“You just have to decide how long am I going to be a hamster on this wheel and when am I going to stop the wheel and say I want to do meaningful work that really means something to somebody that people are learning and they're growing and they're changed because of the work that you're doing.” - Christal Cherry

Finding purpose and impact with Christal Cherry

Do you ever feel trapped in a never-ending grind in your business and wonder how you can break the cycle?  Christal Cherry, founder of The Board Pro, joins us today to share her journey from being a burned-out fundraiser to a thriving and empowered consultant. Christal shares how you could break free from the hamster wheel and do meaningful work in your business. 

Highlights:

1. Christal's fundraising journey and how she discovered her passion for board consulting

2. The process and pricing of Christal's board recruitment services

3. How to manage client flow in a consultancy business

4. Standing your ground and staying true to your values in your work

5. Growing your email list with intention 

6. Making profit and creating impact with consulting 

Find Us Online:  https://www.confessionswithjessandcindy.com/

Connect with Christal Cherry: 

The Board Pro: https://www.theboardpro.com/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100063945049056

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christal-m-cherry/

Connect with Cindy:

Cindy Wagman Coaching https://cindywagman.com/

The Good Partnership https://www.thegoodpartnership.com/

Connect with Jess: 

Out In the Boons: https://www.outintheboons.me

Transcript:

00:00:00 Cindy: Welcome to the Confessions podcast. I'm Cindy Wagman.

00:00:03 Jess: And I'm Jess Campbell, where two former in house nonprofit pros turn coaches and consultants to purpose driven organizations.

00:00:11 Cindy: After years of building up our separate six figure businesses from scratch, we've thrown a lot of spaghetti at the wall and have lived to see what sticks.

00:00:20 Jess: We're on a mission to help other nonprofit coaches and consultants looking to start or scale their own businesses past the six figure mark by pulling back the curtain.

00:00:30 Cindy: Whether you're still working inside a nonprofit and thinking of one day going out on your own or you've been running your consulting business for years, you understand that working with nonprofits is just different. We're giving you access to the business leaders who serve nonprofits as their clients. You know, the people who truly get it.

00:00:52 Jess: No more gatekeeping, no more secrets. This podcast is going to give you an inside look at what running a successful nonprofit coaching and consulting business looks like. Basically, we're asking people how much money they make, how they get paid, and what has and hasn't worked in their businesses.

00:01:11 Cindy: Listen in as these leaders share their insights, their numbers, and the good, the bad and the ugly when it comes to building a nonprofit coaching or consulting business. We're going to empower you to make the power moves that give you the income and freedom you set out to create from day one.

00:01:28 Jess: You ready? Let's go.

00:01:32 Jess: Crystal, what would you say is the most unexpected challenge of running your own business?

00:01:38 Christal: I think the infrastructure and the organization that's required of you to run a business. I'm a recovering fundraiser, and so when I thought about becoming an entrepreneur, I just thought, "Oh, I can take everything that I've learned as a fundraiser, work with boards and it'll be hunky dory." Well, three years in now I realize that running a business is a lot of work and just having infrastructure in place, making sure, particularly as it relates to finances and we could talk more about that, but just making sure that right now, I'm real mindful about taxes because it's tax season, right? Making sure that for every gig that I book, I'm taking account how much taxes I'm going to have to pay for that assignment, which is not something that I thought about before. So I think the infrastructure that it really takes to be an entrepreneur, you really have to have a business mindset and know what that means.

00:02:38 Jess: We're going to get into all the details. And for everyone who's just joining us on Confessions with Jess and Cindy, we have one of my favorite and most referred consultants on the podcast today, Christal Cherry from The Board Pro, here to talk about the insides of her business. Thanks for being such an open book and joining us today, Christal.

00:03:02 Christal: Absolutely, I'm delighted to be here.

00:03:05 Jess: So let's back up. You said you've been at this for three years. You are recovering fundraiser. Can you walk us through your journey from in house fundraiser to nonprofit consultant?

