"When I shifted my approach to sales to be of service, it allowed me to have more open, transparent, and honest conversations - it doesn't feel like a zero-sum game where you're fighting for the most your client can give you, and they're fighting for getting the least, the lowest price for the most amount of work. It feels like you're on the same team." - Erin Lindstrom 

Sales. It’s consistently one of the things consultants and coaches will say they dislike about running a business. The whole sales process can feel uncomfortable. Until now! Join the conversation with Erin Lindstrom, a sales strategist and dynamic coach who has been in the online business world for 10 years. Erin walks us through sales in a “non-icky” way with practical tips to help you find the win-win in your sales process.

Highlights:

1. Exploring how to approach sales as a service.

2. Being authentic in your sales conversations.

3. Examining the holistic approach to sales strategy and mindset.

Connect with Erin:

Website: https://www.erinlindstrom.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/erinlindstrom/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/erin-lindstrom-80176020

Find Us Online:  https://www.confessionswithjessandcindy.com/

Connect with Cindy:

Cindy Wagman Coaching https://cindywagman.com/

The Good Partnership https://www.thegoodpartnership.com/

Connect with Jess: 

Out In the Boons: https://www.outintheboons.me/

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Cindy: Welcome to the Confessions podcast. I'm Cindy Wagman

[00:00:03] Jess: And I'm Jess Campbell. We're two former in-house non-profit pros turned coaches and consultants to purpose-driven organizations.

[00:00:11] Cindy: After years of building up our separate six-figure businesses from scratch, we've thrown a lot of spaghetti at the wall and have lived to see what sticks.

[00:00:20] Jess: We're on a mission to help other nonprofit coaches and consultants looking to start or scale their own businesses past the six-figure mark by pulling back the curtain.

[00:00:30] Cindy: Whether you're still working inside a non-profit and thinking of one day going out on your own, or you've been running your consulting business for years, you understand that working with nonprofits is different. We're giving you access to the business leaders who serve nonprofits as their clients. You know, the people who truly get it.

[00:00:52] Jess: No more gatekeeping, no more secrets. This podcast is going to give you an inside look at what running a successful nonprofit coaching and consulting business looks like. Basically, we're asking people how much money they make, how they get paid and what has and hasn't worked in their businesses.

[00:01:12] Cindy: Listen in as these leaders share their insights, their numbers, and the good, the bad, and the ugly. When it comes to building a nonprofit coaching or consulting business, we're gonna empower you to make the power moves that give you the income and freedom you set out to create from day one.

[00:01:28] Jess: You ready? Let's go.

[00:01:31] Cindy: Hey, Jess.

[00:01:32] Jess: Hi, Cindy. We're back.

[00:01:34] Cindy: We're back. And today's conversation is such a good one, a needed one, but, yeah, this one, we're talking about sales and mindset and if you need anything in your business, you need to know how to make money.

[00:01:53] Jess: Yeah, it's a requirement and something that as we talk about in the conversation, doesn't necessarily come super natural to anyone who identifies as female, anyone who's been brought up in the nonprofit sector. These are things that we really have to overcome. And I know personally, in my business, it definitely has felt harder to sell myself compared to raising the millions of dollars I've raised as a fundraiser. So this is everyone.

[00:02:21] Cindy: This is foundational. And you are not alone. Everyone I talked to feels that way. And it's scary and uncomfortable, but it doesn't have to be, right? And what I love about this conversation is Erin approaches sales as service, which you've heard me say before as well. She said that to make it happen. But when you shift that, it allows you to have more open, transparent, honest conversations. It doesn't feel like a zero sum game where you're fighting for the most your client can give you, and they're fighting for getting the least, the lowest price for the most amount of work. It feels like you're on the same team. And I think that that's really helpful as you approach getting that money.

[00:03:14] Jess: Totally. And what I love about this conversation with Erin is it's a little bit of tactical practical with some things that you can implement right away, as well as some conversations you probably need to have with yourself and your mindset and how the stories you tell. And so for anyone that struggles with or is really trying to shift how they approach sales, especially in 2023, I think that you will very much enjoy this conversation with Erin Lindstrom.

[00:03:45] Jess: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Confessions with Jess and Cindy. It is my absolute honor and pleasure to introduce you to our guest today. Someone that I have been a fan of both personally and professionally. We have Erin Lindstrom, who is just such a funny thing like the Internet. We became kind of Instagram friends, and then I love people who take the initiative to turn that into real life friends. When Erin invited me into something in-person, and it was really important for me to have someone like Erin on our show, because one thing that I think she does different than a lot of other coaches out in the world is sell. And for all of you consultants listening, I will speak on behalf of myself as well. The selling part of running our business can be challenging and uncomfortable and foreign, and Erin's take on how to do that with ease and with intention is something I just hadn't heard before. And so I wanted to bring that conversation to the podcast today. So welcome, Erin to Confessions. I hope you're ready to get confessional.

