Working together for over 20 years with Jen Love and John Lepp
"This is a long game. Everything in life, every relationship we have is a long game. If you try to turn to your short game, you just cannot win. And unless you're capable of investing in the long game and yes, looking for quick wins, I just don't think you can have a very successful long business life. " - John Lepp
Jen Love and John Lepp are the founders and strategic leads of Agents of Good, a strategic and storytelling firm that supports nonprofits in telling better stories and connecting with donors. They are passionate about helping organizations of all shapes and sizes unlock their donors' giving and creativity. Perhaps most impressively, they have been working together for over 20 years!
Highlights:
1. The power of strategic thinking and partnership in business success
2. Building a business with a business partner and balancing personal relationships with business practicalities
3. Working with a partner with complementary skill sets and finding your zone of genius
4. Value-based pricing and value-aligned pricing
Connect with Jen Love and John Lepp :
Website :https://agentsofgood.org/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/johnlepp
https://twitter.com/agentsofgood
New Book by John Lepp: Creative Deviations
Find Us Online: https://www.confessionswithjessandcindy.com/
Connect with Cindy:
Cindy Wagman Coaching https://cindywagman.com/
The Good Partnership https://www.thegoodpartnership.com/
Connect with Jess:
Out In the Boons: https://www.outintheboons.me/
Transcript:
00:00:00 Cindy: Welcome to the Confessions Podcast. I'm Cindy Wagman.
00:00:03 Jess: And I'm Jess Campbell. We're two former in-house-nonprofit pros turned coaches and consultants to purpose-driven organizations.
00:00:11 Cindy: After years of building up our separate six-figure businesses from scratch, we've thrown a lot of spaghetti at the wall and have lived to see what sticks.
00:00:20 Jess: We're on a mission to help other nonprofit coaches and consultants looking to start or scale sell their own businesses past the six-figure mark by pulling back the curtain.
00:00:30 Cindy: Whether you're still working inside a nonprofit and thinking of one day going out on your own or you've been running your consulting business for years, you understand that working with nonprofits is just different. We're giving you access to the business leaders who serve nonprofits as their clients. You know, the people who truly get it.
00:00:52 Jess: No more gatekeeping. No more secrets. This podcast is going to give you an inside look at what running a successful nonprofit coaching and consulting business looks like. Basically, we're asking people how much money they make, how they get paid, and what has and hasn't worked in their businesses.
00:01:11 Cindy: We'll listen in as these leaders share their insights, their numbers, and the good, the bad, and the ugly when it comes to building a nonprofit coaching or consulting business. We're going to empower you to make the power moves that give you the income and freedom you set out to create from day one.
00:01:28 Jess: You ready? Let's go.
00:01:31 Cindy: All right. John and Jen, welcome to the podcast.
00:01:31 Jo: Thank you, Cindy. Thank you, Jessica. Nice to hear.
00:01:40 Jen: Good to be here.
00:01:41 Cindy: Happy New year. We're recording this in the New Year. I'm not quite sure when it will be published, but as of now, yeah, it's the beginning of 2023 and feels like there's so much room for potential and excitement so I can't wait. I love... I love both of you. I think you're fantastic and you know this is... what do they say when the sum of your parts is even greater than you individually. You two have a partnership that I think is drool worthy in the nonprofit sector. And that's all we're going to start talking a little bit about. But before we do, maybe we'll start with like who are you and what do you do? Go for it, Jen.
00:02:30 Jen: So John and I are the founders and strategic leads here at Agents of Good. So Agents of Good is a strategic and storytelling firm that supports organizations of many shapes and sizes to really help tell better stories and elevate conversations from the time a donor first connects to an organization to the time that they decide that they love this organization enough to remember them and their will. And we are proud stewards of those donors walking in their own journeys and in their own stories through the causes that have mattered most to them and it's really an honor and a privilege to be able to help people see themselves through the charities that they love.
00:03:27 Jen: And you know, since COVID, that's been a huge story for us, individual giving had a massive growth burst during COVID because people felt like so many things were out of control and they could control the organizations that they love and support. So John and I are just proud to walk with donors and organizations on that journey. I feel like I say something different every time, John. What else do we say about us?
00:03:56 John: That sounds great, Jen.
