AMA - saying buh-bye to clients
“There are clients where we just like, ‘Nah, this isn't working.’ It’s scary, right? It's scary to let go of revenue. I've always believed though, that like, the reason we consult is cause we don't wanna be treated badly by people. And so at some point, most of us are gonna have to fire a client.” - Cindy Wagman
“I think it's about giving yourself permission to not continue to work with clients that you don't wanna work with.” - Jess Campbell
It’s just Jess and Cindy in today’s podcast as they talk about the importance of knowing your limits when it comes to dealing with clients. In this episode, they explore how to properly approach the matter of firing clients. What boundaries have been crossed? How do you start the conversation? How do you frame your words?
Highlights:
The importance of setting boundaries with clients
How to frame conversation when firing a client
Remembering that our actions influence our client’s expectations of us
Resources Mentioned In This Episode:
Find Us Online: https://www.confessionswithjessandcindy.com/
Connect with Cindy:
Cindy Wagman Coaching https://cindywagman.com/
The Good Partnership https://www.thegoodpartnership.com/
Connect with Jess:
Out In the Boons: https://www.outintheboons.me/
Transcript
[00:00:00] Jess: I'm so excited to announce that the next Make It Happen Conference is coming to town on October 25th to a computer screen near you, and this one is, an especially special conference because I'm partnering with my partner in crime, Cindy Wagman and her company Cindy Wagman Coaching. Um, I can't wait to do this with you.
[00:00:24] Cindy: I'm so excited. Mostly because your virtual conferences are fire, like the energy, the people like it just feels so alive and generous and informative and like, I mean, one day you have to do this in person. I actually met, yesterday I met someone in real life who I met online through your conference and like,
[00:00:51] Jess: Love it.
[00:00:52] Cindy: the community that you're building of nonprofit consultants for this conference Make It Happen, which for those of you who haven't attended in the past, it is so, so good and just creates an amazing experience. And I think the people who show up are just so incredibly caring of each other in this community. And this, you have a theme for this one like
[00:01:19] Jess: I do. I know.
[00:01:19] Cindy: Tell me about it.
[00:01:21] Jess: Yeah, so this was born out of one of our monthly meetup calls where over the summer people were feeling that summer drag and really, really concerned about how to generate leads. And this conference draws nonprofit coaches and consultants that do everything from one to many services and group programs to just one on one consulting projects.
[00:01:42] And everyone across the board was like, ‘How do I get new leads?’ ‘How do I find new people to work with?’ And so I decided, let's go deep on this one topic. So this conference on again, October 25th, is going to be all about lead generation. Cindy, you wanna preview us to what you're gonna be sharing about.
[00:02:02] Cindy: Well, I, Yeah, I mean,
[00:02:06] Jess: It was something.
[00:02:09] Cindy: I will step onto my pedestal for a minute and talk about, like, I, I've tried lots of different marketing. I love a lot of it. I love playing with all of it, but I think sometimes we get lured into this idea of like this shiny object or marketing thing that's going to work wonders. And the reality in my experience in working with a lot of other consultants is that it's like the basic referrals, networks that actually bring in a lot of your business and there is process behind that. So we're gonna go into the process and you're gonna hear from my clients, the people I work with to help them build their lead base. But you're also gonna get all the other new best ideas. I mean, Jess, I know one of the things for you is Pinterest, you've been like killing it there, so you're gonna hear all the different ways that you can generate leads and really build your business. So that's thriving.
[00:03:16] Jess: Definitely. So the speaker lineup is fire. It's diverse. It is a lot of amazing women presenters. I can't wait for you to see them. Tickets go on sale October 4th and you can get more information about the October 25th Make It Happen Conference at the makeithappenconference.com. See you there.
[00:03:38] Cindy: We will see you there.
[00:03:40] Cindy: Welcome to the Confessions podcast. I'm Cindy Wagman.
[00:03:43] Jess: And I'm Jess Campbell. We're two former in-house nonprofit pros turned coaches and consultants to purpose driven organizations.
[00:03:51] Cindy: After years of building up our separate six figure businesses from scratch, we've thrown a lot of spaghetti at the wall and have lived to see what sticks.
[00:04:00] Jess: We're on a mission to help other nonprofit coaches and consultants looking to start or scale their own businesses past the six figure mark by pulling back the curtain.
