"I'm selling unapologetically through the whole thing and that's something I've really had to work on and work towards." - Christina Tzavaras Edwards

The Nonprofit Consultant's Unapologetic Guide to Selling and Scaling

Jess and I just sat down with Christina Tzavaras Edwards for this episode that will light a fire under your consulting business. Christina has built a multiple six-figure nonprofit consulting firm over the last 15 years by unapologetically embracing abundance in all its forms. If you're ready to stop playing small in your business and start embracing abundance, listen to this episode. Christina will inspire you to claim what you're worth, follow your passion, and get comfortable with being different. The opportunities are endless if we have the courage to color outside the lines.

• Sell unapologetically. Don't be afraid to talk about what you're selling and promote your offers often.Staying consistent with selling is the key to growth. If it turns some people off, so be it—your true people will appreciate the value.

• Find your sweet spot. Whether it's high-ticket or low-ticket, courses or one-on-one work, choose what lights you up and go all in. There's room for us all, so don't get caught up comparing yourself to what others are doing. Focus on what works for YOU.

• Build your list and turn up the volume. Email marketing has been essential for scaling my business, and the more you email, the more opportunities you will have to serve. Don't be afraid to be visible and share your message loudly and often. The right folks will tune in.

• Collaborate for growth. Look for partnerships with other consultants to get in front of new audiences. Make it easy for them by handling the details, and be generous with commissions and bonuses. Successful collaborations are a win-win.

• Keep learning and embracing your "weird." The path of a nonprofit consultant is one of constant evolution. Learn from those further along, but also trust your instincts. Your unique experiences and perspective are what allow you to serve in a way no one else can.

Be unapologetic and confident in selling your products or services. It’s essential to have a belief in the value of what you are offering and to not shy away from promoting it to your audience.

Find Us Online:  https://www.confessionswithjessandcindy.com/

Connect with Christina Tzavaras Edwards:

Splendid Consulting: www.splendidatl.com

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christinatza/  

YouTube:  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCphQIax9fJdZ6t77EnPVp4A

Connect with Cindy:

Cindy Wagman Coaching: https://cindywagman.com/

The Good Partnership: https://www.thegoodpartnership.com/

Connect with Jess: 

Out In the Boons: https://www.outintheboons.me/

Transcript:

00:00:00 Cindy: Welcome to the Confessions Podcast. I'm Cindy Wagman.

00:00:03 Jess: And I'm Jess Campbell. We're two former in-house nonprofit pros turned coaches and consultants to purpose-driven organizations.

00:00:11 Cindy: After years of building up our separate six-figure businesses from scratch, we've thrown a lot of spaghetti at the wall and have lived to see what sticks.

00:00:20 Jess: We're on a mission to help other nonprofit coaches and consultants looking to start or scale their own businesses past the six-figure mark by pulling back the curtain.

00:00:30 Cindy: Whether you're still working inside a non-profit and thinking of one day going out on your own, or you've been running your consulting business for years, you understand that working with nonprofits is just different. We're giving you access to the business leaders who serve non-profits as their clients. You know, the people who truly get it.

00:00:52 Jess: No more gatekeeping, no more secrets. This podcast is going to give you an inside look at what running a successful nonprofit coaching and consulting business looks like. Basically, we're asking people how much money they make, how they get paid, and what has and hasn't worked in their businesses.

00:01:11 Cindy: Listen in as these leaders share their insights, their numbers, and the good, the bad, and the ugly when it comes to building a nonprofit coaching or consulting business. We're going to empower you to make the power moves that give you the income and freedom you set out to create from day one.

00:01:28 Jess: You ready? Let's go. Hey, Cindy.

00:01:34 Cindy: Hey, Jess.

00:01:35 Jess: Are you excited as me to have this chat?

00:01:38 Cindy: Yeah. So fun, fun story. When I started consulting, I was sort of looking around the sector to like, who else was out there doing interesting things or maybe like, looking at digital first or anyone who was building a presence or a one-to-many business. And our guest today, Christina Edwards, was one of the very first people I connected with years ago as someone who was really building that one-to-many model early, early on. So to say I'm excited is maybe an understatement.

00:02:19 Jess: Well, we've said her name a couple of times, but it is our honor and pleasure to welcome Christina Edwards of Splendid Consulting to the show today. Hi, Christina.

00:02:29 Christina: Hi, thanks for having me. I remember when you guys launched the podcast, and I was in your DMs going, you guys, this is so good. It's like the thing we all kind of want to know is like the peek behind the curtain. So thanks for having me.

