Enjoy as you listen to this very inspirational, uplifting, and lighthearted episode with the one and only, Kishshana Palmer as she shares her origins, how she made her business successful,  her journey with how her business grew, evolved… and basically how she started from needing to survive, to being really intentional and thoughtful about what she does!

Tune into this awesome conversation with Jess and Cindy as they have a fun discussion with the best storyteller sharing what business she has today.

Highlights

1. How Kishshana got started consulting and her journey along the way.

2. What are the metrics Kishshana and her team measure and hold value towards?

3. Showing up on stages and selling from the stage became Kishsana’s best asset!

4. Why are you in business? The value of getting really clear on your lifelong goals.

Resources Mentioned In This Episode:

• Kishshana & Co.

Find Us Online:  https://www.confessionswithjessandcindy.com/

Connect with Cindy:

Cindy Wagman Coaching https://cindywagman.com/

The Good Partnership https://www.thegoodpartnership.com/

Connect with Jess: 

Out In the Boons: https://www.outintheboons.me/

Connect with Kishshana Palmer: 

• Kishshana’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kishshanapalmer 

• Kishshana’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kishshanapalmer/ 

• Kishshana’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/kishshanapalmer 

• Kishshana’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kishshanapalmer/?hl=en 

• Kishshana & Co.: https://kishshanaco.com/ 

• Talk to Kishshana: letschat@kishshanaco.com 

TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Jess: Hey, Cindy.

[00:00:01] Cindy: Hey Jess.

[00:00:03] Jess: How excited are you to have the one and only Kishshana Palmer on our podcast?

[00:00:09] Cindy: Oh I know. And honestly, if you are in our sector, there's no way you don't know Kishshana Palmer. And if you don't, you need to go find her online and connect because I feel like she just, I know we've said we are gonna say this multiple times in terms of like crushes. She is ultimately envy and I know that's not a good thing to say, but I definitely feel she's done so many amazing things that I look up to.

[00:00:36] Jess: She's, hands down the best speaker I've ever seen on a stage virtual. I haven't seen her in person because I haven't been in person in a long time.

[00:00:49] Cindy: Yeah.

[00:00:49] Jess: But she's, she is the best at her craft for sure.

[00:00:53] Cindy: Yeah. I aspire. I'm investing in my speaking, just so I can be like her. I'm like can I be you?

[00:01:00] Jess: You can, no, this conversation that we're having is just, really goes back to her origin story and what I loved with what she shared, was her why and her reason, which it's different for all of us. And I think that it's important to hear those stories. Kishshana had kinda has no option in her opinion, to really make her business successful and how to make it successful fast and the journey at which she's taken to build what business she has today was just a really interesting story to hear from the world's best storyteller.

[00:01:36] Cindy: Yes. You can say that again and what I just love about this also is, you've seen her go from needing to survive, to being really intentional and thoughtful about what she does. So that's been shifting her niche, changing what she does, leveling up her skills. And, we know right now she's also thinking about there's no... what do they call it? Precious. This is a word for it. Don't kill the darlings. Like she's, really questioning and evaluating all the things about her business. And is this serving me? Is this serving my clients, is this helping me build the life that I wanna build for myself and my daughter and, like her honesty around that and just the details that she shares. I think. I'm so grateful that she gave us all of this amazing time and insight.

[00:02:31] Jess: Definitely. And she also talks about that. She doesn't do this alone, right? And she talks about how she has a team and what those team members, do, and how that allows her to stay in her zone of genius so that other people can do their zones of genius. And just how that's catapulted her business in a really forward way. And then of course that's how she helps a lot of organizations and her services as well. So of course it's just a big match made of goodness, right up in there. Yeah.

[00:03:01] Cindy: This is such a great episode. For anyone anywhere in their business journey, right? Like she talks about getting started, which again, I think like we all see what we see how people present their origin stories and we look at everyone as, starting their business and they have all their shit together and it's everything's intentional. And I think that Kishshana's really open and just being... this was survival and I got things done, but then over time she learned and grew and her business evolved. And I think, wherever you are on that journey, there is something here for you.

[00:03:40] Jess: Definitely. So without further ado, we don't wanna keep you any longer, enjoy this very inspirational and uplifting and full of humor episode with our friend Kishshana Palmer.

[00:03:55] Hi, we are here with the one, the only, the magnificent Kishshana Palmer, our friend. Hi.

[00:04:02] Kishshana: Hi!

[00:04:02] Jess: Thanks for being here with us.

[00:04:05] Kishshana: Thanks for having me.

[00:04:07] Jess: We're gonna just jump right in. So for the folks listening in, can you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do in your business.

