't. I'm here to be of service. I'll hit play. We are on pause. I'll hit play on what matters to me and I'll support you, but truly not feeling bad about any of it. Not feeling, not like I missed out on anything.

[00:37:28] Cindy: Love it. Can you tell us a little bit more about that experience coming back and what was, so, you are very clear what happened while you were away, stayed where it was, but how was it for you to catch up or feel like you were back into the swing of things with work and was it different in any way?

[00:37:53] April: It definitely felt different until it felt the same in about like two and a half weeks before I was like, Ooh, wasn't long enough. April, you knew it wasn't long enough. But, getting back into the swing of it, I definitely brought a, like an ease, I think, and I would actually love to access the people that I was working with at the time. Much more lighthearted, you know, like, here are some photos from the trip. Not that I needed to give you proof, but like, and I'm holding an Iana, like, look at, look at this.

[00:38:19] Right? I know philanthropy, but like, this is me like a huge iguana. Can we have a moment for this? So like being, just being as, as happy and joyful as I was, as a reset to the space. Like sure there have been things going on. But it's me. And then iguana, his name was Mr. Gomez. So that's honestly what I'm thinking about.

[00:38:39] And we'll get to the fundraising cuz we always do so showing up very authentically. I don't share lots of my personal life or anything, but um, Allowing myself the freedom to do that. You can love it, you can hate it, but like I've gotta continue to honor what this was to me. And I told you about it in the beginning. Told you it was a sabbatical, told you I was leaving for Belize and other places, didn't even know I would go to Guatemala. And closing that, closing that out in almost a way, and intentionally letting folks almost vent because of the relationships that we have or however the client engagement is. Um, feeling like they had so much they wanted to unload and just listening but not feeling like I should have been here.

[00:39:22] Not feeling like I I owed you anything. You got it off your chest. And we'll hit, we'll hit play on the work, butallowing myself to continue the thread of the joy that was fabulous. Rest, fabulous excursions, delicious food. Yeah. 

[00:39:38] Jess: Ugh. Dreamy, dreamy, dreamy, dreamy. I want to circle back as we wrap up our question about this accountability partner, this investment, you've sound, it sounds like you've made early on in your business with working with a coach, with Rhea who has been on our podcast. We are big Rhea fans over here, and I'm just curious. It takes some people so long to get to that place, to make that investment. I know Cindy also has a coaching program and it is one of, I think the first things she works on with her clients around making important investments in their businesses.

[00:40:19] And so I'm just curious to how you got there. It sounds like so super fast if that was luck or if you, you know, are watching some other business owner or you know, for other people listening in that are like, Wow, I wanna have a business like April's that seems to be in flow. And with ease. she decides to take sabbaticals, you know, she works on her own terms.

[00:40:41] You just mentioned your coach several times and so I'm just curious as to how you came to, to have that. 

[00:40:49] April: Yeah. You know, it would've been so easy to break up with Rhea many times. I love her. I love her. But there are things as my coach, quite frankly, and Cindy, I'd love to hear from you about this, that she can say to me that I feel like nobody else can't. And that's because pretty early on she got to the core of what I was. She saw what this could before I was even like willing to peek at it, right? Our relationship was supposed to be completely different. I had to furlough half my team early in the pandemic, so I was holding onto the threads of my development department and the little state of the I had left.

[00:41:27] Did not expect to be in that position. So she was really supposed to be a thought partner specific to fundraising and being the authentic down to earth, no BS type of person that she is. She got to the core that the issue wasn't really, you know, pandemic stuff. It was that okay, you're in an environment where you're playing small, you're in an environment where you can try things, but it's also Cleveland.

[00:41:48] It's not in the most progressive place in the world. So like what is actually turning all of this on its head look like. Um, so I was concerned when I left that, uh, previous job and how I would continue to invest in this coaching relationship cuz I didn't wanna lose her. And so we were just, we were able to work something out.

[00:42:08] I didn't meet her in the flesh until March of this year, and we started working together in 2020. So having that trusted relationship, having someone to provide counsel and willing to say this, I experienced this before, you might wanna try it this way, and to push me is just invaluable. So I can't imagine.

[00:42:27] April: I wouldn't be here if not for her. And she doesn't always take that credit, but I really wouldn't, you know, she had said many times before, Why don't you just leave? And another time when she said it,I just heard it differently and I was ready. And she stayed with me through that. And now that I've have a year and some change under my belt, she's still there and she's still helping me think bigger about everything I do does not have to be an exchange of my time for a specific amount of money. So how can you, you know, re flip it again, and sometimes I'm like, girlfriend, listen. Listen. Right? But it's always in service to me, having, designing and maintaining the life that I say I want, but then I'm still afraid to cultivate.

[00:43:10] Jess: I love it. Shout out to Rhea. She's the best of the best. Okay, as we wrap up, everyone needs to know about you April. So for folks who want to follow along, listen to and watch your content, where is the best place for folks to find you? 

[00:43:27] April: Good question. So you can sign up for my newsletter via my website. Just scroll down to the bottom. We can stay in touch that way. There's also an archive of all the podcasts and articles and such that I've written. Very active, pretty loud on LinkedIn, so you can follow along there as well. And then Instagram is usually like a running sort of update of A: My Opinions, but B: other places to engage with me in terms of channels, podcast, events, etcetera. So you got a couple options. My websites like for the people.com, Instagram, same name, and then LinkedIn under April Walker, or the business name as well. 

[00:44:04] Jess: Amazing. You have been a blast to chat with today. Thank you for your transparency, for your details, for your processes. I think that everyone listening in is going to enjoy this conversation so, so much. 

[00:44:17] April: Thank you for having me. Appreciate you both.

[00:44:22] Cindy: Thank you again for listening to the Confessions podcast for nonprofit coaches and consultants. If you enjoyed today's episode, which I sure hope you did, you can show your support in one of three ways. 

[00:44:33] Jess: Number one, post the screenshot of this episode to your Instagram stories or LinkedIn profile and tag Cindy and I so we can re-post you.

[00:44:41] Cindy: Number two, share this podcast with a fellow nonprofit culture consultant. 

[00:44:46] Jess: And number three, leave a positive review on Apple Podcast so that we can continue to grow and reach new listeners. 

[00:45:52] Cindy: And of course, make sure you subscribe so you can get the latest and greatest interviews as they drop every Thursday.

[00:44:59] Jess: And to our fellow nonprofit coaching and consulting friends, remember we're an open book and here to answer your burning biz questions. 

[00:45:07] Cindy: See you next time.