Rest, Recovery, and Cold Calling with Dr. Asia Lyons

 "Working for myself is a form of rest because I get to choose my clients and I don't have what I experienced in the workplace when I was working in the nonprofit sector, which is racial battle fatigue" - Dr. Asia Lyons

Rest, Recovery, and Cold Calling with Dr. Asia Lyons

This week's episode of Confessions featured the amazing Dr. Asia Lyons, who shared her journey to building a thriving consulting business serving youth organizations. Dr. Asia's story is a reminder that we should never stop pushing boundaries or embracing new possibilities in our work. The only limits are the ones we place on ourselves!

• Key HIghlights:

  • Niche down. Dr. Asia knew from the start that she wanted to support youth-serving orgs, and she built her entire business around serving that niche. Her advice? Get extremely clear on who you help and how. Niching down allows you to become an expert in your field and better serve your clients.

  • Cold Outreach Strategy. Dr. Asia didn't wait around for new clients to come to her—she went out and found them. Even though cold outreach can be scary, Dr. Asia has developed a system that works for her. Her advice? Start small, learn as you go, and try new strategies. You'll get better and more comfortable over time.

  • Entrepreneurship as Empowerment. Dr. Asia intentionally set up their own business to have control over their clients and avoid experiencing racial battle fatigue and racism-related stress that they previously encountered in the workplace. This choice to work for themselves gives them freedom to choose their projects and avoid oppressive environments.

  • Breaking the burnout cycle. Dr. Asia recognizes that as business owners we need to make rest a priority. She makes sure to step away from work and recharge through self-care, community, and family. Being part of a mastermind and women's retreat allows her to connect with like-minded people who truly understand this work.

  The path of a nonprofit consultant isn't always easy, but Dr. Asia proves that with hard work, clarity, and self-care, you can build a thriving business that serves organizations doing important work. Her story is a reminder that we should never stop pushing boundaries in our work. The only limits are the ones we place on ourselves!
  
  

Find Us Online:  https://www.confessionswithjessandcindy.com/

Connect with Dr. Asia Lyons:

Lyons Educational Consulting: https://www.lyonseducationalconsulting.com

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/asia-lyons 

The Exit Interview: https://www.exitinterviewpodcast.com 

Connect with Cindy:

Cindy Wagman Coaching: https://cindywagman.com/

The Good Partnership: https://www.thegoodpartnership.com/

Connect with Jess: 

Out In the Boons: https://www.outintheboons.me/

Transcript:

00:00:00 Cindy: Welcome to the Confessions podcast. I'm Cindy Wagman.

00:00:03 Jess: And I'm Jess Campbell. We're two former in-house nonprofit pros turned coaches and consultants to purpose driven organizations.

00:00:11 Cindy: After years of building up our separate six-figure businesses from scratch, we've thrown a lot of spaghetti at the wall and lived to see what sticks.

00:00:20 Jess: We're on a mission to help other nonprofit coaches and consultants looking to start or scale their own businesses past the six-figure mark by pulling back the curtain.

00:00:30 Cindy: Whether you're still working inside a nonprofit and thinking of one day going out on your own, or you've been running your consulting business for years, you understand that working with nonprofits is just different. We're giving you access to the business leaders who serve nonprofits as their clients. You know, the people who truly get it.

00:00:52 Jess: No more gatekeeping, no more secrets. This podcast is going to give you an inside look at what running a successful nonprofit coaching and consulting business looks like. Basically, we're asking people how much money they make, how they get paid, and what has and hasn't worked in their businesses.

00:01:11 Cindy: Listen in as these leaders share their insights, their numbers, and the good, the bad, and the ugly when it comes to building a nonprofit coaching or consulting business. We're going to empower you to make the power moves that give you the income and freedom you set out to create from day one.

00:01:28 Jess: You ready? Let's go. Hey, Cindy.

00:01:32 Cindy: Hey, Jess.

00:01:34 Jess: Hi. It feels like a minute since I've seen you.

00:01:38 Cindy: I know. I know. But to our listeners, they have no idea because we're in their podcasts every week. But yeah, it's been a while.

00:01:47 Jess: And we are lucky enough to be joined by the one and only Dr. Asia today of Lyons Educational Consulting. Dr. Asia, welcome to Confessions.

00:01:59 Dr. Asia: Thank you. Thank you for having me on your show today.

00:02:03 Jess: Let's just jump in.

00:02:04 Dr. Asia: Sure, let's do it.