[00:04:10] Cindy: Whether you're still working inside a nonprofit and thinking of one day going out on your own, or you've been running your consulting business for years. You understand that working with nonprofits is just different. We're giving you access to the business leaders who serve nonprofits as their clients, you know the people who truly get it.
[00:04:32] Jess: No more gatekeeping, no more secrets. This podcast is going to give you an inside look at what running a successful nonprofit coaching and consulting business looks like. Basically, we're asking people how much money they make, how they get paid and what has and hasn't worked in their businesses.
[00:04:51] Cindy: Listen in as these leaders share their insights, their numbers, and the good, the bad, and the ugly when it comes to building a nonprofit coaching or consulting business. We're gonna empower you to make the power moves that give you the income and freedom you set out to create from day one.
[00:05:08] Jess: You ready? Let's go.
[00:05:11] Cindy: Hey Jess.
[00:05:12] Jess: Hi Cindy.
[00:05:15] Cindy: Oh, we are back with another one of our conversations where you and I are digging into something. That conversation that we keep hearing from people that comes up. And today it's about firing your clients.
[00:05:31] Jess: Yeah, I think it's one of those dirty little topics that people need to be talking about more and sharing resources on and, you know, to the extent that's needed a role play because it can be a really scary
[00:05:47] Cindy: It's hard,
[00:05:48] Jess: conversation to have. And I think for me, even sitting in those moments of being on that line, like ‘am I there?’ Like, ‘Is this what needs to happen?’ versus the fear of like what the outcome could be?
[00:06:03] Cindy: Yeah.
[00:06:05] Jess: So yeah, like let's dive in to
[00:06:06] Cindy: Let's talk about it.
[00:06:07] Jess: what it's like to work with those pain in the ass clients that sometimes need to be fired.
[00:06:13] Cindy: And like, there's so many different circumstances that we've, I don't wanna say like that I've had to fire clients because I haven't had to fire that many clients. But I definitely think there's a few things that come up and I say this as managing a whole network of other consultants who are, you know, from time to time they've also had to fire clients, and I've coached them through that.
[00:06:39] And I think for the, the one thing that comes up quite a bit is like toxic people and just working with someone who has you know, unrealistic expectations or who, you know, treats you like an employee, which is the whole reason we're consulting is cuz we don't wanna be employees. So those I find like really challenging folks to work with because there's just [an] entitlement almost like. Yeah.
[00:07:17] Jess: I'm, It'll be this. For the couple of clients that you have had to say goodbye to, did you know that they were bad clients from the get go, or was it something that presented itself after you were kind of in the thick of the project?
[00:07:33] Cindy: So both, I have worked with clients who I was like, ‘Is this gonna be the right fit?’ And then sometimes it's a situation of like, you're early in your business and you say yes to things because it's paying you and then sometimes I feel bad cuz I'm like, no one else is gonna work with this person.
[00:07:55] And you know, I don't mind, or like, you know, things like that. So sometimes I do know and sometimes I don't and I've also had clients where we've seen them actually like go from being a great client to getting really burnt out and becoming really toxic to work with. So that's a, you know, another situation.
[00:08:15] Jess: Interesting. Yeah, I was gonna say, for me, I feel like I've noticed it from the get go. And then I think that there's a fine line between, you know, having to go all the way to fire your clients versus having a client that you really care about and maybe you've been working for a long time, but who says something either super inappropriate or super hurtful.
[00:08:36] And then again, like reestablishing that line that like you're a human and no one's going to treat you that way. I know I've had to have that conversation. Also super difficult and hard to do. You know, just to speak up for yourself.
[00:08:51] Cindy: Yeah.
[00:08:51] Jess: But super necessary, I think in moving forward in your relationship because I think a working relationship with someone where there's a lack of respect, there's a lack of balance, is just bad news bears all the way around.
[00:09:05] Cindy: Yeah, yeah. No, I think that there's clients who, again, cross that boundary or do something, but it's almost like for the benefit of them and for the organization, you wanna work with them that you have to have those hard conversations. I mean, we had a client like that where I just had to say like, these are our boundaries.
[00:09:27] If it doesn't work for you, like here would be a better solution. Like maybe you actually do need to hire someone in house. If you want an answer at four o'clock on a Friday, I'm not your gal. And what do those boundaries look like? But I've had clients who treat my staff really bad and that's just a non-negotiable.
