“Every investment I've made in my business has been a learning experience, even if it didn't bring the desired results. I see these investments as opportunities for growth and improvement.” - Cindy Wagman

The Low Down On Our Investments with Jess and Cindy

In this episode, we're diving into how our investments in our businesses have evolved over the years—and the life-changing lessons we've learned along the way. Early on, we were hungry for any and all business advice we could get. We took all the courses, joined all the programs, and tried to model what the "experts" were teaching. But here's the truth: most of that just didn't align with our nonprofit audience or values. We learned that there are no shortcuts to finding what works for your unique business.  These days, we invest in the things that really move the needle:

• Bringing on support so we can work less and earn more. We've hired contractors, built out our teams, and worked with coaches who get our sector.  

• Referrals from our network. Finding service providers recommended by people we know and trust.  

• Invest in the relationships and communities that truly understand you. These are the investments that pay off the most.

• Rest. This year, we both took extended breaks to renew our creativity. Coming back with fresh eyes is the best investment you can make.  

The bottom line? Don't be afraid to invest in yourself and your business. But make sure those investments align with where you are now and where you want to go. Find your people, focus on what lights you up, and don't be afraid to challenge the status quo.

Connect with Cindy:

Cindy Wagman Coaching: https://cindywagman.com/

The Good Partnership: https://www.thegoodpartnership.com/

Connect with Jess: 

Out In the Boons: https://www.outintheboons.me/

Transcript:

00:00:00 Cindy: Welcome to the Confessions podcast. I'm Cindy Wagman.

00:00:03 Jess: And I'm Jess Campbell. Where two former in house nonprofit pros turn coaches and consultants to purpose driven organizations.

00:00:11 Cindy: After years of building up our separate six figure businesses from scratch, we've thrown a lot of spaghetti at the wall and have lived to see what sticks.

00:00:20 Jess: We're on a mission to help other nonprofit coaches and consultants looking to start or scale their own businesses past the six figure mark by pulling back a curtain.

00:00:30 Cindy: Whether you're still working inside a nonprofit and thinking of one day going out on your own or you've been running your consulting business for years, you understand that working with nonprofits is just different. We're giving you access to the business leaders who serve nonprofits as their clients. You know, the people who truly get it.

00:00:52 Jess: No more gatekeeping. No more secrets. This podcast is going to give you an inside look at what running a successful nonprofit coaching and consulting business looks like. Basically, we're asking people how much money they make, how they get paid, and what has and hasn't worked in their businesses.

00:01:11 Cindy: Listen in as these leaders share their insights, their numbers, and the good, the bad and the ugly when it comes to building a nonprofit coaching or consulting business. We're going to empower you to make the power moves that give you the income and freedom you set out to create from day one.

00:01:28 Jess: You ready? Let's go.

00:01:31 Cindy: Hey, Jess.

00:01:32 Jess: Hello.

00:01:34 Cindy; Today, we are pulling back the curtain on our own businesses in a way. I think the other day I was looking back at the investments I've made in my business. I was like, wait a second. I feel like this is a podcast conversation. Both of us really believe in investing in ourselves and our business.

00:02:01 Jess: Yes. But my thought process around it has really changed. And even today, I was almost ready to press buy on something, and then I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

00:02:17 Cindy: Wait a second.

00:02:18 Jess: Because I think as your business evolves, the investments you make clearly also evolve and so, yeah, let's get into it.

00:02:28 Cindy: Let's get into it. And to that point, I really think I could draw a map of the changes in the type of investments I've made based on what stage in my business I'm in.

00:02:41 Jess: Oh, yeah.

00:02:43 Cindy: The early investments, obviously, you have less money and you're trying to figure things out with what you have. So back in the day, I mean I used to, first, I used to not spend anything and just try and copy all the things.

00:03:00 Jess: Interesting.

00:03:01 Cindy: Yeah. So, like, I would do Amy Porterfield's webinars, just, like, attend her webinars and try and reverse [engineer].

00:03:09 Jess: Like try and hack. Oh my God.

00:03:12 Cindy: And like, it was not super successful. I learned, like, a few things. I used to run a monthly master class, like, live thing, that was like, it wasn't a webinar. It was, list building. But when I got serious about selling my first course, which was, I think, in 2017, I invested in a program called Live Your Message, I think, or Experience Product Masterclass. That's what it was. I think it was like $3500 US, which was–

00:03:45 Jess: Nothing.