00:04:05 Cindy: That's awesome. Now, because we like to get into the details, what does that look like in terms of how organizations like? What do they hire you to do?
00:04:11 John: Well, I mean, I think like Jen said, I mean they... I think sometimes there's a little bit of a dance trying to figure out what can we do. I think we're known as creative storytellers. I think our work is known in many circles for being creative and visually interesting. Jen is, I know she's my business partner, but probably is one of the best copywriters in the country. And I think people know her to be, as you've just heard, a very eloquent and expressive speaker and thinker, maybe me a little bit as well. And so I think people know that we do direct response and we're direct mail nerds have been for a long time. So I think there's, you know, they come for some of that. Sometimes people like, "I've been watching you guys for a long time. I finally found a budget to do this special grad cheer part or our program needs to to get ramped up here and we really need to be more emotional and thoughtful and the things we ask for donors for and we know you guys can help us for that." So it's always everything Jen always, and I always say. Everything starts with a conversation. You know, everything is a conversation. Let's talk through what the problem is and figure out together what the solution could be and then just get to work.
00:05:20 Jess: So I have two questions back-to-back. This first one is not what I was originally going to ask you, but because we're on the topic of what services you provide, how is that delivered? Is it on a retaining kind of relationship basis? Is it project based? Is that you build hourly? I'm just curious like what your financial relationship with nonprofits is like, because I know it varies from literally every consultant we speak.
00:05:48 John: You know, I started as a designer and so I would charge by the hour and as we moved into more of a strategic partnership and really what we were selling was our ideas, our experience, our ability and really lean into the value of that. So definitely shifted away from this like John was a writer, same thing like shift away from billing by the hour because this isn't... Jen is out walking your dog. I met making dinner for the family. We're working, we're thinking we chat on the dock in the summertime. Jen, we're always kind of working on our clients' problems and stuff like that. How do you charge by the hour for that? So we're strong believers and charging by the value of what we provide and values is a funny thing because I may value me at a certain rate and someone else may not and that's totally fine, but I do believe in what we do and what we provide them and believe that we're... I will say probably one of the best consultancies out there in some ways because for certain clients, we definitely completely unlock their donors' giving and their creativity and everything. So you know, for certain clients, we're think of paid enough in some ways, you know.
00:07:01 Jen: So another way to say that, we've joked about this, that like if our clients all got together and talked about our rates and how we charge, they would probably be fistfights because we approach every client and every project with either are we gonna coach you through this? In which case, we will bill you by the day for our work and what's required for us to kind of shepherd this along versus do you want us to take this project and run with it, in which case we'll charge you this for that service. So we have a broad spectrum of the way in which we build. Some of it is, "Hey, can I just sit on the side of your desk for a couple of hours or for 1/2 a day?" or, "Hey, can you take this project and run with it and bring it back to me in better shape." So we're flexible in both of those ways, but the one thing that we won't compromise is what do you actually need? What do you have set aside to do that as an organization and does our value fit that need? And if it doesn't, then let's talk about that because maybe you need a different solution or maybe we need to reconsider how we've pitched this. But it does come back to what John said, which is someone comes to us saying, "Here's what's happening, how can you help me?" And our answer can be in a wide spectrum of options.
00:08:28 John: Jen and I, honestly, we started the business with the idea that we didn't actually have to make any money. That was a really... that was a big thing for us because we both have partners who are making money. So we're like we could operate for six months to a year, not make a single cent and be just okay, wouldn't be great, but we could be okay and I think we've still kind of held on to this idea of that, which is we sit down with new clients, we're not being interviewed. Do you mean like I'm there interviewing them? I want to listen to people speak eloquently, and expressive, and emotionally about their donors, their programs, the stuff they're capable of their dreams or hopes. Jen and I are both like this and we're judging the clients on that sort of thing versus their budget. We don't work on with clients based on how much money they have. We work with clients based on how much emotion and feelings they have for the work that they're doing. Because we're passionate and if you're not passionate, I'm not interested. This doesn't doesn't work for me.