00:03:16 Christal: Sure. So I had been serving as a frontline fundraiser for I guess about 23 years. I had worked in several sectors of fundraising, and so I had worked my first 10 years of my career in higher ed, worked with a lot of colleges and universities, and then I adopted a baby. It took a break, and when I came back, I decided to work in the face to face space. And so I worked at a couple of seminaries, still in education, but working with pastors and bishops and elders, and that was a whole nother animal. And then after that, they decided to go into human services and worked with the homeless and organizations that served hunger gaps and education gaps and then decided to be a consultant, work at a consulting firm as a fundraiser. And so I was all over the map when it came to fundraising. After 23 years, I was burnt out. I wanted to do something else. I just felt like there was another way for me to use the skills that I had acquired over the last 23 years and still be relevant and still help nonprofits. I wanted to stay in a nonprofit space. And so I kept thinking where can I land? Where can I use everything that I've learned and still make an impact?

00:04:23 Christal: And I kept thinking about those board meetings that I had sat in. And I just remember some of the faces, the confusion, the apathy, the dread like, "I really want to be out of here. I want to go home and cook dinner. I need to be at the gym. What are my kids doing at home?" I can just see it in their faces. And I thought, these folks are not engaged. They don't know how to raise money. They don't know what questions to ask the CEO. They just don't know what to do. And so I thought, "AHA! That could be where I can take all that I've learned in terms of building relationships and telling the story and advocating for and all the things that we know you have to do as a fundraiser." Those things still seem apply in board work and really reiterate the important role that board members have and the power that they have, empowering them, making them realize you have power to make real change and you need to take this position that you've accepted seriously. And so that's kind of how I landed where I did. I love the work. It makes my heart throb because I get to work with some incredible organizations with lots of different missions, small ones, big ones. I work with animals, babies, kids, and old people. So I'm all over the place, the environment, cats, whatever it is.

00:05:45 Jess: I love it. I love it so much. And I also want to commend you. I think that whether you noticed it or not, you picking the lane of boards specifically was so smart. Even the name of your business, right. The Board Pro. When anyone comes to me asking about how do I grow my board, how do I fix my board, how do I get my board to fundraise, I think of you because that is the lane that you picked. And I'm just curious as we start our conversation today, if that was intentional, if you thought that or you just kind of lucked out, tell us about that.

00:06:31 Christal: Once I made the decision to do it, I was all in. Once the bell went off and the light came on, I was like, "This is it, and I'm going to do it." And I had no idea what to expect. I didn't know how I would be received. I didn't know how I was going to market myself. But I just felt like this was the lane I was going to be in, and I was just all in. And I remember being on the phone talking to my sister, trying to figure out the name of the business. We were like, " Oh, the board guru, the board expert, the board..." And we just going around and rally. She was like, "No, that one, not that one, not that one." And then I said, "What about the Board Pro?" And she was like, "That's it." I was like, "Okay. That's it." It was literally like that.

00:07:13 Jess: And here you are.

00:07:14 Christal: And here I am. Yeah. So it's been a great ride for me.

00:07:18 Cindy: Awesome. One of the questions we always ask on the podcast is, how do you get paid now? So what are the products or services that you offer your clients?

00:07:32 Christal: Yeah. So now the biggest demand for sure is, how do I recruit diverse board members? That is what I get. All day long, everyone wants to bring in new voices, fresh voices. The pressure to bring in diverse voices is huge, and the timing is just right. The world has changed. We've gone through so much, and I think many nonprofits are realizing, "Wait a minute, we have not done a good job in this area. We need to really take a hard look at who we are, who we are serving, and who's at the top," right? Who's making decisions about these people, about the environment, about the animals. And we don't have diverse voices. We've had Ted on the board for 36 years. It's time for Ted to go. It's time--

00:08:19 Cindy: Hi, Ted. So do organizations hire you? Do you do recruitment? Do you do pre-work to prepare the board so that they can go out and do their own recruitment? What does that look like? And do you have a sense of how much of your business falls into those different buckets?

00:08:41 Christal: Yes, yes and yes. It is my heaviest lift. It requires the most of me, particularly if I'm doing a search outside of Atlanta, where I live. So, Atlanta, I'm familiar with the local resources. I have connections here. So if I'm doing a search here, I have a little bit of easier time knowing who I have in mind for this board, where I should go to find but I'm doing a search in Keller, Texas, like I did last year. I have to go and immerse myself into that community virtually, right? And so for that client, they wanted board members who lived in Keller, right? And they wanted diverse board members who lived in Keller. And so I learned early that Keller is not a diverse city, right? It's a predominantly white city. And so I really had to be creative. And so I reached out to the bBack and Hispanic Chamber of Commerce there. I found that there were a couple of big mega churches there. There was a Korean one, there was a Black one. I reached out to some civic groups that were in that area. I found out that there was a couple of chapters of a couple of fraternities and sororities, Black fraternities, sororities who were there. And so I really had to go. I called a radio station. I was just all over the place.

