"Don't network to network, network to learn, network to meet, network to engage because one thing I have learned is everyone in this sector is so open and so willing and wants to share and encourage and love and support and talk.” - Clay Buck

Self-discovery and alignment in your business  with Clay Buck

In this episode of the Confessions Podcast, we have a heart-to-heart with Clay Buck, the brain behind TCB Fundraising. With over three decades of experience in fundraising, communications, and marketing, Clay has helped countless organizations build sustainable relationships and revenue. We dive deep into the essence of the consulting business, emphasizing the importance of community. Our conversation ranges from the dynamics of sharing knowledge and resources to fostering mutual respect and collaboration. Clay underlines the vital role everyone plays in the sector, with an emphasis on promoting generosity and kindness.

Highlights:

• Clay’s  journey of self-discovery through transitions

• Creating community in consulting

• Nurturing genuine connections

• Ripple effect of generosity and gratitude in business

• Role of mentors and fellow consultants

Connect with Clay Buck:

TCB Fundraising: https://tcbfundraising.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/TClayBuck/

Find Us Online:  https://www.confessionswithjessandcindy.com/

Connect with Cindy:

Cindy Wagman Coaching https://cindywagman.com/

The Good Partnership https://www.thegoodpartnership.com/

Connect with Jess: 

Out In the Boons: https://www.outintheboons.me

Transcript:

00:00:00 Cindy: Welcome to the Confessions podcast. I'm Cindy Wagman.

00:00:03 Jess: And I'm Jess Campbell. We're two former in-house nonprofit pros turned coaches and consultants to purpose-driven organizations.

00:00:11 Cindy: After years of building up our separate six figure businesses from scratch, we've thrown a lot of spaghetti at the wall and have lived to see what sticks.

00:00:20 Jess: We're on a mission to help other nonprofit coaches and consultants looking to start or scale their own businesses past the six figure mark by pulling back the curtain.

00:00:30 Cindy: Whether you're still working inside a nonprofit and thinking of one day going out on your own, or you've been running your consulting business for years, you understand that working with nonprofits is just different. We're giving you access to the business leaders who serve nonprofits as their clients, you know, the people who truly get it.

00:00:52 Jess: No more gatekeeping, no more secrets. This podcast is going to give you an inside look at what running a successful nonprofit coaching and consulting business looks like. Basically, we're asking people how much money they make, how they get paid, and what has and hasn't worked in their businesses.

00:01:11 Cindy: Listen in as these leaders share their insights, their numbers, and the good, the bad, and the ugly when it comes to building a nonprofit coaching or consulting business. We're gonna empower you to make the power moves that give you the income and freedom you set out to create from day one.

00:01:28 Jess: You ready? Let's go.

00:01:31 Cindy: So Clay, before we hit record, we were talking about this being a time of transition and revamping for you and doors have been opening and you've been following and open to that opening of doors. I'd love to hear how you are staying present or embracing this period or season in your life and business where these things are changing.

00:02:02 Clay: Wow. Okay. So, okay. Let's start deep, shall we? Which I love.

00:02:10 Cindy: We're going deep in this conversation.

00:02:12 Clay: I love it. And I love that we're talking about confessions, and so I'll answer that in that context as well because I'm also very much… over the last year… the journey of over the last year and a half has led me to much more being open about this discussion and being vulnerable and present with the discussion, which is after decades of assuming, decades of wondering, about a year ago, I got the official clinical medical diagnosis of being ADHD. And in doing so, what the phenomenal medical team, right? Therapist, psychiatrist, et cetera, right, said to me was, you're 52, in the 70s, we didn't diagnose this. You learned coping skills. And just like any other muscle as we age, your coping skills have started to relax. Your coping skills have started to not be as able to keep up because you are older and this happens, right?

00:03:27 Clay: Which, you know, mind blowing everywhere. And again, I'm bringing that forward and answering that question in that, what I'm really being open to is admitting and understanding what this level of “neuro divergence” has meant for me and how it has guided my decisions and being able to look at decisions and open doors through the context of how I would have decided or moved forward in a very ADHD driven mindset and now having some help and some different tools and resources. And, you know, in this time when we are being appropriately, and thank God we are much more upfront about mental health, of being able to say in response to you, I'm not, I'm not fully present. I'm not fully open to it. I'm having real moments of not knowing what the heck is going on, but more able to go, but what a ride.

00:04:32 Clay: And there's, [you know], now that I'm actually on a ride, that it's a little bit out of my conscious control. So, yeah. And there's just some… I think the main thing is just the relief that I'm going, I thought I was me. I thought I was wrong and flawed and nope, just right. So I guess that's the… hopefully, sorry. You know, I built you a clock to tell you what time it is. Welcome to the ADHD brain, right? I think the short answer is being able to joyously lean into, yeah, not, I'm not present. I'm not dealing with, I have no idea, and I'm okay with that, right?

