“One of my personal values is curiosity. And I like to think that I approach email and business with curiosity.” – Eman Ismail

You’ve heard us talk about the value of having an email list, well, today we’re diving all in. In this episode of The Confessions Podcast, we are joined by Eman Ismail, an email strategist and copywriter who started with a small email list of 400 people and was able to make $35,000 from her launch. Eman now helps online business owners and ecommerce brands make money through email and encourages them to nurture their email lists.

Highlights:

• Transition from working for charity to for profit business owner

• The value of having a quality email list 

• How to nurture your email list 

• The anatomy of an effective email

• Finding your creative flow when writing

• How to get people in your email list

• Building a solid email list by learning the importance of subject lines, preview text, and images in emails 

Connect with Eman Ismail :

Linkedin: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/eman-i307

Website: https://emancopyco.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/emancopyco/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/emancopyco

Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/mistakes-that-made-me/id1635998876

Find Us Online:  https://www.confessionswithjessandcindy.com/

Connect with Cindy:

Cindy Wagman Coaching https://cindywagman.com/

The Good Partnership https://www.thegoodpartnership.com/

Connect with Jess: 

Out In the Boons: https://www.outintheboons.me/

Transcript:

00:00:00 Cindy: Welcome to the Confessions Podcast. I'm Cindy Wagman.

00:00:03 Jess: And I'm Jess Campbell. We're two former in-house-nonprofit pros turned coaches and consultants to purpose-driven organizations.

00:00:11 Cindy: After years of building up our separate six-figure businesses from scratch, we've thrown a lot of spaghetti at the wall and have lived to see what sticks.

00:00:20 Jess: We're on a mission to help other nonprofit coaches and consultants looking to start or scale sell their own businesses past the six-figure mark by pulling back the curtain.

00:00:30 Cindy: Whether you're still working inside a nonprofit and thinking of one day going out on your own or you've been running your consulting business for years, you understand that working with nonprofits is just different. We're giving you access to the business leaders who serve nonprofits as their clients. You know, the people who truly get it.

00:00:52 Jess: No more gatekeeping. No more secrets. This podcast is going to give you an inside look at what running a successful nonprofit coaching and consulting business looks like. Basically, we're asking people how much money they make, how they get paid, and what has and hasn't worked in their businesses.

00:01:11 Cindy: We'll listen in as these leaders share their insights, their numbers, and the good, the bad, and the ugly when it comes to building a nonprofit coaching or consulting business. We're going to empower you to make the power moves that give you the income and freedom you set out to create from day one.

00:01:28 Jess: You ready? Let's go.

00:01:31 Jess: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a real treat today. I'm once again, fangirling like I've never fangirled before because we have the one and only Eman Ismail from Eman Copy Co. with us to talk about one thing that is so easy to watch, and read and take in and then sometimes can be a totally different beast when we have to do it ourselves. And to have the expert of all experts here on our show to talk to us about her business and what she teaches when it comes to email copywriting is just an absolute delight..So Eman, welcome to the show.

00:02:11 Eman: Hi, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

00:02:15 Jess: You're the best. Especially because Eman is coming from us across the pond and it's very late her time, so we're extra grateful. To just dive in, I said I'm a super fan, I have heard you on many podcasts, I'm on your email list, I follow you on social. But for folks who may be just meeting you for the first time, can you tell us a little bit about you and your business?

00:02:36 Eman: Yeah. So I am an email strategist and copywriter, and that means I help online business owners and ecommerce brands fire up their conversions, evergreen their sales and turn fans into 'superfans,' which is basically a really fancy way of saying I help business owners make money through email. But it's also so much more than just about money, it's also about really just building strong relationships with subscribers and having an email list that actually works and that is responsive and that helps make you money in your business.

00:03:07 Jess: And you also have a background in nonprofits like a lot of the people listening, so tell them a little bit about how you made your transition from the charity sector to now a for profit business owner.

 00:03:20 Eman: Yeah, so I was working for a food charity, and I like to say I was running the comms department, but I was the comms department, which is why I was running the comms department .

0:03:32 Jess: Relatable, very relatable.