00:03:46 Cindy: Significant. Yeah, and it was good, but I feel like it kind of got me to where I needed to be, but not scale. I launched my course. I probably made like $5,000. And I find those group programs where it's like teaching you one specific thing has a really great place, but I've always found they kind of lack a little understanding of our sector.

00:04:21 Jess: Oh, yeah. I mean, it's really hard to find professional development experiences and opportunities that really speak to us. Would you say that you're like a quick buy or do you really?

00:04:37 Cindy: I'm such an impulse shopper. My sister and I were talking the other day, and actually we were at shopping together the other day, and we're both like, shopping feels so therapeutic. And then we were joking that it's because my mom is a shopper and we inherited that from her. I am very quick, sometimes too quick, and I'm too quick to trust, I've been burned a little bit. We can certainly talk about that. I've made a few purchasing decisions that I have regretted. Yeah. What's your style? Are you like, trigger happy like me or you?

00:05:20 Jess: So I was going to say that's interesting you say that because I also find you to be really mindful of money and cash flow and all of these things where I would say, I am a quick start, but I'm also not really someone who, if I want something, I'll buy it. And if I haven't been in a position where I should really be buying it or can afford it, that would never hold me back. I would be like, oh, I'll figure it out later.

00:05:52 Cindy: Yeah, I mean, same, even though yes, and you're right. I am like, I know my budgets, I know my numbers, but I've always seen these as investments. There's literally been, I can count maybe two times where I haven't felt like at least I've learned and grown and gotten something out of it. Every other investment I've made, I don't see these as, like, expenses. I truly do see them as investments. I don't have shiny object syndrome, so I'm not like, oh, let me take a course on how to do TikTok, or even like, AI, which I'm dabbling in, but I'm not going to sign up for programs to teach me how to do great prompts.

00:06:41 Cindy: It's not part of my goals right now, so it doesn't fit, and I'm fine with that. Everything else, I think I have a strategy, but then I'm quick to like when I know it's right, it's right. And like I said, I've only been burned twice with that. Only twice. Go ahead.

00:07:02 Jess: No, okay, so I would say yes, I agree. Listen, that's like a testament to good marketing and branding, which I think that you can, like lots to learn from. Yeah. Which, hey, is like a testament to whoever put that together. I would say at the beginning, it was such the Wild West. I mean, even you, because you were ahead of me when you started.

00:07:32 Jess: It was all just about the education. Like, I could not consume enough education. And then it started to tilt towards this other place where it was like, okay, I need to stop learning and I need to start doing. And then so, that became where investments shifted to be less about the content and the information and the more about putting myself in circles where there's other people who are going to keep me accountable, blah, blah, blah.

00:08:02 Jess: And now I'm at a place where I'm like, no, I just need someone else to do that thing. I need to pay whatever it costs so that I'm not doing all of the things. So my investments now are really, like, around contractors and team members. That being said, I did this year invest in a coach upwards of, I think I've spent over like, $10,000 in that, which I think is really average. And I will say that I think having that kind of investment is reflected in my annual revenue, like, where I'll end up with annual revenue. There's a direct correlation between the money I've spent in coaches, not necessarily courses, but coaches and revenue.

00:08:53 Jess: And that probably has a little bit to do with the accountability. Plus, the coaches I tend to invest in are people that are like five, six, seven steps ahead of me. So they'll just cut through my bullshit and just be like, no. Like no, yes, no, right, left, up, down, jump here. Because they've just already done it and made the mistakes, which is like, I will pay for that every day of the week.

00:09:20 Cindy: Can you share who your coach is?

00:09:21 Jess: Yeah. So it's Jordan Gill. She's been my 2023 coach. I've worked with her, plus six months at this point. And her coaching package is something that works for me, which is I just have ongoing access to her in a Slack channel, so I can voice memo her a hundred times a day or once a week or whatever's going on. It's really fluid. And we just go back and forth. So there's no structured calls. She does give me assignments or she does check back with me about things, which for me, who can just be a little squirrely, is really helpful.

00:10:04 Jess: I think these last three months, what's been extremely helpful is she herself has invested and put herselves in rooms with people making $10, $50, $100 million a year. And so she's just like, straight up telling me what goes on in those circles. I can't go to those circles right now, but I get to hear secondhand from her what is and trends, tools, directions, things. And I might not be ready to implement them into my business right now, but my brain is already forward-thinking on it, which I think is really helpful, too.