00:02:42 Jess: Oh my gosh. Well, thanks for being such an open book about your business. So let's just get into it. Can you tell us what you do and how you get paid?

00:02:51 Christina: Yeah. So I feel like it is an ever evolving thing on how I would answer that question. Right now, I have hit, finally, I would say, a sweet spot in answering that question. So I get paid through courses, online courses, that are one-to-many for nonprofits and social impact businesses. And then I coach one-on-one. I have a small private practice that's pretty full right now that I'm trying to figure out, when do you put on a waitlist? And that's how I get paid. So it's a nice mix of both.

00:03:25 Jess: I'm muted. Okay, amazing. Can you tell us a little bit about what your price points are for your various courses and how many do you have now?

00:03:34 Christina: Yeah, I think I have more than I realize. I would say that I do have two signature courses at this point. So I have an email marketing course called Easy Emails for Impact. And then I have a digital marketing slash online fundraising slash influencer marketing course called Amplify Social Impact. Those are like my core courses. Those are about $1,000 when I… If you go into my funnel, or if you participate in a live launch, then I will have a discount. So it's anywhere from like $200 to $400 off depending on the time of year.

00:04:05 Christina: But full price is $1,000. And then I have,a just lovely myriad. I think the more that I like, I'm onto myself as a creative, the more I'm like, oh, I just I really do like to just keep helping and creating and getting out there. So I have low-ticket, and I would say mid-ticket, and I have tripwires and all sorts of small offers underneath that. So I have a $7 workshop that does really, really well. I have 40 $57 workshops, things like that, things under $100. Lots of things in that space as well.

00:04:40 Cindy: I love it. I'm sure Jess and I both have lots of questions, but I want like, can you talk a little bit about just your funnels and how you, how they work for you? I think that we have this idea that, or the way funnels are sort of sold to us is very linear process. And I'm super curious because I don't haven't seen that necessarily work out for that many people in our sector. But I feel like if it's working for anyone, it's going to work for you, but maybe not. So tell us a little like, can you break down the funnels a little bit and even talk about sort of that passive funnel when someone enters your list versus a live launch?

00:05:29 Christina: Totally. So very simply, I have two webinar funnels that go to those signature courses, like those higher ticket courses. Both have different webinars. I just spent this past week updating, like doing some major housekeeping to one of mine. And it was, you know, I was grinding through it. And it was painful, just because I wanted a refresh, the opt-in page and I wanted to refresh the webinar itself. And so, you know, but previous to that hadn't done that in about a year. So basically you sign up for my free training, it takes you to a page that has a free training, a masterclass on that topic. And then in that, you go through either a five or seven day email period where you can join my course. So I try and give, like high value of the thing, but that if you want more, if you want templates, if you want support, if you want the Facebook community, then there's a super sweet discount and usually a boatload of awesome bonuses as an incentive to join. But it is like a limited time that, you know, from start to finish. So that's the webinar funnel and that I have for both courses.

00:06:36 Jess: So as Cindy was kind of alluding to, yeah, we're sold this kind of idea that when you have funnels as a part of your business, you're chilling on a beach, drinking a mocktail, you're not working, it's just running. And as someone that has a course, Cindy has courses or has had courses or just like any one-to-many program, that has not yet been my experience. I see you nodding, so I'm guessing that's also not your experience. And so I'm wondering if you would tell the fine people, how are you getting people to your funnel? What are the couple of ways that you're attracting potential donors, customers? Clearly, I'm like, in fundraising season. Or getting visible? What's really worked for you?

00:07:25 Christina: So organic, anything from making sure that every single blog on my website has what I would call a freebie, but an image that's like, watch my free masterclass on this topic. So when you get on my website, you shouldn't have to dig around to find my funnel entry point or funnel entry points. Those babies are everywhere. So as simple as that to YouTube, to Pinterest. I just had my VA like a few months ago. I'm like, hey, do you want to go through this course? I will buy the course. Do you want to take the lead? And so we're working on Pinterest for that same purpose. And then ads. So Facebook ads, Instagram ads, that kind of thing.