00:03:34 Eman: Right, exactly. So it was me doing... gosh, everything from writing the emails, writing and copying the website to doing the whole marketing campaigns, managing all the people we hired, the freelancers that we hired, the designers, the video editors doing the videos, everything. But the part that I loved most about that role was the copyrighting aspect. And I loved the fact that I could hit and send them an email and then watch the donations come in. And that was really powerful for me. And that was a real moment where I was like, "Wow, this email stuff is powerful." I'm addicted to this idea of being just able to hit, being able to hit send and then boom, money comes in, right ?

00:04:20 Eman: So I love that work. I found the charity sector quite hard, to be honest, because the work that I was doing was well related to people not having food, starving, hungry, dying. It was a lot, mentally, psychologically to be in that every day. And I was the one dealing, reading the case studies and trying to source the case studies, creating case studies and talking to these people, our team members all over the world trying to create these stories. And it was a lot. And then on top of that, I was commuting across the country from one city to another. I had a then two year old, and I would get home. I mean, I would leave my house at what? 07:30, 8 AM. and I would get home at 07:30 PM, 08:00 PM. I had a child minder who'd pick up my son because I couldn't. And I'd come home and he would be fast asleep on the sofa, on the couch, waiting for me because he'd refused to go to bed without me. And so I'd get home every night, I'd rush home to try and get home for him before he fell asleep. And I actually think about it, it still makes me so upset because I'd get home and he'd be asleep and I'd just be so disappointed. And I'd just think , how did I get to this point where I took this job so that I could create a better life for us? But now, I don't get to see my son.

00:05:36 Eman: And I remember sitting down and having a conversation with my then manager and asking, "Well," telling him something needs to change. I need to work from home more because it was totally possible for me to do my job from home, but he didn't want that. I wanted more money because I was not being paid very much at the time. And none of it was... we weren't on the same page and we just weren't on the same page. So I thought , "Well, okay, I always want to start my own business and now looks like now is the time." So I handed my resignation. I worked a month's notice in that month. I kind of like, got my ducks in a row. And then I left that job on a Friday and by Monday I had started my business and had clients and was working on my business now. Things did not go smoothly. I was charging at this time like £15 an hour. So that makes it sound like things were successful from the start. They were not. But I mean, everyone has got to start somewhere. So...

00:06:27 Jess: I love a good action taker.

00:06:29 Cindy: Oh my goodness. Also, that story is so relatable, I think, to all of our listeners coming out of the nonprofit sector. Like most consultants in this space have worked in house and they start their business for so many of the same reasons. I even got emotional listening to your story. I know my son, like, last night my husband worked late and my son was like, "Make sure he wakes me when he gets home." Yeah, that's his home.

00:06:59 Eman: It does, yeah.

00:07:01 Cindy: But I think it's also such a great testament to we can be successful outside of working in nonprofits. And I want to kind of dive into setting the stage around copy and specifically email copy. I mean, I just love, you're so succinct in what you say you do, right? Like conversion sales, fans to superfans, obviously, you know what you're doing. But a lot of people, I think, are very overwhelmed with the idea of building an email list and doing email marketing. And sometimes, is it important? Is it something I should be focusing on? Let's talk a little bit about what the value is of having... it's not the size of your list, but the quality of your list and what that does for your business.

00:07:55 Eman: Yeah, absolutely. And to just kind of put that into, I guess to give you a good example. I have quite a small email list. I probably have about 2000 people on it right now. But, you know, when I was pregnant with my second child and I was thinking about maternity leave and thinking, "Oh god, I've got to fund this maternity leave. As you know, I'm just a self-employed person. This is a lot. And I decided to create this Mastermind for Copywriters or twelve week experience of coaching with me. And I launched that Mastermind to a list of about, I think it's 425 copywriters, and it specifically went to just the copywriters. So it was like a small segment, 425 copywriters, I sold out that Mastermind and had a $35,000 launch. And so you really can make money from a small list. You just have to know how to take care of that list and how to make money from that list. It really isn't about the numbers. It's about the quality of the people on the list and also what you've been doing to lead up to that list.

0:09:03 Cindy: All right. So you launched with 400 email addresses. You made $35,000, which is huge, right ? And you sold out your Mastermind. What happened after that?