00:09:55 Christal: I went on LinkedIn. I went in Clubhouse. I just did whatever I had to do to find the people who I felt lived in that area who could be good prospects for this board. And so who has time to do that? Most board members don't have time to do that kind of research and that kind of legwork. And so that's why they hire me. It takes six months to a year for me to do that. Depending on how many board members, if you need two or three board members, I might be able to do it for you in six months if you're looking for six board members, because once I find them, then I have to review their resumes, find references, just like you would do when you're hiring someone. I have to set up interviews. I interview with them. And then I'm trying to decide, do they have the right skill set? But even before I do that, guys, I have to meet with the organization, do a visioning session with them. Like who's on your board now? Let's fill out a matrix. Let's find out who's on your board. What are you looking for? Why are you looking for those individuals? What does having a diverse board mean? What is having a Latino on your board going to add? What is having someone who is disabled on your board going to add? Or someone who is homeless? Tell me why you want to have those individuals on your board. What are they going to do for you and what are you going to do for them? Because it's a two way street, right? So I have to let them know, this is a wonderful board. This is what you're going to get out of it, and this is what they expect of you. So before to even do all that searching stuff, I have to get all that stuff out of the way.

00:11:19 Jess: And how do you price your services? Because I know when my husband's really great friend from college is a super successful search agent, runs a search agency for tech jobs in Silicon Valley. And I remember last spring break, we met up with him and his family at the Santa Barbara Zoo, and I was asking him questions, and he has like a zero pay policy. If he doesn't find a fit, he doesn't get paid. And if he does, I think he makes like 20% of the annualized salary or something like that. But he's like it's literally no risk for them. But this is not a paid role. This is a board seat. So I'm curious, how do you price your services, especially if you're going to enter in a six, sometimes twelve month relationship? That sounds like a lot of work.

00:12:14 Christal: Yeah, well, I get paid regardless. I've not had any difficulty finding... Well, I'm not going to say I've not had any difficulty. I've not had an assignment where I've not identified the right individuals to serve on a board, and they were not happy yet. I have not had that experience yet. So after the time frame is over, if I present a slate of six candidates and none of them are good candidates, I do extend the search another three months at no cost because I do want to make sure that my clients are happy. I do want to make sure that I am finding the right people that are going to help move that organization from where it is to where they want it to be. But paying me is not an option. So that is what I share in my contract. I also ask for either all of it upfront or 60/40. It just depends on the organization. So I have some flat rates that I charge, but I'm a softie, right? So I will take a look at your budget. And so I am not going to charge a $600,000 organization the same I'm going to charge a $14 million organization. And I have to make a decision. Do I want to do all of this legwork? Because the work is the same whether the organization's budget is 600,000 or whether the organization's budget is 14,000,00.

00:13:29 Christal: First of all. Do I have the bandwidth to do it? Am I passionate enough about the work that I really want to do all this for organizations who can't really afford to pay me what I'm normally worth? And sometimes I will, sometimes I won't. Sometimes I consider it pro bono. Sometimes things are slow. Sometimes I think, "Okay, well, this might lead to additional work if I do a good job." So it just depends. But I do have some flat rates that I normally charge, and they usually range anywhere between $15,000 and $35,000 for a search because as I've mentioned, it's a lot of work.

00:14:05 Cindy: Which leads me to the question, how do you manage how many clients can you actually work with at any given time? And how do you manage the sort of client flow so that you have clients when you need them and you're busy when you want to be, and hopefully you'll get some downtime too? How do you plan that out?

00:14:27 Christal: Yeah, I wish I could say I had this magic formula. I don't think I do. I mean, I have six clients right now. Two of them are search clients. And so I don't normally take on more than three search clients because that's a lot of work. And so sometimes if I have clients like that, I have a whole slew of consultants who I work with. And so I have some who I will call and say, "Hey, guys, I need you to help get these interviews on the schedule for me." Or I need you to conduct I've had a couple of my... really, people who I trust conduct a couple of interviews for me if I couldn't be there, do some prospect research for me. Because if I have a client that's looking for C suite level board members, I mean, board members who can make $100,000 donations because I have and so it's harder to find people like that. I mean, I can put some announcements on social media and I can get folks who say, "Yeah, I can make a $2,500 or $3,000, $100,000 donation is a little more difficult to find. But I do have a project research company that I work with and she helps me to identify those individuals. So sometimes I have to contract out some things to help me to get the job done and I try to incorporate all of that in the price.