[00:09:48] And some I, and like, I don't know, like this is Confessions, but like I feel sometimes a little bit like a coward where I don't always call it out for what it is. And I just, I think we all do that but it's still hard to figure out, like, when do you call someone out on their behavior and when do you kind of just be like, ‘Okay, we're done here.’ You know? Work is done. Let's wrap it up, kind of like just skirt around and make it a little more comfortable for everyone.
[00:10:19] Jess: One of the ways that I've had to do that with a client is, this person is actually very self-aware. But he works with, he's got a big job and he’s got a small team and he's stressed, you know. Welcome to the world of nonprofits, right? And some things he will write out or he will communicate. You can just tell that his tone is unkind or disrespectful or whatever. And what I've learned to do with him is actually just give him a beat like, not, don't as much as I wanna like, you know, be the dragon and fum back with a reply is I actually will just close my inbox and step away for the better part of like 12 or 24 hours and nine times out of ten, he circles back to me first with an apology.
[00:11:15] Cindy: Yeah.
[00:11:16] Jess: And I think that, just putting some space in that situation to like let people come back to their senses and I appreciate him doing that because it's actually strengthened our relationship. It's also been like a way to learn how to work with one another. And if and when that happens again, I know to do that in the future because I really enjoy working with this client, but I am not going to put up with that kind of behavior.
[00:11:46] Cindy: And I think like in that situation, it sounds like he really trusts you and you're almost like a safe space for him to
[00:11:53] Jess: Yeah.
[00:11:54] Cindy: get outta line a little bit and that, and you like working with him. There are clients where we just like, ‘Nah, this isn't working.’ It’s scary, right? It's scary to let go of revenue.
[00:12:12] I've always believed though, that like, the reason we consult is cuz we don't wanna be treated badly by people. And so at some point, most of us are gonna have to fire a client at some, you know, or self-sacrifice our wellbeing.
[00:12:28] Jess: So for the people listening in, I'm thinking they're probably listening to this and thinking like, okay, but like how? Like I have a terrible client right now. What would be the steps I take to actually stepping into the big shoes and having these difficult conversations, what would you say is like, step number one? How would you coach someone?
[00:12:52] Cindy: So going through this right now with clients, So the first thing is you don't always need to. Like, sometimes it's just a fit and sometimes it's just like, ‘Okay, this isn't what I wanna be doing’ and so let's just kind of move on.
[00:13:09] And for those conversations, like, I don't love surprising people with news like this. I feel like it's not good. Like I try to think how do I frame this as almost, not a win for them, like, but if they're not like doing active harm, it's just not a fit, then I will, I'll try frame it as like, ‘Okay, here's what we've accomplished together. Looking forward, I don't think you need this kind of support or I think what you need instead.’
[00:13:42] So really framing it as like, what's best for them in their organization and that's not always us. And you know, again, that has to be true. I don't wanna like lie to them but usually that is the truth. That is the truth in like the way they work, the way we work, maybe not totally aligned.
[00:14:03] And so what have we accomplished, and then how do we look forward. And again, I try do that as sort of like a check-in meeting like make it clear that the reason you're meeting is to sort of think about the bigger picture and what that working relationship looks like. You don't wanna like sneak it into the end of a conversation, uh, like your weekly check-in or like, Oh, the blah, blah, blah, blah. ‘Oh, and by the way, you know, I think we should talk about not working together anymore.’
[00:14:32] Jess: Right.
[00:14:33] Cindy: And so yeah, so prepare them for that conversation. Have the conversation and frame it in, like how do we do, what's in the best interest of the organization and you achieving your goals. And then what's the plan? How do we make that transition? And we usually come with a couple of ideas, but also willingness to listen and be flexible. I personally, like we work with small organizations, so I always try on the side of like being generous, being, accommodating, not leaving them high and dry. And so what might that look like? How about you?
[00:15:12] Jess: I, well, I was just gonna say, I think that anytime you have to deliver difficult feedback or have a difficult conversation using that sandwich method of communication is always so helpful where you really lead with something super positive. You maybe say something that's a challenge and then you follow it up quick with another positive.
[00:15:34] So that again, the person isn't feeling like attacked. I loved what you just said. How you frame the conversation so that you put it on yourself or your consultancy or your team in a way that makes them, you know. I love what you said about not leaving them out to thrive dry.
[00:15:53] Cindy: Yeah.