00:08:07 Christina: So it is like kind of a pronged approach. And I think it's like, it's interesting, because it's part aspirational of like, yeah, I want to be on the beach. And I'm just like watching my Stripe account go ding, ding, ding. And that's not really true. But I will say like, I have been on vacation and had people go through my funnel and have gotten a sale. And it is like, oh, like the thing happened that we were sold. And so for me, it's like less of the like, completely passive and waiting for that piece. And more of when my ideal client needs a solution, she can get it right away. She doesn't have to wait for me to have a live cohort. Like that to me is like, that's the piece that I am constantly working towards is like, how do I get in front of the people who need this right now?

00:08:53 Cindy: I love that. And you know, everyone's going to be wondering, like metrics, like, what, how do you evaluate the funnels and their efficacy? And also, like, besides just you wanting to refresh, you know, what do you, at what point or how do you evaluate when it's time to update things? Those two questions in one, but I'll let you.

00:09:19 Christina: So for Amplify Social, I just did a live launch. It went really well. I had really gone through that webinar and like really turned up the volume on just the whole thing to where I felt really good about it. Changed the name. The content was very, very similar, but I just, I just feel like I took it to the next level. So I knew I wanted that to be in the new, um, in the webinar funnel. So I knew that I wanted to like, that was my reason for making that change. But if something's working well. Don't change it, right? And then the other piece is sometimes, too, I think it's important to say, in this world, I may have somebody who signs up for a webinar in January. They go through the five-day thing. They don't take any action. They hop on my list. They stay in my world. And it might be three launches later where they buy, and they buy big.

00:10:07 Christina: One of my private coaching clients, it cracks me up. In my CRM, I can see him like, when did you get into my world? Years. years and he bought a $7 workshop and now is five figure, like it's just you know, it's like some people just need lots and lots of nurturing and that's okay. And some people are a little bit more like me where I'm like, fast track the solution. I want it now. Add to cart, go. And so both are great, but you do sort of have to keep that visibility piece, is constant. That visibility piece for me, the other piece of how I get in front or how I build the visibility is definitely like JVs, affiliates, getting in front of other people's audiences. That's been a huge part of the growth there.

00:10:47 Cindy: Okay, we're gonna have to come talk about that in a minute. But okay, also, just like underscoring that point around not everyone just goes to the funnel and buys, they can be on your list for years, like Jess and I both had that experience. But I just want to sort of put the cap on this final thought, which is, like you said, if it's not broken, don't fix it. what would you consider successful in your experience with your funnels? What is the success rate or conversion rate? Or do you look at different points in the funnel?

00:11:22 Christina: Yeah, I go back and forth on all of this. Because part of me, I was taught 1% to 3% is average conversion rate, so blah, blah, blah. And then I can see why sometimes that's not true at all. Sometimes you just have, and I think for me and the way that I think and the way that my brain works and the, like honing in and really focusing on that conversion rate is a negative space for me, because what will happen is I'll have a launch that didn't convert at one to 3% and I think the whole thing is a disaster and I'm horrible. And so I care less about that. I would say top-of-funnel traffic, I need to make sure that people are entering my funnel. I like to log into my CRM. Every single day and see that people, new subscribers every day.

00:12:07 Christina: So if I see the faucet isn't on, then I'm like, all right, what's next? So that would be one thing. I'm looking to make sure, like more granular. I'm looking like, are they dropping off at email three? Are they unsubscribing? Like what is happening? Like those types of things that I might tweak a subject line or kind of go in there and see. And then what else? What else did you ask me? You asked me more. But so, oh, just conversion pieces of just making sure like, I like to see sometimes my conversion rate is higher, maybe 6%. And that's okay. And that may be like, less about me and more about the time of year if it's a live launch, you know, and those types of things. So it's like, it's sort of sometimes I need to get away from the math of it, because I can use the math against me is all I want to say on that piece.

00:12:55 Jess: Um, before we go back to like JV partners or like affiliates and things like that, would you share your tech stack? I know people are going to be wondering like, what does she use to like do all of this stuff?

00:13:08 Christina: So I will share my tech stack and say that the caveat of my tech stack was built on the premise that I was hell-bent on not using Zapier. I needed… I knew that I did not want to have to connect my email marketing to my course membership to… and so that was the first piece. So that narrowed me at the time down to Kartra. And I think Kajabi was an option. But there was a reason why oh, at the time, I couldn't do… Timers didn't have… Timers weren't in Kajabi. So you had to use something like Deadline Funnel, which was a tech stack thing. And I was like, nope, I'm not doing it. So I went with Kartra. It is a little clunky. For me, I think it's not as pretty as a Leadpages or a Kajabi. But I'm happy and now I know the system and it's fine. So that is literally where my courses are housed, my memberships, my timers, my email, all of my affiliate, all that stuff is all in one. So yeah, that's what I use.