00:10:44 Cindy: Yeah, I love that. She’s fantastic. I've definitely taken the same path in terms of, like I said, like, before, I've done a lot of courses. So back in the day, I did like Amy Porterfield's List Builders Society, which, fun fact, I actually got a refund on because I did everything. This was, again, probably around 2018, and I was getting, like, no traction with stuff. Again, not knowing the nonprofit audience. So the refund policies, which is like, show us you've done the work and you'll get it. I was like, here is, all the receipts. I have done everything.

00:11:24 Jess: I mean, it just goes to show, though, right? It just goes to show.

00:11:28 Cindy: And she's like the queen of digital courses. So I did also, oh, my goodness. I'm blanking on his name. Business By Design. James Wedmore. I like him.

00:11:42 Jess: Are you thinking of the speech guy?

00:11:44 Cindy: Oh [inaudible]. No, [Colin Boyd]. I'm telling you, I've done a lot of these things because I like to know how to do things, but they've all been because, so Business By Design, I wanted to level up my course that I had run. And so that was good, but that was almost, like, too much. There's so much content in that program that I was like, whoa, this is, like, crazy. And then I wanted to do more speaking. So I invested in, I think, it's called Sell from Stage by Colin Boyd. Not my favorite program.

00:12:20 Cindy: I definitely learned a few good things, but one of the investments I'm actually starting tomorrow is as the time of recording this, I'm actually hiring a coach to work with me on developing a keynote because I've been on stages now, I want a keynote, and I don't want to do a course. I don't want to go through, curriculum. I want someone, to your point before, working with me one-on-one and just, like, helping take what's in my head and turning it into something really compelling and entertaining. So I'm making those kinds of investments now.

00:12:57 Cindy: I did that with someone else who helped me with some just, like, brand clarity. My business has shifted a lot over the last couple of years, so just some strategy and clarity and messaging. And then I'm also just outsourcing stuff, right? Like, with my Fractional Fundraiser launch, I outsourced a ton of writing to you. You're not doing it anymore.

00:13:24 Cindy: So I'm working with a guy now, Mike Kim, and his team is basically creating my launch funnel. Like, I sent him so much content. I'm like, here's my webinar script, here's my, like, this I've created and that I've created, my brand guide and all these kinds of things. So I'm like, here it all is. And he turned it into a web page, and it was, like, glorious. So I'm just like, I want someone else. I'm the same as you. I just want someone else to do it for me right now.

00:14:01 Jess: Yeah, I don't know if you can start there all the time. I guess you could, but it would be challenging because you have all the assets to pass on to someone now. And if you hadn't done it all before, I don't know, that would just be trickier.

00:14:20 Cindy: Yeah, I agree. You need to have gone through the doing it yourself to even understand what's happening. But now that I've done it, I want to level up and bring in the big guns.

00:14:35 Jess: Well, he's an expert and–

00:14:37 Cindy: So good.

00:14:38 Jess: Our friends, Brooke and Rhea, just speaks so highly of him, so I'm sure that you'll be in very good hands.

00:14:45 Cindy: So far, I've been really impressed, which has been great, but I do want to talk a little bit about the not-so-good investment. So part of what I have struggled with sometimes is kind of being a little too trusting or enthusiastic. And so hired a copywriter earlier this year, and it just didn't work out. And I should have known, but they weren't, a copywriter for businesses.

00:15:20 Cindy: So this, again, goes back to finding the right fit of someone who not only knows your sector, they are from the nonprofit sector, but they're not a business writer, they're not a conversion writer. And it's different. And so I was like, sure, let's do it. Let's see. And it was not successful, so I walked away from that.

00:15:40 Cindy: I mean, I still got some stuff out of it, but I would say, overall, not the investment. I don't feel like I got a return, not even a financial return, but any return on that investment. And so what I learned when I went to replace them is to build more process into the decision making, to slow myself down, because when I make a decision, I move quickly and I get excited. I'm like, Great, let's do this.

00:16:13 Cindy: So when I was looking for another copywriter, I think I interviewed about seven, I want to say five to seven people. And I asked for examples specific to business copy and all that. And like I said, do you have examples of people you've worked with who you think have a similar tone to me? And that kind of thing. So I really slowed down the process of decision making. And now I have someone. She just wrote my welcome sequence and, oh, my God, she got it. She got it.

00:16:53 Jess: Which is so hard, right, when you're a business owner and you're just like, yeah, I just need someone with a heartbeat, alive, that's able to go, go. It's hard to slow down and really find the right person. And so for me, one of the bigger investments I'm making in my business is hiring an OBM. And I don't want to do any of what you just described.