00:09:16 Eman: After that, I spent a lot of time getting one to one clients as well. I actually created a service that was a VIP week. So it was a very kind of intense service, but it was high ticket. It allowed me to work with more clients at a higher rate, but in a contained amount of time, because I was now on a ticking timer waiting for the baby to come. And so I was able to, with the help of the Mastermind and launch it on the list. And also, this once one client work, I was able to fund my own maternity leave. And so, I self-funded a seven month maternity leave, which was very drastically different to the first experience I had, where I had no maternity leave when I had my first baby. And so, that experience really, I guess, lit a fire in me because I didn't want to experience that again. It was horrible, the first time and the second time was so much nicer. And so that's what I was working towards. And so it's amazing, even for me, as someone who does this work to see what an email list can do for you, we say it makes you money in your business. That's great and all, but what does that money allow you to do in your life? That's where it really makes a difference.

 00:10:34 : I love that. And congratulations. That's incredible.

00:10:36 Eman: Thank you.

00:10:39 Jess: And as we've talked about the power of an email list, I'm a huge super fan of email. I often think that people, whether it's intimidation or it's effort, there's not always the same sort of instant gratification as there is in social, which I think people equate to being profitability or success, but likes and comments are not the same as literally $35,000 in your bank account. And so I'm curious, as someone that follows you, and I'm sure I'm not capturing every single piece of content you put out every single time. I definitely notice you in my inbox, but it never feels overwhelming, spammy. It feels very organic, very natural. And so for folks maybe just wanting to get started, they're just wondering, "Well, how do I start?" You said at the beginning, taking care of your subscribers. What does that mean? If you could, in one, two, or three ways, give us examples of what does nurturing your email list looks like? What are some ways you can do that? absolutely.

00:11:48 Eman: Absolutely. And I just want to touch on what you said about it taking time. Email can feel like a bit of a slow game. It doesn't have to be, but it can feel like that. And that's why the nurturing aspect comes in, because you really have to take... Like you said, take care of your subscriber, nurture your subscriber before they're even thinking about spending any money with you. I mean, you do have those people who are fast decision makers and who will just jump in, but most people need a bit more time. And so one of the ways to take care of your subscribers is to have a welcome sequence set up for when people actually join your email list. So for everyone that joins my email list, they are entered into this welcome sequence, which is an automated series of emails that goes out over a certain amount of time, let's say a week, for example. And what that sequence is, well, first of all, it delivers the thing that I promised I would give people in exchange for their email address. So it delivers my lead magnet in the very first email. And then the rest of it is really an introduction to me and who I am or what I do. And it's also a great time for me to, I guess, show my subscribers how much value I can add to their lives and their business. So I have like, my most popular pieces of content going out in that welcome sequence.

00:13:08 Eman: For example, I did this email teardown of Kylie Jenner's... You know Kylie Cosmetics? Kylie Jenner's business. So I did an email tear down of her email strategy and her emails that go out under Kylie Cosmetics. And this is one of the most popular pieces of content that I've put out. And everyone seems to love it. I think people just love the idea that these big stars don't always know what they're doing and can get things wrong, and that big companies can get things wrong as well because there were lots of things wrong in their email strategy. So that's one of the things that goes in my welcome sequence and that shows people that, number one, I'm an email expert, I know I'm talking about. It also gives them a good idea of what working with me might look like in terms of how I think strategically in terms of email and that stuff. And then the rest of the sequence is really about, again, establishing myself as an authority. I'm sharing podcast interviews that I've done so people can get to know me better, can get to know how to do email better.

00:14:04 Eman: And so, by the time people have finished that welcome sequence, they have a good knowledge and experience of me, what I do, how I can help. And so by that point, they're usually liking what I have to offer, otherwise they'll unsubscribe, which is fine. And then, only once they have actually gone through the welcome sequence and finished the welcome sequence do they start to receive my weekly newsletter. And that's why people will feel like, "Okay, this felt like a good journey." They can't communicate that if I ask them, they won't say, like, "Oh, yeah, this feels like a good journey," but it's just like you said, hopefully, they feel like, "Okay, this was really natural. I like this. I want more of this. I know what's coming. There are no surprises. Eman has already told me that I'm going to receive a few emails this week and then things will calm down and I'll get a weekly newsletter after that," and so people know what to expect.