00:15:41 Jess: And do you utilize a waitlist strategy for when you're booked up but you have more work than you're coming in? Or do you have a referral strategy where if you're filled up and you pass business off, you get a kickback for basically handing a client on to a silver platter for someone else? You can only do as much work as you can do. So I'm just curious how you... like Cindy was saying, make plans or make revenue off of those moments when something's wrapping up and you have a little bit of space in your calendar.

00:16:19 Christal: So I don't have an official referral plan just yet, even though you and I have talked about it and I think it's a wonderful idea. But I have on occasion passed off something that I don't have time for. Like I said, I have a slew, I have a network of... as you guys know, I have a network of consultants and professionals, fundraising professionals and board professionals who I can tap into at any given time and say, "Hey guys, this is a small one, I can't handle it," because a lot of my consultant friends still work full time, right? And so they can only do something small, right? And so I might say, "Listen, this is something you can do in your sleep. I don't have the bandwidth or the time to do it. It's not a lot of money. It might be three, four, $5,000, but extra coins in your pocket, you're interested." And most of the time people will say yes. So it's not an official like I don't have a contract. I just kind of call you and just like, "Look, I got something for you." Interested. But I am going to, I think, start implementing a little more formal because I think that that's a good idea.

00:17:21 Cindy: Awesome. It is a good idea.

00:17:23 Jess: It is a good idea. I'm like, "Crystal, you need to start not just giving away business."

00:17:27 Christal: I know, I know. No.

00:17:30 Jess: If you're not, you should start a waitlist and then just keep the business for yourself. And if someone... I mean, you're doing most of the work and passing that off. So yeah.

00:17:39 Cindy: I'm just going to say it again.

00:17:30 Christal: You know, and I think, you guys, you asked me earlier about, I think the balance between... Because right now, it just depends. I have a virtual assistant who I will tap into every once in a while to do some things for me. But if you're trying to do proposals and you're trying to do contracts and you're trying to send emails and you're trying to do all the follow up and all the things you need, it's hard when you're trying to work, right? And so I think having that balance, you really do need, and I really do need an administrative assistant on a regular basis. It's just a matter of making sure that I'm budgeting that person in when I'm pricing out my assignments. Because you're right, I spend a lot of time creating proposals, which I've learned to have one template, change it in and after two or three iterations, you have to pay me because it takes a lot of time to do a proposal.

00:18:27 Christal: I had this one prospective client that I must have changed that proposal four or five different times. And then after I met with him three or four different times, and then after that he said, "We're going to defer this for six months." And I thought, "I know I have given you at least 3 hours of my time meeting with you and revising this proposal." And I lost money doing that. And so I've learned that my time is valuable. And so after two iterations of the proposal, if you want another iteration, you have to pay me for it. So there are some things that you just learn the hard way. It's not something I knew going in, but just knowing that how much time I'm spending and investing and I have to start charging for it for the time it's taking me away from the other things I need to do. So that's the hardest part is I think, learning how to balance that, knowing when to say I need to call my admin and have her do this research, or I need to have my admin and have her send these proposals. Of course, when it's you, you want to make sure you're doing everything right. The Board Pro is my baby, my name. So I want to make sure that everything is being done on the up and up and that I'm coming across a certain way, and I want to be professional, but sometimes you got to let some stuff go.

00:19:36 Jess: Okay, time to play another round of rapid fire questions with our guest, Christal Cherry from the Board Pro. Christal, are you ready to play?

00:19:44 Christal: I am.

00:19:46 Jess: Okay, great. You said in your episode that you live in Atlanta. What is the hole in the wall kind of secret joint that locals go to? What's that restaurant?

00:20:00 Christal: It's a place called the Spice House. It's kind of in a [inaudible] area of town, but the food is delicious, and they got a hometown band that plays reggae and stuff. I love it.