00:05:21 Jess: But what I think is amazing as someone that has been running your business for so many years is that you're doing something right where these opportunities continue to present themselves, right? Like, we all make our own opportunities. And so I'm curious to first hear about your business, what it is you do for the nonprofits out there, and then… and I will go back and remind you, if we soil a little bit. But I would love to know how you continue to create opportunities and those open door moments for yourself so that you can continue to walk through and then open the next door and the next door and the next door.

00:06:00 Clay: So can I respond to that with a story? Because–

00:06:05 Jess: Always.

00:06:06 Clay: There's a bit of a short answer there in that storytelling drives everything that I do and it's why I do what I do, right? And the story behind it is when… I worked for a consulting firm as the vice president of client services for a large consulting firm for 12 years. And in the process of that firm being evolving, let's put it that way, someone who was brought in to replace me in a position, actually looked at me and said, what's the big deal about fundraising? It's just asking people for money. And in that moment, I couldn't answer the question, not in a way that satisfied me, not in a way that I felt like this is why it's not just asking people for money, right?

00:06:57 Clay: And that led me to intentionally digging deep into studying and reading and learning and networking and finding people and community and, right? And that was 12 years ago, 10 years ago. So. And it also led me leaving consulting and going back to frontline fundraising for quite a while to go, okay, here's what I have learned. Here's what I can articulate. Can I still do it? Right? Which I did and then… so my firm is not that old. It's three years, just barely three years. And I started the firm and I originally called it Tactical Fundraising Solutions because my intent was to bring high level solutions, particularly in individual, giving an annual fund to small and mid-size shops because that's one of the things that I really learned. We have this wealth of knowledge and we have this powerful knowledge and experience that we know, but it's extremely difficult for small and mid-size shops with small staffs, et cetera, to access it because of budget, because of resources, all of those things. And I intended to be very tactical in my delivery. Okay? So first, don't name your firm tactical. It's a great name and it works. But, what happens is that all the SEO and all the marketing stuff think that you're military. So you get a whole lot of wacky marketing stuff that has nothing to do with you.

00:08:36 Jess: Well, things you learn, right? The things you learn.

00:08:39 Clay: If you ever do need a tactical army vest, I have actually stayed subscribed to that list. So I'm more than happy to pass it on. Some days, I think we might need Kevlar in our sector, but, you know. And then about a year and a half into that, I realized that that didn't fully describe what I wanted to do or what I was doing. And this was hard because then I renamed the firm TCB Fundraising, which are my initials. And the hardest part for me in making that leap was putting myself out there so visible. I named the firm after myself. That was a journey of, and I still struggle with it, right? Of being able to admit fully and visibly that yes, it is a consulting firm and you know, we were asking about title, right? Principal and founder or founder or whatever.

00:09:36 Clay: I mean, I'm one person. Like it's me and the dogs, you know, there's no we here. It's just me. And, yes, I bring in other experts. Yes, I bring it, right? All of that. But boy, putting yourself forward admitting that what you are selling is your expertise and your experience, and you're not a wow. Like A, yes, it's an ego rush. And B, it's a, whew, that's a commitment to do, I am I who I say I am. So like all of that goes into it. Which also gets to, I don't have my elevator. I don't know, what do I do? I don't know, I think, is the hardest part for any business. What do I do? Well, I do really, whatever a client comes to me and needs, and I focus on individual giving. But I also touch on grant writing, and I also touch on event planning, and I also touch on all of the other things because it all feeds fundamentally. I do fundraising strategy.

00:10:38 Cindy: Perfect. I was gonna ask cause–

00:10:39 Clay: [And] implementation.

00:10:41 Cindy: Okay. So strategy and implementation are two very–

00:10:44 Clay: Yep.

00:10:44 Cindy: Big things.

00:10:46 Clay: Yep.

00:10:47 Cindy: Do you find that it's primarily strategy and then some implementation depending on the client? Or like, if you were going out there finding your ideal client and doing your ideal work, what would you wanna be spending your time doing?

00:11:05 Clay: And lounging on a beach, was it cocktail?

00:11:07 Cindy: Yes.

00:11:08 Clay: An option that–

00:11:09 Cindy: Well, that's part of the option.

00:11:11 Clay: I think it's an option, but.

00:11:13 Cindy: Yeah. If you could get paid to do that, let me know.

00:11:17 Clay: Got bills, right? Remember the dog that needs food? Yeah.

00:11:21 Cindy: Yeah.