00:15:01 Eman: And then in the newsletter, I'm writing emails that I would want to read. So I think the first thing is that if I ever write an email and just like, "Ugh, I just think it feels difficult to read or I'm not enjoying," like writing this, or I'm not enjoying reading it and editing it, I will not send it," because that is a very good indication of the fact that no one else is going to enjoy it either. So I like to tell lots of stories. Sometimes I get straight to the point and I'm educating, and I think that's another thing. I love to educate my audience when it comes to email, but not everything is about education. You know, people think that when we say give value in your emails, it always has to be teaching people something and it's not always that. For me, sometimes providing value is teaching my subscribers about email or something cool that I learn or I'm working on. Other times it's making them laugh, making them smile. In some cases, it's been making them cry, making them think or reflect or try something new. And so, yeah, I think my approach to email and business really is experimentation. One of my personal values is curiosity. And I like to think that I approach email and business with curiosity.

00:16:14 Cindy: I love that .

 00:16:18 Jess: Okay, we are back with another round of our rapid fire questions. Eman, are you up for playing?

00:16:25 Eman: I am ready. Let's do this.

00:16:27 Jess: Okay, great. I know that you are the ultimate boy mom. What is your favorite activity to do with your little ones?

00:16:37 Eman: Oh, probably basketball. My oldest son loves basketball, and it's because we have balls around all the time. My youngest son is now loving playing with balls, and it's the thing that just makes him laugh the most. So, yeah, basketball, playing with balls. Softer balls for the younger one.

00:16:54 Jess: Love it. If you were not a copywriter, what is the thing you think you'd be doing ?

00:17:00 Eman: Oh, oh my gosh. I would be... I'd be a product business owner. I don't know what the product is but the idea of having something and then boxing it up and making the box really pretty and just creating that whole entire customer experience and sending it over to them and having them unboxing it. The whole thing just gets me so excited. And even now I think, "Oh, could I be a product business owner? No, don't do that to yourself." Well, it's a dream somewhere inside me.

00:17:31 Jess: We are talking at the top of 2023, and I'm curious if you have a word for the year, and if so, what is it?

00:17:41 Eman: I was thinking about this today. Okay. Financial literacy is the one because I really just want to do better and know a lot more than I do. So I spent a lot of time reading. I think people who are more relatable to me, like Rachel Rogers, and I love her work and the conversations that she has. And there's another lady called Vernouch? I can't remember her surname, but just conversations, I think really guided by women around money who were just teaching me how to be more financially literate .

00:18:25 Jess: I love it. That was perfect. Thanks for playing.

00:18:32 Cindy: I had these questions and you kind of just blew them out of the one. I was going to ask you what's the anatomy or the elements of an effective email? But I feel like you just answer, which is like play around and there's different types of emails you can and should be sending, so I don't think there's an answer to that. But what do you like to see in emails or going back to what you said about like, I want to read it. What are some things that you look for when you want to read something or that you find engaging?

00:19:10 Eman: The first one is a good hook. Well, actually, before that, let's subject line a good subject line, because if it doesn't have a good subject line, we don't even get to the hook inside the email. We're not even opening the email. The first thing is a subject line and also the preview text or in some places, it's called different things within different email service providers, depending on whether you're with the MailChimp or active campaign or ConvertKit, whatever. But essentially, that second line that comes after the subject line, people always ignore that line and leave it blank or write the same thing in it for every email that they're sending. And it's so important, it's just as important as the subject line. It does the same job as the subject line and you should really make most of it. So that's the first thing.

00:19:52 Eman: And then the second thing is the hook. I don't think business owners realize how important the first few lines are. And even me, as an email copywriter, I will write an email. I was just writing some months' newsletters for a client, and I was going through this email that I had written. And it's great because the first time I write it, I'm like, "Okay, I'm just writing." But now afterwards, I'm going back to edit, and now I'm trying to cut out the boring parts, the fluff, the things that just make this slow to read. That doesn't feel so great. It's usually always the first couple of lines that get caught because we waffle at the beginning when we're trying to get into our groove of writing. And so usually, you just want to cut the first few lines up. Sometimes it's the whole paragraph and get to eat of it. And that first line is so important because that's what will dictate whether people continue reading.

 00:20:46 Jess: Okay, in terms of a technical question, I'm personally trained in conversion copywriting for fundraising, and so I apply a lot of those practices to my business copywriting but that doesn't mean they're correct or anything. And I'm just curious, like rapid fire style, long, short emails. Images, no images. First names, no first names. Bold, Italicized. Bullet points or paragraphs. Give it to us. What are you...?