00:20:10 Jess: Oh, amazing. Marking that. We didn't get to speak so much about this in your interview, but you host a group called F 3. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

00:20:23 Christal: Yeah, thank you for asking. Yes. It's a network of women of color who work in the nonprofit sector, mostly in fundraising that kind of formed organically right before COVID. And now we're a thing. We were just a group of women who were kicking it and getting together, and now we're like a formal membership 501C6 kind of thing. Yeah, 60 women in 25 states and in Canada, and it's wonderful. I absolutely love them all.

00:20:53 Jess: If you fit that profile, you should definitely reach out to Christal. And then for my last question, people might not know this about you, but you authored a children's book, and I'm curious what was one of the books you used to love reading or your son used to love reading with you when he was younger? Because I know he's a bit more grown up now.

00:21:16 Christal: Yeah, well, as a kid, I was a Curious George. I'm dating myself. I was a Curious George. I love that little monkey. I don't know what it was.

00:21:25 Jess: So cute.

00:21:26 Christal: I love Curious George. He was just funny. And, oh, my son, over the years, he loved Peppa the Pig. He loved the Wildcraft. He went through all kinds of stages. So, yeah, those are some of the children's books.

00:21:45 Jess: And for our listeners, what is the name of your children's book?

00:21:50 Christal: Oh, it's Mac and Cheese: Being Different Is Okay. It's available on Amazon for $1299.

00:21:55 Jess: Yeah, we read it in my house. It's a good one.

00:21:58 Christal: Thank you.

00:21:58 Jess: Thanks, Crystal, for playing.

00:22:00 Christal: You're welcome.

00:22:04 Cindy: I want to talk a little bit more about the proposal process because I think that that is a pain point for people working in our sector. And after that third iteration, do you even want to work with that organization anymore? How has it been going as you put up boundaries, like, are organizations willing to pay or do you want to work with them? Are you just putting up barriers for them moving forward? I just think this is such a critical conversation. Do you respond to RFPs? How do you manage the workload that goes into getting those clients?

00:22:46 Christal: Yeah, I do respond to some RFPs, but I'm very selective. I just got one the other day and I had to turn down because I just felt like what they were asking for was not in line with how I work, right? And they wanted someone to come in and do DEI work for their board. But to me, it felt performative because they wanted me to come in for 15 minutes at every board meeting for a year and talk about board. And I was like, "For 15? What?" No, one year to three years, I was going to get 15 minutes on the agenda to talk about a topic related to DEI and board work. I was like, "That is not how I get down. I am so sorry. I'm not a good fit for this RFP." So you just have to sometimes realize where you are and who you are. And you're not going to throw me on the agenda for 15 minutes and rush me to talk about DEI work. Oh, no. So you have to know what proposals are right for you and which ones are not. I wasn't even going to spend any time trying to put a proposal together for that one. So you have to first be able to do that.

00:23:44 Christal: And then second of all, I do have a template that I use now that has all my stuff in it, my name, my title, so I don't have to redo that. And so there's a couple of slides that I do. I usually do a PDF or a power deck. There's a couple of slides, of course, that I'll change the [mission], the engagement description, who my contact is. So that is already done. But even with that, that is still a lot of work. And what happens is people try to nickel and dime. So, for instance, I did an RFP recently and I have a whole process for what I do, but it was like, "Well, if we take this piece out, we'll do this, we'll create the application or we'll do the research. Can you take this amount? How much you do that?"

00:24:24 Christal: And I'm like, "No, I'm not doing that." This is my process. This is how I do it. And if you want to work with me, then this is how we're going to do it. If you don't like this, then you need to find another consultant. And so really being able to kind of stand your ground and kind of stand in your own truth about what you're about, how you do things and how you want it to go. So, for instance, I went back and forth with a client recently about whose email should go on an announcement. They wanted to create an internal email to put on the announcement. And I'm really clear that I want people to know that I'm an external consultant, and you need to know that, too, doing this search for you. I am not a staff member. You can't micromanage me. You can't make me use SurveyMonkey if I don't want to use SurveyMonkey. That's not how I use it. That's not how I do it. So we should have had this conversation early on, but you signed the contract, and if you want to work with me, this is how it's going to have to go. And so you really have to learn to stand your ground about who you are and how you work.

00:25:28 Jess: This is so good. This is gold. I think what we're really talking about, though, is finding your ideal clients. And I'm curious about what you've done to get visible and market yourself so that you are, in fact, attracting your ideal customer. Can you share a little bit about that?

