Launch like a pro with Dana Snyder
“The podcast has been transformative. It is mind-blowing how many people say yes to being on your podcast that you would never imagine in your wildest dreams saying yes to you.” - Dana Snyder
In today’s podcast, we’re chatting with Dana Snyder about her business and how she launched her super successful podcast Mission to Movements. Plus, we’re diving into how Dana built her business by pivoting her focus from direct service to teaching and coaching.
Highlights:
A full behind the scenes playbook of launching (in Dana’s case, a podcast)
How Dana moved from an agency model to teaching and training
Leveraging Dana’s superpower of digital marketing to generate leads and build her business
Resources Mentioned In This Episode:
Resources Mentioned In This Episode:
Connect with Dana:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danarsnyder/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/positivequation/
Find Us Online: https://www.confessionswithjessandcindy.com/
Connect with Cindy:
Cindy Wagman Coaching https://cindywagman.com/
The Good Partnership https://www.thegoodpartnership.com/
Connect with Jess:
Out In the Boons: https://www.outintheboons.me/
Transcript
[00:00:00] Jess: I'm so excited to announce that the next Make It Happen Conference is coming to town on October 25th to a computer screen near you. And this one is an especially special conference because I am partnering with my partner in crime, Cindy Wagman, and her company, Cindy Wagman Coaching. I can't wait to do this with you.
[00:00:24] Cindy: I'm so excited. Mostly because your virtual conferences are fire, like the energy, the people, like it just feels so alive and generous and informative and like, I mean, one day you have to do this in person. I actually met La yesterday. I met someone in real life when I'm online through your conference and like-
[00:00:51] Jess: Love it.
[00:00:52] Cindy: The community that you're building of nonprofit consultants for this conference, Make It Happen, which for those of you who haven't attended in the past, it is so, so good. And justice creates an amazing experience. And I think the people who show up are just so incredibly caring of each other in this community. And, you have a theme for this one.
[00:01:18] Jess: I do. I know.
[00:01:18] Cindy: Tell me about it.
[00:01:20] Jess: Yeah, so this was born out of one of our monthly meetup calls where over the summer people were feeling that summer drag and really, really concerned about how to generate leads. And this conference draws nonprofit coaches and consultants that do everything from one to many services and group programs to just one on one consulting projects.
[00:01:41] Jess: And everyone across the board was like, 'How do I get new leads? How do I find new people to work with?' So I decided, let's go deep on this one topic. So this conference on again, October 25th, is going to be all about lead generation. Cindy, you wanna preview us to what you're gonna be sharing about?
[00:02:01] Cindy: Well, I, yeah, I mean, lead gen-
[00:02:05] Jess: It was something.
[00:02:08] Cindy: I will step onto my pedestal for a minute and talk about, like I've tried lots of different marketing. I love a lot of it. I love playing with all of it, but I think sometimes we get lured into this idea of like the shiny object or marketing thing that's going to work wonders. And the reality in my experience in working with a lot of other consultants is that it's like the basic referrals, networks, that actually bring in a lot of your business.
[00:02:43] Cindy: And there is a process behind that. So we're gonna go into the process and you're gonna hear from my clients, the people I work with to help them build their lead base. But you're also gonna get all the other new best ideas. I mean, Jess, I know one of the things for you is Pinterest, you've been like killing it there, so you're gonna hear all the different ways that you can generate leads and really build your business so that's thriving.
[00:03:16] Jess: Definitely. So the speaker lineup is fire. It's diverse. It is a lot of amazing women presenters. I can't wait for you to see them. Tickets go on sale on October 4th and you can get more information about the October 25th Make It Happen Conference at themakeithappenconference.com. See you there.
[00:03:37] Cindy: We will see you there.
[00:03:38] Cindy: Welcome to the Confessions podcast. I'm Cindy Wagman.
[00:03:42] Jess: And I'm Jess Campbell. We're two former in-house nonprofit pros turned coaches and consultants to purpose-driven organizations.
[00:03:50] Cindy: After years of building up our separate six-figure businesses from scratch, we've found a lot of spaghetti at the wall and have lived to see what sticks.
[00:03:58] Jess: We're on a mission to help other nonprofit coaches and consultants looking to start or scale their own businesses past the six-figure mark by pulling back the curtain.
[00:04:09] Cindy: Whether you're still working inside a nonprofit and thinking of one day going out on your own, or you've been running your consulting business for years, you understand that working with nonprofits is just different. We're giving you access to the business leaders who serve nonprofits as their clients. You know, the people who truly get it.
[00:04:30] Jess: No more gatekeeping, no more secrets. This podcast is going to give you an inside look at what running a successful nonprofit coaching and consulting business looks like. Basically, we're asking people how much money they make, how they get paid, and what has and hasn't worked in their businesses.
