“And I wish more people were like me. I wish more people would just give themselves a break and know that it's okay to screw up because other people learn from that. And again, there's value, I think, in seeing how you respond to the screw ups.” - Kamilah Martin

In this episode, we had the pleasure of chatting with Kamilah Martin, the founder and CEO of Katalyst, who shared her valuable insights and experience as an interim executive director for nonprofits. Kamilah revealed some practical tips on how she manages to balance her workload while prioritizing rest and self-care, and how she sets boundaries with her clients to avoid burnout. 

Highlights:

• The power of REST 

• Master the art of LinkedIn outreach with Kamilah's strategies  

• Balancing work with rest and other passions

• Kamilah’s 60-40 rule to manage her business and work with clients

• Setting boundaries with clients and maintaining healthy working relationships

• Organic growth approach to community-building for nonprofits

• Embracing vulnerability

Connect with Kamilah Martin:

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kamilah-martin-67673b8

Website: https://www.katalystconsult.com/

Find Us Online:  https://www.confessionswithjessandcindy.com/

Connect with Cindy:

Cindy Wagman Coaching https://cindywagman.com/

The Good Partnership https://www.thegoodpartnership.com/

Connect with Jess: 

Out In the Boons: https://www.outintheboons.me/

Transcript:

00:00:00 Cindy: Welcome to the Confessions podcast. I'm Cindy Wagman.

00:00:03 Jess: And I'm Jess Campbell. Where two former in house nonprofit pros turn coaches and consultants to purpose driven organizations.

00:00:11 Cindy: After years of building up our separate six figure businesses from scratch, we've thrown a lot of spaghetti at the wall and have lived to see what sticks.

00:00:20 Jess: We're on a mission to help other nonprofit coaches and consultants looking to start or scale their own businesses past the six figure mark by pulling back the curtain.

00:00:30 Cindy: Whether you're still working inside a nonprofit and thinking of one day going out on your own or you've been running your consulting business for years, you understand that working with nonprofits is just different. We're giving you access to the business leaders who serve nonprofits as their clients. You know, the people who truly get it.

00:00:52 Jess: No more gatekeeping, no more secrets. This podcast is going to give you an inside look at what running a successful nonprofit coaching and consulting business looks like. Basically, we're asking people how much money they make, how they get paid, and what has and hasn't worked in their businesses.

00:01:11 Cindy: We'll listen in as these leaders share their insights, their numbers, and the good, the bad and the ugly, when it comes to building a nonprofit coaching or consulting business. We're going to empower you to make the power moves that give you the income and freedom you set out to create from day one.

00:01:28 Jess: You ready? Let's go.

00:01:32 Jess: Kamilah, what is it about rest that you are so passionate about?

00:01:38 Kamilah: It was so funny. It never was a conscious thing that I just said I'm going to be all about rest right now. And I know the Nap Ministry has popularized it, and I encourage everyone to go check out their ministry. I was mainly just craving safety, if that makes sense. I was in some traumatic experiences with past work. And I just got burnt out. And I was like, “I can't do this anymore.” So it became essential to me for survival, almost. I know that sounds dramatic, but I needed to slow down. And I needed to be taken care of, and I needed to take care of myself. And so I make sure that I try and incorporate that.

00:02:32 Kamilah: Interestingly, when I was a kid, I wasn't allowed to rest, if that makes sense. I had a parent who... My dad always wanted us to wake up early and study and do work. And we can only watch a couple of hours of TV. So I almost had this shame associated with resting until I got to a point where I was just like, “Look, I have to undo this and unlearn this and figure out why I'm carrying this with me and be okay with just chilling out.” So, yeah, that's a long answer. And I guess it ended up being a deeper answer than I was expecting to give.

00:03:13 Jess: No, we love it. So for everyone listening, we have the honor and pleasure of having Kamilah Martin of Katalyst on the show today. And she is a woman of many talents, in fact. Maybe tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do in the world of the nonprofit space.