00:25:48 Christal: Yeah, and I wish I could say that I've done that. I don't know. My ideal customer, of course, is the person who is going to do the work that's going to pay on time, that has a board that's going to participate and be responsive to my emails. I mean, that's the ideal client. And sometimes it's just really difficult to get all of that. I am trying to be more intentional to be in spaces where the decision makers are. And I think I talked about you, Jess. So I have this big list of people that I've gotten from over the years, just from different places, different webinars, different speaking engagements. I've gotten a list. Right. And they're just a mixture of people, probably directors of development, board members, executive directors, somebody who works in the accounting department, a volunteer somewhere. And many of these people are not decision makers.

00:26:40 Christal: Yeah, it's nice that they know who I am. They went to my webinar. They loved it. Thank you so much. But can you sign my contract? Can you look at this proposal and tell me whether or not you're going to bring me on? Those are the people whose attention I really need. And so I'm trying to extract out from my list based on what I know. Sometimes they'll have emails that say Executive Director so and so. I'm definitely pulling those emails out of the list and creating a separate list of individuals who I know are CEOs, executive directors, and boutiques. Those are my three personas and/or nonprofit hubs like Neon One, Keela Qgiv, Bloomerang. Network For Good. Those are other hubs that hire me to come in because they have customers that they want to show. We have experts who have advice to give you in the field of boards. And if you buy into this webinar that we have software that's going to help you to manage your board portal. So whatever it is. Those are my personas. How am I going to get in front of those individuals? So that is what I'm working on now. It's good to have this list with 10,000 people, okay. People know who you are. That's great. Who are the person signing your contracts? That is the attention. That's the person whose attention I want. And that's the challenge of making sure you get in front of those people. And I have someone who's doing research for me now to identify executive directors and nonprofits all over the country.

00:28:10 Jess: When you're talking about your list, are you talking about your email list? Okay. And so you've grown that email list, I think you said, to around 10,000 people from various speaking gigs. And what else?

00:28:23 Christal: Well, I wish it was still 10,000. I mean, over the years, particularly during COVID people were leaving jobs so fast and so quickly. A lot of emails were no longer valid people unsubscribe. So it's no longer 10,000. I wish I could say it was still that high, but it's a few thousand.

00:28:39 Jess: And again, but the way that you've mostly accumulated them is from attaching yourself to other audience, showing up as the expert.

00:28:47 Christal: Oh, yes. Yes.

00:28:49 Jess: And I think you mentioned a lot of it has been through the tech platforms.

00:28:53 Christal: Yes. Because they will sometimes, particularly if they can't pay me, I've learned to negotiate other things. So, for instance, if one of those companies reach out to me and say, "We love you to do a webinar, we can't pay you." So my next question is, "Okay, so what's in it for me? I'm going to do it for you because the exposure is great, but are you willing to provide the list of names of individuals who register for the webinar?" Because often they'll have 6700 people who will register, right? And so some say yes, some say no. Some say we'll create a list because we want them to buy into it. We'll ask people if they want to stay in touch with you, and some will just say we'll give you the entire list. So over the years, if they give me a list of 400 people, 500 people a shot, I'm downloading that into Wix because I use Wix for all of my emails. And then that's how my list has grown.

00:29:43 Jess: And I've never done that. I haven't done a lot of trainings with the tech company. So I'm just curious, how have you seen that work for you? Because technically, those people are opting in for some sort of learning experience, not necessarily like join my email list. So I'm just also curious what your feedback on the quality of those subscribers has been in your experience.

00:30:06 Christal: Right, which again is why I'm trying to kind of streamline a little bit because I realized I got everybody and their grandmother in my database and while it's good that Uncle Henry is in the room, Uncle Henry's last sign of the contract. I love Uncle Henry but... So I'm really trying to be more targeted in who it is that I'm approaching and who it is I'm in front of. And again, that takes time.

00:30:32 Cindy: As you get more targeted, are you still finding those large.. Is it exposure still, or do you think of this kind of as a funnel? Whereas first you get out here and then you grow your list and then you mine your list for the people who are decision makers, or are you adjusting your approach, moving away from the webinars and stuff like that to more specific targeting?

00:30:58 Christal: So, you guys know, during the pandemic, I was on every... you probably guys were sick of seeing I was on every webinar or panel that you could take. People call--

00:31:05 Cindy: We're never sick of seeing you. But...