00:11:23 Clay: And what I should have said was the way I really should have expressed that was data informed strategy and implementation. Because my ideal engagement and the predominant engagement that I look for and that I have, begins with data analysis. And I recommend, for every single client, no matter what project it is, unless they're bringing me, as just a straight copywriter, right? No matter what project it is, I recommend that we start with a database audit and dig deep into the data to look at the quality of information that we have and the history of the information that we have. So you see the phrase data informed a lot with the work that I do, because yes, you can come to me and say, I need to you know, random, right?

00:12:14 Clay: These are the kinds of requests that I get. You know, I need to build an… I need to do donor acquisition. And my response is, do you? Because how many donors do you have in your database? What's the historical giving? What's your retention rate? And most, not all, but most of the organizations that I work with can't answer those questions, until we can answer those questions. So really it's data informed strategy. So to your point, Cindy, the strategy has to come from the data and the history, and then the implementation has to come from what the data informed us our best strategy was. And that's where I live, is in that moment, where we know what our history is, we know where we need to go, how do we do it?

00:12:58 Cindy: Hmm. And, you know, we love to get into the details. So. Because I wanna probe a little bit more just so people have a sense of your business model. Like, do you have one-off clients, retainer clients? How long are the client relationship? All of the above?

00:13:18 Clay: It's a mixture.

00:13:19 Cindy: Yeah. Perfect.

00:13:20 Clay: It's a mixture.

00:13:21 Cindy: Amazing.

00:13:23 Clay: Sorry, I didn't mean to [my end], yeah.

00:13:25 Cindy: No, no, no, that's–

00:13:26 Clay: Again.

00:13:27 Cindy: I think that's so great. And it sounds like that works really well for you. Does that work really well for you?

00:13:35 Clay: Yes and no.

00:13:35 Cindy: Yeah. Okay.

00:13:36 Clay: Yes and no.

00:13:37 Cindy: Yeah.

00:13:38 Clay: For any consultant in any business the number one problem, and boy, they do not tell you this, when you go to launch your own business, unless you are, you know, have a really great coach or planner or whatever, is yeah, you're gonna spend 50% of your time managing and working on the business, especially if you're a solopreneur, right? Oh boy, was I not ready for that? And you gotta have the systems and the infrastructure and the knowledge and everything else to support that because you are not gonna have 100% of your time to focus on client work, which means the types of clients and engagements that you sell and that you engage in are gonna inform how your work is done. And boy, have I, you know, oversold and had too many projects at once and was not able to nurture the business for quite some time and not sold enough, right? And nurtured the business.

00:14:34 Clay: But by then, the train had left the station. So like, yeah, it's a lot. So it's a mixture. And I have been very much in the mode of taking what comes and responding to what needs are. So I have a mixture of, kind of, you know, what you hear, anchor clients, the ones that are on the regular engagement and blah, blah, blah. And the one-offs, it's a little mixture of both. And almost all of them, almost all of them start with that database audit. And I do get the one-off. We just want a database audit. Great. Okay. And we do a database audit. I do get a one-off, hey, we need to write a case statement. Great, let's do it. You know, those kinds of things that have a very finite timeline. And the ones that start with the database audit, I almost always find they turn into ongoing strategy and implementation. And that's what I mean when I say strategy and implementation, is there's a little bit of, I did this audit for you, this is actual fact, this is data, here are the recommendations, and then there's a, can you help us? Do you know someone who can do those recommendations? Yeah, I do. Great.

00:15:58 Jess: That's super, super helpful. Okay. I have like 152 questions from what we've talked about already. So I will try to go in a logical order. So it sounds like you have a handful of retainer clients, and then there's outside projects that also come up to support that. But what I wanna go back to is the fact that you said towards the beginning, it's a different ballgame. Selling yourself and selling your services versus fundraising and asking for donations perhaps on… behalf of an organization, a mission, all these sorts of things. And so, how have you… I struggle with the same thing. It's very uncomfortable for me. I can go raise millions of dollars for someone else, but ask me to pay my worth is like, ooh. So I'm curious what you do to pump yourself up, learn how to sell through, show up as the thought leader. Like what work have you put in, to, now that you know that about yourself, to still run your business, right?

00:17:10 Clay: So that is very much why I told you that story of, you know, what is fundraising anyway? It's just asking for money. I mean, at that time, first I thought I was gonna retire from that consulting firm. So I thought that was a career. And that turned out not to be true, right? I did not intend, when I went into that very intentional learning and reading and studying, and I hate this word, but networking. I had no intention of starting my own firm. I had no real… that wasn't the dream. And indeed, this wasn't the dream. What was the dream? I have no idea. I don't know. I was gonna retire from that consulting firm. That was the plan. I hadn't really thought beyond that. And then I went through about 10, 15 years of, okay, well I guess I'll do this now, right?