[00:04:50] Cindy: Listen in as these leaders share their insights, their numbers, and the good, the bad, and the ugly when it comes to building nonprofit coaching or consulting business. We're gonna empower you to make the power moves that give you the income and freedom you set out to create from day one.
[00:05:06] Jess: You ready? Let's go.
[00:05:09] Jess: Hey, Cindy.
[00:05:10] Cindy: Hey, Jess.
[00:05:11] Jess: I'm so excited about this episode with Dana today. We're talking-
[00:05:17] Cindy: She's so self-serving.
[00:05:19] Jess: I know. For anyone listening in, we are having a really important conversation with Dana Snyder of Positive Equation, and this is really a deep dive kind of masterclass on everything you need to think through and execute as you get ready to launch anything. Specifically a podcast, but really all of this can be applied.
[00:05:46] Cindy: Mm-hmm. And like full disclosure, Jess and I booked Dana and we recorded this in advance of us launching the podcast so we could benefit from her incredible wisdom and thoughtfulness. So, we really appreciate the advice. Thanks, Dana.
[00:06:02] Jess: Yeah. We also cover the topic that she is such an expert in when it comes to media-paid ads, and that was really helpful because it's an area specifically, I can admit, has been quite intimidating to get into. And she kind of busted some myths for me around giving it a try.
[00:06:24] Cindy: Yeah, I have played around with lots of different kinds of advertising and I'm at the point where I just wanna hire Dana, but she doesn't do that kind of work, but-
[00:06:33] Jess: Unfortunately.
[00:06:33] Cindy: Yeah, it gives me hope that there are ways to make it work as someone who serves nonprofits. But I will say this with like a huge caution like most people who teach you digital marketing like paid ads and social media and the like. They don't know our space and their metrics are so off. And so they sell you on this, you know, here's what to expect and it's not that. So I really, really personally appreciate Dana's experience and wisdom in that area too.
[00:07:15] Jess: Mm-hmm. Especially because it's working for her, she said, I think she's more than doubled her email list since she started running certain ads. And so it gives me hope that it is possible.
[00:07:24] Cindy: Yes.
[00:07:25] Jess: And she's just, she's so focused on measurable impacts, things that work ROI, and I just really appreciate that as someone too who really likes to look at the data that informs my decisions in my business. Dana seems to be really well organized about all of that. Yeah.
[00:07:48] Cindy: So here's our conversation with Dana.
[00:07:54] Cindy: Dana, thank you so much for joining us.
[00:07:56] Dana: Of course. I'm always happy to chat with you two. This is very exciting. I'm happy to be here.
[00:08:02] Cindy: We're so excited to have this conversation because, I mean, I know, you know, Jess, you and I just actually met for the first time, but I feel like we know each other, and like, love, love, love all the things you're doing. I know our audience is gonna learn so much from you, as will we, today. So as we sort of dive in, set the scene, tell us who you are and what is your business.
[00:08:28] Dana: Such a loaded question, Cindy.
[00:08:32] Cindy: Tell me everything. Yeah.
[00:08:33] Dana: Tell you everything. No. So, Dana Snyder, I live in Atlanta and I run a company called Positive Equation five years in, which still blows my mind at this point, and I've been through, I would say like a roller coaster slash playground of journeys as an entrepreneur and what my business has shaped out to be. But currently, I'm very much in the consulting speaker space, really helping organizations transform their online donors journey. So that entails the digital marketing aspect of things of attracting people to their online fundraising tools.
[00:09:11] Dana: Most of the time, a website. But it also entails transforming the actual experience the donor will have on their site. So helping organizations understand what tools and platforms and softwares are available to them, what makes sense for them with their business goals, and then how do we implement that onto their site? So it's kind of the, let's set the foundation, and then once that's groovy, let's get everyone there so that everybody knows about how awesome your mission is and raise some funds.
[00:09:39] Jess: Because this is a new podcast and folks that are tuning in are new listeners to our world, can you define what consulting means to you? Is that an advisor? Are you walking step by step with these clients through these journeys? Are you setting up these journeys? I'm curious what that word means to you because I'm, I've found it's kind of different depending on who you ask.
[00:10:02] Dana: Yeah. I would say I'm in this, again, this part of my business, I associate consulting with a teacher, so I like to be able to give the tools and the guidance and the processes and teach so that they then have kind of the sustainable knowledge to execute within their organization.
[00:10:23] Dana: And honestly, like I pivoted, I started my business as an agency because that's what I knew leaving an agency in New York City. And then I got really burnt out after about a year and a half of running my business that way. And in the middle of that, I had one organization, which I love, say, hey, we're not sure our social media manager is gonna make it.