[00:15:53] Jess: Because so many people that's like, that becomes a different stress and now you're the consultant that is now leaving them and leaving them empty handed and you're just like, that's, you know, the worst place for a small nonprofit especially to be in.
[00:16:07] Cindy: Yeah. And I have had to work, so part of our team has had to fire clients with a little bit of hard truth in there. And we've always talked about this as when you do the hard truth, it's an active service. So this like, there's been a couple instances where either, like one instance, the organization was just really, the finance person was not managing it well.
[00:16:34] There was a lack of financial controls, really big red flags. And you know, the consultant in our group was kind of like, ‘I just kind of wanna walk away like this isn't working.’ And I, you know, we talked about, well yes, walk away. They should not be spending money on fundraising consultants when they don't have their financial house in order.
[00:16:58] But also you are in a position where you can actually make material change to the organization by speaking about what's going on and what the challenges are. So like, let's talk about what that looks like and again, make it really neutral, there's no judgment, but it's, the executive director needs to understand that her success requires these types of financial controls and systems, and that's not happening.
[00:17:30] So, and I think we even like referred them to bookkeeping firms and that kind of thing to really say, ‘Okay, like, you need to do this and here's how.’ And until you get those things in order, you shouldn't be wasting, like we shouldn't be working together.
[00:17:48] Jess: I'm also sitting here thinking how easy it is to talk about this and how difficult it is to actually do, especially when revenue is critical to you paying next month's bills or whatever. So how would you advise someone that's legitimately in this position, but they need the work? Do you have any advice? I mean, again, I'm feeling
[00:18:14] Cindy: You've all been there.
[00:18:15] Jess: free coaching session from the Cindy Wagman Coaching,
[00:18:20] Cindy: I mean, We've all been there and like, I would lie if I said that I didn't keep working with people who I didn't wanna work with because it felt like I needed to and like, that's okay, right? We need to figure out, forgive ourselves and understand like where we are. And at the same time, I don't know and I think you would, you operate this way to kind of always try to operate in my truth and align with my values?
[00:18:55] And so it's figuring out like what were the boundaries are, at what point, so for example, when I've had clients treat my staff badly, that's a hard boundary. When they treat me badly, I can kind of, that's the softer boundary. And I hate to say that, and that sounds like, I mean whatever but it's true. Like I, I feel like I can take things, but I don't want to be responsible for putting those on someone else. It's my business. It's not my staff's business. Yeah, I don't know. Have you also like, I know we've done that. Have you had clients where you're like, ‘I should find them, but I don't want to.’
[00:19:37] Jess: I mean, absolutely. Absolutely. But it's also making me think, and this might be a part of a different conversation that's why this is so important to be prepared and planned in your business that you are saving a portion of your income for rainy day situations. That I think, one of the stickiest situations I got in was in the summer of 2019. I had been working with a fantastic client, but they basically took up every working hour I was able to commit for the better part of like nine or ten months.
[00:20:12] I was also at the end of that project going through something very personal in my life. And that event ended, that project ended, and the well was dry, like nothing. And so I was just like, ‘I will take anything because I have nothing.’ And so I think when you become in one of those more desperate situations, you more easily have the chance to fall victim to working with less than desirable clients.
[00:20:42] Putting up with people's behaviors that you would not otherwise put up with. And it's just my reminder that like a little bit, a little chunk of every single invoice that gets paid needs to go into that savings account for a rainy day. But that you also always need to be somewhat marketing and prospecting. Like always, we can never let those dials go down to cold, even if you're booked out solid.
[00:21:11] Cindy: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's so true. And like it took me a long time to get to the point where I was actually saving in the business
[00:21:19] Jess: Totally.
[00:21:20] Cindy: and had that rainy day fund. But I think it is a priority also, like as a total aside, one book that changed my life is called Profit First by I think Mike Michalowiz. Something like that, but he, that book is like exactly what he said, like, take a little bit of money every time you get, actually not just, so you put your profit first and then you put aside and you separate your money out into different accounts of like taxes, payroll, operations, all that kind of stuff. So for every dollar and it gets distributed right away. Game changer. I love that.
[00:22:00] Jess: I'm very impressed. I started the book and then it was the execution of actually like starting nine or whatever different checking accounts that I got stuck. And so this is my own reminder to like go back and finish it.
