“To me, boundaries can feel rigid, unmovable, and sometimes even negative, especially on the receiving end. That’s why I prefer to think of them as riverbanks. Riverbanks hold the water in and guide its flow, but they aren’t fixed—they shift and change direction over time. This visual feels more aligned with how I approach my work and relationships. If the water spills over the riverbanks, it creates a mess and floods. But if the riverbanks stay upright and steady, they keep everything flowing smoothly.” - Naomi Hattaway

Stop Doing Work You Hate: A Real Talk About Boundaries, Reputation, and Growing Your Consulting Practice with Naomi Hattaway

Ever find yourself in the middle of a client project thinking "How did I end up here?" In this candid conversation, nonprofit transition specialist Naomi Hattaway shares how she learned to stop taking on work that drained her energy and started building a practice true to her expertise. From setting "riverbank boundaries" that protect your time while maintaining flexibility, to transforming her communication style with 20-minute meetings and voice messages, Naomi offers practical strategies for consultants ready to level up their business boundaries. Plus, she opens up about her journey to finally paying herself formally after 10 years in business, driven by a powerful personal mission.

If you've ever struggled with saying no to work outside your zone of genius or worried about damaging relationships by setting limits, this episode is your permission slip to reshape your consulting practice. Learn why your reputation isn't built on saying yes to everything, but rather on being known for specific, high-value work that energizes you. Naomi shares actionable examples of how to communicate boundaries professionally, refer work strategically, and build a business that serves both you and your clients better.

Highlights:

• Define Your Lane Clearly Your reputation grows stronger when you're known for specific, focused work rather than trying to be everything to everyone

• Set "Riverbank" Boundaries Think of boundaries like riverbanks—firm enough to keep things flowing but flexible enough to adapt naturally

• Communicate Limits Upfront From 20-minute meetings to asynchronous communication, set expectations early about how you work best

• Make Strategic Referrals Build relationships with other consultants who can handle work outside your zone of genius

• Protect Your Reputation Be intentional about which projects you take on—they shape how others talk about your work

Timestamp summary: 

• [00:03:00] - Naomi introduces herself and her unique niche: helping Executive Directors transition out of their roles.

• [00:05:00] - Why framing her work as “helping people leave” is both intriguing and effective.

• [00:06:00] - The shift from working directly with EDs to partnering with nonprofit boards and organizations.

• [00:08:00] - Common scenarios where she’s brought in: resignations, terminations, and unplanned transitions.

• [00:09:00] - The challenges of late-stage interventions and why succession planning needs to happen early.

• [00:10:00] - Why staying in her lane and referring out work has been key to maintaining boundaries and reputation.

• [00:12:00] - Naomi’s lessons on avoiding “therapeutic” consulting and sticking to her zone of genius.

• [00:14:00] - How Naomi uses “riverbanks” as a metaphor for setting flexible but firm boundaries with clients.

• [00:16:00] - The power of asynchronous tools like WhatsApp to manage client relationships without burnout.

• [00:18:00] - How generosity and intentional networking have enhanced her professional reputation.

• [00:22:00] - Why reputation is about values and impact, not trying to control what people think of you.

• [00:24:00] - Naomi’s focus on equitable transitions, particularly for diverse leaders stepping into founder-led roles.

• [00:28:00] - The importance of using curiosity and kindness to build authentic relationships and referrals.

• [00:33:00] - A winning business development strategy: combining travel with targeted local outreach.

• [00:37:00] - Naomi’s confession

Find Us Online:  https://www.confessionswithjessandcindy.com/

Connect with Naomi:  

Naomi’s Website:https://www.naomihattaway.com/ 

LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/naomihattaway 

Podcast: https://www.naomihattaway.com/podcast 

Connect with Cindy:

Cindy Wagman Coaching https://cindywagman.com/

The Good Partnership https://www.thegoodpartnership.com/

Connect with Jess: 

Out In the Boons: https://www.outintheboons.me

Transcript:

[00:07:01] Come out of their own personal pocket. And I also didn't love that. And so about two years ago, oh, a year and a half ago, I switched to the organization. So my marketing like statement is still a little, it doesn't really, match what I do now. and maybe that's a good sign to, to change that and adjust that.

[00:07:19] But yeah, that would be my answer. Yeah, and I mean, I think it's such an interesting, maybe just tell us a little bit about, working with. The organization, when they bring you in, is it almost like too late or do you miss anything in that transition period? Or does an executive director actually like signal to and start bringing you on as they're giving notice?