[00:10:47] Dana: Like, I'm really thinking about firing her. And I was like, wait, wait. Before we do that, like before you do that, can I chat with her? What if instead of like the agency like retainer vibe, what if I like to coach her and like consult with her for a few weeks and I think it turned into like a two or three-month engagement and I was like, let me just understand where she's at and like coach her through some things.
[00:11:11] Dana: And at the end of three months, she was rocking and rolling. At the end of the year, the CEO was like A, she was still there. B, she's like, we've seen 50% month of our month growth on all of our social. And she stayed there for like three more years. So that was my kind of catalyst, I wanna say that happened in like the spring of that year, and by December when that email came to me, I was like, oh, I was on to something with the teaching and the advising.
[00:11:39] Dana: And I find a lot of what I do in digital marketing is just those people can feel so overwhelmed. That if you can just have somebody, and oftentimes you're siloed in your organization that you're the only person that does that. So you feel alone. So how can you just kind of have like that coach that comes alongside you and just says, 'You're doing it right.' Like you're doing it right, or answers the question that they're like, 'Oh, I just wish somebody would tell me like this one thing to fix it and gives them the confidence, encouragement, and then that can change everything about how they operate.
[00:12:12] Cindy: I love that and I love that journey. I think all of us take that journey, but we don't always talk about it from like starting with what we know based on what we've seen and maybe what we've hired people for in the past, and then listening to your clients and building based on their needs. So that's such a-
[00:12:27] Dana: Yeah, and it's like-
[00:12:28] Cindy: Great illustration of that.
[00:12:29] Dana: In your personal desires too, right? I mean, ever since COVID, we go on a lot of walks. We also got a dog, so we go on a lot of walks. And I mean, my husband will ask me like, 'What do you desire? Like, what fuels you and what you're doing and what doesn't?' Right? And so when I hit that, I literally hit, I had the highest revenue year in my business in like 2018.
[00:12:53] Dana: So the year after I started my company. And then, but I was burnt the heck out and miserable. And so like those two things didn't equate. And so I was like, something's gotta give and that's when I'm, Jess knows this, but I talk about this in my intros to everything. That's when I got my random American Idol opportunity and was able to do like the show for nine months and then rebuilt my business to be more this like teaching, speaking wheel that it is right now working. So yeah, you just kind of have to go with your gut.
[00:13:21] Cindy: Amazing. Oh, I love that. I wanna ask you, cuz this is, you know, where we are confessional like we're breaking everything down. Can you tell us about your different revenue streams and models and what that looks like in terms of how like you're teaching, are you, I know you speak on stages, is that paid? I know there's lots of conversation with consultants around how much do we charge when we speak, blah, blah, blah, and then, you know, other ways that you teach, other ways you show up and help organizations and where's the money come from?
[00:13:56] Dana: Yeah, for sure. So right when I started, it was a retainer. It was a monthly retainer model. Most of my clients were six months or a year. And that was what's interesting about that is that was basically like my solo revenue stream. And I've done a lot of work learning from other entrepreneurs too about having multiple revenue streams. So right now I have about six.
[00:14:19] Dana: So my six revenue streams are my Mastermind, which right now I'm doing so once a year now cause I just kickstarted it and relaunched it as helping nonprofits launch and build recurring donor programs. Cause I think that's really important. And that's a very like small group, but high ticket price item.
[00:14:39] Dana: But I'm gonna do that twice a year starting in 2023. I have my podcast, I have my online courses, I have my speaking in my webinars, I have affiliates, and I do minimal consulting now. So those are my six.
[00:14:53] Jess: Okay. Amazing. And how does that feel going from like one to six? Because six is a lot. Six is a lot.
[00:15:03] Dana: Honestly, so much better. I know that like sounds funny. You think it maybe is more overwhelming with the more, but so much better. I work way less hours now than I ever did before. Holy macro. It was like 7:30 in the morning until 11 o'clock at night. Maybe was stopping for like one meal. It was like bananas.
[00:15:25] Dana: I first started like the hustle was outrageous, and then maybe this is also because now I'm 33 and I just want more boundaries and different priorities around starting a family and everything, and so I really tried to position. A, what are the things I love and right, the desire came around. I love teaching.
[00:15:45] Dana: I love having conversations and learning and so that really, and I love seeing transformations with the organizations I work with. So having those six really just fuel all of my passions and get to make money from them, which is awesome.
[00:16:05] Jess: It sounds like the teaching part really lights your fire, and so it makes sense that you would launch a podcast, which for anyone who's just listening is called Missions to Movements. Personally, as someone that loves good pieces behind the curtain, I think Dana does an amazing job of providing case studies with nonprofits on the ground doing the work. Everyone should go tune in and listen. But I wanna hear from your mouth, why a podcast? Why did you wanna start one?