00:02:06 Jess: All right, who are you and how do you get paid?

00:02:10 Dr. Asia: Oh, so my name is Dr. Asia Lyons. She, her pronouns and I am a former teacher. I am originally from Detroit. I live in Denver and I get paid to support youth serving organizations with curriculum program development, onboarding support services and coaching. So my firm supports only youth serving orgs like foundations, afterschool programs, museums, zoos, all the places that kids zero to 25 can be found, we can be found.

00:02:47 Cindy: I love that specificity. I feel like so often people in our sector are reluctant to niche down. So how did you end up with that niche, like really getting so clear around who you work with.

00:03:04 Dr. Asia: Sure, so like I said, I think I said this, I'm an educator, so I still have my teaching license. I think it expires sometime next year. And, as an educator, I wrote curriculum, I supported in programming, I coached other people, and they have done that for 12 years, you get really good at it, and you know people who are also good at it. And so it made sense when I came out into the consulting field, into the world of consulting, that I would do that.

00:03:33 Dr. Asia: Now that was, I had a little longer of a list before I started off first thinking about doing DEI work, professional developments around DEI. This is in 2019, but I don't have whatever it is that people can have that allows you to be insulted when someone says something ignorant about race. And just like, oh, okay, that was great. Let's table that. I don't have that. I don't have the face for it. I don't have the heart. I don't have any of that. And so I decided like, let's just see what makes sense for what you do and who you support and like the folks you love. And that's what we came up with. And that's what I've been doing ever since.

00:04:13 Cindy: I love that. It's like no poker face, just like, you say something insulting, you're gonna see. You're gonna see that.

00:04:20 Dr. Asia: I'm across the table or I'm crying in the bathroom. This is just… Right? Like, how could, you know, I just don't have the capacity to convince people that racism is a thing. So let me just pick something else.

00:04:31 Cindy: Yeah. Fair. Fair. Can you tell us a little bit more about, like, how you serve clients? So are they one off projects? Are they long term? What does that typically look like?

00:04:45 Dr. Asia: Yeah. So a little bit of both. So I've had clients before that I had for three or four years. And that would be, and I'm saying, I'll say that we are a firm of nine, right? So it's me as the executive director, but we have contract consultants who are social workers, librarians, educators, counselors who work on the team. So you'll hear me say me and we, because I don't do this by myself, but I'll give you an example of a long-term client where the organization needed someone, someone to come in and support folks who were teaching in schools about social justice, but we're not educators.

00:05:24 Dr. Asia: So they asked us to come in and observe and to support them through curriculum development and coach them because we have teaching backgrounds, right? And so we continue to do that work for three years because they continue to get clients, school clients. And so they continue to need our help. So that was a longer term where we've had other ones that are shorter, like someone or an organization that might need curriculum development, right? So we had an organization that the founder wrote a short book on ways to support black and brown men around self-esteem and justice and all the healing and all these things.

00:06:01 Dr. Asia: And he said, hey, I think it was something like 15 chapters. And he said, can you write 15 lessons based on this book that I wrote? And then we did that work and turned it in and then the project ended. So really, it can just really depend on what folks need from us.

00:06:18 Jess: This is incredible. And I mean, we're going to definitely come back to managing a team of nine because that's the whole thing. But before we do, I'm just curious, is it safe to say your business, you've been consulting for roughly three or four years or has it been longer than that?

00:06:37 Dr. Asia: Four years this month, it'd be four years, yeah.

00:06:40 Jess: Oh my gosh, congratulations.

00:06:42 Dr. Asia: Thank you.

00:06:43 Jess: Can you walk us through four years ago what client acquisition looked like and then what it looks like today?

00:06:52 Dr. Asia: Yeah, so when I, I'll have to start by telling you how I became a consultant and then it'll make sense. So I was working in a nonprofit. I left teaching in 2018. I was pushed out of teaching in 2018 and then started working in a nonprofit that supported families to understand the access gap that black and brown families experience in schools right around education of their children. And I was fired from that job after a year because I was advocating for a non-toxic work environment. And I'm sure that because you all interview consultants, I'm sure there's lots of folks who were fired from a job and became consultants.

00:07:32 Dr. Asia: And so I was looking for work and one of my friends said, hey, could you, this is the one I talked about the longer project, can you help with the folks I'm hiring to go into the classroom and support them by coaching them and observing and things like that. And I say, yeah, I'll do that until I get a job. Like, cause I'm looking for work. I had unemployment at the time and a two week severance. And I'm not kidding when I say two weeks. And yeah, so I was working for her and collecting my unemployment. And then she said about a month in like, you know, you can do this full-time. You could be a consultant. You could do that.