[00:07:52] Well, you know, and you all know this and the listener knows this too, like every nonprofit is different. So in one nonprofit, a board chair might have a really great relationship [00:08:00] with the executive director. And so they might be working in tandem to do some of these things. In other nonprofits, the board chair is completely not engaged at all.

[00:08:07] The ED is the one running the show. And so it just depends on the organization. What I will say is that a lot of times I get called, by a panicked board chair. Who is we just got noticed that our ed resigned or we need to terminate them. Or there's a long term disability, a sickness, or in one recent experience, I had the ed died suddenly and they weren't planning for that.

[00:08:28] And so they had no succession plan, nothing in place. So that's it's not a too late scenario in that regard. What does feel sometimes like too late. And I wish that like organizations would just be more proactive is Let's first just say the reality is that people leave. People leave all the time.

[00:08:44] They're either leaving or they're thinking about it. And so every organization really should use services like what I offer. when it feels like it's too late is when there's already a huge erosion of trust and when teams are starting to freak out, when the ED has separated from their [00:09:00] relationship with the board because of, you know, not knowing how to navigate all of this, that feels messy.

[00:09:04] And then I often will just, I've got a couple of conflict resolution experts that I'll actually refer them to because I don't do that work. that's, I've learned my lesson on that. Fair enough. Yeah. And I want to say, like, we all know what lanes we're in, right? Conflict resolution's next level. Well, but I would say, I mean, I think there's a lot of consultants who might know the lane, but then they still take jobs that aren't in their lane.

[00:09:28] Good point. Good point. Yes. And I think that is That's a big problem. Let's talk about that for a little bit. But it's hard because there's scarcity. Yeah, so talk to us about your journey in saying no to the things, even though it was like, potentially right there in front of your, like right there in front of you, where you're like, oh, I could get paid for that right away.

[00:09:51] Easy. Well, I mean, I think you both are such good examples of how to navigate this in a way that still addresses our need to make money. I mean, that's what [00:10:00] we're all in business for ourselves for is either. to not have to be in the confines of an employee, but also to make money. And so using the referral concept, really goes a long way.

[00:10:08] I, I started out my business as a real estate agent. And so it's very common with realtors to stay in their lane and then refer everybody else out because you get 25 percent of the commission that you've sent on. So it's no brainer. And we all did that. And it's like, Oh, we need to borrow that mentality of stay in your lane and refer everything else out.

[00:10:29] but I, I learned the hard way. I mean, I've done way too many, moments where I've said yes to things. And then I immediately I'm like, I shouldn't have done this. It would have been so much better. Referral fee or not, it would have been better to send them on their way. And I think, you know, someone in the, Building Better Together community talked about the stair steps of who does the work on the steps below you?

[00:10:49] And who does the work on the steps or the rungs of the ladder above? And that was such a helpful exercise to really lay it out. who do I need to know? Because then you can proactively also go out and find those people, [00:11:00] which if you have people that you trust to refer to, it makes it easier to say no.

[00:11:04] Yeah. In the moment, I think that's not what you asked Cindy. What were you what you asked me? No, I mean like your own journey to figuring that out, but I think that that's That's a good answer too. So I mean, if you want to tell us this, give us the juicy story, you can, but you don't have to. I'll give you one example.

[00:11:22] and the reason why I shifted away from individuals, it became really close to therapy that the individuals actually needed. They didn't need the resources and expertise I had. They wanted someone to listen and they wanted someone to be able to hold space for that. And that wasn't, that's not my zone of genius.

[00:11:39] Another example would be that conflict resolution where it was like, Oh, this is hella messy. and I'm actually eroding my own reputation the longer I stay in this kind of a work. The other thing I'll say about reputation and the reason why you should refer out stuff that's not in your lane. I've had clients talk publicly about the work that we've done [00:12:00] together and I'm like, Oh, I don't want that out.

[00:12:02] that's not the work that I do. And so that's another good reason that if you are, if you spread too. Far outside of your zone or your lane, then you, you end up muddling what people know you for as other people talk about your work. So I think that's another good reason and I'll stop talking about that.

[00:12:21] No, that's so good. And as you were just answering, that was like I, that was my question was about therapy and how so many clients. they don't even know they're doing it. I mean, it's, it's actually happening with one of my clients right now, who's having some internal conflict between herself, who's the CEO and her, you know, director of Marcoms or whatever her title is.