[00:16:32] Dana: Yeah, so I realized, I mean, ever since I started my career in 2010, 2011, when I graduated from UCF and go knights in Orlando, Florida, I've always enjoyed networking. That's been my jam and building relationships with people, and I've had these relationships for some over a decade in the workplace, but I haven't really had a place or a platform to like share their awesome stories that I hear about right over coffees or dinners or whatever.
[00:17:03] Dana: But no one else is hearing them except on like one-to-one. So I hadn't seen in the podcast space a really like breakdown, like what you're saying, like case studies of digital. So what I say is I take people behind the feed. We see the beautiful campaigns on TV or online or social or whatever, or on a newspaper with an ad.
[00:17:28] Dana: But like how did that happen? Right? We so often think everyone's got their ish together, but when it breaks down, like even the biggest organizations that you can think of are still like, things come together in the last 24 hours or just, and it's fun to hear those stories about, oh, this took us actually seven years to get this thing out.
[00:17:54] Dana: When you think that would never happen. Like hearing those stories, I think makes everyone more relatable. And also they're like, 'Oh, oh yeah. Like we could probably do that too.' Or inspiring an idea. I think my favorite review that I've had from a listener was she said, 'I have my whole team listen to your podcast every week. And then we schedule a brainstorming session around it.'
[00:18:18] Dana: And that like, lit me up. I was like, that's why I do this. So that was really the reason for the podcast was A, selfishly for me to learn, like keep learning from all these incredible people. And then B, just be able to have a platform where they can share and amplify their voice in what they're doing. And it's not just, I think this is a caveat too. It's not just nonprofit-specific. So, as we're recording this, I'm doing a whole mini-series on influencer marketing. And so I do, I wanted all different perspectives on influencer marketing. So I have a platform coming in talking, and they're a sponsor of the show.
[00:18:59] Dana: I have an influencer who's a friend of mine that has like hundreds of thousands of Instagram followers. Like what is it like to be pitched, to be an influencer? I have a female-owned for-profit brand. And I have a nonprofit. All talking about how they do influencer marketing. So it's mostly, it's driven towards purpose-driven marketers because I think there's obvious, there are so many businesses out there that are for-profit that are also doing good.
[00:19:25] Dana: And they want that ingrained in their DNA. So it broadens it a bit and that also leads to speaking gigs, which I know we can talk about both, but to also be doing more speaking on the entrepreneurship side and not just the nonprofit sector.
[00:19:46] Cindy: That's fantastic. And I love that model for what you talked about for the podcast. We were, as podcasters ourselves, we obviously and I feel like it's a thing, right? People are doing podcasts and one of the things that I know I get asked a lot about, even from our, you know, sponsors or potential sponsors are metrics.
[00:20:12] Cindy: And as a marketer yourself, I know that you probably, you know all the metrics and have all the metrics and track them. Before we get into like, your metrics, I'd love to know what you think are valuable metrics for podcasts and what might be vanity metrics for podcasts.
[00:20:32] Jess: Yes. Vanity versus the real ones.
[00:20:34] Dana: The real ones. Yeah, it's really interesting in the podcast space, what I've seen is, and I think it's still like something to debunk like out there, like how exactly does the algorithm work? So what blew my mind was when I launched the podcast in March, I ranked number 29. And so when you, for those that don't know, when you pick to launch a podcast, you are given three categories of what you want to chart for, and there's a bunch of them. Well, there are main categories, and I decided, I didn't want nonprofit to be my top category.
[00:21:07] Dana: So your number one category is the one that you're saying I want to be searched and found most in here in chart for that. So I picked marketing as my top one, which is hella competitive. When I looked it up, there are 50,000 plus marketing podcasts and the ones at the top are Amy Porterfield. Yeah, yeah. Massive, massive behemoth with like millions of downloads a month. I was like, ‘Yeah, let's just go for that one.’
[00:21:36] Dana: Because I think, the topic of what I bring is best fit for that. So I picked that and I ranked in my launch week number 29 of all US marketing podcasts, which was right below-
[00:21:51] Jess: Incredible.
[00:21:52] Dana: Close to where some of my top like gurus sit. And I was like, how? And now since I just shared the stat somewhere else, my listens or downloads for the first, oh, what's the stat? First 30 days maybe was just shy of a thousand. So it was not outrageous. And then when I spoke, I was like, I wasn't sure how it happened. Then I spoke at a conference and I share every time I speak my last slide has a QR code for people to listen to my podcast. It's like my call to action.