[00:04:16] Kishshana: So this is something so interesting. So for those of y'all who have been trying to figure out, what's your title, I think people really make us wanna reach for it. If you're a multi hyphenate, like I am, actually there's like commas, pluses, and colons, I think, around what I would do, but I would say I am at my core, a relationship expert strategist and coach, because I talk about relationships at work, through building great organizations, building healthy and thriving teams, being a healthy manager leader team member in your organization. And for folks who are building their practices like. Being a healthy human while you do this work. And then I also talk about relationships at home because everywhere you go there you are. And so what does it mean to be leading and building a beautiful thing? That's tough and hard and you still have responsibilities at home. How does that show up? And so what is the, what are the strategies and things you can do? And then how do you do that with like out losing yourself? And so being healthy in your relationship with yourself. And for me, just really thinking about my work and how I do that in that way has been so helpful to encapsulate the who am I and what I do. But I run a leadership development learning company Kishshana & Co and we help everyday leaders live well and lead well through equity and wellness centered retreats and consulting engagements and coaching and training and everything we do is about, leading and managing people and teams and organizations with ease. So that is what I do when I'm not doing that. I'm running my mouth on somebody's stage talking about these topics.

[00:05:55] Cindy: Yeah, you are. But we love watching you on stage and following your business. And I think, you summed it up so nicely at the end of we always ask, what do you actually get paid to do to our guests? Like where do you have a breakdown of kind of, what your... you get paid to speak, you get hired by organizations to work with their leadership. Tell us a little bit about that.

[00:06:20] Kishshana: So my business right now, probably this year, we will cross the, probably like three quarters of a million mark this year. I think we might pull it in Q4 y'all, but that is a prediction. Jesus.

[00:06:31] Cindy: It's gonna happen. It's...

[00:06:32] Kishshana: oh my God.

[00:06:32] Cindy: It's happening.

[00:06:33] Kishshana: Although hilariously. So the upside is I am on salary for my company , which is a gift to be able to pay yourself. The hilarious part is I have missed several payrolls for myself this year because I had surgery and because I had to pay my team members. And so there have been some decisions I've had to make as the CEO of my own company so that I could navigate cash flow and navigate business changes, and business being moved further out. And so I have people hear that number and they're oh my gosh. She's like on her way. Hey, about taxes payroll, contractors stuff. And a couple of clients who are like net 60 at this point, really getting on my nerves. So I actually make less in my salary than I did when I was 30 years old. And I am over 40 a lady of a certain age. And that is a choice, because I'm building, a company. And so it's a gift, but also a choice. And so I spend about 30% of the revenue that comes into my company is from speaking. And so that's keynotes and leading sessions and hosting conferences. And then about 40% of the revenue that comes into the company is from training. And that is either me or two of my team members doing everything from executive leadership trainings, strength finder trainings, retreats off sites, you name it. So that kind of all fits into the like learning experiences bucket also on the training. So we at 70%. Okay. And so then for the remaining 30 is a hodgepodge that changes from year to year. And so this year that a lot of that is gonna come from coaching. In 2021 I actually did a lot less coaching because I had COVID my father BA my stepfather passed away. Like life was different. And so I didn't wanna talk to people. And so this year I've picked that back up. And so I do a lot of... I have two coaches on my staff as well, who do a lot of executive coaching. So that's far exciting. And then I have, courses. And boot camps and stuff that we do that are pretty episodic seasonal if you will. Right now, I'm doing one called Kish camp, which is for stressed out managers who wanna manage and lead better. And we do that summer into right into early falls from camp season, and then we're out of there until the following year. So the that's  where that last 30% of the mix comes from. And it has taken some time. The speaking has been pretty consistent. And I think, I probably got to that percentage in 2019, and we've stayed there and that's just by me, not pushing harder, pitching more that kind of thing. And so I could be half if I tried harder, but my hands are in a lot of things. And so now it's about making decisions about where I wanna spend my time in terms of business development so that my team can actually execute SOR.

[00:09:19] Jess: As someone that's invited you to a stage before. If anyone's listening to this and needs a speaker Kishshana is the best. She is no competition. The best. I will just say that. I just wanna go back. First of all, thank you for being so transparent about the breakdown. I think that not enough people in the nonprofit coaching and consulting space are willing to show their guts as I like to say. And that's, we're all just kinda like bouncing around in our room like trying to figure it out. And so having examples and showing the breakdowns and also being transparent about the fact that yeah, your, revenue is X, but some months you don't make payroll because there's cashflow issues. Like this is the real deal and why Cindy and I wanted to start this podcast when you were talking though, my one thing I was thinking about, at the beginning, you mentioned having a hyphened job title, meaning you do so many things. And my first question, knowing you, because I know you work with both people in the nonprofit space, but you also work with just women in the social impact space. I'm just curious how you decided to serve both audiences, cuz that can also lead to basically running two businesses.