[00:12:44] And, and I'm the one in the middle, right. And so one thing that I'm thinking of is like. Running a business in general, I say this a lot is just like already such a game of mental gymnastics and energy. And I think a lot of us really underestimate the [00:13:00] amount of time we just need to sit and think versus produce.

[00:13:03] and I'm just like, if you've learned anything along the way around boundaries, like a, how do you identify it? Because if you're like me, you're like. Not really realizing it's happening until you're literally doing this podcast recording with you right now. It's it's right in front of my face. and then two, like, how do you redirect?

[00:13:23] and, and I say this under the umbrella of knowing that we all So many of us nonprofit consultants, myself included, are already not great at saying no. Yeah. So I think that I, I mean, I always say Prentice Hemphill's quote around boundaries, that boundaries are the distance at which I can love both you and me simultaneously.

[00:13:44] their work is so great around boundaries. And then I also add a secondary thing that I love calling them riverbanks. Boundaries to me feels really rigid and it feels, they feel unmovable or they feel. not so great on the receiving end. And so riverbanks, if you think about the concept that it keeps [00:14:00] the water in, but it's the riverbanks move all the time.

[00:14:03] The, the direction and the place that river flows change. and I think the riverbanks also feels a little bit more visual. if the water spills over the top, it's like it makes a mess. It floods. if you can keep them straight up and down. your riverbanks, which then I also attached values a lot of times to my riverbanks.

[00:14:21] So what I would recommend or what I do for myself is that when I start to feel, and I think in our bodies, we feel when our boundaries are being tested or when we're letting our boundaries seep or a riverbank seep. one of the things that I do for myself is just to name it with my clients. Going back to our scope, thinking about my own personal values for my business and the way that I work, I'm noticing that I'm allowing there to be some seepage.

[00:14:44] And so I'm wondering if we can insert whatever it might be. I also tend to like boundaries around 20 minute or 40 minute meetings. So my clients are very accustomed to me only doing that. And I will again, name it, I will only schedule 20 and 40 minute meetings [00:15:00] so that I have enough time in between For context shifting, to go to the bathroom, to get water, and so that you do also, no one has ever pushed back on that and we get all of our work done in 20 minutes or 40 minutes.

[00:15:11] And then I've also recently, one of the things that helps with my boundaries is, doing WhatsApp or Voxer with, folks instead of being on Zooms. I say that it's for their benefit. I'm like, you all have spent way too much time by the end of the week on a Zoom call. Let's do WhatsApp. It helps me think.

[00:15:29] Through my answers instead of having to have something immediately and oftentimes as they hear themselves talk They'll say you know what never mind. I figured it out. I'm like good. That's exactly what we needed So I think that there's just space that we need to spend more time Like you said just like we don't have enough time to just sit and think but we do we have to we have to take more time to realize What's the way that I work best and then delivering that to our clients.

[00:15:53] They, they don't know, we need, we need, they need us, I think, to tell them the way that we work. And then I think they'll [00:16:00] kind of come to you and respond appropriately. I, so I have so many thoughts, but I just want to, for a minute, reemphasize, I guess the idea of that asynchronous support. So I have a group program, which.

[00:16:16] You, if you, if anyone's listened to this podcast before, you know, I don't always encourage that for everyone, but it works for my business and where we are now. And, I don't do one on one calls with people. There's like a bonus one on one call every now and then, but I just, I just can't. So because I have 45 people in the program, that would eat up all my time.

[00:16:35] So I've had people ask, and I just say, I use Slack instead of Fox or WhatsApp, but you know, I use the voice message all the time. And I'll say we can talk here. I'm just not going to respond right away. And you don't need to respond right away. so I love, love, love that advice. And I've also been that person on the other side where I've had the epiphany as I've been talking where I'm like, Oh, wait a [00:17:00] second.

[00:17:00] I just answered my own questions. So I think there's so much value in this idea that we're not on call. Especially in a sector where we've been trained to drop everything for all the emergencies and everything's an emergency. So I love, love, love that you do that. Well, and I think it's also a gift to other consultants.

[00:17:21] Like if we're not the only consultants an organization will ever work with. For and so it's a gift to also kind of prep what they might do in the future. I mean, who knows another nonprofit in the future might say to a future consultant, you know, like we only do 20 minute meetings and that would be such a huge gift to the consultant.