[00:22:30] Dana: And again, I jumped into the top 50 of charting on the marketing, but my listens, so I mean, they were growing, but it wasn't like, again, millions. And so I have this thought that the number of reviews you get plus the number of subscribers, not necessarily listens, combined or would actually make you chart versus the amount of listens that you actually get. So metrics-wise, I mean, when you're thinking about sponsors to your real question that you were asking me about, I bundle things together in my sponsorship deck.
[00:23:08] Dana: So I bundle like my email list, they end up, I have show notes pages, which is a blog post on my website. So I know my website views, which is where I direct everyone to, and then they get mentioned there in my social channel. So like I kind of bundle like what I know all of my assets to be and wherever they can be mentioned. And I think you also have to place the value on, when I pick a sponsor and I say pick, right?
[00:23:37] Dana: Because I am doing demos of that platform. I am talking to their team. I am understanding what their business goals are. Have I used their tool before? Would I even recommend that? I say no to people. I'm like, 'No, I don't think we're a good fit for each other.' Cuz I am bringing the value that I've done my due diligence so that my audience knows like, okay, I can trust Dana that she's not gonna bring us something that's crappy.
[00:24:06] Jess: Question time. Dana, tell us, what's your favorite season?
[00:24:09] Dana: Winter.
[00:24:11] Jess: What's your favorite thing to drink first thing in the morning?
[00:24:14] Dana: Coffee. Espresso coffee.
[00:24:19] Jess: To give you that caffeine. Who is your favorite coach you've ever worked with?
[00:24:24] Dana: Oh, my favorite coach, probably Julie Solomon.
[00:24:29] Jess: Why?
[00:24:31] Dana: Because of her process. And she asks really like, insightful questions that really make you think and ponder.
[00:24:44] Jess: My last question for you is if someone's coming to visit you in Atlanta, where are you taking them to dinner?
[00:24:49] Dana: Ooh, I'm taking them to Roswell cuz it's a super cute town that has a bunch of restaurants that are in that look like houses on the street, and it's just very cute and quaint.
[00:25:02] Jess: I would actually love to go deeper into this arm. I mean, I have so many questions actually, but since we're on the topic of sponsors, as someone that feels a certain way about working with nonprofit tech companies, it's feeling more and more like a real art than a science to picking partners that are aligned.
[00:25:25] Jess: And you just mentioned doing your due diligence, but then you're also providing metrics and your audience. Is there anything else you would advise nonprofit coaches and consultants when picking sponsorships, whether it's for a podcast or it's for a different program because I don't know, I see a lot of nonprofit tech companies specifically that are, it feels very one-sided.
[00:25:50] Jess: And you know, we talk a lot about price points and money mindset scarcity for nonprofit coaches and consultants who might already be undercharging. And then to be kind of positioned against a nonprofit tech company with all these marketing dollars and all these staffs and all these resources when they low volume, the power dynamics can feel a certain way and I feel like as someone watching you promote whether that's on your podcast, your social channels, your email, you seem to have artfully done it in a way that continues to keep you doing it.
[00:26:29] Jess: So I'm just curious on like, what's your hot take on working with these nonprofit tech companies when it comes to sponsorships? Like what price point are you pitching them at? What does the bundle specifically look like? Like just any of the nitty-gritty details for someone who's maybe just getting into that world.
[00:26:49] Dana: For sure. So I'm like thinking, where do I wanna start with this? So I think it all starts with A, I don't just partner with nonprofit tech companies for one. I created a list of categories in which I felt reflected, like who my business is and who I am, and what I use A, as a business owner. A great example is LoudCrowd, my sponsor for the month of July for the influencer. They are not a nonprofit-specific company at all. I'm going after like the honey books of the world that I use for contracting, right?
[00:27:28] Dana: It's not necessarily just nonprofit specific, but when it is, I'm trying to work with organizations that fit like the services and the things that I teach. So when I talk about online donation tools, like I'm doing my due diligence and research to see like, does this part like platform line up when I'm looking at like CRM platforms? Like I'm asking the tough questions of that company.
[00:27:54] Dana: But I'm also trying to think of solutions, companies, platforms that will save someone time or create like better processes for them. So like I have to think of it as being like a value add. And oftentimes, like a good example is I'm working through a potential partnership right now with one and I was like, 'You know what? I don't think this, like what I have set up, I have a sponsorship deck, works for you.' Like sometimes I'll add in a webinar. And I was like, ‘I think instead it should be like a workshop where they onboard to your product.’
[00:28:32] Dana: And part of what I know the issue is nonprofits don't sometimes note what questions to ask of the platform or fully understand how to use that platform. So features and functionality get missed that are actually amazing. And so I'm like, why don't we do a sponsorship, and I was just like making this up on the fly. Like they get a discount for signing up for your program and then we lead a workshop that helps them set it up and like run their campaign and we're there to like coach them through it.