00:09:28 Cindy: That's so beautiful and I know it really resonates with Jessica's.. y'all have heard talk about I think I could do this and then making money I would. But can we just spend another minute talking a little bit about what that looks like practically because I know we've collaborated on projects with clients and stuff like that and you know, you have your rates in your heads and sometimes they go up for organizations that have the capacity or where the workload supports it. And I know that sometimes, as you said John, you say yes to things not because it's paying the bills, but because it's an organization you really want to support. How do you find balance in that?
00:10:11 Jen: Well, I mean the big balance and so our goal from the start was to do work that we loved and also never to work with jackasses. So that becomes a very easy kind of second tier evaluation method is if we feel like we're being put into a certain kind of like do this and do this and do this and can you promise all of these things and can you promise this and can you promise that, that makes us kind of like, "Okay, I don't think we're entering this at the same from the same place." So that's a kind of a glib way to answer a very specific and thoughtful question, which is we're reading the energy of the people that we're talking to around like are you committed and passionate about this regardless of whether what the budget is or are you going through the motions of, "I know, I need to outsource this and I'm looking for the right partner," because those are very different inputs for us. Like if someone is saying, "Hey, I have this exact project and I think you're the right people for it," then we will entertain that conversation all day. When they're saying I have this thing that I need to be done by February 1st, when can you give it to me? That's a different brief and we have always had the self-awareness and also the privilege to say nope. No, no, thank you. So it's a combination of reading the kind of energy of the people and also really understanding what is the thing that's keeping you up at night?
00:10:51 Jen: Is it I'm not meeting my budget and I need to make a budget by February 1st? And we love taking on those projects when it meets all the rest of the right criteria in terms of I care about this matter. You have access to the people that need to make decisions. When you provide us with something, here's exactly how we're going to come back to you with feedback. All of those little components make the larger picture of can we provide you with a solution or are we just dancing around along a budget line until we figure out whether you're to say yes or no? John, what do you want to add to that?
00:12:31 John: The only thing I would add is we've kind of... through the years, suggested some of our larger clients in a sense you are subsidizing the work we're doing for our smaller clients because we don't give anything differently to the small clients than we give to our big clients. I think it's... unfortunately, here in Canada, if you work in direct response and direct mail, there's only a couple key really good direct response agencies, and they only work with the top half percent of 1% of all charities. So what happens to their 99% that also have amazing missions, fantastic donors, great stories to tell to me and I have feelings about that. I really feel like there should be greater space that we're all helping the greater sector because it shouldn't only based on how much money you have will you get help. So again this is part of who we are that Jen and I are both from believers and the money follows value. We are doing very, very well as an agency and we’re sure we might get into that a bit more and stuff. We're very proud of our work but we've always leaned into the idea of what's the value we're trying to put into the sector because we know we will reap the benefits of that and the rest is just based on good karma, good voodoo, just putting a lot of good feelings into the universe and into our people, our community, and it's it's just really served us very well.
00:13:44 Jess: Jen, when you were speaking, you mentioned the word privilege. And John, when you were speaking, you both mentioned that you have partners who were able to kind of float your experiment for at least six months to be OK. And I'm thinking of the people listening who are either single, single parents, they're women, they're from the BIPOC community, and they're just getting started and they don't carry that same privilege. I'm wondering what advice you might have to someone who's at the start of their journey, who wants to be able to do kind of scaled pricing? Or they want to be able to deliver the same package whether it's a bajillion dollar nonprofit or it's a $1.00 nonprofit, or also really want your advice on how you can afford to not take on a project because of your values. And I asked this as someone that you know, I see it all the time with consultants taking on projects that quite literally make them sick but like they need the money.
00:14:51 John: Alright. It's a really good question. I'll briefly... my whole thinking was and everything I've ever done is come from a relationship point of view. Like even before we started, in Agents of Good, when I was working my other freelance business, I really believed in the idea of creating relationships and not having an expectation of return on the relationship. I've always operated that sort of abundance mindset that if I help others, they will help me. You can't... I don't believe I have. We have a lot of consultant friends or people who are in the sector have started consultancies and hang with shingles who are like, "I have to get these new clients. Now, I have to sell this program. I have to do this." And I'm like, "You have no list. You have no community, you have no social currency. You are expecting to withdraw a whole lot with putting nothing in." And unfortunately, I always tell my people, "This is a long game, you have to. Everything in life, every relationship we have with our best friends is a long game. If you try to turn to your short game, you just cannot win." And so unless you're capable of investing in the long game and yes, looking for quick wins, I just don't think you can have a very successful long business life. You just can't start with no foundation. You need a strong foundation, whatever that means for you. I knew it meant for me, but it could be different for other people.