[00:05:06] Erin: I'm ready to be in the confessional. Thank you so much for having me.

[00:05:06] Jess: So, for folks who don't know you, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your business and how you get paid?

[00:05:19] Erin: Sure. So, I'm Erin Lindstrom. I've been in the online business world for about ten years now, which is like 100 years in Internet time. And my business has seen all sorts of iterations and evolutions and all of that jazz. I call myself a sales strategist to keep things easy and flowing. To be honest with you, I do a few different things, and I cross industries and I break all of the rules. But at the end of the day, everything comes down to growth, whether that's personally, professionally, or like revenue when it comes to your numbers for your business. So sales strategy to me, encompasses leadership as a piece of the puzzle. Communication is a piece of the puzzle, copywriting, and then sales strategy funnels, and all, the whole puzzle, I need to look at it and talk with you about it. And I think that our personal energy also affects all of that.

[00:06:10] Erin: So I do something that's called what I call dynamic coaching. That's a blend of coaching and consulting. A lot of times when I'm giving advice or when I'm asking questions, I'm trying to zoom out and get different lenses on things from strategy to mindset to healing. Because as we're running our own businesses, I find that you need something from each one of those areas. And so that's what I do over here. That's how I get paid.

[00:06:35] Cindy: That is so clear, which I love. And also I find so much value in how you frame that as it's holistic. And I feel like we should start the conversation with that, because sales is one of those things. It's like fundraising where people just think icky grows. And I think sales, when we're selling to nonprofits, that feeling is even more intensified. So tell us a little bit about how you approach that, even that first hurdle of like, "Yes, I'm willing to do this work."

[00:07:18] Erin: Yeah, absolutely. So I feel like, for me, I've really connected like being of service and sales. And the way that I am put together, whatever my operating system, business is, it feels like art to me. It's creative. I see it. This is fun. This is where I want to be. And when I give myself the question of, "If you could do, you have all the money in the world coming in for the highest good of all, ethically, how would you spend your time?" It's like this is how I would end up spending my time. So I've found my center of like, "I can't quit this because it comes up against who I am without being unhealthy and all I do is work."

[00:08:01] Erin: But however, really, my strengths lie here. And I think my purpose is very much inside of my work. So with that understanding, I typically work for and with other people who feel the same way. They're doing something that they love. They are doing what's most important to them in the world. And in the nonprofit space specifically, at least, I'll speak for the ones that I've come in contact with. Most founders are like this is their thing, this is what they care about. They are coming from that same purposeful energy.

[00:08:31] Erin: And when I offer my services in that way to help, it is to be of service to their purpose. So to me, it's like a different kind of energy exchange than just like, "Hi, can you give me 1000? Can I have that?" It's not like that at all. It's very much like, "How can I support you? And then what do I need to make that work on this earth, in this world?" And my path to even getting to support nonprofits is a little bit funky and it's not the way I planned it. Where I graduated from college with a degree in international affairs and elementary education, thinking like children, that's how we'll change the world. This is how we get in. Schools are important.

[00:09:11] Erin: And then I started a master's in nonprofit management, and I ended up quitting a semester in. I loved the business stuff. I loved learning about leadership in that context. And I was… two things were happening. Number one, just kind of life stuff catching up with me. And I was depressed and needed to focus on myself for a minute. And on the other side of that, I was doing the math. And as we were talking about business development, I was getting to know my peers who most of them were already in the nonprofit world. They were sharing how much they were making and what they wanted to do. And when I started hearing those numbers. I was doing the math and thinking like, "Oh my God, I'm going to be in so much debt forever and I don't actually know if this is going to work for me in this way."

[00:09:52] Erin: And so I hopped out at that moment to reconsider everything. And then as I went down the business growing path, I always had in my head like I truly want to help. I would go down that path if that were possible, but it didn't feel possible to me. I ended up becoming pregnant and having two kids and it literally wasn't sustainable to start at a starting salary.