00:08:11 Dr. Asia: And it just felt like lightning. Like, it was just, I just was very clear that was what I was supposed to do. And so I got my first coaching clients from someone asking me to work. Like it wasn't something that I was like, I'm gonna start a consulting business and then look for clients. It was she saying, like, I need you to do this project. And then me saying, okay, I can do this. And then texting friends and people that I had met when I was in the nonprofit sector saying like, I'm open for business. I'm a consultant with kids. Like that was as far as I had gotten at that point, supporting youth. And so it just kind of snowballed from there where people are like, oh, I have a project here, a project there.

00:08:53 Dr. Asia: One of my good friends, shout out to Kalinas Newsome, right away, she's like, I have two projects and they equal $60,000. And I was like, like three months in. I'm like, yes, right? So I replaced my income, my nonprofit income and with two projects. And it's kind of kept going like that. And it has been like that for a while. And then in February of this year, I asked myself, what happens if the word of mouth runs out? Right? Like what happens? And so I had to say like, there has to be this, I need to understand sales better. I need to understand marketing better.

00:09:31 Dr. Asia: And so I went on this search to try to really understand, like really work on my marketing and putting myself out there more just on LinkedIn. That's where you'll find me. And then in June or May, I signed up for a mastermind on sales. And in that mastermind, I learned about an app called Apollo. And if you haven't heard about Apollo, it's an app basically that allows you to reach out to multiple, like hundreds of people, not at one time, but it allows you to email folks. And so having Apollo and saying like, okay, I'm going to ask people in Alabama, for example, to meet with me and talk with me. And then what? Right?

00:10:19 Dr. Asia: And so having to figure out like, okay, what's my system? So they get on the 30 minute call. And then after that, I'm going to send them what? Okay, make something. And it just kind of, I slowly started to build it. And it's been this time of, like refining that process, right? Understanding what it means to like, nudge people multiple times and not being this like, I don't want to bother people. I don't like begging and just like getting it out of my head because the services that we provide are those that folks need and they may not have found people otherwise that could support them.

00:10:50 Dr. Asia: So it's been a lot of that now of working with and talking to complete strangers who I have no, like it's cold, complete cold. And of course the folks that I've been working with and connections of word of mouth, but just really being in that space of like, I can't just expect word of mouth to always be the way that I eat, so yeah.

00:11:12 Cindy: Okay, I'm super curious about this app and what you've experienced so far, because I do find that it is hard to do cold outreach and I would expect, or I've experienced that it's harder in our sector. I think I don't know if organizations have, like, baked in level of skepticism or what, but how has that been going and how are you measuring, like how are you measuring the success or ROI on it? And yeah, just tell us, let's get into the details of it because it's fascinating. And I haven't seen that many people do that successfully.

00:11:51 Dr. Asia: Yeah, so I think first of all, like the way that people decide what success is, is gonna vary. And for me, what I've learned and I'm thinking about, like reaching out to people and using apps like this one, it is, I have to give myself time to understand it and to use it fully. Right. Because, it's, it is, I've never used anything like it and it's a beast. So if you're like, this is really complicated, never mind. I'll go back to my, it's not going to work for you. I have… My name is Dr. Asia Lyons. I have a doctorate that was harder. These are equivalent at this point. Right.

00:12:26 Dr. Asia: But I know, because I'm a business owner, because I'm going to school, because I've had a whole child that I'm raising, because all things that I can figure things out if I give myself time. And so that's what it's been for me, a success looks like right now, like, okay, the app is working, I didn't crash it. Like I didn't go back on it, it's like something's wrong, there's red X's everywhere, which happened in the beginning. So that's how I'm deciding that I'm having success is that it's actually running.

00:12:52 Dr. Asia: And then the second is that, it reaches out to people. You'll say like, okay, I'm looking to speak to, or send this email out to, you know, you serving organizations in Ohio, who have one to 10 employees. And making this up. It's an after school program. And it says, okay, we, there's 200 folks. When you email them, some of them are going to be like, no, thank you. Some of them won't respond. I had someone tell me because I signed my emails in solidarity. In solidarity, Dr. Asia Lyons. And somebody responded, we are not in solidarity. And like all caps. Like, sir, you didn't have to, you could have just said, no, thank you. Right?