00:16:09 Jen: Yeah. And the other thing that I would add too is that like as much as John and I did both, when we started both as freelancers in our own independent consultancy, even when we were making our money by project to project, client to client, a couple of 100 bucks at a time from project to project to project, we were able to identify the opportunities to say, "This one felt really good and I would like more of this," versus "I felt like this was a bit transactional and I felt like the client kind of bitched and moaned about a couple of things that if I'd known earlier I could have avoided." And then even from your very first steps you can make choices that guide you more towards the people that are more aligned with your values and your systems.
00:16:59 Jen: So it is much harder to do when you're in an early situation and you have other conflicting priorities or things you need to consider. But you can still head towards the sun. Like my rule when I go for a walk with my husband and my dog is like we always head for the sun. Where's the sun? Let's walk in that direction. And so, whenever it's and when it's cloudy, we're just like, "Okay, we'll go where our feet carry us." But you can still make a choice even if you only have one client or two client or three clients, to say this one feels better, this one makes me feel more appreciated or understood, or this one just doesn't make me feel good for a reason that I can't put my finger on but I know that I would rather. If my phone rings on Monday morning at 9:00 AM, I hope it's this one over this one. Then you just have to follow that gut and that instinct. And even if you're in your very early stages, you can still identify your values and head in that direction. Even if you don't head that direction every time, you can still say, "Okay, I'm going to take on this project. It's easy, it's quick, it's a bit of a pain in the ass. They're going to give me a bunch of track changes that make my soul hurt when someone turns my copy into something that looks like it's been written by Frankenstein's monster, I can deal with it and I won't do that again or I'll do that differently next time." I think no matter where you are, you can still head towards the sun.
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00:18:23 Jess: I love that thing. That's so great. I'm wondering if you guys can go back. And John, you mentioned you didn't use this phrase, but so to speak, like planting seeds and it's a long game. And what effort are you putting in? Because I think you're right. A lot of nonprofit consultants are like, "I'm here," and they haven't really done the work. And it's like, "Yeah, it doesn't work like that," unfortunately. Trust me, I wish it did. I'm curious when you all were just getting started, how you put in some effort to drum up business? You know, any tactical examples would be really helpful I think.
00:19:08 Jess: Hi, John. Hi, Jen. We're back for another round of rapid fire questions. You up for playing?
00:19:14 John: Yes.
00:19:14 Jen: Absolutely.
00:19:16 Jess: Okay, my first question is where do each of you go to stay on top of your either design or writing game?
00:19:24 Jen: I go outside. I go to nature. I go for long walks with my dog and bring my binoculars and I look for birds.
00:19:32 John: Oh shit, my colleagues in the sector and who are doing interesting work as well.
00:19:38 Jess: Okay, amazing. Tell me, what does your ideal version of retirement look like?
00:19:45 John: For me, it's sitting somewhere in a nice patio with a double espresso, probably. Someone I love, and thinking about a project that I'm really excited about.
00:19:58 Jen: I think retirement for me looks like having my spouse, being with my spouse, Mark, and with at least one dog, and having our children or our children, adjacent people near us.
00:20:13 Jess: Amazing.
00:20:14 Jen: If you have a grandchildren.
00:20:18 Jess: Easy.
00:20:20 Cindy: No pressure. No pressure.
00:20:22 Jen: [overlap] even 16? Not now.
00:20:24 Cindy: It was a retirement question to be fair.
00:20:27 Jess: And if you were gifted an extra hour in your day, how would you spend it?
00:20:35 John: Ohh fuck. Meditating.
00:20:41 Jen: I was gonna say birding. So same thing
00:20:43 Cindy: John means flyers.
00:20:46 Jess: I just have to say quickly before we wrap up this fire that I saw this meme that was like, how did you spend like your first 37 years like not even knowing a type of bird, and then you turn 38 and suddenly you're like, "That's the brown witch cock," you know, it's like what?