[00:10:16] Erin: So instead I went on this other direction. And what kept coming up for me as I was visioning for my business like, "I'm copywriting! So cool! Whatever." Helping people do things. But I kept having the call in my heart of like, 'Okay, but also this." I do care about children in the world and like, "What am I going to be doing about this?" And so I was like, "I need to do something right now." Reached out to a local organization. They had a holiday program where I did a gifting thing. And that relationship with the founder, she came to my house because I kept... because I posted on social and said, "Hey, if anyone else wants to do this with me, send me the $75 and I'll go shopping for you." And I had like 19 people sponsor kids. So she was like, "Who are you?" And like, "Can I trust you and what is happening here?" And when we met, she was like, "Okay, can we have an ongoing relationship?" And I was like, "Yeah." And my relationship with that organization over the years shifted from volunteer and then into consulting for them.

[00:11:09] Erin: And so at first, we were talking about it openly and I had a great relationship with the founder where I could be like, "This is what I do. This is what it costs." And she was like, "I love that." And nope, can't do it. And it took years of really respecting each other's boundaries and like, "Here's what I can give. I'd love to do this part of the project for you. I can do this." And then getting to the point where it's like, "Oh, okay, we can have a quarterly retainer for 10k?" "Great! Sign here and then let's add these things." And so, it's really evolved as the organization has grown. And then I've been able to support other organizations similarly, because of the work that I did there.

[00:11:43] Cindy: That's awesome. And I think, as you know, our audience are consultants who serve nonprofits. So you help for profits, and you have clients who are nonprofits, which I think is a space that more and more consultants are looking at is how do we straddle both audiences? I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that experience. How do you manage that? Do you pricing differently? What does it look like?

[00:12:14] Erin: Yeah, great question. So this has developed organically for me as I was doing it. And in the beginning, I just wanted to serve and support. So I did some things for free, and then moved into the paid packages. And I almost didn't care what it looked like in terms of my business clients versus my nonprofit clients, because I only had one at the time. And so I could be very particular about what I was doing in relationship to everything else.

[00:12:44] Erin: As that grew and I found my bearing, and I started getting referrals because people would see what I was doing over there or I would meet them, they'd be on the board and it naturally took over. I would price in a way that I have like I feel like an inner algorithm almost, where I test things. So I will may not make up. But I will consider here's what I would charge outside of this realm. Do I really want to do this project. Is this aligned? How does it fit in with everything that's happening right now? Because sometimes there are variables and depending on what's on my plate, like things will change. But I'll make a decision like that. And ultimately, what I've found is that I do charge most nonprofits my regular prices.

[00:13:25] Erin: The reason why is because the first time that it was outside of this organization that it was happening, I was talking to a friend and colleague. And I was freaking out like I don't know what to charge, because I don't know if they have money and making up all the stories for them. And it was something where I wanted to do it, but it wasn't like I have to do this. This is like this is it for me. And she was like, "Yeah, this is a $20,000 product." And I was like, "What are we?" I cannot. There's no way.

[00:13:15] Erin: And then I went through and looked at it all again, and I was like, "Okay, but it is," because it's going to take that much time and energy and I can't put anything else on my schedule if I don't. So I ended up pitching. I think 18,000 is where I landed. And they were like, "Yeah, no problem."

[00:14:07] Cindy: Okay, can we rewind for like 10 seconds, because you, who is Master of Sales, even question the value and how do I charge these organizations? And I feel like for someone who's already done the work, there's still mindset stuff that comes up. You have the numbers and you had their budget, and it felt even with all that, you still put your own breaks on. How do we figure out how to charge what we're worth or how to position ourselves in a way that we're finding those clients that can invest because some can and some can't?

[00:14:55] Erin: Yeah, great question. So when I started that process, the first thing that I did that I didn't share was when I spoke to my friend and went back and forth because P.S. I think having space held by someone who can keep their feet on the ground when you're in your emotions is super important. Whether it's a coach or just a friend who's also in business and growing and stretching, that is part one of this for me.

[00:15:19] Erin: And so what I did was before I even got to doing the work of the proposal, because I was like, "I'm not taking the time to do this unless I know this is going to be more like... this is going to work for me." So I sent the guy who was in charge of coordinating with me and getting the invoice a ballpark, and I was just like, "Hey, before you go ahead and do this full proposal, I just want to make sure we're on the same page. This is probably in the 15 to 20K range." And I thought when I sent that, that he would be like, "Oh, no, sorry." And that would be off my plate. And I saved myself the word proposal. And instead he was like, "Yeah, that's what we were thinking." And I was like, "Okay."