[00:17:37] So I think if we women anyway, I think are so prone to think that we're being selfish for wanting to lay down boundaries, but if we think about it in that way, instead, like I'm doing this as a gift for all of my future consultants or the future consultants at that org, that might help us think about it in a little different way.

[00:17:54]

[00:17:59] [00:18:00] All right, Naomi, we are back for another round of our rapid fire questions. You ready? I'm ready. I think. Okay, let's do it. You mentioned on the podcast that you are a big fan of earrings. What is your favorite pair? Oh, that's not fair. I, I, I don't have a favorite pair, but I will say that my favorites right now are anything with hooks because I have big over the ear headphones when I travel for work.

[00:18:26] I notice that I need to know that people, like I need people to know that I'm not Available to chit chat with, but I, the other thing I'll say is that my favorites are things that have been homemade or that are produced by a small business owner. I very rarely buy earrings from a store. It's always from a small, independent.

[00:18:43] Oh my gosh. Okay. Love that. and for those who can't see, there are these long, beautiful dangling, are they glass flowers? They're plastic. And if you think about like your grandmother's, candy dish, they Grandma's candy dish. Yes, yes, [00:19:00] yes, they're beautiful. Okay, next question. So in this conversation, you've mentioned like many professional lives.

[00:19:08] Besides your current job, what is the best job you've ever had? The best job I've ever had was working as a lunch lady at an area high school. And the reason why it was so fabulous was because my son went to the same school. So anytime there was a snow day, I got to have off with him. I got summers off.

[00:19:28] and I was off by the time he was done with school so I could pick him up. So that was probably the best. And the woman that I worked with, she was the baker at the cafeteria introducing, introduced me to my husband. So that was probably the best job. Oh my gosh. Air net and all. And last question. I see a ton of books behind you.

[00:19:48] So my question for you is which is the best non business book you've read in 2024?

[00:19:59] There's, [00:20:00] there's two. one of them is Hood Wellness, by Tamela J. Gordon. And the other one is, How we heal. Is that the word, the name of Prentice Hemphill's book? Heal Your Way Forward. I'm not sure the title, but it's the amazing book on healing by Prentice Hemphill. Those are the probably the two favorite non non business books.

[00:20:20] Amazing. Thank you for playing. Thank you.

[00:20:24]

[00:20:28] Okay, that kind of brings me to the other question. I feel like there's a bit of a string between what you just said and the question I wanted to ask as well, which is, you mentioned that people talk about your work and I want to talk a little bit about reputation because to me, how you work with clients.

[00:20:46] And what they remember and how they take that and work with other consultants or other people in the future is a bit of your reputation as well. So they connect, right? connection, but let's talk a little bit about that because it [00:21:00] is, Whether we know it or not, whether they say it publicly or not, people will talk about our work for better or for worse.

[00:21:09] And I'd love to hear from you a little bit about how you had that sort of epiphany and how you think about that going forward. Where else does it affect your decisions in your business? Yeah, that's a good question. I think for my work, and maybe it's similar to Someone listening is that no one really wants to talk about the fact that they're having a messy transition.

[00:21:33] So I don't have a lot of public shout outs. No one's on LinkedIn saying and tagging me and saying, Oh my gosh, we just worked with Naomi Hathaway for a really effed up messy transition. And she was great. no one's doing that. How I know that people are talking about my work is because I'm getting referrals or I'll get an email or a DM that says so and so, or sometimes I don't even say who I heard about the work that you did with a recent client.

[00:21:55] And we are in the same position and we'd like to talk where I think it's been [00:22:00] interesting is that I, I send it an offboarding survey to all of my clients. And one of the things I say is you may not want to talk about this publicly, but I need to hear from you what we need to change in the future, what you really appreciated, what have you.

[00:22:11] And that has helped me. Immensely understand the journey that I needed to shift with my clients as well. but I, I think that I had about a year and a half or two years ago, actually it was two years ago. Cause I read, so I ran for, city council in Nebraska and I realized during that experience that I had to decide whether I wanted my reputation to be attached to my name and the work that I did.

[00:22:35] and how to navigate all of that, because I can only do so much to be out in the public, and I can also only have so much control over what people think of me. I can control the impact I deliver, I can control how I talk about it, but that's about it. there's a really amazing human named Afrika Brooke, and she spells her last name with an E, and she wrote a book called The Third Perspective.