00:13:33 Dr. Asia: And so it is that piece of like, my feelings are hurt. Like, you know, like no solidarity, but I get over it, I delete. And then like the piece of talking to, like I said, talking to strangers. And I feel like I lost your question over in my COVID brain, but like talking to strangers and the first time that, like a little 30 minute link popped on my calendar and I didn't know who it was. Oh no, maybe they'll ghost, maybe they won't come up and they showed up and I was like, oh, they're showing up. And just, and every time it comes, hello, my name is Dr. Asia Lyons and just working on that, reading books about sales, right?

00:14:09 Dr. Asia: So that helped me set up my sales system. I use Trello, right? So I can track people and just a little bit by a little bit changing and shifting. But the success is I'm no longer going to vomit every time I talk to a complete stranger. Right. I talked to someone this morning and the small… The first, he said he was a, their first town in Texas and they support families who have… people in their family who have HIV and AIDS. I would have never talked to this man ever otherwise. Right. But I'm like, hello, my name is Dr. Asia and we're talking and we do the thing. And it's just getting, it's not easy. Right?

00:14:46 Dr. Asia: To me, it's still nerve-wracking and I'm still nervous, but I'm so much further than I was even three months ago. And I'm grateful for that. So that's my success with it. Right? Do I have close to a couple of sales? Yes, a few. Right? Do I have some more in my pipeline than I ever have had? Yes. The answer is a hundred percent. Yes. It's because I keep showing up and I keep getting rejected and getting accepted and so on and so forth. So, yeah.

00:15:16 Jess: All right, Dr. Asia, we are ready for our next round of rapid fire questions. You, up for playing?

00:15:24 Dr. Asia: Yeah, let's do it.

00:15:26 Jess: Okay, amazing. In our interview, you talked about giving gifts or gifting your team with just kind of thoughtful things throughout the year. What's your favorite gift to give?

00:15:40 Dr. Asia: Sure, so if you cannot, people might be listening to this and they can't see it, but I have lots of books in my office. So one thing that I love to give people is an embosser, a book embosser. So it's a stamp that folks who don't know, you can stamp into your books that says like the library, from the library of, and that person's name. And I love giving that to people because I'm like 95% sure that people don't have it already. And so I love to give that as a gift to my contract employees.

00:16:16 Jess: I love that and it's, like personal and custom, so smart.

00:16:20 Dr. Asia: Yeah.

00:16:21 Jess: You mentioned in our interview as well that you are a mentor to someone. I'm curious who some of your mentors might be, whether they know it or not. For example, maybe it's a book you've read or podcast you listen to, or it is a coach you've worked with. Who's a mentor that you're into?

00:16:40 Dr. Asia: Yeah, good question. So Rachel Rodgers, We Should All Be Millionaires. Like I'm going to ROI in January and Puerto Rico. Yeah. So she's the mentor. I listened to her book. I'm not kidding when I say five times and I've given it to people and I've told people to read it. So she's definitely a mentor. My sister is also a mentor of mine. She also owns a business. So back and forth, her name is China. Shout out to China. So we mentor, you know, each other. And then let's see.

00:17:16 Dr. Asia: Oddly enough, my husband and I listen to this rapper, his name is Larry June. Larry June, he has a lot of motivational rap. He talks about, get up, do what you had to do, take care of yourself, don't worry about other people, stay consistent. In the mornings, I'll tell my husband sometimes, turn on Larry June. He's like, victory. Larry June talks about this time where he was selling orange juice out of his car to make money to get studio time. Right. And he said he used to wake up in the morning and say to himself, good job, Larry.

00:17:52 Dr. Asia: Right, and so I tell my husband that sometimes, good job, babe, right? So those are some folks. And then, you know, people I see on YouTube that I just look up to are the folks at EYL, Earn Your Leisure, who talk about finance and money and all the things and real estate. And I look up to them because they've, we kind of watch them on YouTube from the ground up. And so that's always inspirational. Oh yeah.

00:18:18 Jess: I love that. Thank you for such a wide range of mentors. Appreciate that. My last question is, you mentioned that you live in Denver. What's, like your favorite, no questions asked. Someone's coming to visit you in town. Where are you taking them to like either get coffee, grab dinner, grab a bite? Where are you going?