00:14:15 Jess: Awesome. I did it again. I think you're the first person to say that, that you are like, kind of in the one and done platform. Make a lot of sense.

00:14:30 Christina: Yeah. Yeah, I just couldn't stand it. Like I dipped my toe into looking at Deadline Funnel, I dipped my toe into some other things. And it was like, this is, everything is just hot. It's like a handshake. It's all having to like the backend, the API is all having to connect. And it was like, no, And so for me, the trade-off was, well, crap, I really got to learn this tech that's not nearly as intuitive. So when a client comes to me for easy emails, I suggest ConvertKit to everyone. I'm like, just use ConvertKit. It's perfect. It's automated. It's beautiful. It will make sense in your brain. But if you're talking about course and all of this stuff that we do, then I would say go for… and now maybe if I had to do it all over again, maybe I would do Kajabi. I don't know.

00:15:14 Jess: Never know. Um, okay. Let's talk about this concept of, like JV partners or affiliates.

00:15:32 Jess: Maybe just define for people what those things are in case you don't know or you've never heard those terms before. And then I'd love to hear just a bit about how you structure your affiliate programs. Your pay splits, where you're recruiting these people, if you really productize it or programitize it. Yeah. Give us the goods.

00:15:57 Christina: So… When I really first dipped my toe into this world, I think I had 200 subscribers on my email list from my agency. So I used to own a marketing agency. So these aren't even the right people, if that makes sense. These were 200 Atlanta-based small business owners, crafters… I mean, friends, my mom. So I really needed to start from scratch. And so getting in front of other people's audiences, the way that you would,so JV, joint venture, like, it basically is where you and another consultant, another creator, online course creator, or even I think, in our world, the version that we see a lot, and we don't even realize what it is, is like, when a consultant goes and does a webinar for a tech tool, that's a JV, like you are going in front of that audience. And you're talking about your zone of genius and presenting a webinar. So that is it.

00:16:50 Christina: And sometimes with the JV, like in the case of two consultants doing it, then I would actually create a webinar registration page and the partner would promote that page to their audience. So I'm list building as I am also pitching my course and then we'll talk about the affiliate commission there. So it's a really great way to get in front of people's audiences. And I found in the beginning as I was nervous or as I just, didn't know what I didn't know, it actually felt really good to have a co-host to be like, hey, Christina's here. She's going to talk about blah, blah, blah. Come on in. And it just was like having a warm-up person. And it made it easier.

00:17:31 Christina: And then with some of the tech tools, I find that it's a little bit 50-50. Sometimes they will have the dropdown, where in their webinar registration, you might get the email addresses in that, if that makes sense. And sometimes you won't. And I think that's still valuable because you can promote a lead magnet or something like that to get in front of. You're just trying to get eyeballs and in front of new audiences to kind of bring people into your world. Yeah. So that's the JV part.

00:17:58 Cindy: That's awesome. And I know, I'd love for you to talk a little bit more about the difference between partnering with a tech company and partnering with other consultants and what to look for, think about with those partnerships with other consultants, because I actually, well, yeah, I'll let you, we can go into it from there. I have thoughts.

00:18:23 Christina: When I first started, one of, I don't know if he was one of the first, but he comes to mind today. So like Sean Kosofsky comes to mind. He was, he and I have JV'd several times. He teaches like board membership courses and strategic planning, definitely outside of my zone, not what I teach, beautiful alignment and it like bookends nicely. So our audiences have a good overlap, and he has presented to my audience and vice versa. And so you want to pick people that are not a nice alignment. Now, as I've gotten more comfortable with it, I've picked people to JV with that maybe I wouldn't have in the beginning, because I would have been like, well, that's too similar to what I do.

00:19:05 Christina: And I'm like, like, Jess would be a good example. Like she teaches email marketing. Like a few years ago, I may have been like, oh, no. And had a lot of intimidation around that. But now I can see if there's a reason why what I'm offering is different or an add value, then I would still pitch that partner. But I would say that's more advanced or just like your mindset needs to be clearer on that piece. So just going after people that are… you are providing a value by sharing a masterclass with their audience and then sharing. And then on the back end, I pitch a course. And I will say, as far as commission, it has ranged. So 25% would be my low end of what I tend to offer. I don't think I've gone below that. And then on the high end, I've gone as high as 50%. And I'm happy. There's a couple of affiliates that are like, that is all I do. It's 50%. And I'm like, let's do 50%. Let's go.