00:18:04 Clay: So I didn't really have a personal plan or goal. Again, welcome to the ADHD brain. I have learned since, that that is a very, very adult ADHD kind of response to life. But anyway, in going through that process of intentional learning, right, I very intentionally put myself out there to meet and speak with and learn from, you know, the thought leaders of today, which this is the strength of this sector. This is the strength of the work that we get to do. And I do get asked for advice on how to, you know, start your own consulting firm. And I walk away from giving that advice because I'm not the guy, cuz I'm still figuring it out. I have no idea. I have no idea how to tell somebody else except be in every meeting that you can, go to every conference that you possibly can, read every book, read every blog, listen to every podcast, and then talk to the people that are producing. Am I okay to name names here?

00:19:17 Cindy: Absolutely.

00:19:17 Jess: Absolutely. I'm like, the people are wondering who you're talking about.

00:19:21 Clay: I mean, and I am certain that we share this connection. One of the most powerful connections, conversations that I had very early on before I even thought about starting a consulting firm was Jen Love at Agents of Good. We were at a conference. Yeah. Right? Yeah.

00:19:46 Cindy: We love Jen and John. Yes.

00:19:48 Clay: I love Jen and John. Like, I can't tell you, I honestly, and I tell them this as frequently as they will listen and make them a bit uncomfortable with my undying love for them. I honestly would not be here today if it weren't for Jen Love. True, 100%. I went to the Nonprofit Storytelling Conference in 2016, and this was about the time that I was kind of going through all of this processing. We were further into the process that I make a sound like, but I was going through some, okay, what's next? Like, what's the plan? And I went to Nonprofit Storytelling Conference because Marc Pitman basically made me, he introduced me to it, invited me to it, right? And I had not heard of it before. Anyway, I went and I heard Jen and John speak, and after like two days of that conference, I just had this really, like this, this is what I want to do.

00:20:40 Clay: I have studied now. I was an actor. I trained to be an actor. And it suddenly hit me that this totally made sense that this studying and learning that I've done, there is this world where you can present and teach. Right? And those two things connected for me at that conference. Okay, this is now the next goal. Now that I've learned, now I wanna teach to see if I can, right? Nonprofit Storytelling Conference is one of the things that we do at every conference, is on the name badge, is always an open-ended question, right? So you get your name and you get position, blah, blah, blah. But there's always an open-ended kind of funny question. And that year, the question was, when you travel, what do you never leave home without? And I answered Labrador hair, which I went to Jen Love's session. I was blown away by it. I went up and spoke to her afterwards. And before I could finish my question, she looked at my name badge and went, oh my God. That is the greatest response ever. Right? And like we became instant friends bonding over animals.

00:21:50 Jess: All right, Clay, we're back for another round of our rapid fire questions. Are you ready to play?

00:21:56 Clay: Of course.

00:21:57 Jess: Okay. We talked a lot about networking and conferences. What is one in-person experience that you would recommend every nonprofit consultant attend?

00:22:08 Clay: Nonprofit Storytelling Conference.

00:22:11 Jess: Perfect. This year it's happening in–

00:22:13 Clay: San Diego.

00:22:14 Jess: San Diego. Okay. You also mentioned that you show up on LinkedIn. Who do you really enjoy following on that platform?

00:22:25 Clay: Oh, can we come back to that one? Cause I gotta have it open in front of me.

00:22:30 Jess: Yes. We can come back to that one.

00:22:32 Clay: Yes.

00:22:33 Jess: Okay. You are a gifted, funny, comedian person. Where does Clay Buck go for some laugh?

00:22:44 Clay: Where do I go for laughs?

00:22:46 Jess: Yeah, what do you watch? Who do you follow? Where do you go to get some humor in your life?

00:22:52 Clay: Sam Laprade, first and foremost. If you know Sam in Toronto, Ottawa.

00:22:59 Cindy: Ottawa, yeah.

00:23:00 Clay: Sam is one of the funniest, most giving smartest, generous humans I know. And just funny.

00:23:06 Jess: Okay.

00:23:07 Clay: So, wait, I dunno. It depends.

00:23:14 Jess: Yes. It's just, lives inside you.

00:23:15 Clay: My dogs, actually.

00:23:16 Jess: Okay. Well, speaking of your dogs, you mentioned them a couple times. What are their names?

00:23:21 Clay: I have a… so they both have the same birthday, May 28th. And so they are both about… but they're a year apart, different [litters], different parents, the whole thing. Like, but they have, ironically, the same birthday. So I've got a, almost two year old, whose name is Huxley, and I have an almost one year old whose name is Beecher. And they are both English cream golden Retrievers.

00:23:44 Jess: Beautiful.

00:23:45 Clay: And they're gorgeous. And there’s–

00:23:49 Jess: And Harry, they shed a lot, apparently.

00:23:53 Clay: Oh my. You don't even know. You don't even know.

00:23:57 Jess: Okay. And then we're coming back to our LinkedIn question.