00:03:34 Kamilah: Sure. So thank you. I am Kamilah Martin, the founder and CEO of Katalyst. We started in October 2020. So I was part of the great resignation. There's a lot that went into that. Maybe we'll touch on it, maybe not. But I've been sharing a little bit more about my story and my journey. But my consulting practice is primarily interim executive consulting. That's what keeps the lights on at this point. So basically, when a senior leader or a head of a team resigns or gets fired, there's disruption and turmoil that tends to happen on the team. And smart executive directors try and find good people to come in and help stabilize things. So that's what I do. And I fell into it. I was an outlooking for it. I've managed teams pretty much my whole life when I think back on it. And I really, really enjoy coming into a space, making it better and bouncing. So that's the primary thing that I do.

00:04:35 Jess: Okay. I don't think we've had anyone on the show to talk about interim consulting work. So I have so many questions. I know you said you fell into it, but two and some change years later. It seems to be going okay. Can we just back into... I mean, how are you getting those type of referrals? Does that work just come to you? Are you out there pitching that? That seems a much more intimate plus long term commitment for nonprofit clients, which in my experience, is sometimes hard to get them to commit to. So I'm just so curious about how that work comes to you. How do you find those clients?

00:05:18 Kamilah: Yeah, so it's a little bit of both of those things that you offered. So the first time that I started in this space, it was a referral from another client that I was doing some organizational development work. She was a new president to an organization and needed to build things up from scratch. And she brought me in to help her, support her. And so when that gig was done, someone on her board had to fire basically someone on their team in a leadership role in the programming department. And so they needed someone to come in. And crisis management almost, rebuilt cultures, stability, like I mentioned, make sure donors and funders felt safe and felt okay with what was happening with the organization.

00:06:08 Kamilah: And so they brought me in. So it was initially supposed to be, I think, a three to four month term and ended up being close to nine months. And basically what happens is I do the work. I just seamlessly come in and do the work to keep strategy and everything moving forward, so they can focus on the search. So that was the first one. And then another, most recent opportunity, I actually pitched myself because I wasn't hustling a whole lot once that client ended. Because I was focusing on a couple of other things. And then I got to the point where I was like, “Okay, I need some money.”

00:06:41 Kamilah: And so actually, beginning of this year, I sent out some... I think it's pretty random pitches on LinkedIn to some CEOs and executive directors that I've been following for some time. I knew I wanted to be in a space with women leadership. I wanted ideally a Black woman or a woman of color because I hadn't worked in that space, in this capacity and consulting capacity. So I emailed a few people. And the timing just worked out where someone was opening a role for a vice president of programming and needed someone to help the team deal with a lot of transition. So that's what I'm doing now. So it's both referrals and outreach.

00:07:23 Cindy: I love that. And also, you must be a huge wealth of knowledge.

00:07:31 Kamilah: I've seen some things.

00:07:33 Cindy: Yeah. One of the things other people I know who've done interim work talk about is the peaks and valleys, but also busyness and rest. I've heard interim work can be very intensive. And you kicked us off this show talking about rest. And so are you finding interim work as intense as if you were in the house? How do you build in time around rest either in the day to day when you're in a gig or between gigs?

00:08:13 Kamilah: So one thing I do is I don't work more than two to three days a week. So it's not a five day a week gig. First of all, I mean, a lot of organizations don't want to pay for that or don't have that in their budget, or they probably hired a search firm to manage the search. So it's doubling up on their budget. But that's how I do it. Right now, I work two and a half days a week. So the other two and a half days, I'm either with other clients, which I would ideally not like to do, or I'm pursuing other passions and things that I'm working on. So rest is built into the equation for me. I don't think, or I would not want to push myself to do a five day a week in this role. It is intense. You have to just get in there and rev yourself up very quickly and get familiar with the team and the mission and the strategy and all that stuff really fast. So it's really intense onboarding. And then there's a valley where you can actually start to do some things like efficiencies and support staff members, build new staffing structures or recommend new staffing structures. And so rest is built into the way I operate.

00:09:30 Cindy: All right, both Jess and I are dying to get questions in. I want to ask. You mentioned time to work on other passions. And as someone who is a workaholic, I always talk about that, too. But usually my other passions are also work related. I'm like, “I want more time.” And then I end up doing more work. I would love to hear from you. How are you feeling the other time? Is it work related? Because I know a lot of us, we do want to be creative in our business and have time for that. But also, life is more than just work. So I'm really curious. What are the other things that you are intentional with in terms of spending that other two and a half to two days a week?