[00:22:55] And it's awesome. It's a lot about like courageous detachment from your [00:23:00] legacy and your reputation and living courageously and making decisions that might mess up your reputation. I think in terms of being a consultant, it's our bread and butter, right? Having referrals or having someone speak highly of our work.

[00:23:14] And so it's, it gets a little bit wonky when we could get a little bit too tight up though in that, and not taking courageous steps. One of the things that I have recently decided to start. Focusing on is transitions that are specifically from a white male founder to a black or brown woman or, non binary person as their successor, because that's a very unique space that I, as a black mixed race woman can speak to that other people might not be able to.

[00:23:42] When I start. Leaning into that my reputation is going to shift the way that people think of me and my work is going to shift, but it's important to me to be very aligned with my values, which accountability is one of them. And so I think in terms of reputation, like you have to figure out what your riverbanks are.

[00:23:59] What your [00:24:00] values are and then let that inform how attached you are to your legacy or your reputation. I also think that like we're just here for a small bit of time, you know, if I'm taking care of myself and my littles, well, they're not littles anymore, but my kids and the people in my home, the rest of it.

[00:24:16] I really want to live the second half of my life with more courage, which then means I can't care as much about my reputation. One thing I just have to, give you flowers for, Naomi, and this is just something I've observed is, in Building Butter Together or on LinkedIn, as far as your reputation goes is, is, is your generosity.

[00:24:37] And, and I'm using this as an example for folks listening because I think that your reputation precedes you. Your work and the quality of your work. Like you're, you're very encouraging. You are always up for a connective, like in depth conversation with people. You're very generous with your engagement, of people's [00:25:00] questions or celebrations and.

[00:25:04] And I'll just say like from, you know, we have just gotten to know each other. We're, we're new colleagues, but like the fact that I already know that about you with never meeting you in person, never having a one on one phone call with you. I think you put in the effort and the work, and I want people to hear that because, a lot of people will reach out specifically to me, I'll just use myself and it just immediately feels transactional.

[00:25:27] It's I know you're reaching out to me because you know that I have a platform of X number of thousands of fundraisers and you're hoping that by having this one call, I'm going to now suddenly send business your way. And that's not how it goes. That's not how it works. And and you're not the only one.

[00:25:44] Frankly, who is doing that kind of transactional quote unquote, networking and and you're like the opposite. And so for folks listening,that's probably just who you are. And that's amazing. But I am curious, [00:26:00] that also takes time. And I'm wondering if you're thoughtful about weaving that into your calendar, your schedule.

[00:26:07] Or if it's just ad hoc, and maybe for someone's listening who's damn, maybe I am like that transactional person and I don't want to be like, I don't know that it's done on purpose. People are just busy and moving at a pace that's like hard to keep up with. do you have any advice for folks who maybe are trying to spread their reputation beyond just the quality of their work and, and through the relationships that they're building?

[00:26:34] Yeah, that's a good, that's a good question. So I think I'll thank you, first of all, for what you said. That's very, very kind and warmed my heart. I think it goes back to values. And I think I would encourage folks that are questioning that to check in with their own values first. One of my values is kindness.

[00:26:51] And so that has to lead with everything, which is part of probably I'm guessing just what you're seeing is my,deference or deference. I guess I should say it [00:27:00] that way. to kindness first. So my 20 minute, my 40 minute meetings are out of kindness for myself and for the other person on the call, naming it goes a long way.

[00:27:09] So maybe you're, maybe you're listening and you're, you're, one of your values is, joy. So then when you reach out to someone, you can say one of my values is joy. And I'm really trying to have that be the core and the foundation of everything I do. So I'm curious as I check in with you. What's something that's brought you joy this week?

[00:27:27] And then you can go on to be a little more transactional. Like it's, I think you can do it in little ways. So maybe, I don't know, do you, do either of you have a value that I could use as an example? Well, I don't know if this is a value, but what I just wrote down as you were talking about, I know one for Cindy, I don't want to speak for you, Cindy, but I am going to say curiosity is one for Cindy.

[00:27:44] and one thing that I, just wrote down as you were speaking is say the nice thing out loud. like I'm such a proponent of that. and I try to do that. Throughout every single day. So, I don't know if you can use either of those. Yeah, that's a good example. So, say you're going to use, you're going to [00:28:00] go into LinkedIn.