[00:15:53] Erin: So I like to build in these check ins along the way for me or them. And so for me, that ballpark moment was important. And I think sometimes in sales, it gets very like, "I don't want to see the number because what if I'm lowballing and what if they have a bigger budget? And also, what if they don't have a budget?" Just ask is the biggest thing.

[00:16:12] Erin: I think, being able to talk about numbers. And that's why my relationship with the founder I was talking about first is so incredible and amazing and has been able to grow is because we've always been clear with what we can do. She's very much... I'm like, "This is what I need." She's like, "Got it. Here's what's in the budget. Can we make it work? Can we not? Okay, what do we want to do instead?" It's okay to kind of be in the figure it out stage with someone. And I think knowing where your boundaries are going into any conversation helped make that much easier. If I know that I can't do this less for $5,000, then that gives me a starting point of, "Okay, let me ask up here, see what happens." And then I know it's just a no when we get to that point and that's okay.

[00:16:56] Jess: Cold information, I want to step back a little bit and dive into the weeds on this evaluation, I don't know the vetting process. How do you make sure that before you get to the point of even maybe a conversation you know, excuse me of a frog in my throat... that this person has a budget at all or that it's even worth your time? I think that that's a mistake that a lot of nonprofit consultants make is they want to be the nice guy, the nice girl, and they're willing to hop on a phone call with anyone, and that phone call turns into a consultation. The next thing you know, 90 minutes goes by. And then you come to the point of the conversation, and they're like, "Actually, we were hoping you do this for free, or we would do this on commission," which is actually unethical. And you're like, 'Wow, I just wasted a ton of time."

[00:17:48] Jess: So what are you doing in your business to vet people to make sure that before you're actually coming to this conversation around a budget, that they are your right fit? Some people are willing to work with these super tiny startup nonprofits that don't have a big budget, and then others are absolutely not. So I'm curious what your process is.

[00:18:11] Erin: So I feel like I'm in a situation where I've pretty much only done paid work with the exception of the beginning like I just have a rate like that... group. [crosstalk]

[00:18:24] Jess: But yeah, when she's done the business to get paid.

[00:18:26] Erin: But therefore, too, right? When people refer me, they come with the expectation of paying me. And there's something to be said of like, "Yeah, don't always break the rule, because then it's not the rule." You know what I mean? It very quickly becomes what you do. And I think that sales calls and consults are something to look at.

[00:18:45] Erin: Depending on what kind of season of business you're in, you typically have like you need time or you need money, maybe you need both and then we have an operational situation. But in the moments where you need money and you have too much time, I think connecting is a really good way of getting your foot in the door and making connections, building your network, all of that jazz. In seasons where you're like, "I have so much work. I need to make that fence hired against me." Cool, build the fence. And know that you can change that back and forth as you go.

[00:19:13] Erin: So in that season where you do have space and connections are important, and if you have a history of getting clients of having good relationships in that way, I would say open that up if you've never closed a sale, then we have some things to discuss before we go back. Number one, asking people but you have to be brave enough to ask and call out that it's awkward if it is and be like, "I am so excited to be here with you today. After looking over your website, I think the cause that you're for is amazing. Here's how it links to me. Before we get into everything and I do want to hear everything, and the answer to this question doesn't even matter, but I just want to make sure, are you here in a kind of volunteer aspect where you just want some free feedback or are you thinking more of a client commitment." And I can start it like that.

[00:19:59] Erin: "Also, your website is a very important structure in building the pre-structure for getting on that call where you can lay out my packages start from here, or this is what I offer. Really, by the time they get to the call, the question that I just gave you shouldn't really exist. In my opinion, we should know what's happening at that point. And if you don't, then feel free to send an email. And if you don't have an application that gives you some information but you're allowed to ask pre questions, it's never bad for you to be gathering information before a call. It just makes you look like you're prepared and taking the time to get ready to go." And so I think asking too, "Whether it's an application or in an email, do you have a budget in mind for what you're looking to do?"

[00:20:44] Jess: Love that. Those are such great examples. And for anyone listening, that's like, "Oh, gosh, I'm really behind the eight ball." This is actually one of my to-do's over the next month. I don't even have a proper form that vets people on my website, and it's resulted in a ton of people reaching out that I know aren't a great fit from the get-go. And so, luckily, I have my Rolodex, so I have a ready pool of people I can refer out to. But even I can do a much better job of vetting people before they come to me. So if you haven't done that yet, you're all good. There's plenty of time.

[00:21:24] Jess: Hey, Erin. We're back with another round of rapid-fire questions. Are you ready today?

[00:21:30] Erin: I'm excited? I don't know if I'm ready. Let's do it.