00:19:58 Christina: So I've even had affiliates who have pushed me, whether it's the commission split or one of the other cool things that I've worked really well with affiliates is when the affiliate chips in a bonus. I don't know if I'm losing you guys on this, but if I'm pitching my course and then the affiliate says, hey, I'll throw in my mini course, too, for anyone who buys during this period. It's just such a win-win for everybody on the list. And so that's been a great place of like, so we've learned from each other. I think it is important to have an SOP for it. So you don't want the affiliate that you're pitching to feel like they're doing the work. It should feel very plug-and-play of like, you're going to handle the tech. You're going to handle the registration. All they have to do is email their audience and show up and intro you. That's the best experience. So I try and make sure that I have just like an SOP for that.

00:20:48 Cindy: I love that. And I definitely feel like people are moving towards more JVs with other consultants and away from the tech stuff because it feels like that, will also the tech companies seem to be limiting participation to their partners. You have to like, be part of their program and stuff like that. I have so many other questions. I actually kind of want to talk about live launches. But Jess, do you have any questions about the affiliate and JV stuff before we dive in?

00:21:26 Jess: Okay, everyone, we're back for another round of our rapid fire questions. This time with our guest, Christina. Ready to play?

00:21:34 Christina: Let's go!

00:21:35 Jess: Okay. Who do you enjoy learning about business from?

00:21:41 Christina: Oh my gosh, I have so many business books. Let's see. I do love The Gap and the Gain. So who wrote that? That's a great business book. For email marketing, I love Laura Belgray, Talking Shrimp. She's really… And Tarzan Kay. Both of them gave me, I feel like, the freedom to find my ‘weird’ and lean into my ‘weird’ and my voice and whatever that is. So we'll go with those three.

00:22:09 Jess: You are based in Atlanta. If we were going to spend a Saturday around town, where would we go and what would we do?

00:22:18 Christina: Yeah. So hopefully you would come in the fall right now when it's not too hot and it's beautiful. And I live in the city. So we would go walk around. There's the BeltLine that connects all the different communities together. We would definitely go on the BeltLine. We'd start with coffee. We'd probably start with coffee and then we get some more coffee along the way because I'm basically drinking coffee all day long. I take you to Ponce City Market, which was one of my first clients when I built my business and we'd go up on the roof, and they've got this cool kind of different activities like a, oh my gosh, what is the word I'm thinking of, like a fair on the roof. It's very cool and shopping and restaurants and all that. So we'd probably do that.

00:23:03 Jess: Fun. Okay. And last question, if you were a color, what would you be and why?

00:23:09 Christina: Oh, for sure. That's yellow. My kids know. They're always, they know my favorite color is this egg yolk yellow. And anytime they see anything, they're like, don't you wish you had a car that color? I'm not not quite a car that's egg yolk-colored, but almost everything else. So I would be that color for sure.

00:23:26 Cindy: I think you should do a car that color, too.

00:23:29 Christina: You can see me from far and far away.

00:23:31 Cindy: I love that. I love that. What's the purpose of a fun car if not to, like announce your arrival?

00:23:39 Christina: That's right. That's right.

00:23:40 Jess: I love it. Thanks for playing.

00:23:46 Jess: Well, I guess what I heard you say, as far as a good affiliate partnership, whether it's you as the host, or it's for the folks listening who either want to dabble in being an affiliate partner, or they want to dabble in being a host. I subscribe to the same thing, right? Like it's, it's being a host, it's providing everything and not making it a ton of work. But what do you think makes, if you could just reiterate a good affiliate on the affiliate side. I heard you say like email your list but like for example, do you require people to have a certain email list size? What if they don't have an email list? Do you require them to send x number of promos within a time frame?

00:24:30 Christina: Okay. So yes, I'd like to see at the minimum two, but really three, promoting the webinar, promoting the collaboration event. Social is good too, but really we always see the influx of signups through email. I know you're like, yes, of course, it's true. So minimum two, three is even better. And the cool thing is two weeks in advance, it doesn't even have to be like a long lead-time never helps because we're all last minute people. We always see the most signups the week of anyway. So that piece is really helpful and then you asked me something else and it flew out of my brain.

00:25:04 Jess: What about like list size? Or do you have any requirements on that?