[00:10:33] Kishshana: Exactly. Which is what I essentially do. I was talking to my, CPA the other day because we're looking at projections for next year, which is how I knew I started to make the transition from being a solo practitioner to oh shoot, I'm running a thing. Oh the hell. And so it was about like our holding company and the fact that I actually have actual brands that have teeth and air that are not, me and they stand on their own, what do we do with that? And so I think I. Have said, I might have said it somewhere before, but I did not start my practice because I had some like yearning desire to solve a problem. I got quit fired from an organization. I was sick and tired of the nonsense of being only black woman on an executive leadership team, with helicopter runway and flying 747. And I said to hell, this business, I'm gonna do this stuff myself. And I had a kid underfoot. And so rent was due. My service package was only gonna gimme about four months, and I didn't have a lot of savings. I was a single mom and I was fresh off a divorce, and so my credit was shot. It just was like a hot mess. And I had to basically lemonade the hell out of the, situation that I was in. And so I went, I built a business of what I know how to do. So I still have my book for my first year of fulltime, no net business. So I started Kishshana & Co in 2009. It used to be my, I was married y'all if he ever leaves me. So that was my private school money. That was the stash that you're supposed to have that your mother teach, some mothers teach us about. They're supposed to have separate from your boo. It was all of that. It did all those things until it was my main money. And so when I made the transition to full-time business, I literally was, what do I know how to do? As opposed to the, what I wrote on my first solo retreat every day, which is what I wanted to do, which was talk about my clothes. Y'all know. I talk about that a lot. Talk about fashion, talk about my faith and talk about philanthropy. That was literally all I wanted to do. And I was discouraged because I was coming into the sector and into online entrepreneurship at a time where it wasn't really familiar to our sector and people didn't really understand it, and I didn't understand how to make money as an influencer. And I didn't feel like I had enough space or time or runway, and I definitely didn't have enough cash to just be out here buying stuff and figuring it out. Like I didn't, and if I didn't have the kid underfoot, or if I had some more cushion, whether cushion from a partner cushions from savings or whatever, I probably would've made different decisions, but I think had it. People are like put on a credit card. I ain't have that neither. Like I didn't have none of it. Okay. I done fought my way to my platinum card. And I just want folks to know, like everybody doesn't get to just quit their job and have an amazing client. I really had to work my buns off to get clients. And I'm always amazing. People are like I started my business yesterday and today I have my business and I can handle I'm like what the hell? And so I started, my problem that I wanted to solve was rent and a kid. And so it took me some time to really figure out where am I actually, best of service and where can I have the most impact and what am I most excited about? And even as a Chief Development Officer, over the years, I've always worked for youth serving organizations, and I always cared about women and girls. That's what I do in my free time. Those were the boards I would serve. And so I was since we're here, what we're really not talking about is leadership. So I started there, then I was, man, this is really white male. Damn. I was consulting. And then I was who are the people who are writing about it? It's supposed to be me. What am I supposed to write about this? So I started grappling with those kind of challenges. And then as I started to talk about it, I realized more women who are in the sector across different aspects of the work that we do and where we show up, whether  it’s n talent or in IT working for a tech firm, working for a foundation, working in a nonprofit organization for a consulting practice being on your own. And many of us were having the same challenges. And so that's how I stumbled into that. I didn't actually start making clear decisions about what I want my business to do or be until the pandemic. And it was because I had more work than I could do. And I was I got some decisions to make. Are we gonna be a DEI firm? I was like popular, lucrative. Is that what we really do? It took me some time to dig into the decks that I'd done over the previous seven or eight years to realize, that actually is a part of what we do, but I would not call myself a DEIB or Jedi practitioner per se. So I had to start making some decisions about, what I actually wanted to do. And it still continued to be a pretty clear like fork in the road of different audiences. And it was real tempting and real, like just salivating at the mouth, to do the sexy thing at the time. And I sometimes even wonder right now in my office, did I make the right decision by saying, no thanks. Because I know folks who are really doing all right in the world, so that's how I ended up with two sort of clear businesses and now really working to refine how to serve those two types of clients. And still find joy in my work.

[00:15:18] Cindy: That is such a great sort of journey that I think so many people go on. And again, I feel like you're articulating all of these things that Jess and I hear and talk about amongst ourselves a lot. I really wanna spend a little bit more time on that. I wrote it down. You went from necessity to strategy. And then this undercurrent of like where my best of service. And can you talk to us about the last few years? As you figure out, okay. I'm saying no to things I'm getting really clear on where I serve and how I serve and how I make money and what my life looks like. What are some of the, we've talked offline about some of the opportunities, but also some of the challenges and some of the letting go that has to happen. So can we dive into that? Even more.