00:17:22 Jess: No, I don't want to do it. I’m not, I don't want to say I'm not capable, but I'm just like, I just move too fast, I'm too impatient, and I will skip through the hoops, and I don't want to for people I'm bringing onto my team. And so Soraya, her quite literal job is to do all that. And so I trust her immensely. She's been such an asset already.

00:17:51 Jess: And the goal with bringing on Soraya at her level is that by the time a draft, whether that's like a draft hire or a draft material, gets to my desk, it should be like in its final review. And it's taken me six years to get to my business, to have a Soraya. So again, it's maybe not like the first or second person, but having those stop gaps is really important.

00:18:26 Cindy: Yeah. I want to talk for a minute about the power of referral, because as you talk about Soraya, I am very familiar with Soraya. I've never met her, but she's doing work with some of her other business buddies. And Mike Kim came to me that way. And I just feel like it's so powerful to know that it's worked for someone you know, someone from our sector, someone who understands what we're doing.

00:18:57 Cindy: That is where I do feel like you can take shortcuts in the decision-making because, you know, they're good. There are certain people I trust with referrals where I'm just like, yeah, if it's working for you, it's going to work for me.

00:19:15 Jess: Totally. Yeah. At the same time, it can go the other way. Right? Like, if a couple of you or one of you has a negative experience with someone then or coach or program and you voice that, that could be–

00:19:32 Cindy: Totally.

00:19:33 Jess: I don't want to say a downfall, but it could be the opposite effect. Let's just say that. I think what you're trying to say is your network and the referral or lack of referral is just like a really powerful tool to lean on, especially when it comes to hiring. But also for programs. Like, what's the program you just said that wasn't the greatest call in [lots of gigs]?

00:20:00 Cindy: Yeah. Sell From The Stage. It was fine.

00:20:03 Jess: For you, it was fine, but you're not jumping out of your seat the way you are for some other programs. For example, I know you've taken Mariah Coz’s program, which Tanya's taken, Brook’s taken, and I know that you like that one. And so you took it because both of them said–

00:20:20 Cindy: I took it because they took it, but also because I liked what she… so that's such an example of like, here is a specific thing to do. So I'll tell you, her program, High Ticket Hybrid, is why I took that course, because it was a model that I wanted to replicate and adjust a little for working with consultants who work with charities. But it was very much like a thing in a box, right? Everything is figured out. It's all there. And it's just like watch and implement, watch and implement.

00:20:58 Cindy: And so I had the clarity based on their experiences, like, oh, I want this for my business. So that was like, an easy yes. I think she had a waitlist and then open cart early and I was like one of the first ones in, because I was like, I knew I was ready, right? But others, I've definitely, actually Colin Boyd's, I think I waited till the very end of the launch to get into it because I just was kind of like, I know I want this, but is this the best format or structure for me? And the reality is I'd done enough speaking that it probably was too junior of a program. I really did need more of one to one, but I wasn't ready for that.

00:21:44 Jess: I'll also say I think it's okay. Like what you said, I think you can get whatever return on investment you want out of each and every program, whether that's like hiring someone that doesn't work great. Now you learn that you need a process to like, I've joined programs where literally I've gotten what I've needed out of it in the first group coaching call or the first lesson or the first module, and then I've just never gone back to it. And not because I probably couldn't, but I got what I needed.

00:22:13 Jess: And I think the point that both of us are trying to make with investing in programs or people or coaches or whatever is sometimes paying the $1500, $3500, $10,000 is a faster and more effective path than joining on the free webinar and hacking your way backwards to try and learn or figure it out. I've even been a part of programs sometimes because of, not the content, but I just want to be in community with the other people in the program and that's okay too.

00:22:55 Jess: Or even we have our Slack community now that is a paid place to be. And it didn't used to be that way, but the quality of folks that are in there now, it's completely transformed. And now we're in, community with over 115 people that want to be in there. It's worth an investment.

00:23:22 Cindy: Yeah, I think that piece around, community, yes, I'm part of other free communities and there's a lot of, like I was going to say dead weight, but I feel like that's mean. But there's just a lot of people who don't participate or who don't put in and contribute to the rest of us. And it feels like they're kind of just there to sort of watch, you know, take instead of give. Whereas I feel like once you invest and actually as you talk about Jordan Gill, I want to think about what's next for me for next year. And something like that I think would be really great.