00:25:08 Christina: No, I mean, for, I would say 500 maybe would be the minimum that I would do. But no, I think that's one of the things that I really had to learn. I remember getting on a call, a discovery call where I was pitching a very high-profile consultant. And this consultant was really boasting about their list size. And it was like 50,000 subscribers. And that's what they said. And I immediately felt that feeling of intimidation of who am I? And what I asked them was, Okay, cool. How many signups do you normally get? Because they had done these before. And they said about 1,000. I said, cool. Of those 1,000, how many do you get to actually show up live? And they were like, 200. And I was like, me too. Me too. And I was like, how can it be? And so what I had realized is probably this consultant hadn't cleaned their list in a while. Their list was a little bit more broad and wasn't nearly as drilled down as mine.

00:26:05 Christina: And so what I realized is it's really quality over quantity. And so I think we can definitely have a successful collab if somebody had 500 subscribers. A couple thousand would make it even better, but don't, I mean, I talk to people all the time that are like, I have 10,000 subscribers, but I'm like, why are 20 people showing up for a webinar? Like, so you really want to make sure that it's not really like that top number and you're drilling into like, well, how many people usually come? How, you know, what does that look like? And we want to see sales, like, that's the other thing is you can say, once you have one under your belt, you can say, hey, the last time that I hosted this was so and so we had 100 people live, and we had five sales right out of the gate. And then we saw like that type of like proof. I'm like, yes, let's go, you know, even if I was pitching in or on the other end.

00:26:54 Cindy: I love that. And that's such a good point around sales versus list building, too. Because I think getting clear on your objectives, right? Like sometimes there's JVs just to build your list. And sometimes you are, you're an affiliate and you have an active launch, which brings me to the question of launching. Because to your point, right at the beginning, we were talking about some people, you know, they go through your funnel and they don't buy, but they're on your list. You need to. give them an opportunity to come and be a customer, not just like sit on your list forever. And that's where live launches come in. So tell us a little bit about your how you live launch, what kind of schedule you have for those products and what that looks like.

00:27:41 Christina: Yeah. So how do I live launch? I would say I try and launch both courses at least twice a year. So that would be at least 4 months out of the year, I'm selling one of those, too. And then usually, I would say 1 or 2 other months of the year, I'm selling something else. So I'm selling like a live workshop series that I really love or maybe I'm promoting a couple of JVs where, you know, I'm the host, right? And so, you know, that keeps being kind of steady on what it is I'm promoting. I would say one of the challenges that I struggle with is the lead time because I'm like, I love to just be like, I want to like right now, I'm like, can we just launch easy emails in like two weeks? I'm like, Christina, no, no, because I need to give my affiliates time to like, weave it into their calendar and make sure that we have the graphics for it and all of that. But I would say like, I default to like a little bit of like, oh, let's just launch it right now. That'll be exciting and wanting to go all in.

00:28:41 Christina: So I would say I need to give myself a month. And this past launch was very, very successful. And I really forced myself to give myself more time than normal. So that I had enough time to let my affiliates know, give them everything they needed, and just make sure that all of my content was scheduled, give myself enough time to update the webinar and things like that. So four weeks is a good amount. But I would say as you get into it, the way that I launched Amplify Social, I will always tweak the webinar because there's something new I want to share, but like 80% of it is the same. And it will crack me up at the people who are like, I really wanted to come or when were you launching or, and I'm like, you've been on my list for two years. And it's such a beautiful reminder that like people are busy, they missed it, those six emails, they didn't see it. Or maybe I was too cheeky and not clear enough. And I just didn't say like, come to this webinar on this day and time and I was telling too long a story. And so those are the things that I'm constantly kind of working on along the way.

00:29:47 Jess: It is such a good reminder. I actually just thought to myself the other day, the next thing that I decide to sell, which who knows when that will be, is… I need to say it 100 times, like track it. Because I think that we all think that we're talking about things ad nauseam, and we've said it in our heads maybe a hundred times but we haven't actually said it a hundred times and I've been in that same boat where people are like I missed it like I didn’t see it. Like how.

00:38:19 Christina: You know. I got an email from a person I don't remember anything about this person because I immediately said goodbye during the last live launch that said, Christina this is overkill this is too much. And I was like, oh, and they said, just a little bit of constructive criticism, which anytime people say that, you're like, this is about to not be constructive criticism. But basically, what they were saying was too many reminders too many emails. And I was like, that's such like, I use that as like, I'm on the right track. Because if I didn't send enough email reminders, or I didn't send enough invites, then people wouldn't come. And so like, I'm willing for one person to be a little bit irritated so that a couple hundred people can be really fucking excited about like, the value, but it's hard. I mean, it didn't feel good to get that, you know, but I was like, it's fine.