 00:21:20 Eman: Such a great question. Such a great question. And it got me excited because I have so many opinions on all of this. So what was the first thing you said? You said so many. My mind is just like...

00:21:30 Jess: Okay, I'll give them to you. Usually, I would say this to a rapid fire round, but those will be different kinds of questions. Okay, so let's start with first name or just launching into your copy, addressing someone like a salutation like hey, Jess or just start with your story.

00:21:44 Eman: Let's start with the whole, go straight into it. Yeah, complete like very rarely, maybe on a feedback email, like, "Hey, you came to my workshop. Hey man, you came to my workshop. I want to know how you found it." That's maybe when I might use hey, some kind of greeting to open up the email. Mostly, I could do it and that's the first thing I always tell my clients so I'll just cut because it's just a waste of space, a waste of time in that time where the reader could have been reading the actual email and getting hooked into it and just really engaged and excited about your email. They're just reading, "Hey, Jess. Hey, Cindy." And it's just a waste of everyone's time. So get straight to it.

00:22:26 Jess: I love that. I love it. I've been playing around with both and I am trying to get like three or four months of data to compare, but that's really, really helpful. Okay, what about images? Oh, go ahead. Something else…

00:22:37 Eman: I just want to say that doesn't mean that I'm telling you not to use the first name personalization, just use it in different ways. So instead, I might use it in the middle of a sentence. At the end of a sentence where it comes more naturally in the place where I might say someone's name when I'm talking to them. It's not always at the beginning of a sentence like people want to put it in an email and then it comes across really unnatural, a little bit weird. You can fit it into different places and it just feels really natural.

00:23:04 Jess: I love that. I actually had a subscriber of mine write back to me. He was like, "I see what you did there with that mid email first name." He's like, "I'm going to use that."

00:23:17 Eman: Exactly. And you know, some people will literally reply and be like, "I actually thought this was an email that you wrote to me. I thought it was actually for me."

00:23:25 Jess: Nice. Okay, next one. Images, no images, combination of both?

00:23:31 Eman: I'm always more for images than not images because yeah, and actually, I'm a big fan of GIFs as well, as you well know, GIFs being on my newsletter. Images and GIFs break up the copy really nicely and it just helps with readability, especially if you have a long email. That's when images are really great. I'm a big fan of them. However, the reason I didn't just say images all the time is because sometimes, again, it's about that variety and it's about sometimes surprising your subscribers. Maybe you want to have like a short email and it doesn't need any images and it's just a short email going out and that's okay. I think changing things up is part of what makes your email list interesting. If you're doing the same thing over and over again, it can be a little bit boring for you as someone who's writing it and also for the people reading.

00:24:22 Jess: Okay, how about long form versus short form emails?

00:24:27 Eman: I tend to fall on the side of long form because I love to tell a good story. However, it really is just about saying what you need to say and whether that's long or short, it is what it is. As long as you have said what you need to say, if you're selling something, as long as you feel like, "Okay, this is a good sales email, this will do what I want it to do." It doesn't matter if it's long or short. I think people are scared of writing long emails because they think people won't read it and it's just not true. People, as Joanna Wieb once said, "People don't read boring copy," but they will read long copy as long as it's not boring. So that's where I fall on that.

00:25:06 Jess: How about bold bullet points? Italicize all these different styles. .

00:25:15 Eman: Oh, yeah. And I think actually, it's exactly as you said, it's a style. Maybe some people don't lean into it that much, but for me, especially because it's an email, you can't hear me speaking, all that kind of formatting. That's my voice in the email. So I'm capitalizing some words. I'm using exclamation. I'm a big fan of emojis, I use GIFs, I embolden them a lot. I italicize and actually, I use italicization. Really, I think, interestingly, it's almost like my inner voice in email. So I'll say something and then usually, if I italicize something it's because it's in parentheses and it's like a continuation of a thought that isn't supposed to bother the rest of the email, but gives you insight into what's going on in my mind. I'm a huge fan of using formatting to just increase your style and your personality as well.

00:26:04 Jess: And letting your words breathe. Like you said, it's hard for the eye to read long, thick paragraphs. So breaking up that text, I think is really helpful for the eye.