[00:16:13] Kishshana: That's some scary waters. Okay. Talk about shark infested water. So number one, I have been the... and if y'all listen, but almost listening, if you don't, haven't heard me say this version before you gotta dig all the way into this podcast, get the transcript. But I have always been the fun popular black girl, right? That is something I had to learn about myself. Like I, show up, and this is who I am every day. But I know I show up for many people who follow me as the friend that they wish they had in college or the friend that they couldn't take home. Cause let's face it. Some of us grew up with some family members that me being at the table would not have been, a palatable experience for anyone. Or you grew up in a much more homogenous community set of friends. And so you didn't know how to broker those relationships, I'm the cool chick, I'm palatable enough that you feel safe over there. And so I had to really come to terms with how I show up externally and then how I show up internally. And those two things were out of alignment. And so what I'm experiencing in this moment in this season is my internal life, coming into alignment with my external life. And it doesn't mean I was being a faker phony. It means that there was a lot of performance that is so deeply embedded in the way women show up at work. And then if you add on the layer of race and then add on the layer of social economic status and education. Yeah. I was out here just to shucking and jiving and didn't even know. Okay. And so I really had to get clear on if nothing else works, will I be happy? Will I be afraid? What kind of example am I setting for my daughter? Like these are the kinds of things that I had to really wrestle with. And then I didn't, I just wasn't happy, like every month was about making our revenue goal, and I was how is this any different in these whack ass fundraising jobs that I had were every month was about the millions of dollars that I had to make sure that I closed. And my staff closed. This is feeling foolish. And so really figuring out who do I actually wanna be around Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday and some Fridays. Daytime afternoon, who I want to call me on weekends. Cause my clients, I don't know. They just they're like hello, SOS. Okay. And then what stages do I wanna be on? Am I just trying to be on this stage? Am I trying to be in the number? I didn't even have goals about what is the outcome I'm seeking? So I'll give you all a really quick example. I was a host for big conference recently that didn't have the budget to pay me or so I thought until I got there and realize the makeup artist got paid more than I did because they were there all day. I know their fee and I was livid. So it wasn't that they didn't have the money to pay me. They must have run outta money, which is fine. Anyway, as I was saying, the check was a check. So I coming into that had to figure out what do I actually really want out of this event for myself? What will success look like for me two weeks out, a month out, six weeks out? What, how can I leverage their audience to get to that outcome? And can I test it to see if it works? And so now my metrics for doing things have shifted. So I've always had it, for example, in my speaking practice, that I do with some certain number of events every year for, a really reduced rate or free. And I say, yes, and before it was this happenstance, you asked me first. I said, yes, first then I ran out quota for the year. What are they trying to do in the world that excites me? Do they have an audience that I really wanna get in front of? Did they help me when I was down and low? Like I have, like in my criteria that may not be somebody else's criteria, but I had to actually create it. And so to your point about going from necessity to strategy, I had to really get clear about what actually matters to me, Kishshana the person. And then what decisions do I need to make for this company so that my vision is clear so that I can inspire others to join me because at this particular juncture, we don't pay as much as we need to because again, back to consistent revenue and can I create the kind of service lines that will both bring me joy that will be able to actually fill a gap in the market. And that is sustainable over. And that is what I am really, finding my way to, I think, with more specificity now

[00:20:22] Jess: I wanna go back to what you were just saying around metrics.

[00:20:25] Kishshana: Sure.

[00:20:25] Jess: Because I think a lot of folks in our space focus on what I've, now come to know as vanity metrics,

[00:20:33] Kishshana: Vanity Metrics,

[00:20:34] Jess: And I'm really curious now, as you've gotten some clarity around what metrics you and your team measure and hold value towards.

[00:20:43] Kishshana: Yep. And so I'll give you a really clear one and so on our website right now, if you go to kishshanaco.com and you go on our whole, our home page for one time, you'll see that there's a video on our page. And the video question asks, how can we help you? And the user experience the customer client journey is that they get to tell me in that video, how they, what they're looking for. And I have videos that guide them through what they need. And then if they're still not at a decision point after that explanation, they can either book a time cuz they're ready and if they're not ready, they can learn more, and I have material for them to do so. I didn't do that kind of stuff even a year ago. So I would get on the phone with every person who had an in inquiry. And even though I had forms that you got you close, looking for strategy, what kind of strategy? Looking for training? What kind of training you want me to speak? What kind of speaker? Now I'm able to see how many people actually touch my site and don't complete it. So hallelujah for the people who don't complete, cuz don't waste my time on telephone, but it allows me to be able to see, are we not seeing enough front that is getting people to the point where they go have to do, leave their name and their email address to talk to me and it's asynchronous and anybody who's had the experience of going all the way through has said, wow, this is a good experience. And so if they don't want to fill out the form, that means they were kicking tires. Great kick rocks. Also, do I have a way to keep them in the tire kicking vicinity of my car lot, but not talking to my sales reps, if that, if so that took for me a metric that we had to come to. How many people come to our site every single month who kick the tires and do not complete. Where did they fall off? What do we say at the fall off point? And do we have a way to go? We saw you fell off, were you just looking or did you, do you guys distract it? Are we now for you? Or maybe you need something else without interacting with us period. So that's something, that's a very concrete thing that I do. A second thing, that's very concrete around, what I'm tracking is, where is business actually coming from. And so I actually don't know if I would count this as referral for both, technically it is. Speaking engagements, get more speaking engagements, training gets more training, long term consulting projects do not get more consulting projects.