00:31:08 Jess: Yeah. I mean, it never feels good. I was just at a conference last week with this person named Kirsten Roldan, who is like million-dollar email. I hadn't heard of her, which is, again, strange since I'm like all about email. I'm like, how do I not know this woman? And after she spoke, I went up to her and introduced myself. And she basically teaches her audience to send 3 to 5 emails per week and then like 3, 5, 15 emails a day on sales days. It's like, I'm like, wow. And this woman earns a million dollars a year over, maybe like two. And she told me that she has 900 people on her email list. And she would say that probably half of them are actually engaged. So call it 450 people. Like you do not need to have thousands of people on your email list to have a very successful business.

00:32:10 Jess: But I want to couple that with something else I saw in my inbox this week from a different person. I think it was Justin Welch or something like that, who was like, okay, don't bombard me with email. And I think what I'm hearing you say is that in the seasons of selling, and then there's the seasons of not selling, you still need to provide value. And I know personally, if I don't feel like I've provided the value that justifies me selling to you, then the sell feels very icky. And so you have to do both and consistently. And, and it's like a wave, right?

00:32:48 Christina: The worst, I would say the worst launches are the ones where I feel like I'm getting energy. Do you know what I mean? Instead of giving energy where I'm like, sign up for this, sign up for this, versus like, here's… I saved you a seat. Here's why you need to be there. It's a different email and it's a different frequency. Because if I really believe that there's value to what it is I'm selling, then I'm like, where's your butt? Your butt needs to be in the seat. Come on. And then I'm much more likely to send those 3 emails. And then when I get the one person who's like, what the heck, I'm like, it's all good. Because I got 200 people who were like, thanks for sending that email. So…

00:33:26 Jess: I have a question for you that came up in a different chat. I was lucky enough because I was, as mentioning just in Dallas for this conference while another nonprofit conference is going on. So I got to kind of combine a bunch of worlds and every meal was booked. And at one of the dinners I went to, we were just chatting about how soon you talk about selling in your email. So like someone joins your email list via a freebie, like how fast you cut to the chase that like actually I'm here to sell to you versus I'm here to provide value. I'm just curious what you do because there's kind of a, not an argument, but the difference of opinion out on the market.

00:34:09 Christina: My thing is I hate that 80-20 rule. I hate it. I think it's a great way to be broke. And selling unapologetically has been the difference between the years where I've literally just stayed at the same thing and just… so right out of the gate, you download my freebie, you get a tripwire. I'm selling you something. You don't even get a thank you page, you get a tripwire. I'm like, here's an offer. Then in your inbox, you get the freebie. And that, I think the next email you get is to sign up for my funnel, which we didn't, we sort of like, now we're looping back where I'm like, hey, did you see this free training? So I'm selling unapologetically through the whole thing. And that's something I've really had to work on and work towards.

00:34:51 Christina: But it's like, I finally believe in the things, that I've gotten to the point where I believe in the thing that I'm selling enough to where I'm like, this is a no-brainer. Go watch this training. I promise you'll make money after you go watch this training. Or you'll feel better. Or you'll be more motivated. Or you'll have that conversation. Or instead of hiding under the covers and not making that call, you're going to make that call. Whatever the piece is, I believe in it enough to where I'm comfortable selling. And nowadays, I would say, I don't know. I mean, I'd have to go look back and see if one of my newsletters didn't have something in it. I don't know. At least maybe I'm driving people to buy podcasts. That would be my softest call to action. But today I sent out a newsletter and I was like, hi, here's a workshop I'm teaching. That's after last week's lunch.

00:35:37 Jess: Yeah. Yeah, I think it's good. Like, if you're going to sell an email, the sooner that people know that, the better. And if that intimidates or offends or puts people off, like, I don't want them on my email list. You know what I mean? And I think that there's a lot of consultants out there that are A, not emailing in general. They're not focused on building an email list because they're afraid of feeling salesy. And then there's a second layer of folk who are not selling an email or certainly not quickly enough, in my opinion. And I have a similar experience to you, Christina, where the more emails I send that sell, the more money I earn in my business. And so I've just been able to actually become social media optional at this point.