00:24:02 Clay: Oh, one of my personal favorite thought leaders, writers, et cetera, is Chris Brogan, who I follow and listen to a lot. One thing that Chris does every year is my three words, which is brilliant. And I have done that now for about 10 years. But he produces some great stuff. And Seth Godin, of course, is a go-to. I tend to follow people outside of fundraising and nonprofit.

00:24:30 Jess: Yeah, same.

00:24:32 Clay: Because I want that inspiration. I want something outside of what we do every day. So.

00:24:39 Jess: Yeah, totally get it. Okay. Thanks for playing.

00:24:42 Clay: Anytime.

00:24:46 Cindy: Yes. Jen is such a dog person too. We've had so many conversations about dogs.

00:24:51 Clay: Jen and I talk more about dogs than we do. And I am so, so honored and grateful that I get to call Jen and John friends now. But honestly, that moment of us meeting and then I reached out to them after I got home and kind of throughout that whole process, process, she didn't even realize she was doing it. She just was as Jen does very gently and lovingly encouraging me. Right? And I guess, that's my response to your question, Jess, is I think one of the best things that people can do, I think, one of the things that I did inadvertently, is meet and talk to people. And Jen gave me the confidence also to when I would read a piece or I would learn something, or I'd go to a session. I remember going to a session that Tom Hern did, and I walked up to him afterwards and introduced myself.

00:25:42 Clay: And we got to talking and we've kind of had an ongoing conversation ever since. I did this recently last year at the AFPI CON Conference. Jim Greenfield, right? The author, fundraising fundamentals, many, many books, right? Jim just happened to be standing at a cocktail table by himself, and I went, what the hell? And walked up and introduced myself and told him that, you know, I knew his work and appreciated his work, and we had studied it in school, you know, blah, blah, blah. And we wound up having like this 20 minute conversation. And I say all of that to say, don't network to network, network to learn, network to meet, network to engage. Because one thing I have learned is everyone in this sector is so open and so willing and wants to share and encourage and love and support and talk like, there's no reason. Oh, sure. We're all timid except whatever, right? But I think that's one of the best thing anybody in their consulting business or in their work can do is, “network, but with openness and vulnerability and togetherness and community.” Because boy, this community with all its faults, and we can also talk about the other side of, I'm talking to that person, you know. There's a lot of love and there's a lot of kindness and there's a lot of support out there for what anybody wants to do.

00:27:22 Jess: Could you imagine if I was like, no, share those names too.

00:27:25 Cindy: I was gonna say no names. So.

00:27:28 Clay: That's Confessions after hours.

00:27:30 Cindy: Yes. Can we stay positive in this space? But the… I just wanna share a funny story because my experience with Jen and John is actually so similar. Where I was, I started consulting, I was at a conference, I was like, these two people are the coolest. I need to be their friend. And so I don't think they know this, Jen and John, if you're listening, but I was like, they had the… I was like targeting them. I was like, one day, we're gonna be friends. And so now we are. But it's true. And I think that this is what we experienced. All of us, seen each other at Icon just a few weeks ago as of the time of recording this, is that other consultants for the most part, are there to lift you up as well. And there's so much love and support in the community.

00:28:23 Clay: And this is where I feel very compelled and want to interject that what you just said, 100% true, without fail. 100% true. And I just shared this before, the Icon conference with a group of scholarship attendees, the outside appearance. I am so, so conscious of this because I felt it 8, 9, 10 years ago. The outside appearance can appear as if it is clicky. If–

00:28:55 Cindy: Yeah.

00:28:55 Clay: It's exclusionary that everybody knows each other. So is it egotistical to say? It feels egotistical to say, but in some ways, I guess I am a bit of an insider now, and that I go to a conference and know half the people and we haven't seen each other, and we're hugging each other and we're talking, we're so grateful to see each other and what that can appear to somebody who is where we were 10 years ago, it can appear, right? Oh, they all know each other and they're not open. So the onus is now on us to–

00:29:26 Cindy: Totally.

00:29:28 Clay: Hey, forward what Jen and John and Tom and I mean the list goes on, Simone Joyaux gave me more as, individual than she could ever possibly know, you know? And so now, that, those mantles have been put on us to push forward. And so I think the onus, and I think I'm saying this very publicly, is you might not, I don't think of myself as an insider, I don't think, but I get people, you know, people come up and they ask me things, oh, I saw your presentation. Oh, I saw this. Right? And I'm so trying hard not to sound like, you know, I'm blowing my own horn or egotistical, but I do have to be conscious and wanna hold us all accountable to, we've gotta be open and we've got to–

00:30:13 Cindy: Yes.