00:10:21 Kamilah: So it is work related. So maybe I fit to the workaholic team. But it's work related that builds and fun, if that makes any sense. So one of the other things that I do is I run a mastermind community for nonprofit consultants, primarily centering Black women who were transitioning from their executive director level nine to five and nonprofit into independent consulting. And so I have a community right now of about 25 women. I started it last January when I was just getting my legs in this consulting space. And I started being more vocal about my journey on LinkedIn. And people started reaching out to me to say, “I'm in this space too. How do you do the XYZ?” And I'm like, “I don't know. Let's figure it out together.”

00:11:08 Kamilah: And so I built this space for us to do just that. And one of the four tenants is kind of show up as you are. Be fun. Some people come with their durags and their bonnets on. Some people come blasting their music. That's a theme of my life right now. Just safety, psychological safety because I just never felt that I had that when I really think back, showing up, how I want to show up. It's funny. These earrings right here, in one of my last organizations, there was a woman who said to me. She was like, “Black women get away with wearing the funkiest earrings” or something like that. And I was just like, “There we go. I'm another, already.” I just wanted to be in a space where nobody's picking and pointing and prodding, and you have to figure out how you want to fit into the space. So I try and create those environments and places with all the things that I do. So that's one thing.

00:11:58 Kamilah: And then the other thing is I started a retreat again to pour luxury and love into Black women. After 2020, I was just like, “Look, the world ain't loving us, so I'm going to make sure I create a space to love us.” I want it to be luxury. There's a space for the rustic mountain views of the bathroom in an outhouse situation, which I appreciate. I did one of those. I lived in a year for a week. It was actually pretty life changing for me. It's what crystallized a lot of these things that I'm doing now. But when I got back from that, I was like, “I want this with people bringing me a margarita.” And I also wanted to see us in spaces that people might not be used to seeing us in like luxury. That's how I'm doing it.

00:12:47 Kamilah: Last year, we went to a resort that the royals frequent when they traveled to Jamaica. So I wanted that to be part of our stories as well. We were able to be in those spaces too. And so that's the other thing. So it's three jobs and creatively, I'm also a nature photographer. So I picked that up, actually during the year trip. And I started doing photography. And that's been really just a place of peace for me whenever I'm somewhere and just need to pause and slow down. That's what creates that environment for me.

00:13:27 Jess: Okay, this is so good. And I know Cindy is laughing at me because we were just on our own business retreat. And one night, we were walking to dinner, and we were talking about how cool it would be to host some retreat. And I was just very clear, like, “I'm not a camping girl. None of that sounds fun to me.” I could do probably a yurt, but like communal bathrooms, I stopped there. That’s just no. I'm trying to figure out how to do it. I'm so glad that you're offering that for, and I love that you said in a space where it's not commonly seen. I love that you're creating that.

00:14:10 Jess: One of the things I want to go back to is what you said towards the beginning about being in a place where a project ended and you, I think, said something like, “You weren't hustling, and so you have to start doing some pitching.” And I found that so relatable because I see it all the time with nonprofit consultants, who are so consumed with the work that they don't carve out the space to be marketing themselves for the future projects ahead.

00:14:42 Jess: And so I'm just curious a little bit about you mentioned cold pitching on LinkedIn, which sounds very brave to me. I know you are very consistent about showing up on that platform as a thought leader, so I would love for you to just walk us through. What shifted in your brain where you're like, “Okay, I got to go out there and get it?" To then also, "How do I do that in a way that feels good to me and doesn't”? Frankly, it worked. You pitched. You said this most recent client. So that whole process is, I'm just so curious about it.

00:15:18 Kamilah: Yeah, it's a case of one. So hopefully, I can repeat this and have the same success. But I would say, I've broken it down to myself. To do this right for me, it needs to be a 60-40 balance. So 60% doing the work, 40% continuing to put myself out there during the week. One day a week, I have locked on my calendar for prospecting and follow up. So each week, I need to be cultivating, I think, or not cultivating. I don't like the way that feels, but relationship building, right, checking in with folks, seeing how they're doing, and seeing if the work comes into the conversation. But that's not really the agenda. The agenda is really to check in with folks and see what's going on. I like to know what's happening in the industry, stay abreast on top of all that stuff.