00:18:39 Dr. Asia: So we're gonna go to the Garden of the Gods and Red Rocks. Because yeah, lots of people have heard of Red Rocks. It's the amphitheater. It's gorgeous. So anywhere in the mountains, like we just start driving West. Right. So we love that. We love Estes Park. So kind of like those spaces, the little towns up in the mountains that have, you know, the taffy and all little things and people walk around if they can take the altitude, right? ‘Cause altitude sickness is a thing. Here in town, so I live in Aurora, which is a suburb outside of Denver, and we have some great food in Aurora.

00:19:16 Dr. Asia: So there's a place on the street called Cuba Bakery and Cafe Fire. The food is delicious. Aurora is really known for its food. So I take them there. Probably take the… I wouldn't take them downtown because I don't like to, I can't parallel park. So I don't want to set myself up like that. But yeah, probably just drive around, looking around at all different places and spaces and, enough time to see the sunset, because the sunsets here are beautiful. So that's what we would do.

00:19:48 Jess: Awesome. Thanks for playing.

00:19:51 Dr. Asia: No problem.

00:19:55 Jess: I just have to give you major props for identifying and recognizing that maybe you didn't have experience or weren't necessarily taught how to sell in this process. And you went out there, you sought out resources, you dedicated time to do the thing that I think most business owners are terrified to do, which is reach out to people beyond their networks. So I just have to give you, like mad props for that because that's really hard to do. And I can tell in just what sounds like a couple of months, like you're doing it, which is like so rad.

00:20:35 Jess: The second thing I want to ask you about if you would be so kind as to give us a rough draft, I'm imagining that people's minds are actually exploding right now while they're listening that like there is a system, there is a tool like that someone can do this. Would you give us, like, a peek behind the curtain as, like what that initial pitch looks like? Like you do know their information, right? Like you just said, Texas, small town, focusing, with folks with HIV and AIDS. What is your pitch out to them look like? And how do you put, kind of your Dr. Asia twist on it?

00:21:16 Dr. Asia: Yeah, so you mean the first email that they get from me. So basically it's like–

00:21:20 Jess: Yeah, the first thing, like that initial send that hits people's, I'm guessing inbox, or is it like a DM situation?

00:21:28 Dr. Asia: It's an inbox because my people are now, LinkedIn. Like they're out, like supporting children. They have no interest in being on LinkedIn.

00:21:36 Jess: But see, even knowing that, that's amazing. Like I want everyone that's listening to hear that because Dr. Asia has done the research to figure that part out. And so, while it does sound like you sound up on LinkedIn, people are not hanging out there all day long. And so, she's getting in their inboxes, which shout out for inboxes. Okay, back to the script.

00:22:07 Dr. Asia: Yeah, so basically the first email is, I just asked, that this is who I am, this is what we do. I talk about like just really quick bullet points. We support organizations with these four things. Just really interested in seeing if we can have a conversation about how my organization can support your organization. Here's my 30 minute link. And I think the second part is the most important part. I say to people, "If you are not the right person that I should be sending this email to, will you please forward it on to the person that it should go to?" That's the most important part because so many people like, oh, I sent it over to the education department, good luck or whatever, they'll reach out versus like, that's not me click, right? That it gives them something, what do they call that the thing to do? I can't remember the term, but it allows them something to do with it versus just close it, the email. And so like I said, I put the 30 minute link in there and it's taking some crafting.

00:23:06 Dr. Asia: I have an A, B test, I'm testing, I had A, B, C, and D when I first started. Then I kind of looked and said like, oh, these two aren't being really open. That's why I stopped using those. But the two emails are the same, the open, the title of the email is different, right? But that's what it is. It's just like, this is the information, this is about me. And most people, when they respond, they'll say, I saw your website and we're interested in talking. So you already know that beyond that email, before they click that button, a lot of people are looking at your website, they're looking at your LinkedIn, they're looking at who you are. So it's not that email alone, which is why that marketing piece for me has been so important. I have to show up in spaces so that they have something to look at when they look for me, right? And then that's it, and we kind of go from there, we continue this conversation that people want to work with us.

00:24:00 Cindy: This is so good because I don't think we've had anyone on the podcast who's been able to do this like this and so well. So, okay, I have questions, but before I ask my questions, I just want to reinforce, I think part of your success with this is the clarity of what you do and who you serve. And I see so many consultants who are like, I can do anything, right? And you're like, here's who I help. And you can target those people with this app, which is so cool. And how you help them is like part of that first introduction. So, I just think that that is so important to just like reinforce because I think that's part of your genius. So that's super cool. My questions, both Jess and I are wondering about your subject lines. So maybe I'll ask that and then come back to my next question. What subject lines do you use?