00:30:14 Clay: Open that way now for others and listen to them. Because the folks that are coming up now too and coming out with their consultancies and doing work or doing things we never dare dream of in terms of questioning the status quo, you know? And especially as a white cis guy, I have to sit in discomfort and I have to step back and I have to be very conscious sometimes to do that. I've got, no, listen to what they're saying. So there's a whole lot of onus on all of us on keeping the continuity of this community and the openness and the support and all of it going.

00:30:56 Jess: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. And I think that you're right, and I'm actually surprised, especially as we do this podcast and we get to talk to so many different consultants. How many? Almost like pods of consultant groups there are like, we'll talk to someone and they'll mention five or six names. I'm like, I don't know any of those people. Or, I have a Slack channel of, now over 400 nonprofit consultants, but there's like this whole other world of people that I don't know. So I think that–

00:31:27 Clay: I [like it] on that Slack channel. I don't know if that–

00:31:29 Jess: We'll send you the–

00:31:30 Clay: Okay.

00:31:30 Jess: Yeah, yeah. I'm curious though, as you've been running your business for the last three years, have fellow consultants been more in, like the mentorship space, or do you actually get business from these folks/pass business to these folks? And how does that work, if so?

00:31:46 Clay: I think a lot of us do pass business onto each other. And I think we have to, and we should, right? And that's not my area of expertise, but I know somebody who is, right, or I don't have the bandwidth for that. Okay? If we're gonna call things out, what I personally cannot stand is when a potential client comes to me asking for a proposal or engaging, and they go, I spoke to three other consultants and all three of them told me absolutely not. They don't have any bandwidth. With no further, right, like, oh, talk to so and so, oh, talk to so and so. Oh, you know, here's something, I don't, and we're not naming names on that, right? I know who they are, I know who some of them are, who do this. And it's like, okay, well good luck to you because I do wanna kind of be a little bitter and go, no, I'm not gonna refer, if you're not gonna refer folks to me, I'm not gonna refer folks to you.

00:32:45 Clay: That gets us nowhere, right? You know, work on approaching the world with an open hand. If I know somebody who does something better than I do it or has more bandwidth or experience, then I'm gonna refer, I'm gonna introduce, you know, whatever it may, may be. Especially for those of us that are independent or small shop consultants, there's one of us, there's two of us, there's three of us, whatever it may be, and we're serving a similar sector of the nonprofit world. Like you're making me think of this and articulate this for the first time. But I'm glad you are because I was actually reading some posts on LinkedIn recently that started this thought, and now it's kind of germinating here in the middle of this conversation, which is the business of generosity and gratitude.

00:33:41 Clay: Like, if we're gonna live up to our values as consultants, not just in what product we offer, not just in what service we do, but if we are going to be “in service” to generosity and gratitude, we have to look at the implications, not just of what that has for the organization that we support, but also for their communities and their donors and the people they serve. And we are one piece of a very large ecosystem that is part of showing the world what it means to be generous, what it means to be kind, what it means to live, because here's, wow, who ask good questions.

00:34:33 Jess: Well, it kind of seems like doing that is just good customer service. So I don't know who those people who don't wanna pass it on.

00:34:40 Clay: Okay. Okay. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And I'm clapping and cheering right now, right? Good customer service, right? Like sending a thank you letter to donor is just the right thing to do. Yeah, exactly. The post that I'm referring to and if anybody's listening to this and wants to go to my page on LinkedIn, I don't know how to tell you what it was, but the post begins with me saying, hmm, an interesting take on this. Because the article that I shared talked about the impact of generosity on families and generations. So what does it mean for a child to see their parent donate to support a charity, volunteer for a charity, and the implications on being, on growing up in a household in which generosity is prioritized, and therefore what they then carry out into the world and they then carry into the future.

00:35:33 Clay: And what dawned on me in reading that post was, again, we, as consultants who support fundraisers, fundraisers who support that activity in a home, it's not just about the gift or the volunteer or the interaction between the donor and the organization. It's about what do their children see and what do their community see? And then how do we, and if we… we have to emulate that same thing in our businesses. I don't know that we have space for being, and I'm not saying that anyone is, right? But I don't know that we have space for being unkind or being overtly derogatory or, you know, any of the things that don't, in our work and in the visibility of our work, support, generosity, and gratitude.

00:36:30 Cindy: I love that because, you know, as you said, we're the role models and generosity is not just in how you donate money, right? Generosity is how you live your life. And that shows up in our business in a big way.

00:36:45 Clay: Yeah.

00:36:46 Cindy: Yeah. That's such a beautiful principle to leverage or to be founded on. Yeah.

00:36:53 Clay: I hadn't really thought of it until I read, not fully articulate, until I read this article and I'm working… this is really the first, I've discussed it with anybody. I'm really working on what does that mean for my business? What does that mean for how I come across in the world as a business and consulting firm? And that's what I mean about interesting journeys.