00:16:14 Kamilah: The switch for me that happened, I mean, I needed the money. My gig ended last March. And if I was smart, I would have started looking harder three months, when things were three months out. And that's what I'm trying to do now. So this gig now is two to three months. And right now, I'm looking for my next thing for the second half of the year. So I don't even know if I answered your question.

00:16:42 Jess: No, you totally. That's so super helpful. I think that timeline is really helpful for folks listening. And then I'm just curious about how you put it in the inbox on LinkedIn.

00:16:52 Kamilah: Yeah. So it's funny. In my community, I share the exact email, verbatim of what I said. I was like, “Hey, this is what I'm doing this week. Use this, tweak it,” whatever. So I think I said something like, “I've been following you for some time on LinkedIn. I'm just going to put it out there. This is what I do. I'd love to work with you.” I was so direct, which is not my normal style. But I feel if you posted something today about this, you have to ask for what you want, right? They're not going to know what to say they need unless you specifically say, “This is what I do. I want to work with you. Can we figure something out?” It was basically the gist of it. I put prettier language or whatever in there. I think for those that it speaks to me that people have that, they might not know they have, if that makes any sense.

00:17:54 Kamilah: Honestly, I've done this now several times, this interim thing. And I'm like, “Every organization should be utilizing this because what it does is it keeps the work flowing where there can be bottlenecks and roadblocks and hiccups. And you're having to deal with personnel issues and people being unhappy and other people wanting to leave.” If you're an ED listening, get yourself a good four or five people that are empathetic, have good emotional intelligence are people... people are good managers. You don't need someone who's going to build your strategy in this stage. That's for the next person. You need someone who's going to come in and support your people. And I don't know why more people don't do that. I've seen it happen where you can bring someone in, and it's not the right fit. So that's why I say focus on empathetic leaders who are about people. And I think that helps the organization continue to flow.

00:18:49 Cindy: Amazing. I want to have so many questions, but I want to stay for a minute in this direct and clear and boundaries. Because the other thing that bring this back to what you do and working two and a half to three days a week with clients, I hear from other consultants all the time the worry about scope creep, or if you tell them they're getting this much time, they keep asking for more. And so how do you manage those boundaries with clients? When does that start? How do you set up? How do you be clear and direct with not only like, “Yeah, I want to work with you but here's how I work and I'm not budging on certain things.”

00:19:44 Kamilah: Yeah. I don't play with my calendar and my time, if you're hiring me for two and a half days a week. So for example, specific example, this most recent client. I work Mondays, half day, Wednesdays and Thursdays. So I have on my signature and my email. These are my hours, these are my days. I may reply to you outside of your hours. This is when I'm working. I do check email occasionally outside of those times, but I force myself not to respond because you're training then people to understand again what your boundaries are, right, and when you're going to be available. They had regularly scheduled meetings on Tuesday, which is one of the days that I'm not in. So the options are, you can shift in or I won't be there. That's just how it has to go.

00:20:33 Cindy: What did they choose? What did they choose?

00:20:35 Kamilah: Both. There was one, my smaller team meeting, we shifted the meeting to a day that I could be there. That made sense because I'm leading that team. And I think there's a manager's meeting that they kept on, whatever today. Today is what, Tuesday? On Tuesdays. Because that can go without me, right? And they can just fill me in when I come back on the important stuff. I block the time on my calendar, so no one can put meetings on my calendar. I say, “I'm out of office these days.” And that's something I learned after my last client because there was some of that creep. And also for me, I wanted to constantly stay abreast of what was going on, and I didn't want to come back to 50 emails when I did come back. So I had to learn to be clear up front.

00:21:25 Kamilah: And it was funny. One of the women who had managed at the last organization, she tells people all the time, “Kamilah didn't play with her calendar. You knew it was 5:00. If you needed something, you're going to have to wait until she's back on.” So my hope also is that it's freeing for other people to set boundaries for themselves. That's my hope for my team as well. If you're working with me and I have strict boundaries, I hope that gives you permission to also have strict boundaries for yourself, to know that you have a leader putting that expectation in place, I guess.

00:22:04 Jess: Okay, Kamilah, we're back for another round of rapid fire questions. Are you up for playing?