 00:26:12 Eman: Yeah, and it's actually about conversion and readability, too, because if everything is just the same, it's very hard to read. And if people can't read it, they won't do what you want to do whatever the call to action is. And also, most people will skim the email first. And so you want to write so that you're writing for those skim readers so that anyone who is just skimming can see, "Okay. Oh, this is interesting. This emboldened piece, that sounds interesting. Actually, I'm going to go to the top of the email and read this properly .

 00:26:47 Jess: Okay. And then my last one, which Cindy actually, it was already in my head, Cindy, we're mind readers. How do you feel about a PS sentence?

00:26:56 Eman: Oh, gosh, I love PSs. I might use them a bit too much because I love a good PS.

00:27:02 Jess: Okay, I actually have one more.

00:27:04 Eman: Okay, go ahead.

00:27:05 Jess: How do you feel about one call to action versus many calls to action?

00:27:10 Eman: Okay, so we both know the rule of one, which is the idea that you should write to one reader in an email. You should have focused on one message. You should only have one call to action or one type of call to action. For example, instead of having an email that asks people to follow me on Instagram and then book a call over here and then head over to my website over here, it's a lot for readers and the likelihood is people will do nothing because you've overwhelmed them with so many things to do. If you can direct people to one call to action, that is always going to be likely more effective. However, I also think that we sometimes overest, sorry, underestimate our subscribers because, you know, we're all grown adults here and sometimes we can handle more than one call to action. So I have sometimes, but it has to be intentional. And I think that's the difference. Sometimes, I will intentionally say, "I'm going to give you a bunch of stuff to do now. So here it is." One, two, three. And that's intentional. I think the difference is when you tell people to do a whole bunch of stuff in your email and unintentionally, and just because you are... you're a bit all over the place, basically. That's my thought on that.

00:28:34 Jess: Sorry. I promise, Cindy, you can ask and I'm just like, "I'm hungry right now." Do you feel like that last call to action rule applies more so in sales emails versus nurture emails?

00:28:46 Eman: Yeah, I think so. Definitely. I think so. When you're in kind of a sales cycle and your sales emails are usually very direct and they need to be focused, and that's when I am really focusing on just one call to action. And I even tell my clients to remove the Instagram and YouTube, whatever else, photos in your email, get rid of it. We don't want people going to Instagram, we want them to go to your sales page. And so I'm really strict about that when it comes to sales emails. And then I think you're exactly right when it comes to nurturing those weekly emails, I'm a little bit more relaxed with it .

 00:29:23 Cindy: Okay, these are amazing tips and I'm so excited to play. Which brings me to my other question, which, again, I think a lot of people feel overwhelmed by, which is just finding the time to write and to be intentional about using that. And I'd love to hear about your... like how do you work if you're sitting down to write a welcome sequence or I think you said earlier you were doing a month's newsletter and I wasn't sure if that was like a monthly or you were batching a month's worth of weekly emails? So how do you manage and how do you get into the flow? How do we actually work this for our business?

00:30:11 Eman: You know, I've done it both ways. So there was a time when I felt really super organized. I feel like I'm still... My youngest son is one, so I still feel like I'm in that stage. I'm still figuring out how to be a mum of two kids and business owners. So I've changed in how I work quite a bit just because of the stage of life that I'm in. But three, second child, I used to batch everything and so I would have a content day on Fridays where I would focus on doing some kind of content at least once a month. I was sitting down on a Friday and writing out all my emails for the coming months. And it was so great to do because it just allowed me to feel super organized and have it done. But I think the downside of that, which I don't think we hear a lot about, is that everything was planned in advance. So there was no flexibility around the kind of content I was putting out because something happened that I wanted to share or talk about. It was like, "Well, okay, I've got to wait four weeks or three weeks or two weeks till I write the next batch," unless I'm going to go in and edit the emails I've already written, which defeats the whole point of batch and you don't want to go back in there and change stuff.

00:31:28 Eman: So now, I'm actually much more casual about how I do it. I'll put it in my calendar that okay, I know that I want a weekly email to go out. And so there's this is the day that I'm going to do it and this is what I'm going to write about . And actually, I've enjoyed doing it that way a lot more. And so, I think it really depends on how you work best. But I've done the batching and I do batch for clients because that's how it works best in terms of this kind of me writing their emails for them, their weekly newsletters. For example, today I just sent over four emails that they will now schedule in advance. But for me, in my business, I like things to be a bit more fluid, maybe because things are so structured for clients.