[00:29:00] Dana: So it's like totally trying to think about what's gonna work and provide value for the listener, but then what's also gonna provide value for that business. So sometimes I'll just like on the fly, think about those kinds of things. Where do I start on pricing? I would say the most common one that I've been doing recently is a mini-series. So it's either a two-episode or a four-episode series. The four-episode one I think is 5,500. And then the other one is 3,500 for two episodes. And then that outlines a bunch of different things. But I would say most of my sponsors right now have been coming in at around the 5K amount.
[00:29:43] Jess: Which is amazing. And it's interesting because as you were just talking, you were talking about what does the listener want, what does the sponsor, but I didn't hear necessarily you in that equation. And so, but it sounds like you are charging what you feel like is worth it and your value. And is there anything in addition to financial resources that you think that you get out of these partnerships that should be top of mind for someone considering sponsorships?
[00:30:13] Dana: I mean, I think honestly, one of the most valuable people that you can ever have is a good connector. And you're always gonna remember that person, right? If I remember that Jess connected me to what ended up being my dream job person, I'm never gonna forget you, right? So I think that's like, I've learned that like throughout, and that's the whole part about the podcast too, is like, if I can have you on and that jump-starts a conversation with you and a listener. I mean that's the question I ask at the end of my podcast is what is something our listeners can help you with?
[00:30:46] Dana: Like, what are you working on? Where can they reach out to you to like, help you with that answer? Look, I think podcasts are a lot of work. They're a lot of work. They take a lot of time. You guys are knowing this, you're figuring out it. I pay editors, I pay them to do my show notes, so I have cost every single month for the show.
[00:31:04] Dana: I work really hard on trying to come up with really great questions, and that takes time. I have a staff member that creates my graphics for it. Like it's a production and so because of that time, the value exchange for that and I will say I've never had, I've never had a sponsor pushback on the price that I'm quoting them.
[00:31:28] Cindy: Love it.
[00:31:29] Jess: That everyone.
[00:31:32] Dana: Yeah. Just, you know what you're worth, right? It's like, damn, when you think about it in the terms of those platforms, they're going to be making thousands off of one like relationship. So like, get outta here if, like, if you think that's too much, right?
[00:31:49] Jess: That's a whole different podcast of this episode.
[00:31:54] Cindy: Well, I mean, I had another question for you, but let's talk about that because I know what I do is, like with some of our partners, we actually look at, like, I look at what their lifetime value is of a customer that we bring them, and that's the primary metric we use, right? When we look at the ROI for their investment as a sponsor in a podcast or anything like that. So, you know, you actually can tell what the value is to the sponsor and justify those prices too, right? It's not just like, I mean, there's some like halo effect stuff, but this is a real business transaction. Like, and-
[00:32:38] Dana: Of course.
[00:32:39] Cindy: You can monitor it, right?
[00:32:41] Dana: Yeah, yeah, of course.
[00:32:43] Cindy: Awesome.
[00:32:44] Dana: And the other thing is if you structure your, for mine anyways, my pre-roll ads are dynamic, so they go on every single podcast episode. The midrolls right now, because I use Buzzsprout for mine, the midrolls are baked into the episode. So I say like, they are there. Like they're not being deleted. They're there forever. And so what's cool to see too just in the background, all of the episodes that continue to get listens.
[00:33:12] Dana: That's what's unique about the podcasting space is your first episode will still continue to bring in listens like months and months and months and months and months down the line. And so that person, that sponsor is still getting brand awareness and attention, even if their technical sponsorship time is over.
[00:33:29] Cindy: I wanna ask you, you know, your podcast is one of your six revenue streams, but it is something that I think does a lot else for your business. And so I'd love to hear, you know, aside from, we've talked about your sponsor goals, your listener goals, and what, like what you want for their experience to be like and for their success. What else does this do for you in your business in terms of credibility, builds an audience? How does it fit within the other five other revenue streams?
[00:34:06] Dana: Yeah, great question. The podcast has been transformative. A, it is mind-blowing how many people say yes to being on your podcast that you would never imagine in your wildest dreams saying yes to you. I think the first time that happened was I'm a huge fan of Jason Russell. He was the co-founder of Invisible Children and that was all happening in Kony 2012. Like all of that was like right when I was graduating college, like coming outta college, and I just remember being such a huge deal and I DMed him on Instagram and he also produced the Spring for Charity Water.