[00:23:11] Cindy: Interesting.

[00:23:12] Kishshana: They don't, it's like when y'all have a gala or for us just this conference, you gotta start again. Even if people are super excited and they're super. So think about our folks who have been running galas for years, which is why I hate all special events. I don't hate them, but they're not my favorites because even if you make all the money and people are so excited and the chicken dinner was the best they ever had, and the auctioneer was amazing. The next year you gotta start twerking on the pole for these people. Again.

[00:23:36] Jess: Just quickly. I'm sorry, Cindy, just to just follow up, I'm curious how the, where the place of like email or social, what is your best asset? What's your best selling tool? Is it showing up on stages and selling from the stage? Is it affiliates?

[00:23:50] Kishshana: Yeah. And I don't even sell from the stage. It's just showing up on stages. Okay. Because I would say grew up, but I started my speaking career in fundraising conferences and spaces where they didn't want speakers to sell from the stage. Now I'm not here for that. Like you not paying me enough to not tell these people what they can buy when they leave here. If you don't want me to talk about myself, then you don't need me cause I know how to teach, and so you've gotten the kitty pool, you just kicked and splashed. If you would like to actually jump in and get swim lessons book here, like people should have the option to be able to dig in. You're not paying us enough to just come in and impress you with the information that you could really just Google, because you're looking at me for the way in which I delivered that, and that's what you are paying for. And so I should be able to share that, but I didn't have that level of confidence or track record, or even words when I first started. And email marketing for me has been touch or go touch and go because I did not really know how to use it. And when I wrote ignorant y'all. So one time, I wrote to my list for six or seven months, every Friday, I wrote a note about my week and my life. It had, 60 something to 70% our branch was ridiculous, means almost every person on at that point more than 4,000 person list. Cause I've since cleaned my list, my list is about 2,500 people as of today. Y'all so I'm real transparent on my numbers. Cause I clean that sucker every 90 days. And so at that point a little bit more than 4,000 people, 70% of people are reading it. People ain't buying a damn thing. They just happy to hear the news. What is Kishshana doing this weekend? Where's Kishshana. Where is she speaking at it? What free thing is she gonna give us now? And so I just, I don't know if this is my finest hour, but one week I was you know what? Y'all I quit. I was, I looked at my numbers and I realized that y'all is just happy to hear what is going on in the world. And you don't care nothing about what I have to teach, so I will not be writing to you anymore. Follow me on Instagram. Good night.

[00:25:43] Jess: Okay. We are back for our rapid fire questions. Kishshana. You ready?

[00:25:47] Kishshana: Ready.

[00:25:48] Jess: All right. Question number one. What is the first thing you do in the morning?

[00:25:53] Kishshana: Craig?

[00:25:54] Jess: Who is your favorite coach to work with?

[00:25:59] Kishshana: My coach Charain Jenkins.

[00:26:02] Jess: Perfect. And I know you're a woman out there dating. So what is your ideal perfect date?

[00:26:11] Kishshana: Yes. Okay. I would like to do, beautiful cocktails. Okay. By the water, lovely music, jazz live music, bluegrass R&B is my favorite, just so you know, but as long as it's live and then a wonderful stroll, to me is a, that's how, I'm getting to be a lady of a certain day shell. Okay. And so just a lovely cocktails dinner, good music. For me that is, that is perfection. So I get to wear fancy dresses and beautiful shoes and have awesome company.

[00:26:41] Jess: And then last but not least, because I know that you are a huge fan of strength finders. What are your top five strengths?

[00:26:48] Kishshana: Okay. So strategic is my number one, which means there's always another way. Activator, means get shit done! Can I say that? Can I say that? Okay, good individualization, which means I see the gift and the greatness in every person that I come into contact with. Futuristic is yo, out there is, let me tell you out there is popping. OK. Y'all really need to get where it's at. And relater which for me is, I just want people who are in my polka dot .

[00:27:16] Jess: Love it. Cool. Thanks for playing

[00:27:18] Kishshana: of course.