[00:21:33] Jess: Okay, cool. What is the first thing you drink in the morning?

[00:21:33] Erin: Water. Yeah, I usually wash down an Adderall.

[00:21:45] Jess: I know that you sideline as a comedian, who is your favorite comedic inspiration?

[00:21:45] Erin: That's a great question. I don't know. I'm going to go with Amy Poehler because I was just watching Parks and Rec and because she has the nonprofit side.

[00:22:03] Jess: What do you mean?

[00:21:04] Erin: Smart girls, I believe it's called.

[00:22:05] Jess: Uh- oh, I don't even know. I've got to go look at that up side fact.

[00:21:04] Erin: I think Improv is an incredible tool for fundraising and business owners, and Amy Poehler, obviously, is in the school of Improv, and I can remember all the details of that, it is such an important whole... yes, and all of it. Such a total skill set.

[00:22:30] Jess: And none of this is rapid-fire, but I actually think that being funny or comedic abilities is a huge sign of intelligence. Every single really funny person I know is very brilliant. Okay, I know you live in Virginia. If someone is coming to town, where are you taking them to lunch? Brunch? Coffee? Where's your go-to spot?

[00:22:53] Erin: I love this. Okay, we're going to probably grab a coffee or a lavender mocha at Cafe Stella, and then we're going to go for a beautiful lock downtown. And I'm skipping to dinner, but we're going to go to Codex for dinner. It's going to be so good. And maybe for lunch we'll get shawarma. Yeah, it's going to be a great day. We're going to eat a lot. We're going to see some water, see a big boat. You know?

[00:23:17] Jess: I love it. And my last question, because I know you embrace the 'woo.' So what is your sign, your enneagram, your energy? What do you subscribe to tell us?

[00:23:33] Erin: I am an Aquarius Capricorn. Rising. Capricorn. Whatever. The other important one is ascending it. No, that's the rising moon. I'm moon. Okay, moving on. Aquarius, Capricorn. Capricorn. I'm an enneagram three. I am in human design. I'm a generator 1/3 with the some angle cross of contagion, which is that good cult leader energy. But that's what we use, ethically important. I think those are all the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

[00:24:07] Jess: Amazing. All right, you're the best. Thanks for playing.

[00:24:10] Erin: My pleasure.

[00:24:14] Jess: I feel like I'm working all the way backwards in this conversation, but I think people confuse getting leads with sales. They think that getting leads is selling. And so then I see a lot of trepidation around even putting yourself out there, getting visible, letting people know what it is you actually do so they can know how they would possibly work with you. And I'm just curious if that's ever come up in your consulting with how, like for me, that screams mindset, but you're the expert. How do you coach people through showing up and then crossing over into the sale? Because I think people in this industry struggle with both.

[00:25:04] Erin: Yeah, it's interesting. I was just having a conversation with a nurse the other day who's like stepping into coaching. And I think the helper space and historically, women stepping into the more powerful. And if I may for a second, I have a soapbox around nonprofit stuff that makes me want to rip the hair out of my head because nonprofits were created during wars. The woman had something to do and there was money coming in, so they didn't need to get paid. So we have this female dominated industry where money is like, we can ask for money, which P.S. I need two separate things. I need a high donor strategy to be like we've got this, and then I need to go not beg people. But sometimes I think that's what people don't want it to feel like, right? And like the grassroots method. So there's a lot of money stuff. And power stuff, I think, to talk about in the nonprofit world. That all gets kind of up in here.

[00:26:00] Erin: And so, when we think about the sales stuff, number one, I think it's an interesting exercise for everyone to connect the dots between your service and money. Even if that's not what you're leading with, that's not how you're selling it, but to have the backbone understanding of, "Well, we do this, I do social media, lead generation," right? But ultimately, then you need to convert into donations or whatever the action is there. I think everyone in business, you are a salesperson in some way, shape or form. So whatever comes up around sales, number one, I think, noticing what is there for you, just thinking about that and what comes up for you around asking for money, what comes up for you around wages and what's right. There's so many pockets that money fits into. And the first thing is just getting really curious about what's even there for me.

[00:26:52] Erin: And then, getting clear on what are your actual values and beliefs around this, I think being clear that you believe that people should be paid for their work, that applies for you too. And it makes it a little bit less awkward when you're asking. I have a lot of different things. One of the things that I'm working on is a comedy organization and a theater company. And I believe performers should be paid. It is super awkward to have a high ticket show almost when I pitch local restaurants because they're like, "That's a lot of money." I'm like, "Yeah, it's this much work plus this much marketing. So it breaks down to about $15 per person." And I know that your values are this. So how do I connect the values to everything? And my business is a part of that getting people paid.