00:37:15 Cindy: Yeah. So I wanna ask you, you know, that's one example of just, you know, making referrals as well as being aware of the [clicks] cuz I've seen that, I'm sure I'm part of it too, right? So those are ways that this generosity can show up in how we run our businesses. Are you thinking of anything else? Or is this still percolating? What's kind of running through your mind as this comes up for you?

00:37:42 Clay: In terms of how we can come across as cliquish or?

00:37:46 Cindy: No, in terms of how you want to, or how you can build generosity into how you run a business?

00:37:56 Clay: Hmm. It's not about solely, it's not about what my business sponsors or where we place our logo or where I position myself or whatever it may be. It's about how we take care of the work, the council, whatever it is that we are brought in to do that is entrusted to us. So that means we have to go to the word stewardship, right? And what is the origination of the word steward? Well, a steward was the person who was put in charge of the household, especially during the crusades when, you know, the night, the Lord, whatever would go off to war for years at a time, the steward was put in charge of the household to manage the household, to take care of the household in their absence and ensure that, right, the revenue was taken care of and that everyone in the household was taken care of. And that the surfs and the whole rank was taken care of. It is to steward something, is to take care of something, which is why Lynne Wester very appropriately. And it took about a year of conversation between the two of us, for me to fully, fully 100% get on board with what she is saying. But why, Lynne Wester says, you can't steward a donor, you can only steward a gift. But that's a whole other podcast discussion.

00:39:43 But I think that's what your question is leading me to here, Cindy, is how do we steward, how do we take care of the responsibility entrusted to us as consultant? Because it's not just about delivering a product, it's not just about, right, delivering the scope of service that we promised in our contract. It's about… well, it's just like we would say, if this were a fundraising relationship or a grant relationship or whatever it may be, right? It's the same kind of, how do we take care of that trust that's placed in us as a thought leader, as a doer, as an implement, or whatever it may be, right? And so changing how we approach that, that business while also protecting ourselves and making sure that the bills get paid and the invoices get paid and all of that. And just like, I'm, boy, this podcast is doing me more good than I think people listening to it. Maybe, I dunno because now I'm sitting here thinking, right, every time I do invoices, I have to do invoices because that is part of the business. I hate it. I don't love it. But it is part of the business. And also that is how I can, you know, live. So just like we say in fundraising though, it's not just about that gift.

00:41:08 Clay: It's not just about, you know, the money or, yeah. The money that's received in exchange. Same thing I think for us is, how do we frame, it's not just the agreement the client is paying me. It's the trust that that symbolizes and that that is a part of that for me, yes, that is business, but that is also an indicator of the, I've said trust a hundred times, I'm looking for a different word. The relationship, the engagement, the discussion that we're entering into together, right? To solve this, whatever the problem may be.

00:41:47 Jess: Well, trust is such an important word. I mean, I think it's almost the word, especially when it works with… when it comes to working with the [crosstalk].

00:41:55 Clay: Sorry, Greece is the word. Dunno if you knew that or not, but1977, Greece is the [word], we've known this for quite a while.

00:42:03 Jess: Okay, my mistake, my mistake.

00:42:06 Clay: It’s all right.

00:42:07 Jess: So as we wrap up our conversation, we always like to ask our guests, what's your confession? What is your confession about running your business? What is a confession about something you need to work on, improve on, something someone's not talking enough about? Let's hear what you have to say, Clay.

00:42:30 Clay: That's such a good and hard question. And I love that you ask it because it forces people who have positioned themselves as thought leaders, whatever, right? To go back into those fears of this is what stopped me from doing it anyway. And I think my biggest confession has to be, as I do with everything, I'm gonna preface it with a story. I got into fundraising because I could write. I finished my… I have a master's of fine arts and acting. Was gonna be an actor, got to Chicago, realized I hated auditioning, and oh yeah, I'm gonna need a job. So I signed up with a temp agency that placed me at a nonprofit. And the very first thing they asked me to do was to write a grant. Well, I had just spent three… well, seven years in academics in the arts, right? So did a lot of writing. Short story, I got into fundraising because I could write, I wrote a grant and they went, wow, you're a really good writer. And the rest is history.

00:43:48 Clay: I've spent most of my career writing, copywriting, appeals, letters, case statements, et cetera. It is what I love to do, I love writing case statements. I hate starting the blank word or Google document with the blinking cursor is extreme anxiety. And I can literally come up with, my family loves it when I start writing a new project because the house gets very, very, very clean, because I can come up with 101 reasons of why not to start. And I can also come up with, in a split second, a million and one reasons why I'm not qualified to do this, why it's terrible, why I suck at this, and I am never ever going to sell another writing project again.

00:44:48 Cindy: Ooh, I love that.

00:44:51 Clay: And yet.

00:44:52 Cindy: Yep.