00:22:10 Kamilah: Let's play.

00:22:11 Jess: Yay. Okay, so we talked a lot about your luxury retreats. Where is the next spot or a couple of spots you want to travel to?

00:22:22 Kamilah: Well, I want to go anywhere in Africa. It's been on my list. I used to work in an organization that worked overseas and was just about to go before COVID. So Africa. Anywhere, any country, I don't care.

00:22:37 Jess: It's a big continent.

00:22:39 Kamilah: It is.

00:22:41 Jess: I’m so curious. What specifically does rest look like for you?

00:22:45 Kamilah: Naps.

00:22:47 Jess: Me too. Are you a 20 minute nap or a two hour nap?

00:22:51 Kamilah: I do both, but I've just gotten into the quick 20 minute right before I pick up the kids, take a 20 minute nap, and then for chaos ensues. But yes, naps.

00:23:04 Jess: I love it. I love it so much. You mentioned that during the beginning of 2020, you started to get into photography. What is something that someone interested in that passion project? Where would someone begin? Did you go on YouTube? Did you pick up a camera?

00:23:24 Kamilah: I bought a fancy camera when my daughter was born and never taught myself the camera. And then when I was in New York, I brought the book with me to learn the camera. And then YouTube, I did. I spent that week there on YouTube looking at tutorials for how to work all the little functions and stuff on the camera.

00:23:43 Jess: I love that. Okay, and then last question, you mentioned in our interview that you practiced pitching on LinkedIn. What is the best pitch you've ever received on LinkedIn?

00:23:59 Kamilah: They're all usually awful.

00:24:03 Jess: Yeah.

00:24:07 Kamilah: I don't know how to answer that, Jess.

00:24:09 Jess: Maybe you haven't gotten one yet.

00:24:10 Kamilah: I don't know that I've gotten a good pitch.

00:24:15 Jess: Challenge, everyone. Now you've heard it. Okay, cool.

00:24:19 Kamilah: Blowing up my inbox. Okay.

00:24:23 Jess: Totally. Thank you so much for playing.

00:24:26 Kamilah: Thank you. It was fun.

00:24:30 Jess: Cindy, do you have one more question you want to ask because I want to switch to your group?

00:24:34 Cindy: Yeah, one more question. Because you mentioned this in passing, but I actually think that this is also something that comes up for so many consultants. You talked a little bit about your day you dedicate to just reaching out to people, not necessarily asking for business, but just checking in and keeping those relationships warm. And I think a lot of people struggle with that. And so I'd love to hear a little bit about why and how you make it really authentic and caring and what it's done for you?

00:25:11 Kamilah: That's a good question because I don't know that I put too much thought into it. I think my nature is generally just open and what you see is what you get and vulnerable. And that's how I approach checking back in with both. I'm trying to think. I usually will follow up on whatever our last conversation was, something that they mentioned, and just say, “What's going on in your world,” pretty much is how I approach it. “It's been a while since we talked. Let's catch up.” And I usually don't do more than 15, 30 minutes. I don't schedule an hour. We usually do a 15 minute catch up because that doesn't feel overwhelming to them either, to put 15 minutes on your calendar. Usually, honestly, that's enough time. And you said, what it's done for me, was that the other question?

00:26:03 Cindy: Yeah, but I even have a mini question in between, which is, and again, this is super practical, but I really think people need to hear it. How do you choose who to reach out to?

00:26:13 Kamilah: People I've worked with primarily. That's the primary thing on my list. I wish I had a better system with it. I tried to do a spreadsheet. Actually, I made a spreadsheet of people that I've worked with on projects in the past, even when I was in my full time role. We worked with a consultant doing a COS marketing campaign. So they go on the list. People from grad school, they go on the list. Those are, again, people that I know.

00:26:43 Kamilah: And then for the cold, and I've done some cold outreaches too. I'm trying to be more mindful of local connections. I'm in Florida, so I'm doing more lunch and breakfast, meetups with people now. And again, I'll reach out to them on LinkedIn and say, “Hey, we both work in the space. I'm really looking to get to know more folks locally. You want to grab tea or breakfast or something?" And that's a sign that I'm old that I make breakfast meetings. I'm up at the crack of dawn with my kids, so I'm ready to go. We can meet at 7:30 if you want. And a lot of people have taken me up on that. Not 7:30, but an 8:00, 8:30 meeting. But anyway, that's who I ask and how I ask.