00:25:05 Dr. Asia: Let's see. So I'm looking at my email because it's interestingly enough, I just now I don't even see it in my mind. So, one of them is connecting to discuss youth programming and curriculum support. That's one of them. And the other one, I'm looking through my email to see if I can pull it up.

00:25:26 Cindy: I mean, that's super, again, like it's super specific to the point clear. I love it.

00:25:33 Dr. Asia: Yeah. I don't see the other one coming up because they're testing at different places, so it may be deleted, but like a follow-up if, so I have a setup. So like, if the person doesn't respond with anything, then I'll follow up like three or four days later and the follow-up says following up on youth programming support.

00:25:51 Cindy: Yeah.

00:25:51 Dr. Asia: It's like, this is like the youth programming. This is what we do versus like. Do you need something from, like, I'm very clear, like, youth programming, that's what we do.

00:26:01 Cindy: Yeah, I love this specificity again. I think that makes such a difference. Okay, my other question was, you, when you were telling us what's in the email, you call your business an organization. And I'm curious-

00:26:17 Dr. Asia: I call it a firm..

00:26:18 Cindy: Okay, okay. Because I was like, oh, that's also interesting. And I wonder if that lands for other organizations differently, but you say firm. So, it's pretty clear that it's a business as well.

00:26:32 Dr. Asia: And some people still do ask, is this for a fee, is this a nonprofit? But not enough for me to say like something's up with my messaging. I like something off with it.

00:26:41 Cindy: I think it's a default in our sector. Like, can we get it for free?

00:26:47 Dr. Asia: Yeah, and you know, I'll say like, no, but you know, people say I don't have it in my budget. And I'll tell them, you know, we are also very open to supporting you with grant writing. So if they're writing a grant, we'll send them language to put into the grant that they're writing because actually we prefer that you not have the budget. Because if you have a budget, you've guessed what my work is worth. And I prefer that you not have the money. And then you say like, okay, this is how much. And then you drop it in there and you get exactly how much we need versus, well, we can do, you have...We have $2,000. What can you do for that? Like nothing. So yeah, that's, that's, that's been in my experience.

00:27:25 Cindy: Oh, so, so true. I, yes, like I've seen that so many times, organizations put like $2,000 when it's $40,000. Like they just don't know.

00:27:38 Dr. Asia: And there's so many of us consultants who will take that project on because we think it's going to like, then it'll get bigger after that or, and it never does. And you are so mad and resentful versus like having some faith to say like something to work out and just say, no, thank you and move on. And people come back with money or they don't. But these taking these like very small offers that may be small to you relative to like whatever your situation is, it's unfair to you and it's unfair to that client as well.

00:28:08 Cindy: Yeah. When you give them language for their grant applications, is that something you have like, pre-done and is universal or do you customize it?

00:28:18 Dr. Asia: Yeah. So we'll send them the proposal. The proposals, our proposal is already written essentially. What we're adding into the proposal at the end is the notes that I've written in the conversation, we'll go into the proposal. So they need, this is for this, this and this. So 90 percent of it is already written. I'll have to add in what we plan to do, what services we're providing. 20 lesson plans versus 10, or fill in a blank, but it's pretty universal. And then we'll tell them, like, if this is not what you need, if you need something else, then let us know. But thus far we haven't had anybody say, like, we need more details because before I send the proposal between conversation one and conversation two, I send them a PDF that has like 10 slides about my organization, our pricing, everything in it. So they can use that as well. And I just want people to know, I don't surprise people with the price at the end. They get that after meeting one. Like don't waste your time with people, right? Tell them how much it is and they can make a decision if they wanna continue the conversation. But yeah, that's what we do.

00:29:27 Cindy: I love it.

00:29:28 Jess: That's good. I know. So like specificity, clarity, like all the things are so good. I wanna change directions and talk about this team you have, if that's okay, because nine people to oversee is the big job as the leader of an organization. So I guess we could go in a lot of directions, but one of the first things that came to mind when you mentioned that number is that you were let go from an organization because you brought up the fact that it was a toxic work environment to work in. And I'm wondering as a leader, what are some of the things that you do to make sure that you create the opposite of a toxic work environment for your staff?