00:44:54 Clay: It is worth going through that. And I don't know a single really good writer, and I'm a decent writer. There are really good writers. I don't know a single really good writer that doesn't kind of experience the same thing and that agony of starting and that blinking cursor on a blank page, just. So to everyone, if anyone is listening, for whom I have written an appeal, a case statement, whatever it may be, and if anyone wanted to talk to me about writing an appeal, a case statement, whatever, maybe please know that it's an absolute joy and I'm very good at it. I love doing it. But the confession is, oh God, like every single time I question, why did I do this?

00:45:37 Cindy: Now I have a follow up to that question, which is writing for your own business. Do you do, like, writing proposals? I mean, you have a podcast, which we haven't even talked about, but, you know, blog posts writing for other people. How much do you… do you spend any time doing that? Is that the same challenge or a different?

00:46:03 Clay: Well, you know, if you had asked me that question two months ago, I'd had a different answer Today, I'm gonna answer with, have you discovered ChatGPT?

00:46:14 Cindy: Fair. Fair.

00:46:16 Clay: Because now listen, I am a writer and I'm a human writer, and I have watched this growth of AI going, it's gonna take the human out of it. And, you know, fundraisers are, we're gonna jump into it and everybody's gonna do this, you know, auto and it's gonna be awful, and we're never gonna write good appeals again and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm now a believer because exactly what you just said, Cindy. Yes, I have the same problem writing about myself. It's even harder writing about myself because I don't have an external.

00:46:44 Cindy: Yeah.

00:46:44 Clay: I literally just had an AI program rewrite my entire website from going through the whole prompts of, what's my ideal customer look like, what does my unique positioning statement look like? And I have to tell you how incredibly helpful it was.

00:47:05 Cindy: That's awesome.

00:47:06 Clay: And going through that process and I got some really great language that then I could edit and go.

00:47:10 Cindy: Yeah.

00:47:11 Clay: It's not exactly right. I don't like the subtlety there, but.

00:47:13 Cindy: Yeah. It's not the blank screen. Yeah, it's not the cursor flashing. Yeah.

00:47:19 Clay: Exactly.

00:47:19 Cindy: Very cool. All right, Clay, thank you so much for joining us for this conversation. We are so grateful for your time.

00:47:29 Clay: I am beyond grateful to have been here and been invited. Thank you. And we got to talk about like Jen and John and–

00:47:37 Cindy: I know.

00:47:38 Clay: Great people and–

00:47:41 Cindy: They're the best. For our listeners, where can they connect with you?

00:47:46 Clay: So my company's at tcbfundraising.com. I'm also on LinkedIn, as I already mentioned, T Clay Buck. Thank you very much for highlighting the podcast, that's produced on… we are for good studios, but you can find us at fundraisingisfunny.com. And, yeah.

00:48:10 Cindy: Awesome.

00:48:11 Clay: I love clearly to talk, so please reach out. We'd love to hear from you.

00:48:15 Cindy: Yeah. And if you're at a conference and you see Clay, go shake his hand.

00:48:18 Jess: Hi, hi.

00:48:19 Cindy: Or give him a hug.

00:48:20 Jess: Give him a hug.

00:48:21 Clay: If you’re on, listen, I'm super, super respectful and learning to be more and more of, you know, everybody. So please, please tell me in advance, or gimme a heads up cuz I won't hug you if you don't want it, but I'll hug the heck outta you if you do. So.

00:48:35 Cindy: Yeah.

00:48:35 Clay: And Cindy, you can attest.

00:48:37 Cindy: Yeah.

00:48:37 Clay: I give good hugs.

00:48:38 Cindy: You do, you do. But you get to choose your own adventure with that. It can be a nod.

00:48:42 Clay: There you go.

00:48:42 Cindy: It could be a handshake, it could be a hug.

00:48:45 Clay: An elbow bump, a smile across the room. I will take it all.

00:48:48 Cindy: Yeah. Thanks again and thanks to all our listeners for tuning in. Thank you again for listening to the Confessions podcast for nonprofit coaches and consultants. If you enjoyed today's episode, which I sure hope you did, you can show your support in one of three ways.

00:49:06 Jess: Number one, post the screenshot of this episode to your Instagram stories or LinkedIn profile. And tag Cindy and us, so we can repost you.

00:49:15 Cindy: Number two, share this podcast with a fellow nonprofit coach or consultant.

00:49:19 Jess: And number three, leave a positive review on Apple Podcast so we can continue to grow and reach new listeners.

00:49:25 Cindy: And of course, make sure you subscribe so you can get the latest and greatest interviews as they drop every Thursday.

00:49:32 Jess: And to our fellow nonprofit coaching and consulting friends, remember, we're an open book and here to answer your burning biz questions.

00:49:40 Cindy: See you next time.