00:27:28 Jess: I love that because it's also know your audience and the idea of professionals who maybe have obligations in the evening or young kids at home. The idea of drinks [sounds] fun in theory and is totally impossible to execute. So I think that that's actually really smart.

00:27:51 Kamilah: 30% any day.

00:27:56 Cindy: Sign me up.

00:27:57 Jess: And I love that you're going local because I think that people are so fatigued online. And it's way faster and easier and more effective to build a relationship straight up in person than it is online. I think that's super smart.

00:28:16 Kamilah: Yeah, one thing I’ll say about that. Interestingly, my work is primarily in New York and DC. And I like that for a couple of reasons. One reason is that I can charge higher rates in metropolitan areas. So here, developing relationships here, if my rate is 150 to 200 an hour, that might not sit as well in Florida as it does in New York City where they're used to seeing those kinds of numbers. So while I'm making local connections interestingly, I'm pursuing work in the metropolitan cities.

00:28:59 Jess: I mean, that totally makes sense. Totally. I'd love to switch gears just a little bit because I know that you're also intentionally building this community. And does the community have a name?

00:29:10 Kamilah: It's the Katalyst Mastermind Community.

00:29:13 Jess: Okay, the Katalyst Mastermind Community. And as someone that also builds communities, it's not as maybe easy and fast as people think. And so I'm curious for you to talk about how you're getting the word out about that. Do you do indirect marketing where you're just sharing results of people who've gone through the program? Do people come to the program because they have reached out to you and they're like, “I want to hear about your business”, or, "How did you do this?" And then you're like, “Well, we've got this thing.” I just know from personal experience how much effort can go into it. And it's usually a slow build, maybe not for you, maybe yours is rapidly here, and then tell me all your secrets. But yeah, I'm just curious how you manage that other side of your business, which is so exciting.

00:30:05 Kamilah: Yeah. So the timing of when I started, I think was really good for me. When I first decided to do this again, it was during the great resignation where everyone's considering these sorts of things. And so I started again sharing more of my story on LinkedIn, opened it up, and immediately had, I think the first, we had cohorts at the time, was 25 people immediately. And I was just like, “Oh, this is a thing.” And then the second cohort we had was a lower number of people, I think only six. Because I increased the fee, that wasn't the best model. And so I learned from that and pivoted and just made it an open membership model and brought the fee back down.

00:30:55 Kamilah: So initially, it was again, just sharing as I was building online, which I think got people really interested in me and my story and how I was doing it. And then they wanted to be a part of something together. I would love to say that I have a marketing strategy. I do not. And I think, if I were to do it as a legit business, right, if I'm really like, “I'm an entrepreneur. This is what I'm doing,” I would tease up certain times of year. January, people are in the mind of change and new. And so I would do a big push at the end of the year to try and get a bunch of people in January and have them be a part of it.

00:31:44 Kamilah: But right now, it's just trickling in. I occasionally will post on LinkedIn something about the community, something about what we're up to. I've done a couple of public. I’ve pulled the curtain back and let people peek at what we do. One of our sessions was open last year on navigating health insurance as a self employed person, which was, I did a LinkedIn poll a couple of years ago. If you wanted to be a consultant, what's one thing that's blocking you? And the top answer was health insurance. So I brought someone to talk about that. I brought someone to talk about that and opened it up to people. So I got some folks on my list from that event. And we'll probably do that one or two times a year just so people can see.

00:32:29 Kamilah: But right now, we actually just switched to the Circle platform. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that. So I was looking at Mighty Networks or Circle. Right now, we're on LinkedIn only. We have a LinkedIn group and then Google Drive and stuff like that. But we're getting in a place where I want it to be more formal. And so I can do a free trial with Circle. So I'm going to just open it up and let people come check us out, actually get in it and then decide at that point what they want to do. Most people who have joined have either been referred from other members or they reach out to me, and we have a conversation, and they sign up. So it's very slow.