[00:27:37] Erin: And I think when you're ‘solopreneuring’ in the early days of no team to then growing a team, potentially. For some people, it feels easier to ask for the sale because I'm providing for my team, where it's almost uncomfortable when people know that it's going to you, and that's okay, this is still business. So the value of your service, I think, on Earth you can get really clear on that dollar to dollar like what are you going to see? How much am I saving you in time? How much more money will you be bringing in based on this work is one piece of it. And then on the other side of that, there's a value piece of like you actually can't charge your worth because your worth is infinite regardless of your work.

[00:28:20] Erin: So there's room to lean into these things and try them out and pull strengths from where you can pull strengths. And then I think it's kind of a Venn diagram situation where we got to find the middle of like, "Okay, based on what I believe, this is what I would tell someone else to do. How does that feel for me? Do I have the confidence to go and do that?" And if the answer is no, there's one or two things that you likely need. One is more information. So getting more strategic around like how does your service actually pay off? Sometimes doing the thought work of really pulling that out for yourself, not even the client will change things. And then the other side is beliefs. And is it belief in you and your ability to do it? And typically when you check that, we're like, "Oh, no, I can't do it. Maybe it's not that," right?

[00:29:03] Erin: And then it's like the ability of having a functional relationship, which sounds silly. However, if I'm partnering with a nonprofit, their results become our results to a certain extent, right? If they're not mine, technically, however, I care how they do now, and I'm acting as if I'm responsible for this. I'm going to do my best in our lives. You've probably had a situation where you couldn't trust the other person to do their best. You've ever had a group project in school? All of that leaves residual trauma shit. That's now hanging out, and this is where the healing part comes in, is sometimes you have to actually think about that. Sometimes working with the client, especially in consulting, your boss to boss? Instead of a boss to employees. And like "What does that look like? Who are you as a boss? Do you feel confident having a conversation from that angle?" There's just power shifts that are internal that then show up externally. You got to look at it all. We need to do another zoom out.

[00:30:07] Cindy: Just so many things you said there. I took notes because they're showing up. I know for a lot of people, I just had this conversation with someone in my network who I had to remind them that they're the expert, that they were hired a non-employee in this company, that they are a consultant and an expert and you're not talking to your boss, you're talking to your client. And another client of mine, another coaching client, has had so many bad experiences with bosses that she's self sabotaging becoming a boss and building her team because she doesn't want to be like those people.

[00:30:46] Cindy: And then, I mean, going back a little bit. Just a lot of what you're saying to me speaks of openness and transparency like asking for a budget, putting information on forms, asking for information. And I think that you mentioned sort of like, "Well, I think a lot of people feel I'm asking for me. I'm the business." And it feels really uncomfortable. But when you start to build in that transparency and approach from a service perspective where I'm not here to extract all the money from nonprofits, I'm here as a partner, as someone who wants to help them do good. It definitely shifts that mindset piece. I really want to talk about copy as well, because I definitely think that all of the... but I want to talk about everything.

[00:31:37] Erin: We can talk about it all. I'll come back to more confessions.

[00:31:40] Cindy: Yes. I feel like we could literally do a whole series on all the areas that you cover. Okay, let's talk about copy and funnels a little bit, because I think that people also get really stuck in the weeds and the shoulds of the weeds. So I need to have this, I need to have that. And so I'd love for you to talk... let's set the stage a little bit about where do we use copy, where do we use funnels? What is important? What maybe is nice to have or depends on your strategy set the overall stage for us.

[00:32:15] Erin: Okay, great. I will set the stage, and then you're going to have to draw me back with kept questions, because one thing from the last thing you were saying that's going to connect right into the copy is like ROI is what was in big gold letters in my head as you were kind of just speaking through everything there. Being able to connect to your ROI is huge, and your copy is a huge piece of this.

[00:32:35] Erin: Your copy, to me, number one, copy is the words that are in your marketing. It is what's on a billboard. It is what's in your email campaign. It is your Instagram bio. It is your caption. Any words that you're seeing, that is copy. I did not know that. I came into this world. I learned that in school. Thanks for eFolio, which that's not a go by any means. That is just where I was ten years ago. Okay.

[00:33:00] Jess: Love it. Love it. Love it.