00:21:06 Jen: It's true. And so birds are delightful, and watching birds is delightful. And they tell us everything we need to know about our ecosystem. If you're in an ecosystem and you see changes in the patterns in your birds, it's important. We all need to pay attention to the birds around us.
00:21:22 Jess: Yes. Well, anyways, thank you so much for playing.
00:21:29 John: So again from my perspective, starting a business, it's like charities who are trying to start fundraising for example. You all have someone and something and sometimes just saying it's like, "What do I have?" So like even now I'm trying to launch a little different off spin of the the business and stuff and I'm like we do have people in our community that say that would be interesting what we're trying to offer and so I think even when Jen and I started out it was just a matter of talking to some people who we knew would be like, "Ohh, you two are working together, that's interesting to me. Let's go for a coffee and talk about that." And so we'll talk and share about what our vision was and what we were doing and we plant that seed that if you ever went to a place where you want to talk about your program a bit, we're able to do that. And some people like, "Let's talk about right now." And some people like, "Yes."
00:22:17 John: Even now, there's sometimes we'll get a call from someone and it feels like, "Wow, this kind of came from nowhere." And I'm like actually I've been talking to this person for 13 years now and we just see each of the conferences And we catch up on work so it didn't come from nowhere. It was just to see that it took some time to actually grow but that was every business. If you want to start a business like what are you trying to offer someone and make sure you're talking to someone, you're offering them what they want. That's the key. That's your work is for you, what does that person want? Not for them to figure out how they can utilize you. You need to understand what you're offering them before you talk to them. And if you can do that, that's a good starting point for just getting a few projects and a few clients and just moving and growing from there.
00:23:00 Jen: I would also say, too, that part of the story for John and I is that, I mean, we did establish our partnership relatively early. I mean, early sounds like a million years ago now, but there was always... So John and I have established our business as a 50/50 Agents of Good as John and Jen, ride or die 100%. But there's always been another chair at our table and that chair is either clients or its donors or it's the kind of other people in our sector who we lean on, who we can call, who we can connect with. I think you get it. It's very easy when you're a small business or when you're a small partnership to get into this spiral of like I know everything and what I don't know, John knows and John thinks I know everything and what I don't know, Jen knows. We've always been very open to that third space at our table and that third space has been... there's been different bums and that sits at different times.
00:24:07 Jen: You know, my dad who's a fundraiser sits there sometimes and our clients for whom we're doing the best possible work and are just loving everything that we're doing, there at that seat sometimes. And sometimes it's the kind of client that we want like who's the person who's missing from here? And so, I think that John and I are always, as much as our partnership remains fulfilling and vital because I know that everything that I do every given day is made better by John. I also know that it's also made better by everything else that's out there that we plug into in different ways and losing sight of that and getting too focused on your own business and your own needs and your own budgets and your own quarter. Again, it's a long game, like these are long games.
00:24:59 Cindy: I love there's so much parallel or not parallel but you can see those values lived out in the story and history of your business. And I'd love to talk that's a long game. Like in our sector, I don't think there are that many partnerships and I don't think there are that many partnerships that have lasted, you know, 10 years incorporated, but probably more like just over 20 years working together in some way, shape or form. So can you take us back in time to maybe Jen and maybe John?
00:25:37 Jen: Be myself here.
00:25:37 Jess: I just love that you did that reference, and I'm wondering if anyone else will know what that's from. Yeah, like DMT. You'll have to DM if you know, because I know exactly what that is. Well, I was talking over you and no one can hear.
00:25:55 Cindy: Maybe no one heard. Yeah. Okay. So we're going to do the reference and take us back in time 2001, you were both baby consultants and just starting out. All right. Think you tarted consulting around that time. How did you sort of come to work alongside each other and then how did you establish like I said? Well, I think is one of the most iconic partnerships in the sector.
00:26:21 John: So I was a freelance designer and freelancing for Steven Thomas where Jen was working as an account manager. And Jen called me or sent a horse with a note back in those days saying I need some help with the mailing for ACT-The AIDS Committee of Toronto if I recall correctly and can you help with this pack? And I said sure and so we worked on the pack and I actually can visualize their envelope to stay and it was cool. And so that began the the start of a long beautiful relationship that really morphed into Jen leaving Stephen Thomas, me still being a freelance designer asking hired as a creative team on a couple of clients when was UNICEF and we did this this pack together this whole 'you are here' pack and really was about making sure the donor was visually inserted into every image that in through the pack they understood there as a role as a donor they even though they weren't actually there they were there and lean into our donor-centrism ideas and visually and told some great stories, create a very good pack that some of the old folks around this the ABC Warren was a little too interesting and newfangled for them.