[00:27:20] Cindy: Oh my goodness. Okay. This is such a perfect leeway into some of the questions that were coming up in my head around all the things you've been saying, and saying, I hear a lot from my, coaching clients is, say no is so hard. And Jess has been a huge champion talking about saying no to free labor for conferences, tech, companies, all of that. I work with people on, how do we turn down work? That's not aligned. So how, and what I love about your approach is what I am sensing from you is say no is about protecting yourself, protecting your time and your soul. So how do you, what advice, would you have to people who are struggling to say no, or to put up those boundaries? So that they don't get sucked into things that, really don't make sense for them.

[00:28:18] Kishshana: I think for me, the thing that I would ask folks to do is to get really clear on why you're in business and you don't have to have no sexy, one liner about who you trying to serve, child, it could be cuz these kids are about to go to college and I'm the only, person's, it doesn't matter what the, it is, but let's be real clear just like our donors can have all manner of reasons for why they give as long as it's not unethical. I don't care nothing about. I'm so happy to know, it's certain man them's days. I'm just, I'm glad, but lemme tell you what, I don't care because your reasons are yours, but be clear about what that is. And then, be really honest with yourself, particularly for our solo practitioners about how you actually get your work done. It wasn't until I went into practice full time that I realized that I am a mediocre deliver of things. Now, granted, my C is a lot of, people's A, here's what I mean by that. I've been an, A student my whole life. Let me tell you what, I don't know how to do study. I've never had to study. I got my MBA in a year. Like I literally am probably one of the smartest people that people will know. And I feel really proud seeing that cause it me a long time to get to a point where I could actually say yo, I'm real smart. And just to your earlier compliment, thank you so much. I am singular on stage. Like it does not get much better than this. Put me with the big dogs and I'm gonna be all right. Okay, no fear. And yet, because I didn't have the discipline of having to be in my books, having to study the Numa flash cards. And I don't have the rigor of putting in the work one step, then two steps, then three steps when the work is boring or hard or not what I wanna do. So what ends up happening, half ass stuff. And so you end up having a lot of things that, because you are a more high caliber operator, people experience as better, but you don't actually have the detailed behind the scenes to get the stuff done. So in setting up the boundaries, et cetera, for yourself, you have got to know how you show up in the world. And if you know that you are slack on details, expense one, you need support. What is the kind of support that's gonna allow you to do the hard things that you need to be able to do? It's not about getting stuff off your plate. It's really having somebody who can help accelerate and activate you. So really knowing how you work. So your why, how you work, where your actual weaknesses are and being able to manage those weaknesses, not try to solve for them. Is really critical to me in being able to start to set up the kind of business that you feel excited about. So I love being in front of teams. I love training. I love being a teacher. I love being a coach. I love it. Put me on stage. Lemme say what I don't love, outlines of my decks. Love to read. Do I wanna retype what I just highlighted and felt really revelatory in this book? Hell no! Can I just say somebody, a snippet of this audio that I heard. Cause that's all I need. So really coming into the ways that you work well and that you work under stress, to me feeling the main feeling innocuous to the way you build a business, but it's super important, particularly as you're building out your practice. And then the last thing I would say is really figuring out. What is the revenue that is necessary to have your business grow? I was talking to my mom the other day, who was a retiree and, widow, and they got their pensions and stuff together. They finding their way on their fixed income and their little investments and stuff like that. And my mom has been a travel agent and a catering. She's always had a side hustle growing up and, she did took this group out. The lady wasn't thinking about when the check was gonna come in for her, her little commission and all this kind of stuff. And she had made some plans and stuff ain't come in. And I had to say, look at here, lady, is this a hobby, a small time side gig, or a business? Cause the way in which you communicate with the vendors and the people who you want to join, you will change depending on that decision. So if you just doing this thing, cause you frustrated with working in an organization, you might have an expensive hobby.

[00:32:16] Jess: Okay. I have two questions back to back after that, because sure. You just said something that I think we cannot just skip over but I want to talk about strength finders, cuz I know you were a huge advocate and as you were talking about all those things, I was she has to have activator up in her.

[00:32:33] Kishshana: Absolutely.

[00:32:33] Jess: Strengths because, so do I and I like no one can move as fast as me, but. Make me do the details and I'd rather die, but I wanna talk about this hobby versus business, thing. And I see so many nonprofit coaches and consultants having this extreme guilt. Even I have a lot of money mindset work that's been done and has yet to be done around charging your worth, covering your costs because we serve this nonprofit client. And I'm just curious if you have any tools or resources or anything you've done to just say, you know what? No, like these are my prices and I'm gonna be unapologetic about them because, this isn't a hobby for me. This is a business.