[00:33:04] Erin: My whole nonprofit journey, I didn't know you could make money writing. No idea. Communication is so important, right? So as a consultant, even if you are a one person show, or if you are a multi person show, whatever it is, your brand is really your vibe. It is your energy. And when you're one person, if you think about it like a networking event, it's like who you are when you walk in the room. Are you the person and no shade to any of the style things I'm about to throw out, but are you the person who is walking in with an elaborate hat and people are like, "Oh my God!" And she's like confidently talking to everyone. Are you the person who's walking in a smart suit situation? What is your vibe?

And I like to think of that in and outside of not just outfit, but it is your ability to communicate and to manage energy back and forth between people. Are you someone where everyone's like, "Oh my God, that was so fun!" We're like, "Oh my God, my mind has been blown." Or what kind of effect or imprint do you want to have, I think is important. And then where do you think you are? And we can grow all of that stuff.

[00:33:10] Erin: To me, your copy is a form of that because sometimes I will read a caption and your outfit no longer matters at this point, the photo, I don't care. The real? I don't care. When I read that caption, there's a tone that's really important and there's like the way that you ask for things and share things. The tone and all this comes together in one big meatball, if you will. So there's like a lot of things smashed in there. But I care about the tone and the energy of how you are transferring information. That is the intention behind it, right?

[00:34:49] Erin: And you can hear things differently if you read a website, start looking at them, start reading captions differently as a business owner and see like, "Does this person sound confident? Do I believe what they're saying? Did I learn something?" And the call to action, were they scared to give the call to action? Was it clear? Do I know what to do? Because those things that end up in your copy that are passive or people think of them as passive. They're actually quite active when engaged with, or at least that's what they're designed to be. And that is the same energy of a conversation. So you want your copy, in my mind anyway, to be conversational and to bring that vibe so that people want to engage and talk to you. So that's like the litmus test that I am doing on everything.

[00:35:31] Erin: And so, when it comes to what you actually need, in a way you need nothing. If you can have a conversation and be in connection, great, you've done it. If I can pass you a card and have a meeting in person, I need an invoice processor, great. You can get away with absolutely nothing. However, you're going to need to know what to say to them in terms of what you do, what you provide, who you are, where they can learn more. And a lot of times, A, it's helpful to just write that down to get really clear on what it is. To have a script and then throw it away. To know that you are intentional around like what's coming out of your mouth and so that people can go have another touch point with you that doesn't require you speaking to them.

[00:36:13] Erin: But that said, I think it's important to check in with what's easiest for you, which feels most natural. Some of my clients are like, "I can write all day." Other people are like, "I don't want to write, but I'll do a video." And I'm like, "Okay, great, let's start at the access point of what's most fun to you and then we can translate that into the words."

[00:36:30] Jess: I love that. And I think I actually learned this from you to think of your copy as like an attraction method or an attraction tool because that will help bring your ideal clients to you. I want to carry further these questions and go into funnels a little bit. I think that is like a foreign word to probably a lot of people in the consulting space even though we've done funnels in a nonprofit world, we just have named them different things.

[00:36:57] Jess: And so, I'm just curious how you... for someone who's maybe just getting started with funnels and this could be something free or to just onboard people, where do you advise people to start? And if there was like one funnel, you should probably have that one in your business, which one would be.

[00:37:18] Erin: Would you count a website as a funnel?

[00:37:21] Jess: I would.

[00:37:22] Erin: Okay, I'm going to argue for that as my one thing. If I could only have one thing, I would go with a one page website. Because anything I do on social, anything I do in network, I need somewhere to send people, so I'm going to probably send them there. I could do this with just an Instagram too, now that I'm thinking through. And then I would want to have my two software, an email situation where I can professionally email people and a calendar link for me.

[00:37:49] Erin: And I think that's like an added value of a ‘book a call with me versus let's go back and forth with calendars.’ Your sales process is the energy of working with you. So if efficiency is important to you in working with someone, make your sales process feel like that too.

[00:38:02] Erin: But that's really it is have a one page thing that says, "This is who I am, this is how I help. Here are some results that I've had in the past. Here's your next step to work with me." Then if you want to add value, create a thing, we can add all of that, but ultimately, go learn about me and then take action.

[00:38:19] Cindy: Love it. It's so simple. And I... especially and this goes back almost to what we talked about right at the very beginning, we were talking about forms and stuff like that. You can build all of that into just those three things that you said, right? You can create a form in Calendly where you ask those questions and funnel people and then email. Do we want to talk a little bit about email marketing, generally speaking? Because we're talking about email capture a little bit and that's actually something I just came up with some of the people I coach like, "Do I need to do a blog? Do I need to do a weekly thing?" I feel like there's increasing debate. I feel like it used to be like you have to show up every week for your audience. Where do you stand on that?