00:27:39 John: And I do remember sitting in High Park with Jen one day and sort of saying like, "We work well together. This would be cool." And just like, "I want to have babies," and I'm like, "Cool! Well, one day, you know, let's talk about this because we jive and I think you're amazing and you seem to think I'm okay so let's just kind of talk about that planting that seed, right?" And so it was already kind of thinking about how we worked together creatively. But also, I knew that Jen had a strategic thoughtfulness that I had what was different because a lot of people saw me as a designer and I knew I needed that strategic ability that Jen now had from working as an account manager, and working at a charity, and having the inside knowledge. And again, was an exceptional creative that we gelled together. I was like, "This would take me mind my business from being this to this because now we could charge for the strategy and the thinking, not just the execution." Execution is sort of dismissed and like a well if we have money for writer, we'll hire one or a designer, but strategy, we need thinking so I was like that's where the value is in the strategic thinking. So that was the early baby days of John and Jen and how we kind of got there.
00:28:57 Jen: So the other side of it, from my perspective was that, I mean, I was, as John said, I we were both happily freelancing and I knew that I was going to be okay and do what I wanted to do and tell stories and help charities raise more money. And I remain a very reluctant slash bitchy business owner. I don't like the details. I don't like the ongoing invoicing, I don't like looking at reports quarter to quarter. I don't like knowing how I'm doing compared to how I did last year. I just want to keep focusing on who am I talking to today. Who has a neat story that I can turn into something important. And John wanted to fill that space of like, "I want to understand this. I want to strategize around it. I want to build on it. I want to create new things." And I'm like, "Great. I don't care about any of that. And I suck at it. And so how can we both as two creative people approach this in a way where we both feel like we're using our best selves." And I think I'm best used when I can be creative and thoughtful and open.
00:30:15 Jen: And I start to shrivel when I'm accounted and boxed in and needing to identify what I'm doing in March. And John plays that role in our partnership in terms of like, "I want to understand this puzzle, I want to solve the puzzle, I don't want to understand it." So that worked out perfectly too, because John really wanted and had the skills to put his arms around how do we take this business and run it in the way that it needs to be run? And I still suck at it and John still holds those reins. And without him, I wouldn't do any of that.
00:30:54 Jess: Jen, we are the same person and so I'm feeling so seen and heard and it's all good.
00:31:02 Cindy: I just wrote to Jess. I was like, "You are Jen, Jen is you."
00:31:09 Jess: Yeah, it's like nothing is more claustrophobic than trying to tie me down. But that leads to my question because... so we had Kishshana Palmer on our podcast when we first launched. And one of the things I remember her speaking to is if she were to start her business over again or ever start a new business, she would do it in a partnership. And she referenced our friends Becky and John who run We Are For Good. By the way, between all three of those businesses, Cindy's, there's a lot of goods happening in the business name.
00:31:44 Cindy: That's a whole other conversation.
00:31:46 Jess: Thanks. We're good. Good Partnership. We are...
00:31:50 Cindy: I hate my business name because I think it's a little over--
00:31:53 Jess: We're too far down.
00:31:55 Cindy: Where it's in. We're there. But yeah, another conversation.
00:32:00 Jess: And the reason why Kishshana said that she would do it that way is because there is someone... business is like this whole thing and no one person is going to be skilled in or interested in all the things. And so, I'm just curious how your partnership works. Like did you guys sit down and have a conversation like, "John, you're going to do all the details and the strategy and I'm going to be strictly creative." Or did it just kind of come up in your business? I can speak for Cindy and I like we've never really sat down. We always call each other mirror and images of each other because like all the stuff you were saying that makes you claustrophobic. That is like Cindy, like so much. And so sometimes I feel like getting hives and then I'm like, "No, this is keeping me organized. This is really healthy. This is really great." So, but I'm just curious because in a partnership can also cause friction. And I'm just curious how you guys either divide and conquer or I mean, you've been at this a while now, so you probably just know each other's thoughts before they speak them out loud. I'm just curious how you figured that out at the beginning.