[00:33:21] Kishshana: Yep. And so  I had to do a proper like prospecting, like what is it gonna take for the life I led? My CPA gave me a challenge last summer and she said, leave me a voice note. I don't care how long it is of the dream life that you want to be able to have. And so mine includes taking care of my mother and my daughter, and being able to travel extensively and have a house on the beach, like it just ain't and a flying car, cause I just want y'all to know I'm really about that life. And these are  the things that I had. So I've named out my daughter's sweet 16, which happened, my mom's about to be 70, my daughter going to college, her having a kid it out prom, have you seen the proms that these young people are doing now? I gotta have a red carpet and something at the house, this is stressful. Okay. I'm a year out. I'm stressed, anyway. So she had me do this whole thing. I narrated for her and she took what I did and she made a financial like plan. So I have a plan that says, in order to make our monthly bills, my mortgage, my office rent, the car note, the business has to make this much to pay me. My contractors end up like literally flat out bare bones, gotta hit it every month. Otherwise people got to go. Then it was like in order to do two thirds of this life that Kishshana wants, we need this, 50% need this. A hundred percent, this house we need to meet. And then I had to prioritize in the like one, half, two thirds portion of the program, what came for a second and third. So just in case, so we know what's the order of priority, the things we need to hit. And then she did it out three or four years. I think it was three years, three years. Yeah. So we have to do it again soon so I can get to the end of the nice, college career. So I love that exercise was both it released me, but it also scared the crap outta me, because let me tell y'all that money was big. Y'all I ain't gonna lie to you. It was like having staff, right? Like I feel really committed to hiring women. I feel very proud of the fact that almost all the vendors I've had since the day I started Kishshana & Co had been... and every kind of contractor, every kind of vendor, even in our retreat experience, everything like I been focused. And so in order to do that you need cash. So then I was if I need to make this much a month in order to be able to make this annual revenue, let me look at my pricing. So then I went and I sat down with a friend of mine. Who's amazing with pricing cause I'm not. And did an actual consulting pricing table. If I outsourced this business to a consultant. For a rate that makes them feel good in their spirits. So right now, if you are a subcontractor for Kishshana & Co for most of the work we do, you make anywhere between 115 and 135 an hour, depending on our client. In order for me to pay a consultant 115 to 135 an hour today, that means I have to charge enough so that I am covering the taxes, the cost of running the business, the systems, the designers that I have to pay to do that work, which means I cannot take on certain types of clients. So then I had to just make decisions about who I serve. And those were hard. So here's how it ended up. So I have tiered services. I serve large matrix organizations, associations, large venture philanthropies, large organizations that have multiple affiliates or they have multiple regions, et cetera. I do not typically work one-on-one with small organizations or startups period, start up nonprofits. So when so to able to serve those folks, you listen to my podcast, you watch my videos, you take my courses. You better join a bootcamp, but I have Kish camp right now. That thing is 697. That is, look that investment point baby for a whole day with me. I'm gonna need y'all to jump on in. So I had to get really clear from what does I want my life to look like? How do I pay equitably to people I wanna work with in order to be able to pay equity? What kind of services do I need to be able to offer? And then what type of client is in the market that will pay for that service at that amount? How do I know? Because I know other consultants who are more established because I go and have exploratory conversations with folks. And because I started just being like the price is the price. And then lastly, that's like the gravy on it. And I think Jess, you do this well with the roller decks, being able to have consultants that I know what they make and what they charge. And I think that in order for us to be able to have a thriving consultant, network and practice people have to get really clear about what they charge. And so how you get to your pricing is how you get to it. But if I know that coaching with me starts at $5,000 a month, which it does today in 2023, it will be increasing significantly. Why because I have, I am now a multidisciplined multi certified coach with more than 10 years of experience at this point. Get it, how you live it. But I also wanna make sure that I know that if this person coaches and I know their investment point is 2,500, or I know this person is 35 and our values align. I don't wanna feel afraid to be able to recommend, another coach who I think would be aligned with what that person is, wanna reach and I can get them into yes. Which is why referrals and referral fees are so important.

[00:38:14] Cindy: Jess and I could literally chat with you forever. And I just wanna reemphasize how much we value your transparency and, just sharing the like thought process behind the numbers, all of that. Again, I think people need to hear so much. And everything you said,

[00:38:33] Jess: I'm yes. Making notes.

[00:38:36] Cindy: But we are running out of time. So I have one last question for you. And this is confession time because this is a podcast about confessions, sometimes we don't always...

[00:38:46] Jess: Wait, you have to, before you go, did you know Cindy didn't know that song? I know. I know. And she's literally a 90s like

[00:38:57] Kishshana: I know!

[00:38:58] Cindy: But this, I looked it up the song's 2004, which is like a little...

[00:39:04] Kishshana: Okay. We gonna let you off the hook. We're gonna let you off the hook. We're gonna let you off the hook.