[00:34:41] Dana: And I DMed him on Instagram and he was like, 'Yeah, of course, I'll be on your show.' And I was like, 'The what?' I was like, 'Okay.' Another one that I actually have coming up in the next week was Cathy Hackl, and she is like the queen of the Metaverse. I bought her book, Navigating the Metaverse, and she has like, hundred and 10,000 LinkedIn followers and she speaks on all these huge stages.
[00:35:03] Dana: And I was like, 'You know what, I'm just gonna like, I'm just gonna shoot for it.' And so again, DMed her on Instagram. Thanks, Insta. Insta and LinkedIn are my two biggest pitching spots. And she said, 'Yeah, here's my agent. Like reach out to her and we'll get something scheduled.' So A, from that standpoint, like just my learning and like people bring onto the show is amazing. When I don't have a sponsor, I utilize those pre-roll and midroll spots for myself if I have something that I wanna talk about and launch.
[00:35:33] Dana: So the great example of that was my Mastermind this year. So when I relaunched it and I did a, I think I don't remember if I did pre and midroll for that, but maybe, don't remember. I had only five spots open for the Mastermind. So building the recurring donut program and it's really unique cuz I like bringing in a website designer and a copywriter and a video producer and like it's a mini agency over like four months for them to launch their program. And I had over 40 applicants and I could not schedule all of the calls before.
[00:36:09] Dana: I like immediately that the first five people I called said, 'And I think I actually took six or seven calls.' And then six of them ended up saying yes. And I was like, 'Sorry, everyone else I didn't even get to like talk to you. I will be doing this again.' And I don't think I did no ads for that. I did like two emails or something and then I had it run on my podcast and that was it. And it was just a game changer as far as like helping another like part of my business thrive and succeed.
[00:36:46] Jess: 100%. So let's talk about that a little bit more, because the goal with the podcast is always going to be to get into more ears, to get more listenership. And you, I know, are a huge fan of paid ads, which can feel really intimidating and scary to anyone ever across any business. And then you focus on nonprofits specifically, and it's a whole different set of challenges. So I'm just curious to dive into if you're comfortable sharing your ad strategy specifically towards the podcast.
[00:37:22] Jess: Because I think people who are listening could maybe consider that or adopt some of your practices for just their own business or maybe their own group coaching program or their own course or whatever. But it feels like you have executed the art of foreign gasoline on the fire, so to speak, when it comes to, you know, letting people know about your podcast. And then it has this just amazing ripple effect outside of that.
[00:37:53] Dana: Thanks. Well, I'm so glad that's like the outside perspective. So literally, for anyone who's listening, the best investment I ever made in 2022, I had to like, check to make sure this was the year in 2022, was hiring a CFO. So I hired a part-time CFO through a hundred degrees of consulting. It's only $700 a month is what I pay them, and they are incredible. And to have somebody once a month who sits down with me and reviews my numbers, it's amazing. So I budget out a thousand dollars a month for myself for ads.
[00:38:30] Dana: Now I don't use that all the time, so like before this I jumped on. So since January, I've spent just over three grand on social ads for myself and I run them for lots of different things. Something specifically I did not use ads when I launched my podcast because honestly, I had no idea what was gonna happen. And I did everything from more of an organic perspective with that. But now I do run a couple of different ads specifically for the podcast for growth. And I have seen continuous month-over-month growth on the show.
[00:39:05] Dana: But I think that can be obviously a combination of things. But my ads and I'm speaking specifically of Facebook and Instagram with this. My ads on Facebook and Instagram see like a 6% click-through rate, which is incredible for ads. Anything over like 1% nowadays is good, but 6% is amazing. And then of course on my site, I look at like time spent on that page. So I run to my warm audience, I do cold and warm.
[00:39:39] Dana: I have a quiz that I have right now that is not a lead gen piece. It is a podcast gen piece. I do not ask for anyone's email address. I tested it. I use Interact as the quiz. And essentially what it is, is I'm asking you, like, I'm trying to figure out where they are as a marketer so that I can curate for them the right podcast episodes. So if you go to positiveequation.com/quiz, you can see it.
[00:40:04] Dana: It's like four quick questions and it's gauging how big is their team, the knowledge base that they might have. And then I have curated three podcast episodes for each level, and you immediately get access to a playlist of those three episodes. Versus the goal was not to generate emails. I did test having the email ask on, and the completion rate was way lower. And I was like, 'I'm not trying to get emails. I'm trying to get podcast listeners, so why am I like even setting up that barrier of entry?'
[00:40:38] Dana: So I do the quiz and then I also have created some like audiograms that go to specific episodes. And those perform really well too. And those are just going directly to the show notes page with that episode. My winners so far for audiences for those, my lookalike audiences. So I'll do like a super set lookalike based off of my website, my emails, and Instagram. And then I'm also testing, right now I've been doing a lot of videos and I've had reels that have had paid on them. So any videos that are around the podcast and people who have watched 25% of that video, I will then retarget for like another ad to test those two.