00:24:07 Cindy: But it's the people you're around and the people who are committed and invested in really leveling up their work. And to your point, I think where you are in your business can also dictate the kind of community. So some might be broad. I mean, I just love your community, your Slack channel because it's so many amazing people who are so caring and giving.

00:24:35 Cindy: But as you level up, you want smaller spaces with people who you're going to spend a little bit more time with on your challenges, which is what we have our Mastermind to do. So I think that I know for me, and we've talked about the Mastermind on the podcast before that community has been invaluable. And so yeah, thinking about like what’s the, that's peers, I think to your point before, what's the, playing with people six steps ahead that I think is going to be my next big thing to figure out for 2024. What are you thinking of for your own investments next year?

00:25:23 Jess: Yeah, I've actually been thinking about it a bit lately. But I'll have to admit too, while we're recording this, I am definitely going through burnout, which I think is past due given I'm going to be seven years in my business next year. So it was going to come in some way, shape or form. And so part of me is also just wanting to invest in my rest.

00:25:54 Cindy: That's what I did this year.

00:25:56 Jess: Totally. You totally did that this year. And I can see you on the other side, like going to blast, rocket to the moon. So I've also been thinking about that a bit. One of the things that I am investing in with my current team members is how I can work just not as hard for the money that I'm earning. I mean, I make great money, there are no complaints. But I also think that I'm working really hard for it and I don't need to be. And so it's like, what investments can I make to not do all the things?

00:26:36 Jess: Not that there's never more to learn, but I don't really need anything else in the Education Department. I almost feel like until I get some rest, well, and I would be a poor candidate to even be with a coach right now because I would just quite literally not do what I'm assigned. And so even that doesn't feel right. So I think that's what I'm, a little bit more, evergreen retention type of revenue models, which is going to take a lot of rebuilding. I guess investing and slowing down so that I can speed up later.

00:27:24 Cindy: Yeah. I have to say that was me this year after I launched Fractional Fundraiser Academy. I took the summer. Literally, I had two or three coaching clients and I had my Fractional Fundraiser office hours once a week. And I really stepped back from the business. And I have so much more focus and energy now. And I'm also trying to leverage that slowness.

00:27:56 Cindy: So I have like five things that I want to do in my business right now. And I'm really trying to take it one step at a time because very easily I could spend an extra 10 hours a week doing this other thing and adding this and adding that. And it's like, why would I do that to myself? Let me do this. And focusing on the high revenue, high impact things first.

00:28:20 Cindy: So I'm launching my group program that's going to pay me more than the $97 course or workshop that I want to create. That $97 workshop can wait. That will come in the new year or later in the fall. But I'm going to get the money in the door, do the work with the clients, and then build out the other things. So, yeah, I'm really trying to pace myself because it's so much better.

00:28:49 Jess: It's so much better. We're all coming out of, I mean, I was just talking to someone today and he was explaining how he just sees this extreme exhaustion for especially women around our age who have young children. We've just been frying ourselves. And I'm an activator. So to get me to stop is quite literally like me hitting a wall.

00:29:16 Jess: And I'm proud of myself that I can even articulate or verbalize or recognize this. It's a whole different ball game to actually execute. And so even as I've rested over the last couple of weeks of it and ideas are starting to come back into my head and stuff, I'm like, don't do it. Don’t post it.

00:29:34 Cindy: Just write it down. Write it down.

00:29:35 Jess: Just don't do it. No, just be a needle. I can just tell. I think that that's where my main investment in 2024 is. I also just don't know that I've, listen, I love Jordan. I think that she's an amazing coach. And she in many ways has very similar business model styles as me, whether it's virtual events or it's VIP weeks or whatever.

00:30:04 Jess: But it's still tricky, like when you just don't work with someone who really understands your audience. And I don't know, maybe in 2025, I'll hire you or something because you're the only one. I don't know. But I'm not naive enough to know that I don't need a coach. I think having a coach is amazing.

00:30:33 Jess: I just don't know if I'm going to, in the past, I'm like, January 1st, like, let's go. I don't think I'm going to be like, let's go. In fact, I think I'm going to take a good two months off starting at November and beyond.

00:30:47 Cindy: Yes, I love, love, love.

00:30:49 Jess: How about you, though? I was like, really long answer. Sorry.

00:30:53 Cindy: I have to think about it. For example, it might be working with someone like Mike Kim to upgrade all my funnels and actually having someone manage just consistent lead gen stuff, right? So keep people coming into my business and buying and turning things evergreen.