00:33:11 John: I would say the beginning was simple because I enjoyed doing design. Jen enjoys writing. We enjoy putting our heads together as we move through the art of storytelling from the moment we're like we got a mailing to do and we were holding hands and moving through that experience together and collaborating and bouncing each other off. As Jen started through the copy and I started to think about the design and boom, he was a product, you know, it was simple. It was simpler than it was just Jen and I and through the years like as a business, you know, I'm entering into the last year in my 40s now and stuff. And I'm thinking about this business as I put in 25 years of work into my career and stuff. And now I'm thinking about part 2 of my career and the realities of life and of aging and our families and all those things. And thinking this business for it to keep going has to change. It has to move into Agents of Good of as this idea of this expression of this what it will unlock for your organization and its donors.
00:34:20 John: And that's it. This has been a tough metamorphosis in our work because it can't be John and Jen. And so, as business owners, Jen and I continually support each other. We continually hold each other's hands, we continually help each other out the best we can. But as creative collaborators, we are sort of disconnected and pulled apart. And like Jen and I sat down a year ago at this sort of COVID because it should been tough, like few years of not seeing each other and being able to just put eyeballs on one another and talk and feel each other out and stuff.
00:34:59 John: And so, that's the nature of this business is it does change and adding new people and new ideas and Jen and I are both leaning into what are we both good at and how can we both be our best in this metamorphosis stuff. So it was never a conscious you're doing this and I'm doing that aside from the only conscious decision I ever made was that I was crystal clear and who was going to be the president of this freaking thing? And that wasn't gonna be me. And it was important to me that Jen love was the Queen honcho of this friggin' thing because we needed and still need more female leaders in this sector. There's enough of me out there. And so that's that was the only real conscious decision I think I have really made about who was doing what and it was just like--
00:35:48 Jen: That was definitely part of our whole origin story because we knew that we both wanted to do the work we were doing and we both knew that the work that we were doing together was better than the work that we would do on our own. And so, John, I was a bit kicking and screaming like pulled backwards through a hedge like meeting with lawyers, meeting with accountants in order to set up this business. And I didn't give a shit about any of it even though I know I needed to. And even just from a tax perspective, functioning as two sole proprietors was very expensive and costly and complicated. So creating a business that we co-owned made sense, but that I knew that, the rest of it, I didn't care about and was very reluctant and kind of bitchy about all the details. But we're sitting in front of our lawyers and our accountants and they said, "Well, in order to be a corporation, you need two things. You need a president and you need a secretary," and like a lightning bolt through my brain was like, "I'm no fucking secretary. That's not happening." And it was, you know, generations of feminist learning, plus, plus, plus and this is all going through my head as we're sitting in front of these lawyers as the lawyer says, "So I think, you guys need a minute to maybe talk about it and figure out how you want to divide this because you only need 2 rules. You need a President and you need a secretary. We'll give you a minute." And John, I'll never forget, picked up the pen from the lawyers table, clicked it and handed it to me and said, "Madam President," and he knew that it was.
00:37:28 Jen: I mean, it's essentially, in performance, we're totally equal. Everything that happens at Agents of Good is 50/50. Everything that any decisions that are made run through both of us. But he knew that I would have feelings about being a secretary, even though being a secretary is as important or more important than being a President. And he didn't care. I cared. He cared before I did, even though I was emotionally responding to it. He knew. And it was just these little things that happen all the time that remind us that we are equal partners and that somebody takes a step forward and somebody takes a step back. So it's by design and it's also constantly evolving.
00:38:20 Cindy: I want to... we're running out of time but I want to wrap up on that idea of constantly evolving because it sounds like you're sort of holding it tension. Care for each other and self care. And as your company has grown, you know, you have built families and all these other things. So how do you check in with yourselves or manage that tension? And sometimes, obviously, it's very harmonious and like everything works out for everyone, it's all good. But those can't be, you know the truth all the time. So you know, as you, Jen and John, you mentioned like that you're sort of moving into a new phase. How do you make sure because it's obvious, that so core to who you are as human beings is that care for each other and so how do you balance those things as you move forward, as you figure out the next phase for Agents of Good.