00:30:17 Dr. Asia: Yeah. So the first thing, and I said this earlier, but I want to emphasize these are contract employees, so they don't work all day long for me, right? Someone's probably going to say like, well, that doesn't count. Okay, that's fine if you don't believe so. it's enough for me.

00:30:32 Jess: Yeah, you're still managing them.

00:30:35 Dr. Asia: Yeah, it's still a lot. So couple things. One, all the folks on my team don't work all at the same time, right? There may be three or four people who have a project and some people don't. And so if you don't have a project, we don't like just have random meetings where you need to show up as a contract person. Like you living your life, you're working. So that's just not an issue of like all of us meeting at once. That is a goal though, right? I want all my consultants to be eating well, right? And I want them all to have projects at the same time, if they choose to. So just know that that's on the forefront of my mind and they know that. But as far as like managing even two or three people, that's been a work, a project that I've worked on and trying to really think about for a long time. The first thing is that I've hired people who are not like me, but we've jelled because I've seen them in community, right? We've worked together, we've been in school together, several of the folks on my team, we went to doc school together, right? And so I've seen them in classroom in action.

00:31:36 Dr. Asia: I've seen them in and on things that you know, okay, these people, when they had no idea that I didn't have a business at the time, they were doing what they needed to do. And I'm like, yeah, I would roll with that person. So, like working with these people is very easy too. And they're already professionals. They're counselors, they're librarians, they're teachers. They know what to do. And it's not that like, please bring the turn this in, please get this thing to, right? It's just not, it's been very easy. And I think because I know the people that I've hired, I haven't hired someone that was a complete stranger to me except for my virtual assistant.

00:32:06 Dr. Asia: But besides that, it's just been fairly easy. So yeah, that's, and then I got meet, when people have projects, we meet 30 minutes a week. I catch up with the folks, make sure everything is going good. I check in all the things. At holiday times, I love to send them something to say, like, I appreciate you, even if they don't have a project. Haven't seen them in six months, eight months a year, right? And just kind of what would I have wanted from my former employer that I didn't have that I can do for someone else, right? So, yeah.

00:32:45 Jess: I love that, you seem very thoughtful and mindful of holding space and taking care of your team in a way that maybe, you know, you weren't gifted but you're doing your thing to make sure that that stops with your last employer. So we were introduced to you, Dr. Asia, through our mutual friend. And I would say that Cindy and I are both in the Camila fan club. And you are about to go on the next retreat in Costa Rica, I believe. And I'm curious for folks listening because I have yet to speak to one nonprofit consultant, especially those who are parenting right now, who is not just like, completely fried. I'd love for you to talk through around the investments you make in response to rest and being in community with other nonprofit consultants, like marrying those two things together. Because it's so important and it's like one of those things we all know we should do, but we for whatever reason find excuses not to do and you're over here walking the walk. So I'm just, yeah, I'm just curious about your kind of thought process around prioritizing that.

00:34:11 Dr. Asia: Yeah, so the first thing I would say is that me working for myself is a form of rest because I get to choose my clients and I don't have what I experienced in the workplace when I was working in the nonprofit in school, which is racial battle fatigue, right? I don't experience racism related stress because I get to say like, no, you're giving me the heebie-jeebies. So, I'm like, we're done with this project, right? So, that's the first thing is like, I set up my business so that I can, in the daily, not have to deal with some of the oppression that people, black women, experience in the workplace. So that's the first layer. The second is, like, going out to eat and coffee and the things with other consultants out here, black women specifically, black, brown, indigenous women has been so great. We just chill and we talk and we just do the thing and relax and then we get back to work. And so not saving it all for a vacation or saving it all for a retreat, but like it's Tuesday and you know that you hang out with such and such on Tuesday or you have a shout to Airbnb and Harper.

00:35:24 Dr. Asian: One of the friends that I mentor, but I don't know, like we're just friends also. And so every two weeks we talk for an hour and we're chatting and that's rest, right? There's no, like there's agenda because she has things she wants to talk about but we're just in the flow and kicking it and it feels really good. And then there's also like being, like the weekends, my daughter has softball. I'm not gonna call myself a softball mom because I can't do that. That's just not, but like she has practice on Tuesdays and Thursdays. And so I am intentional, or excuse me, Mondays and Wednesdays. And so I'm intentional about taking her, even though my husband can take her, just to force myself to be outside and sit down and we'll just kind of be at the ball field, right? And now I might listen to a book on my audible, but that's also like, get away from the computer, like step back and be outdoors, right? You know, maybe I'll go walk around the ball field. Maybe I'll just sit there and just kind of watch her play.