00:33:09 Cindy: But sometimes that's okay, right? And actually one of the things you said, my little radar went off. I was like, “Okay, we need to talk about that,” which is you mentioned. You were sharing as you were building. And I think it's related to the slow piece, which is I think so many consultants feel like we have to have it all perfect or planned or done before we open ourselves up to the world. And it sounds like your approach is much more organic. And this is the space, and it is what it is. You're welcome to join us, which I think is really powerful in terms of creating meaningful community. So can you tell us a little bit about that vulnerability of putting yourself out there as you learn or make changes after you've put yourself out there and what that was like?

00:34:07 Kamilah: Yeah, I think I have a pretty high tolerance for embarrassment, and I don't take a whole lot personally. And I like failing. I'm not risk averse. So I think that, again, that's just how I'm built. So it makes it a little bit easier for me. And again, my hope is that me, showing up, this gives other people permission to feel it's okay or take some of the pressure off of themselves. Because if they see 89.6% of the time, I have no idea what the hell I'm doing, and I'm figuring it out. And they see sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. And how I bounce back from that and all of that's part of it. And I think it's important to share that.

00:34:50 Kamilah: I did the same thing with my kids. I remember before I had kids. I was like, “I never want them to think I'm a perfect parent.” I want them to hear me curse every now and then, if it slips out, and let them know that, “Oh, that's a bad word. This is why, blah, blah, blah.” I prefer for it to be a lesson and for them to see that I'm flawed and imperfect so that they know that they can be flawed and imperfect and still be beautiful and perfect, right? So that's just how I show up, and it's worked for me. And like I said, I've managed teams my whole life. Even if you think about the dance team in high school and blah, blah, blah, I've been this kind of person and all of that. And I really think it's refreshing. And I wish more people were like me. I wish more people would just give themselves a break and know that it's okay to screw up because other people learn from that. And again, there's value, I think, in seeing how you respond to the screw ups.

00:35:51 Jess: I think that you are the perfect person in the perfect space, doing the perfect job at the perfect time because you are our people where you're not gatekeeping. You are an open book, and there's such a lack of that in our space. And so I just know that so many people are learning from you along the way, and I think we're all so grateful. As we wrap up this conversation, one thing we like to ask all our guests is, what is your confession? It can be related to your self development. It can be related to your business. But if you had to confess one thing, what would it be?

00:36:35 Kamilah: Let me think about that. I want to go back to the theme that we just talked about. I'm messy. If you look at my table, you will see literally, I'm messy. But I'm also a lot to handle, and I think some people can appreciate that. One minute, I'm going this direction. And if it doesn't feel right, I can very quickly be going this direction. And that creates some turmoil for people that need stability and understanding of things. Jess, you know this. I'm going through a divorce right now, and I think that led to a lot of it, too. I need constant engagement and stimulation. And I think that's a lot to handle for some. So if it's a personal confession, yes.

00:37:38 Jess: We appreciate it. Kamilah, where can people who are interested in following you, learning about you, hiring you, get more information?

00:37:49 Kamilah: Thank you. I am on LinkedIn, like we've talked about. They need to start paying me, I think, because I promote them all the time. So LinkedIn, Kamilah Martin, is where I blog the most. And I respond to all of my direct messages and that sort of thing. I try and comment when people comment. And then my website is Katalyst, with the K, Consult, with the C, .com.

00:38:13 Jess: Love it . Thank you so much for being here.

00:38:15 Kamilah: Thank you. This is it? I want to keep talking.

00:38:20 Cindy: I know where your [thoughts]. I wish you could keep [crosstalk]. We’ll be back on again.

00:38:26 Kamilah: Thank you. This is fun. Thank you both.

00:38:31 Cindy: Thank you again for listening to the Confessions podcast for nonprofit coaches and consultants. If you enjoyed today's episode, which I sure hope you did, you can show your support in one of three ways.

00:38:42 Jess: Number one, post a screenshot of this episode to your Instagram stories or LinkedIn profile and tag Cindy, and we committed to post you.

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00:38:54 Jess: And number three, leave a positive review on Apple podcasts, so we can continue to grow and reach new listeners.

00:39:01 Cindy: And, of course, make sure you subscribe, so you can get the latest and greatest interviews as they drop every Thursday.

00:39:07 Jess: And to our fellow nonprofit coaching and consulting friends, remember, we’re an open book and here to answer your burning biz questions.