00:31:08 Christal: But I was like, "Yes, I'll be there. Yes, sign me up. Yes, put me in." Because I was just trying to get my name out there to not only be seen as a credible source, but for me to learn because I'm on the panel with all these other great people and I'm thinking, "Oh, wow, that was really cool what you just said. Oh, I really learned something new." And so I was watching all of you guys. I'm watching Jess, I'm watching Cindy. I'm watching Julia, right? I'm watching Tayla. I'm watching all Tim Therriot, all the folks who all the players who are out there, and I'm watching what you're all doing. So that first couple of years, I was everywhere and I said yes, whether I was getting paid or not, right? But it worked because it did help me to get on the map. This year, I'm not doing as much because first of all, it's exhausting. Second of all, I had to really decide what is the return on investment for me for doing this? Is it really going to help me in the long run? It's a great panel. I probably could say something that will resonate with somebody, but at the end of the day when I come off, when I hit exit, what's going to happen? And if I couldn't answer that question, then sometimes I just have to say, "No, I can't. I can't do it." Now if you don't pay me. You want me to be a keynote to come to fly to las Vegas? I had a couple nonprofits do last year, flew me to las Vegas, put me up, they had the guy waiting for me. I was so impressed with myself, I said, "You go, girl." I came off the airplane, the guy was standing there with a little side with my name. I was like, "I'm the keynote."

00:32:40 Christal: And drove me in the car, took me, I had the nice big president suite at the hotel. I was like, 'Well, I'll be this, look at you, girl." So that. Absolutely. You're going to pay me $10,000 to come and speak? For sure, I'm there. You go bring your driver. He's going to take me to the hotel. But these little small things where we're going to pay you $350, I can't do that anymore.

00:33:08 Jess: And you don't need to because you just told us that in any given year, you're trying to work with six organizations. And so I know you would work with more but--

00:33:18 Christal: I was going to say I have six organizations now, but this is just March.

00:33:24 Jess: Wow.

00:33:25 Christal: A few of them will probably be done. I'm trying to wrap up one now so that I can bring on a few more.

00:33:30 Jess: Yeah. So as you look forward towards your next evolution of business, right, you're no longer a baby. You've been at this a few years. You did this thing where you were all the places all the time, everyone come look at me, and now you're even trying to get more narrow. So I'm just curious about what your future goals are, what your future tactics might be in terms of really narrowing in on those ideal customers who can, as you say, sign the contract.

00:34:04 Christal: So one thing I'm doing is... I had to after a while, you guys both know this. After you're doing this work and you're a hamster in the wheel, at some point you kind of have to just stop and say, "Okay, what am I doing? Is it having impact? Do I care anymore? And am I having a good time? And am I making money?" So I have decided that if I come across a client or potential client and I don't really think that they're being authentic about what they want me to, I'm not going to come in and do the dance for you. I can come in and give you the feel about why it's important for you to diversify your board and what a race equity culture looks like and why your board should fundraise in ways that you should engage. But I can do all that with my sleep. If I don't really feel like that you're being authentic about that, that you're just trying to check off a box, I don't want to work with you. It has changed for me because I really want to feel like I'm in the nonprofit sector for a reason. I can go work for a bank. You know what I mean? But I'm in a nonprofit sector because I'm a [purpose.] That's just who I am. I wanted to be a social worker. I wanted to be a teacher. I wanted to be a pastor. That's kind of... from even from little. I'm always like you're always trying to help change somebody or love somebody up or something. That's just who I am, right?

00:35:28 Christal: So I just had to decide, yes, I want to make money because I have a 13 year old to feed. I would like to have a nice life but it has to feel right. It has to mean something for me. And so at some point, you just have to decide how long am I going to be a hamster on this wheel and when am I going to stop the wheel and say I want to do meaningful work that really means something to somebody that people are learning and they're growing and they're changed because of the work that you're doing. Because I really take a good look, hard look at my clients now. In that first intake session, I'm asking them a lot of questions. Why isn't your executive director in on these conversations? Where is he or she? We're talking about changing your board, changing your culture, and I don't even know who your executive you haven't invited him or her to the meeting. That's a problem for me. I'm starting to ask different questions now and really being more discerning about who I take on and what that will look like for me, because it changes you. I've changed so much. I've learned so much about myself, and I too, want to feel good when I finish an assignment, it's not just the board that I'm working with. I want to feel like I did good work. And so it's no longer just on that wheel. So I'm changing that.