00:32:11 Jess: That makes a lot of sense. I'd love to switch gears just a bit because one of the things that I know this audience is always challenged by is lead generation. It's something that even in my business, I always say to people, I might have a master's degree from a really reputable institution but the two hardest things I've ever done are teach my kids how to poop on the potty and grow an email list. And it's a lot easier said than done. And the way I found you was through your excellent job of getting visible and putting your freebies, which is really good out there. And so I'm just curious if you could talk to our listeners about the... we've talked about the email part, right ? Like once they're on your list, but how do you get people on your list? I'm just curious what's worked really well for you in your business because that's how you got me.

00:33:14 Eman: Well, firstly, thank you for saying that. And secondly, something that you said I think I need to kind of touch on is that you said that my freebie is really good . So thank you for that, firstly. And I think one thing that's important to know about the email rules, which is I think the freebie that you're talking about is that I created that and then I actually charged people for it like it was a paid product . And then I thought, "You know what? I am actually going to refund all the people who bought this and I'm going to set it off as a freebie," because I want my freebies to be so good that people will pay for it. So I'd already validated that it was that good and I was like, "Okay, now I want to put it out into the world because I think this is really good and I think a lot of people will be able to benefit from it." And so that's the first thing is have a great freebie. And I think sometimes people think , "Well, it's free, so it really doesn't need to be that good." People should just be thankful that I'm giving them something free. But the truth is there is so much free stuff in the world now. There are so many freebies that even the free stuff, you have to make it good because there's so much competition. In order for your free thing to be noticed. So that's the first thing. And in order to, I think, create a really good freebie, you really have to know your audience and know what their struggles are. So if you've never asked your audience what they're struggling with and what you might be able to help them with. Go ask them whether it's through a survey or speaking to them, interviewing them, or even just putting up a poll or a question on social media and getting answers that way super valuable.

00:34:51 Eman: And then more generally, I think I'm really strategic in what I spend my time doing. So it's been really clear to me that getting on podcasts, doing workshops and webinars and all that stuff, speaking, has been a really great way to get clients. And interestingly, I hear people say like, "Oh, getting on podcasts is more for brand awareness. You don't really get clients through that." I get a lot of inquiries and clients through people hearing me on podcasts. And so, I think, just forget about what everyone else is experiencing for a second. You really have to figure out what is working for you. And then in order to figure that out though, you also of course have to track it. So when inquiries come through, I'm asking why did you hear from me? And they'll tell me. And if I get on a call with them and if they just said podcast, I'll ask which podcast? So that's the first thing. And I think the other thing in terms of visibility is that I'm not afraid to sell. I talk a lot about how people can pay me. So I am on LinkedIn, I'm on Instagram. I have my newsletter. I have my own Podcast. In my podcast I talk about how people can hire me because what's the point in me being visible if people don't know how to pay me and work with me. And so I think that's a really big thing as well.

00:36:16 Jess: I love that and I think that that's the perfect place to wrap up this conversation because I love that you are like if I'm going to do all this work, I might as well take up space and be clear with how people can... Yeah, it's very clear. This is a business, this is not a hobby and you can and deserve to be paid. That's amazing. So for the people who want to hire you, work with you, learn with you, invite you to speak on their stages, Eman, what's the best way for people to be in touch?

00:36:48 Eman: You can find me @emancopyco on Instagram or emancopyco.com. That's my website. And you can also go listen to my podcast 'Mistakes that Made Me' and you can find it wherever you listen to podcasts, that's where I interview extraordinary business owners and ask them to share their biggest business mistake and then we dive into that.

00:37:11 Jess: I love it. Very, very. Talk about a hook. That's awesome. Thank you so much. We appreciate you being here. And, yes, everyone, go listen, go follow. It's been our pleasure. Thank you.

 00:37:23 Eman: Thank you for having me.

 00:37:25 Cindy: Thanks.

00:37:28 Cindy: Thank you again for listening to the Confessions Podcast for nonprofit coaches and consultants. If you enjoyed today's episode, which I sure hope you did, you can show your support in one of three ways.

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00:38:07 Jess: And to our fellow non-profit coaching and consulting friends, remember we're an open book and here to answer your burning biz questions.

00:38:13 Cindy: See you next time.