[00:28:00] So, I just had this happen yesterday. Well, I'll give you two examples. One person who I have not talked with in probably ten years. I used to run an online community for folks that lived outside of their passport country. It was very large, it was very well known, and I shut it down. Long story that we don't need to get into, but someone from that community who I haven't talked with in years reached out because she has a new book.

[00:28:23] She wants to promote it and she wants to know where the community went. And so I explained, I sunset the community. Her response was so off putting. She was like, why did you do that? There's so many, there were so many good things that happened from it, and so I didn't even respond to it. But imagine what she, if she had had curiosity as one of her values, and what if she had responded and said, I think of you all the time, like I think of how incredible it was that you started this, this group, how incredible it was that you didn't, Forever without getting paid, and I noticed that it's not in existence anymore.

[00:28:54] And I'm wondering if there was anything that you learned from that. I mean, there's just so many different ways. She could have started that conversation. Another [00:29:00] woman who I've only had two calls with reached out because she has a new course that she's promoting. And I'm thinking about say the nice thing out loud, like in both of those examples, instead of launching into what it is that you want from that person, start with what your value is.

[00:29:12] Start with saying the nice thing out loud. Start with going from curiosity. I think that just. Reminding ourselves of being like human again would go a long ways. and I think that if you are feeling like you're listening and you're like, Oh, I am that transactional person. You don't have to do it in a broad umbrella, pick two people that you want to build a relationship with, or that you want to reach out to, and then just make it a little bit longer of a disc of a, A journey.

[00:29:40] Don't reach out today. Ask them just, you know, maybe you send them something or a book that made them made you think of them or something. I just think we need to be a little bit slower when we think about our connection efforts. I just had this conversation with one of my clients because she was feeling frustrated about her networking and feeling like her network, she'd [00:30:00] tapped it out almost.

[00:30:01] And literally the advice I gave to her, which is kind of what you just said, in a different way is, Your goal in building your professional like consulting network or just your network as a consultant is not a volume game. You don't want everyone to know who you are. You want to have people who, I hate, I kind of cringe when I said this, but like your business besties.

[00:30:26] Like the people who are thinking of you all the time, not just the people who are thinking about you when you send them an email or you're having a meeting, right? The people where you're top of mind all the time. And that speaks to what you just talked about in terms of it's a slower, longer relationship.

[00:30:48] But it's much more meaningful and honestly networking just to get in front of numbers and people who are representative of numbers, like that doesn't work. That's not [00:31:00] where people are going to Show up for you. They're going to show up because you show up for them because you've built a relationship over time because you're in community with people like, you know, justice can be like all these places where we're in community and we think of each other because we know each other.

[00:31:21] Yeah. Well, and I think it goes back to then, what is it that you do? If it's easy for someone to say, oh yeah, Naomi is the one that helps organizations through messy transitions. That's a lot better than you know, I'm not sure what she does, but I really like her. so you have to always weave in two really specific ways that people can make it easy for them to refer you.

[00:31:40] I recently added to my email signature line, cause it used to just be like my website link, my LinkedIn link, and my podcast link. Okay. I now have a little blurb that says the thing I love more than earrings, which people who know me well know that I'm obsessed with earrings, is referrals. Who do you know that could use blah blah blah?

[00:31:58] It goes, it's on every email I send out. [00:32:00] It makes it much easier for people to connect Naomi with, What I do. And I think that's important too, for people that are listening. It's make it easy for people to refer you. Okay. So I think in a roundabout way, we've been talking about like really referral marketing.

[00:32:16] And I'd love to just call that out because I think it's so important because oftentimes we think these things are way more complicated than they are. And let's just, so we've talked about your reputation, the quality of your work, I think is the number one thing for when it comes to getting business from, from your network.

[00:32:37] Deep relationships instead of broad, shallow ones. and then asking for the business, right? letting people know, be clear about what you do and how you help and putting it out there. I'd love to talk a little bit more about that last one of asking, and do you do anything else to sort of, I, I usually call it call in the business, [00:33:00] like call in those referrals.

[00:33:01] Is there anything else you do proactively? So I've tested this a couple of times and it's worked both times. So I think it's like, it's like good enough to share. and I would love to know if people do this because it worked so smoothly. So I have a couple, we move a lot. And so I've got locations where I have people, you know, that are kind of like a, a core group of humans.