00:36:46 Christal: I'm also trying to manage my time differently, right? So I'm saving more time because I'm telling you, those first two years when I tell you I was sitting at this computer every day like this, my son was like, "Mom." I was like, "Can't talk now." I was like... this is 01:00 in the morning from 08:00 this morning. So now I don't work on Fridays. I don't start until noon on Wednesdays. I may or may not work on Mondays. It just depends. I just save more time. This morning I got up, I was like not feeling. I need to stretch, I need to pray, I need to walk my dog, right? So I just took the morning off. So I'm learning now to prioritize my time, because then I can come to this work full. If I'm empty and I'm drained, I can't tell you about your board right now because I'm hungry and I'm depressed and I got to pee. You know what I mean? I need to be in my full, you know what I mean? In all my goodness, to come to you, to be able to give you good advice and coaching and counsel on how to make your board better and to even care about it. Because sometimes I'm like blah, blah, blah.

00:38:01 Jess: I mean, if that's not the most relatable thing.

00:38:01 Christal: As I've evolved as a consultant, things are just different. Things feel different. I'm looking at it differently. I want different things out of it. But you have to kind of come to that on your own. You have to be able to look a client in the face and say, yes, my fee is $30,000, and I want it all up front.

00:38:1 Cindy: I love it. Love it.

00:38:24 Christal: And I'm just like that is the way it's going down. I'm not going to be a bill collector running behind you when this time is over and the urgency is no longer there for you. And now I'm trying to get your accounting department to process the invoice. We're not doing that. I've done that already. I'm not doing that anymore. So if you want to work with me, then you have to pay me upfront. And if it's a small organization, I might say, give me 60% upfront, and then the next two or three months, then you pay me the rest. I've learned because I've been burned.

00:38:52 Cindy: Yeah, okay. Literally, we could talk for hours more. I have questions, but we don't have time. And so I want to make sure that we have time for our final question, which is this podcast is called Confessions. And so we always ask, what's one confession for your business or you as a business owner of something that you want to improve? You know, you need to improve or work on that you are reluctant to admit or that's coming down the pipes for you.

00:38:29 Christal: I confess that I had a client that I just didn't like. You didn't have a client. You just don't like the people you're working for. I didn't like the person who hired me. And so there were a couple of times when I was kind of late to a few meetings. I just wasn't motivated. And so, one time I took a meeting while driving in my car when I wasn't totally present, and I was just like, "This is so foul, Christie, you know?" I just didn't like these people. I was so glad when that assignment was over. But you're supposed to be professional all the time, whether you like the client or not. But we're people, right? But in that particular case, I don't feel like I gave it my all because I just wanted to be done with them. I didn't like them. After a while.

00:40:13 Jess: We've all been there.

00:40:14 Cindy: Relatable.

00:40:18 Jess: Christal, thank you. Thank you for confessing. Thank you for your transparency. You are a delight. It was definitely them, not you on that one. For folks listening who maybe want to refer business to you or maybe get in touch, what is the best way for people to reach out?

00:40:39 Christal: Yeah. So my website is theboardpro.com. I am also on Facebook and I also am on LinkedIn, so you can find me all three ways.

00:40:52 Jess: We appreciate your time. Thank you so much.

00:40:53 Christal: Thank you for having me, guys. I love being with you all.

00:40:59 Cindy: Thank you again for listening to the Confessions podcast for nonprofit coaches and consultants. If you enjoyed today's episode, which I sure hope you did, you can show your support in one of three ways.

00:41:23 Jess: Number one, post a screenshot of this episode to your Instagram stories or LinkedIn profile and tag Cindy and I, so we can repost you.

00:41:19 Cindy: Number two, share this podcast with a fellow nonprofit coach or consultant.

00:41:24 Jess: And number three, leave a positive review on Apple podcasts, so we can continue to grow and reach new listeners.

00:41:30 Cindy: And, of course, make sure you subscribe so you can get the latest and greatest interviews as they drop every Thursday.

00:41:37 Jess: And to our fellow nonprofit coaching and consulting friends, remember, we're an open book book and here to answer your burning biz questions.

00:41:44 Cindy: See you next time.