[00:39:09] Erin: I stand in the corner of breaking all the rules, once again. Here's an ideal scenario. You have shit ton of money in your bank account and you have so much time and freedom that you can just provide value all day long and create a content system and do everything, and take care of your clients and everything works really well. For most of us, that's not totally doable. So I think you have to filter that to where you are, what's available, what your strengths are. So for me over the years, I have a couple of funnels that are set it up and they've just been on like haven't done a ton to do more. I focus more on showing up and serving live and I typically convert from what I'm doing in that way. So you kind of learn over time what's best for you.

[00:39:56] Erin: That said, I think having at least one structural thing that is in place to gather emails and then to nurture that list absolutely makes sense. As far as the nurturing goes, I think this is really specific to who you are and exactly how you're helping. Because for example, like one of my clients who runs a nonprofit, she's very anti emails like sending to her people, and so that's the thing I'm overcoming with her in terms of stretching. That said, if I were sending her emails all the time, she would have gotten rid of me so long ago or never reached out, I think, because that wasn't the strategy to connect with her. So it really depends on the person you're trying to connect with. If it's someone on the team, what are their functions, what are they doing? Are they going to creep into a funnel? Great. Are they someone who would rather watch a video? Are they someone who needs an ebook? How can I create the material that that person needs? And then the follow up, I think it's important to be intentional with that as well.

[00:40:57] Erin: So, if you have something valuable to share, absolutely, that is generous to share in that way. If you are only reaching out because you need a sale and it's like thirsty energy, like "No thanks, skip that email." You know what I mean? Do something else instead. Serve in a more one to many way and then bring it back. Because I do think emails are personal and so I do think it matters what goes in there without needing to have a full newsletter with 80 different topics. To me, it’s more from the heart and purposeful. So if you can broadcast from the heart, great, do it. And if you can do that consistently, great, do it. Great idea.

[00:41:33] Jess: I love that. So simple. Again, this has been so helpful, Erin. Thank you.

[00:41:40] Erin: So glad.

[00:41:40] Jess: So for folks who are listening and they're like, "I need some more Erin in my life," what is the best way to get in touch with you and follow you and be in your world?

[00:41:57] Erin: Be in my world? Oh, that was not good singing. My world lives mostly Instagram is where I show up live. So @erinlindstrom. My website is erinlindstrom.com. I have a LinkedIn somewhere, too, that's Erin Lindstrom. So wherever you are, say hi. Yeah, and happy to help you. If you have questions, I'm going to... I mean, I'll create content to answer those questions specifically, no problem.

[00:42:04] Jess: And we didn't even talk about this, but Erin also has developed with some partners, a tool that I think is genius called Let Collect. Do you want to share about that just a tad? Because I think for this audience, it would be really attractive.

[00:42:26] Erin: Yes. So Let's Collect is a software, particularly for people who are relationship focused. So none of us like salesy sleazy, win, deal. So relationship centered and are using your social media platforms to close sales in the DMs. So we are currently finishing up a development project. This is a whole other story time. But anyway, we're finishing up a development project. We're going to be going live launch early 2023. And so if you are someone who is talking to people, nurturing leads and then bringing people into the DMs to have conversations and move into either a sales call or just to share opt-ins and share value but want to be able to measure what's actually working, then that would be for you.

[00:43:19] Jess: It's awesome. It's beautiful. It's easy to use. Erin, thank you so much for joining us on Confessions. We really appreciate it and everyone else, we will speak to you soon.

[00:43:31] Erin: Thanks for having me and thanks for doing this work.

[00:43:36] Cindy: Thank you again for listening to the Confessions Podcast for nonprofit coaches and consultants. If you enjoyed today's episode, which I sure hope you did, you can show your support in one of three ways.

[00:43:36] Jess: Number one, post the screenshot of this episode to your Instagram stories or LinkedIn profile and tag Cindy enough so we can repost you.

[00:43:36] Cindy: Number two, share this podcast with a fellow nonprofit culture consultant.

[00:43:36] Jess: And number three, leave a positive review on Apple Podcasts so that we can continue to grow and reach new listeners.

[00:44:06] Cindy: And of course, make sure you subscribe so you can get the latest and greatest interviews as they drop every Thursday.

[00:44:06] Jess: And to our fellow non-profit coaching and consulting friends, remember we're an open book and here to answer your burning biz questions.

[00:44:06] Cindy: See you next time.