[00:39:07] Cindy: I'm a little I don't, look if I'm a little old for the song. Yeah, I will. I will. I listened to it. It's just, it's not, I know Usher, obviously anyways, that's all other conversation. Sometimes so yeah, we don't always practice what we preach and so we'd love to hear, and it sounds like you've gone through so much, personal and professional development in your time as a consultant, but what are the things that you're still working on? What are your next priorities for growth and development?

[00:39:40] Kishshana: So for me it is simplifying, right? So a girlfriend of mine called the Killing Your Darlings. And so I have had my hands and everything from an online store to, writing a book that never even made the airwaves, that I need to figure out how to release properly to my podcast that I thought I was taking a week break. It's been a year. Oh my God. And that I now have to relaunch, like it's brand new, like I literally was like Kishshana, you are doing the most. And so how do I. Figure out how to be a thought leader in personality and accept that. Cause that's a part of my brand and it's who I actually am. And then how do I run a successful company that helps everyday leaders lead their organizations better and helps women have the career they love the life they love and be healthy AF like how do I do that in a way that does not have me pulling literally at the seams? And so my next step is to simplify. And so over the next few months, there'll be things that I used to do that just ain't gonna see anymore. I'm gonna just wish I might have to have a retirement party. And I worry about will people see me as a flake? Honestly, you know what? I'm an entrepreneur. Like we grand opening, grand closing. Okay. This is what we do. Like just lean into it. That is who you are. So that's a way in which I'm gonna be growing professionally. The second thing is in really, thinking about who I wanna be in this next iteration. So something that gave me a lot of confidence the other day is I know actually a number of entrepreneurs who have full-time jobs and are running companies, and I've gone in and out of being in house several times over the last six years and really enjoyed my time in house, and so have been thinking a lot about going back in house again, I don't wanna go back in house as a fundraiser, necessarily, but I am a senior level executive. And so how does that show up for an organization, a foundation, et cetera, who I wanna do that? So thinking about that. So giving myself room to think about differences. And I remember years ago when I was eating trained, by board source to be a governance trainer. One of the trainers said to me that day, cuz she'd been a consultant for Audi years, 30 years at that point, she said some years I'm here at the university and I don't consult, in some years. I'm only consulting and some years I do both and it's totally okay to do all of those things and you don't have to be apologetic to a soul. And that is what I am recapturing in this next phase of development because I want to be a multimillion dollar firm. I want to have one rather, but I also wanna have a managing director who runs that thing every day and it is not me. I'm working on TV shows and other types of content and brand partnerships. And I wanna be able to be released to do those things and have a thriving company that I care about that I love, and I feel proud of, that really serves our sector. So those are the things that for me are next. And that's what that's what I have on mine.

[00:42:27] Jess: You're amazing.

[00:42:28] Cindy: Amazing. And I just wanna leave people with that statement of it's all gonna be okay.

[00:42:33] Jess: And you're allowed to change your mind.

[00:42:36] Cindy: Yeah.

[00:42:36] Kishshana: Allow to change.

[00:42:37] Cindy: This episode, people need to listen to multiple times. It's so good. Kishshana, where can our listeners connect with you? Drop that website for us again, and thank you for being on the podcast.

[00:42:49] Kishshana: Absolutely. So there's gonna be two ways you can get a connect with me. If you're thinking about like Kishshana, I just wanna do a deep dive strategy session with you so I can figure out how to do my business. In a way that feels healthy and purposeful to me, then book a VIP day with me. You can do that right on kishshanapalmer.com or kishshanaco.com so my company's side of my personal site will get you to what you need. You can follow me across all social media @kishshanapalmer and fun fact, Google will in fact correct my name if you misspell it. So if you leave off an sh it'll say, hello, did you mean Kishshana to SH’s? That's me. And please make that...

[00:43:24] Cindy: You made it! That is the pinnacle of success.

[00:43:31] Kishshana: Forget that damn blue check, Google corrects my name. And feel free to connect with me. And if you are, I need a reset before I step into a powerful Q3 Q4, then join me at the Rooted Retreat in Jamaica, which is open to consultants, it's open to for women and non-binary folk. And, we are excited to be able to take about a hundred folks with us to go and really think about what it means to be next. I don't know if we're gonna get to a hundred, that's my goal, but we're inching our way there. And so I want folks to be able to sign up for the rootedretreat.com and join us September 29th through October 2nd in Jamaica.

[00:44:07] Jess: It's gonna be a blast. Thank you so much for your time, your transparency and just your friendship. Thank you for saying yes

[00:44:16] Kishshana: To always having your friendship is just such a gift and is needed to be a successful business owner and entrepreneur. Yes, you're right. All right. Thank you so much. Bye.