[00:22:15] Cindy: Go back. So fun, like total sidetrack. But so I have a calc, like I have a spreadsheet with all of our revenue and, and expenses that I monitor on a, like couple times a month.
[00:22:26] Jess: Yeah, you're good.
[00:22:27] Cindy: I like the numbers. They feel comfortable for me. And so I have a calculation in there so that when money comes into the account, I just plug in that amount and automatically tells me where to move the different accounts.
[00:22:42] But also, I have a fabulous bookkeeper. It was the first thing I outsourced. And I've been working with her ever since. She also is a specialist in sort of the profit first model and so that's, so, so helpful. I don't have to like, I don't worry about the number, like she just sends me the reports, but it's all done. It's so good. Every month she's like, ‘These are the expenses. I don't know how to categorize them and everything else is done.’
[00:23:13] Jess: Dreamy.
[00:23:15] Cindy: It's so, so, so good. But bottom line is, you know, it takes a little bit of setup. But once you're in it, it's actually really straightforward. And yeah, I have my trusted little spreadsheet. I've used the same spreadsheet for a few years now and it does all the calculations for me. And yeah, anyways, that was a total tangent.
[00:23:39] Jess: Well, it's just making me think that like you'll never find yourself in that situation, right? Where if you are in a position where you either want or need to fire a client, you're not making your decision based on financial fear.
[00:23:49] Cindy: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:23:50] Jess: And that's really, really, really important for folks. And I'm thinking, okay, that sounds great in theory, but like again, I need money now. And so I think for the folks listening in, if you're currently working with a client that is just, you know, sucking your energy dry. You know, maybe you can't say and have these hard conversations tomorrow, but can you have it in the next 30 days, 60 days.
[00:24:15] And you know, maybe that means you have to work an extra hour in your day for the next four weeks, or you have to like pull some time on Saturday so that you can get that next client to replace that revenue. But I think it's about giving yourself permission to not continue to work with clients that you don't wanna work with.
[00:24:36] Cindy: Yeah. Can we also, I'd love for you to talk about putting up boundaries with difficult clients. So maybe you're not in a position to fire them, but you need to find a better way to work with them, like they're taking all your time or they're not respecting the way you work, or they're asking for too much. I know I've had that. I'm sure you have two. How have you, how would you recommend people deal with that?
[00:25:00] Jess: So again, in my business, this has taken years to perfect and it's for my fellow fundraisers listening. And it's kind of how I would advise people who are considering bringing on new board members, the more upfront and transparent and honest you can be from the beginning.
[00:25:18] Not in the middle, not three-fourths of the way through, but from the very get go, the better. So for example, I tend to do a lot of like kickoff calls and there's onboarding documents and I have very clear sets of communication channels, hours of operation. I am someone in my business, like I like working and so it's not uncommon for me to work on a Saturday or Sunday or work late into the evening, but I'm also someone that doesn't like to work on Fridays and things like that.
[00:25:55] So I say that caveat because I am someone that will give out my cell phone number because as Cindy knows, I'm not the greatest always on responding to email. I might have read it but I haven't always responded. And so it's like, if you need a quick answer, here's my text message.
[00:26:14] But if like you're texting me on a Saturday, like, don't expect me to be complying to you. And so again, I think it's just about really setting up at the beginning and so it's clear. Do you have any questions? What hours do you prefer to work? [I am] also trying to be considerate. So I have a system with my mother-in-law where she takes live on Friday afternoons, and then Brad, my husband, goes and picks her up.
[00:26:38] [So sometimes on Fridays I won't work] all day, but I'll get online at like five and work till nine. It's my favorite day of the week, I get to sit my clean house after my house cleaners have come. It's amazing, but I am not trying to put a bunch of emails in people's inboxes on a Friday evening for someone who lives on Pacific Standard Time.
[00:26:59] And so I schedule those out to go out Monday morning and I try and be respectful that way too. So I think you reap what you sew. So if you are going to be sending out emails on Saturday in people's inboxes, you can't get mad when people reply to them.
[00:27:12] Cindy: Yeah, and you train your clients like to that point?
[00:27:18] Jess: Totally.
[00:27:19] Cindy: If every time they send you an email, no matter how big or small, you respond right away, guess what? They're gonna expect a response. We've had clients, lovely, lovely clients, but they're emailing all the freaking time. And so we created a system to say, ‘Okay, here's the document’ Or I will like, if I get your emails, what I'm gonna do is add everything I get.