00:31:21 Cindy: But I don't know. And I haven't to your point, there are a lot of coaches I like, but I haven't found anyone who I'm ready to invest with in that way. But also my experience with coaches has been that I kind of coach myself, if that makes sense. I don't want this to sound really conceited, but I will learn and I will get things done. And I don't need accountability necessarily. You might have noticed that about me.

00:32:00 Cindy: So for me, do I need someone to give it to me straight? Yes. I find our Mastermind is really good at that. So I don't know. I have to think about it, but I definitely want to have things like, I was talking to someone. I feel like my business is going through a glow up right now, and so I really want to find that secure footing in, like, this is what we're doing, this is working. I want it to be like a smooth engine where things are just running. So whatever it takes to get there and bringing in people who can do it well and quickly, I think is going to be where I invest.

00:32:51 Jess: Yeah, I mean, it makes a lot of sense, especially at the phase of your business that you're in. And listen, we are both so lucky that we have our peer Mastermind that provides us so much at not that much money because it's just when we gather.

00:33:07 Cindy: Which is not cheap.

00:33:09 Jess: No, but–

00:33:11 Cindy: But it's worth it.

00:33:12 Jess: It's like 100 times its value from what we pay. So we're very lucky. And maybe that's a place people are in, too, if you have limited financial resources, finding again, we say it all the time, like finding your people and gathering. And I think that's why, for example, I'm about to get on a plane to go to Dallas tomorrow for Jordan's conference. And while I think it's going to be great, the people who are there are not necessarily other nonprofit consultants. And while it won't be fun and I'll love meeting other business owners, it's just not going to be the same as when we gather in February for the Make It Happen conference in person, where we're like–

00:33:58 Cindy: Yeah.

00:33:59 Jess: All the same, we all get it. We all speak to the same lingo. That is something that I mean, I would do that like four times next year if I could.

00:34:08 Cindy: Yeah, oh my God, I would too. Can we just plug that? Because I'm so excited and I'm not even can't wait.

00:34:18 Jess: I know. It's going to be really good. I've been, not the best communicator, which is on a long list of to do’s, but yeah, we've got our first speakers. It's going to be great and it's just going to be so, not a conference conference.

00:34:33 Cindy: Yeah.

00:34:35 Jess: But I can't wait to hug everyone.

00:34:37 Cindy: I know, it's in February. What are the dates? 20–

00:34:42 Jess: 28th and 29th of February 2024 in Southern California.

00:34:47 Cindy: Does that make it a leap year?

00:34:48 Jess: Yes.

00:34:49 Cindy: Cool. I feel like that's very lucky. So in Southern California and you get to come and hang out, I feel like it's a Mastermind on steroids which, you know, Jess is curating the speakers, but also the experience. And you are such a pro at making everyone feel welcome and special and just everything's going to be amazing. So. Come join us. I'm so excited for that.

00:35:19 Jess: It’s gonna be fun. Yeah. But you know what I'm saying? It's just different.

00:35:24 Cindy: Totally.

00:35:24 Jess: It’s different than the other conferences I've been to this year or whatever. It's just going to be like our people.

00:35:32 Cindy: It's with our people. I can't wait.

00:35:34 Jess: Yeah, I know. Well, my goodness. You'll have to let us know what you all are investing in, where you're putting your resources, if this was helpful to anyone, or I would encourage you. If you found a good thing to share it, because clearly good news travels fast with this group.

00:35:57 Cindy: No. Exactly. Share the wealth and resources and let us know, what are you investing in? We'll see you next time.

00:36:05 Cindy: Thank you again for listening to the Confessions podcast for nonprofit coaches and consultants. If you enjoyed today's episode, which I sure hope you did, you can show your support in one of three ways.

00:36:16 Jess: Number one, post a screenshot of this episode to your Instagram stories or LinkedIn profile and tag Cindy and I so we can repost you.

00:36:24 Cindy: Number two, share this podcast with a fellow nonprofit coach or consultant.

00:36:29 Jess: And number three, leave a positive review on Apple podcasts so we can continue to grow and reach new listeners.

00:36:35 Cindy: And, of course, make sure you subscribe so you can get the latest and greatest interviews as they drop every Thursday.

00:36:42 Jess: And to our fellow nonprofit coaching and consulting friends, remember, we're an open book and here to answer your burning, biz questions.

00:36:49 Cindy: See you next time.