[00:41:28] Dana: So honestly, social ads is a testing playground, right? Like you have to be willing to spend money just, and what's great is you have to be willing to spend money, but it's giving you back data. It's giving you back answers every single time so you can get smarter and smarter. Like what audiences are working best, what copy is working best, what graphics are working versus other ones. Like I go in and I'm like, 'Wow, this one is like really working.' I'm gonna turn all the other ones off, right? So, yeah, I can feel a little like intimidating and that's what I hope to teach, right? And like in my courses is how to navigate that so you can reduce the intimidation and have them work for you.
[00:42:07] Cindy: That's super helpful. And I love, like, I feel like so often when I've seen people pitch running social ads or teaching social ads like it's all about the conversion. It's all about like bio mini product or you know, lead magnet to trip wire and your approach feels a lot more aligned and holistic. So I think that's actually helpful also in reframing people's expectations.
[00:42:42] Cindy: Like we've had conversations with other people in this space and they're, you know, we feel like our ads aren't working if we're not getting, like, cost per lead at this point, or something like that. And your approach feels a lot more relational, which I think is our style anyways, right? Like that's coming from the nonprofit sector. Yeah. So's really helpful.
[00:43:03] Dana: I mean, it's really twofold. There's the awareness factor like just naturally, like the more you are seen by someone, the more you will be remembered, the more you will be thought of, right? But on the conversion side, and this is what I teach my students, is like because of the iOS changes and everything, like, it doesn't make it impossible. It just makes you have to be a little bit more of a detective. So you can't just be looking at what your Facebook ads manager is telling you because that data is not accurate.
[00:43:32] Dana: You have to be looking at what's happening on your back end of like your CRM or your website to be able to give you like the full picture data. And there are companies that help with that too, but it's more of, you can't just take things for face value. I mean, Facebook's trying to get better at that. I will say one of the coolest things that's happened this year is I spoke specifically on like three different ad strategies at the Classy Collaborative.
[00:43:58] Dana: And what I didn't know is that Meta, aka Facebook, a rep was in the audience and she came up to me afterward and she was like A, like joking. She's like, I wish I could hire you. B, we wanna partner with you to share all of our upcoming updates for our platform and have you share with your audience. And I was like, 'Thank you.' I was like, and that's amazing. And I just happened. So last week I had a call with them and they were sharing product updates that are coming down the line. And I was like, 'This is amazing.'
[00:44:30] Dana: Like that's where I wanna be like A, to know that I didn't completely like f something up on stage and like to speak something horrible about your platform that I didn't know what I was talking about. But it's, we all suffer from a little bit of like imposter syndrome. It's like, although I've been running ads since they basically started like on Facebook, you still are like, but I don't know everything. I'm never gonna know everything. But yeah, it was very cool to get that kind of like confirmation that like, okay, I know what I'm doing.
[00:45:01] Cindy: Yeah.
[00:45:02] Jess: Yes you do.
[00:45:03] Cindy: That is such a great way to wrap up this conversation. Cause we already running out of time, but we can talk forever.
[00:45:10] Dana: Yeah.
[00:45:11] Cindy: And have so many more questions that we'll just have to revisit another day. Dana, where can our listeners connect with you? Learn more about what you're doing and bask in your wisdom.
[00:45:25] Dana: I mean, my favorite place to hang out these days is LinkedIn, so you can just find me on there as Dana Snyder. Instagram as @positivequation with one E, and then I have a YouTube channel where I like to play around and do longer-form videos, and that's just Positive Equation too.
[00:45:41] Jess: Perfect. Thanks, Dana, for being with us.
[00:45:44] Dana: You're welcome.
[00:45:47] Cindy: Thank you again for listening to the Confessions podcast for nonprofit coaches and consultants. If you enjoyed today's episode, which I sure hope you did, you can show your support in one of three ways.
[00:45:58] Jess: Number one, post the screenshot of this episode to your Instagram stories or LinkedIn profile and tag Cindy and I so we can re-post you.
[00:46:06] Cindy: Number two, share this podcast with a fellow nonprofit culture consultant.
[00:46:11] Jess: And number three, leave a positive review on Apple Podcast so that we can continue to grow and reach new listeners.
[00:46:17] Cindy: And of course, make sure you subscribe so you can get the latest and greatest interviews as they drop every Thursday.
[00:46:24] Jess: And to our fellow nonprofit coaching and consulting friends, remember we're an open book and here to answer your burning biz questions.
[00:46:32]Cindy: See you next time.