[00:27:46] I'm not gonna respond unless it's urgent, but I'm gonna add it to our weekly agenda so you know I've seen it. We will talk about it there but if it needs a response, I'll make sure it gets an urgent response. So I find like sometimes clients just like, especially executive directors, they just need to like, get things off their plate.
[00:28:05] They're like, ‘Oh my God, that's taking up space in my mind. I just need to email about it.’ And so we create those boundaries so that I don't feel like I'm constantly emailing you, but that you feel like you can offload it. So there's, there's definitely, and I love your, Friday evening email blitz. Yeah, there's,
[00:28:26] Jess: And I love it Monday mornings.
[00:28:28] Cindy: Yeah.
[00:28:29] Jess: When I'm blowing up your inbox, but yeah.
[00:28:31] Cindy: Boom.
[00:28:32] Jess: Yeah. Whoa, Jess it's really, have some coffee. Yeah. No.
[00:28:36] Cindy: So I think it's like, And actually like, this is kind of like the pre-firing your client phase, which I do think a lot of clients are salvageable, in terms of it doesn't have to get to a point where you fire them if you learn how to put a boundaries and say no to things. So I have heard from a lot of consultants where they. I don't, I really wanna do value based pricing or project based pricing, but then they keep adding to the scope and they keep asking me to do other things. And I'm like, ‘Well, that's a you problem.’ And that sounds really harsh but that's because you don't have the boundaries.
[00:29:18] And so I would rather see you put up the boundaries and say, ‘Okay, that's out of scope. Let's look at what that project would be.’ Or maybe I'm not the right person. I can help you find someone who can do that. But that comes up a lot, which is like again, I think it's like how do we salvage these working relationships before they become a real big problem.
[00:29:40] Jess: Exactly. Exactly. And I think that, at least for me, I struggle with wanting to be like the nice person, the nice guy, likable, you know, amenable, like all the things, and then you become resentful. And then this client who maybe didn't even do something that gnarly is now irking you so, so bad. Yeah. And so I think,
[00:30:02] Cindy: And you're dreaded, right?
[00:30:04] Jess: Yes.
[00:30:04] Cindy: Like you though, you're like, ‘Oh, I don't wanna go see that client.’ ‘I don't wanna have that meeting and I don't wanna do the work.’ And like it's bad for your business.
[00:30:12] Jess: Yes. It's bad. All the way. All the way around. Yes. Yes. So, I mean, we could probably talk about this till the cows come home. But I'm curious for the listeners, like if you're really struggling with how to have a hard conversation or fire a client, like send Cindy and I a dm.
[00:30:31] I mean, I think one of the most helpful things about starting this podcast is we've developed this community for people to have a safe space to workshop these kind of messages or conversations. And so like, don't be shy. Cindy and I are happy and willing to help you out.
[00:30:52] Cindy: Yeah. And I just wanna reemphasize. It's hard. Like no one wants to have these hard conversations. We're all brought up to like, be people pleasers, especially in our sector. And so,
[00:31:06] Jess: like those women.
[00:31:06] Cindy: Yeah. Like, it is, it is really, really hard. And I, you know, we talked about some strategies, but even if you have all the strategies, it also takes a lot of courage. So yeah, we're, we're here to support you. You don't need to work with bad clients. So yeah, you got this.
[00:31:30] Jess: Put that on a t-shirt. Okay, until next time, we will see you on the next episode of Confessions with Jess and Cindy. Have a great day,
[00:31:40] Cindy: See you then.
[00:31:43] Cindy: Thank you again for listening to the Confessions podcast for nonprofit coaches and consultants. If you enjoyed today's episode, which I sure hope you did, you can join your support in one of three ways.
[00:31:55] Jess: Number one, post the screenshot of this episode to your Instagram stories or LinkedIn profile. And tag Cindy and us so we can repost you.
[00:32:03] Cindy: Number two, share this podcast with a fellow nonprofit culture consultant.
[00:32:07] Jess: And number three, leave a positive review on Apple Podcast that we can continue to grow and reach new listeners.
[00:32:14] Cindy: And of course, make sure you subscribe so you can get the latest and greatest interviews as they drop every Thursday.
[00:32:20] Jess: And to our fellow nonprofit coaching and consulting friends, remember we're an open book and here to answer your burning business questions.
[00:32:28]Cindy: See you next time.