00:36:26 Jess: Email selling is like, I'll never look back. I will die on that hill. Besides you, I would consider a very advanced marketer and someone who looks at trends and looks ahead. What are some of your predictions for nonprofit consultants in 2024? Like, I just feel this year has been a really funky year. And we're in a building or transitional phase and things are going to be just wildly different maybe in the next two, three, four years. And I'm just kind of curious where you think things are going and what you are thinking about now to plan for the future.

00:37:03 Christina: Oh, that's interesting. So I feel like there's a school of thought where somebody will say consultants need to focus on low-ticket and blah blah blah because nonprofits and the budget and the thing. And then I know that you can focus on high-ticket and there are nonprofits that can serve that one-to-one. So it's like, I think that there is a place for both. It's a matter of finding your sweet spot. I think what you just said, Jess, is really important is that you maybe have to turn up the volume on both like what you're saying and how often you're saying it to get noticed and maybe that's a trend.

00:37:39 Christina: So whether it's like we care a lot about email and building… you need to build up a list somewhere. So yeah, social following. Okay. Email would be my first choice. YouTube, maybe. Some sort of SEO-driven platform somewhere where people can hear about you. Whether you're getting in front of audiences, guesting on podcasts, or things like that. Just building up a presence, I think, is going to be really, really important. And then, you know, as far as high-ticket, low-ticket, workshops. courses, one-to-one, I think that there is a place for everyone. It's a matter of deciding what it is that you're most comfortable with, what is you want to do and like going all in on doing that thing. I also don't, I would say like it depends on the person, but I'm somebody who hasn't really niched at all, really a little bit. And so I think that's okay. I think as you're beginning, it's helpful to niche for sure, and be known for one or two things. But as you get kind of more comfortable, it's also okay to branch out.

00:38:37 Cindy: Love that. You know, we have to ask for a confession. So what would you say is your business confession? Something you might not be super keen to share at anywhere else or take us behind the scenes of something you're working on in the business.

00:38:59 Christina: So I'll give you kind of two that are interlocked. I would say most people don't know this about me, but I never worked for a nonprofit. I never came from an in-house, like I've never been on payroll for a nonprofit. I've never, like, I literally just kind of elbowed into this world from the outside. And I've always for a little while, I felt like an outsider because of that. And then I realized that that was the sweet spot is that I can see it because I'm an outsider, but I never have any formal in-house fundraising, the training at all.

00:39:36 Christina: And my next piece, which also is now like, I'm like, oh, this is very on trend for me is. I also don't have any formal marketing training. I'm a creative. I went to art school. It wasn't until my senior year of art of college that I was like, oh, I should take some business classes. Like, that's cool. I'll take that. Like I really have my entire business life have been an entrepreneur. So I started a marketing agency many, many years ago. But even before that, I was selling real estate. Like I've always been like 1099 to an LLC to an S Corp, all the way along the way. And so I've really figured out how to DIY. And there was a time where I was like, oh, maybe that's bad. And now I'm like, no, I'm literally my guinea pig. I'm my first best customer, and then I'm teaching it to the rest of you.

00:40:20 Christina: The way that we just talked about JVs is very, very similar to how I teach influencer marketing to nonprofits. I'm like, it's the same thing. We want to make it easy. We want to build that visibility piece. We want to get in front of other audiences. I'm like, you guys, we're all the same. So I can kind of teach that because I've done it. But it is kind of a weird thing to be like, oh.

00:40:40 Jess: Totally. Okay, love it. Christina, thank you so much for being such a open book about your business. Where can folks find you get in touch with you follow you for all the things?

00:40:55 Christina: Yeah. SplendidATL.com is my website and come find me at Splendid Consulting on Instagram and the podcast, the Purpose and Profit Club Podcast. You can come find me there, too. Thanks so much for having me.

00:41:09 Jess: We appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks.

00:41:15 Cindy: Thank you again for listening to the Confessions Podcast for nonprofit coaches and consultants. If you enjoyed today's episode, which I sure hope you did, you can show your support in one of three ways.

00:41:26 Jess: Number one, post a screenshot of this episode to your Instagram stories or LinkedIn profile and tag Cindy and I so we can repost you.

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00:41:45 Cindy: And of course, make sure you subscribe so you can get the latest and greatest interviews as they drop every Thursday.

00:41:51 Jess: And to our fellow nonprofit coaching and consulting friends, remember we're an open book and here to answer your burning biz questions. See you next time.