00:36:21 Dr. Asia: but that's another layer of it. And then Saturdays I go and go to her games. And that's also, I just, you know, I will the cart, I sit down, I do the chair and I stare. I have no idea what's happening. I know she runs the first base. I know, and I'm just there, right? And then I have the vacations. I've had vacations with my family. We go camping and, you know, camping, like glamping, like with showers. And then there's sometimes like get the shovel out because like we do all the things. This is Colorado, and then this retreats, this is the first time I've been on a women's retreat like this out of the country. And I did grapple with a lot of like, okay, my husband is going to be here with Zoe and she has to, he has to do all the things, blah, blah. But if I didn't do it, then it'd be a long stretch before I found some place to be just hanging out with me, right? Especially in a space that's specifically for women leaders. And I knew the opportunity, like I had to take it up, right? And so that's what I did. So it's like all these different layers of rest that I think about and I try to be very mindful of because I am one who can sit at my desk in my office every day and bang it out all day long. And I try not to, so that's it.

00:37:41 Cindy: Oh, so-

00:37:42 Jess: You're with your people. Dr. Asia I feel like Cindy and I are that way too. Yeah.

00:37:49 Cindy: It's, we could very easily just work all the time, but also love, love rest, love breaks. My kids are into soccer, so I'm doing that and sitting at the soccer field with my audio books. Same thing, yeah. Okay, we were running out of time, which is so sad, but we always have to make sure we're asking our favorite confession question, which is for a confession. So yeah, will you share with us something about running your business that feels like a confession, something you're not readily to admit?

00:38:34 Dr. Asia: A confession that I'm not readily able to admit. Let me think about that. Something that I'm not ready to admit. So maybe it is that one thing that's really tough that you kind of know is gonna have to happen that's been really hard is having to let people go, right, to fire folks. I had to let go of someone who worked on my team and it was super difficult and I hated it so much and I let it drag on and on and on and on, especially because she was a black woman. And it just, like, I just knew it wasn't a good fit, and I just kept letting it go. And so it just really sucks. And as much as I'm talking about like, yeah, do this, do this thing, like I still have that same space that I, where I'm like in the bathroom crying about like people being racist, is the same space where I was just like, I don't wanna let this person go, and I have to do it. And it took a long time, like over a year.

00:39:52 Dr. Asia: And it sucked so bad and it really left a bad taste in my mouth and it took a long time to process through that. So I guess that's my confession, like firing people. People know that it sucks, but like that was the one reason why I didn't want to go into business is I was afraid of that. Like I don't want to have to, I told my husband that I don't want to have to fire somebody, but I want to work for myself. And I did it and it sucked and I'm going to keep on doing it. So if I have to, I don't mean like I'll keep firing people, but I'll keep shifting people out of the organization if it's not a good fit. But I don't know if that's a confession or not, but that's what I got.

00:40:31 Cindy: That is. That's such a good one. And it is really hard, it's really hard. That's also been my hardest experience in business. So yeah, and there's nothing that makes it easier other than at the end of the day. You have to do what's right for you, but it hurts. It hurts. All right, Dr. Asia, where can our listeners connect with you and learn more about what you're doing?

00:41:03 Dr. Asia: Sure, so like I said earlier, I live on LinkedIn. So you can find me at Dr. Asia Lyons, L-Y-O-N-S and my website, lyonseducationalconsulting.com. I also, as a side note, have a podcast, not necessarily connected to my business, but people can listen to my podcast. It's called the Exit Interview: A Podcast for Black Educators on exitinterviewpodcast.com. And yeah, feel free folks to email me, asia@lionseducationalconsulting.com. So that's it.

00:41:41 Jess: We appreciate you. Thank you for your time.

00:41:43 Cindy: Thank you.

00:41:45 Dr. Asia: Yeah, no problem. Thank you for having me on the show. I really appreciate it.

00:41:52 Cindy: Thank you again for listening to the Confessions Podcast for nonprofit coaches and consultants. If you enjoyed today's episode, which I sure hope you did, you can show your support in one of three ways.

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00:42:21 Cindy: And of course, make sure you subscribe so you can get the latest and greatest interviews as they drop every Thursday.

00:42:28 Jess: And to our fellow nonprofit coaching and consulting friends, remember we're an open book and here to answer your burning biz questions.

00:42:36 Cindy: See you next time.