00:39:26 John: Yeah, I would say it's just like a marriage. I mean Jen are both emotionally intelligent, open hearted feelings people and you. Sometimes in business, you have to check it and hasn't put it aside for maybe a moment and just go what's right, let's think about this with our heads a bit more than our hearts and stuff. But as any good marriage, any good relationship, any good partnership, Jen and I have open conversations. Sometimes we acknowledge we haven't had that open conversation and we're harboring some feelings, maybe some resentment. Maybe I've been overlooked for someone else for the last little while and let's talk about that. But we operate that. I've said to people, Jen and I, it's just like a mayor, the only thing that's missing is the one key thing you have but I'm just saying it's true. But generally, otherwise it's that to me it feels exactly the same. You have to have open conversation, and open feelings, and space to share your vulnerabilities and your fears and the things you're worried about and you're scared about. And I think that's the only way to really have like you've said Cindy, that deep, emotional connection which I think is come through in our work and our connections and our people for so long because Jen and I inherently, deeply, deeply care for one another to the end of the day. And that's come from years of just like The Beatles, just hanging out in hotel rooms together for hours and hours and hours and just caring about one another. So it's a beautiful thing. Hard to replicate, I think.
00:41:01 Jen: Yeah, agreed. And I think the other thing is that we've been, I mean, even so, from the very beginning. Back in 2001 when we were both side-by-side freelancers, I mean we had the no jackass rule and we also had the personal wellness comes first rule. Like if somebody is taking a extra long walk in the morning or if somebody has a workout that they can't reschedule, then our personal wellness, especially when it comes to either getting outside or doing some kind of physical fitness, whether that's with a personal trainer or whether that's playing tennis or that's playing soccer or whatever, that comes before clients. And so, if John and I are in a like that's overdue and I'm like, "Dude, I have a tennis match in 15 minutes," it's like, "Fine, call me afterwards." And we are very clear about what our command performance is. And I think we could probably count on two hands, the number of times that we've said to each other. This is a command performance, I need you right now.
00:42:02 Jen: And when John says that to me, or when I say that to him, that means everything. And when you don't use it very often, it becomes the more powerful tool. And when you're able to say, "Okay, I really would like to talk to you in the next hour. But if you're about to go have a tennis match or you're about to go work out or you're halfway through a bird walk with your dog, I'll figure it out." And I think that's a huge, like respecting the kind of command performance and respecting the kind of like what can I figure out on my own piece has been hugely important for us and remains so. Right?
00:42:47 Jess: Yeah. I mean, I think it just reinforces your trust in one another again and again and again, year after year. John, Jen, this has been a delight. And for someone who's just meeting you and learning about your work kind of for the first time, I've definitely heard of your agency before, but this was such a treat for me. For anyone that's listening that would love to follow along or learn more about your work or maybe even partner up with your agency, what is the best way for them to be in touch?
00:43:19 John: Well, our poor, poor website is still in half decent place to find information about ourselves at agentsofgood.org. I'm still semi-active on Twitter @JohnLepp, but those are probably the two biggest things… I will… if I can I do a plug. I'm allowed to plug anything here? So I have released back this year in May, a book called 'Creative Deviations,' which is all about unlocking creativity in direct response in a pretty fun, easy reading, but very informative book, I think. It's a good place to learn about what we do and how we do it, but also to help you with your own programs and stuff. And Jen and I are both teachers. We love teaching and guiding and helping and growing people and stuff, so we're here for it. We're here for interesting, intelligent, thoughtful, engaging conversations with passionate people. And you can find us. If that's what your jam is. Don't worry, we'll find each other.
00:44:18 Jess: I love that. Yes. Please go seek out John and Jen. Thank you both for being here and for all the work you do to lift up our sector. Thank you both.
00:44:33 Cindy: Thank you again for listening to the Confessions Podcast for nonprofit coaches and consultants. If you enjoyed today's episode, which I sure hope you did, you can show your support in one of three ways.
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00:45:10 Jess: And to our fellow non-profit coaching and consulting friends, remember we're an open book and here to answer your burning biz questions.