[00:33:20] And I had a client. pay me to come to a location to do some on site work. I, from my business standpoint, paid to extend that. So they paid a part of the flight. They paid for a part of the accommodations. My business paid for the rest of it. I sent an email out to everyone that I knew in that location to say, here's the six things I'm really excited about working on right now.

[00:33:41] And I'm guessing one of these is a miss or a gap in your organization. Here's my calendar. Let's figure out time. I'd love to slot you in and talk about pricing. And I had a great response from that. And so I filled up my calendar and made a really good amount of money in a week's time by just sending out a thing to say, do you need, do you have a succession plan?

[00:33:59] You know, [00:34:00] no one has a succession plan. So like I knew going in that I was asking them for things that were a gap instead of just being like, here's my services. Do any of them spark? Joy for you. No, they're not going to spark joy. But if I said, you don't have a succession plan and I know it, you also have a board development process that you probably don't have onboarding or offboarding done.

[00:34:18] I just kind of named my things. And then the other thing that I loved, that worked really well was I said, it could either be a workshop where I just present to your people. It could be an all day retreat. Or it could just be you and I meeting to flesh out what this looks like for working together next year.

[00:34:34] So I, I'm going to do more of that and then, see if it continues to be a win, but that's one call in for business that has really worked well. I love that so much. And I want to break it down because as you were talking, I had a question and then you kind of answered it. So you basically said, I'm going to be here.

[00:34:52] physically in your neck of the woods. Before I'm there, let's hop on a call so that while I'm there, I can help you. [00:35:00] Is that fair? Nope. I didn't do that. Okay. You said let's meet. When I'm in, when I'm in person? Yeah, so it was, here's the things that I can offer, if any of this seems like you would need it.

[00:35:12] But see, I think that the trick here is that there's already a relationship with the people. They already know. It's not a cold call. Which, maybe you'd have to do a call, maybe, if they didn't already know your work. Yeah, so, but, so, okay, basically skip the call, which is basic and call or no call. So I'm going to be here.

[00:35:31] I have time for workshops, retreats, and just one on one meetings. Let's fill my schedule while I'm in town. And those are paid. Yeah, obviously, but the meeting to discuss future work. I did not charge for that. That was like a biz dev thing. It was like, let's meet over coffee or lunch and let's talk about what these things are that you might need in 2025.

[00:35:53] It wasn't a catch up call though. It was very much focused on and then also to do budget alignment was the other part of the, that [00:36:00] meeting was like, let's figure out what you need to put in your budget for next year to do this work. Ooh, I like that. Because they don't know. Often they don't know.

[00:36:10] They don't. They have no idea. So let's, before we get into confessions, I do want to, let's just talk about this for another minute because So often I hear from consultants, terrified to ask about money, terrified to say, what budget do you have? And I love that you're even having that conversation about well, maybe not now, but what does it look like in the future?

[00:36:36] Where we're open and transparent and talking about money and how much things cost. So, What other areas do you build that sort of transparency or, you know, open conversations about money into your business development process? That's a good question. So I earlier this year put my prices on my website.

[00:36:54] I also on a regular basis, tell my clients that I'm raising rates. So if you want to get anything [00:37:00] done before I raise my rates, let me know. I also, early on in the conversation, so if someone's referred to me or if someone lands on my website and they come to me, one of the first things we're talking about is budget, you know, a lot of times, especially, I think organizations come to me when they're kind of in crisis or firefighting mode, and they might feel a little bit more, there's more urgency, which then sometimes Translates to more willing to pay for something, so it might not be the same for every consultant, but part of it goes back to giving our giving future consultants a gift of the 20 and 40 minute meeting give other consultants who will come across this nonprofit organization.

[00:37:37] The gift of talking about money transparently, I think what I have happened all the time is that eds are kind of or board chairs are kind of put off by my frankness about money. But then once they are like and I'll say like this is this is as important talking about the budget that you have as the work that we're going to do because it's Like part and parcel and it comes before the [00:38:00] proposal.

[00:38:00] there's a woman named Alison Davis. I don't know if either of you are familiar with Alison's work. She hosts monthly sales round tables, and I've learned a lot from her about how to get to the budget conversation without freaking them out. She calls them fingerprint meetings where you're like, I want to understand and get like a finger on the pulse of what you need.

[00:38:20] And they almost co create the conversation with you. a lot of times I know consultants. Some are very savvy about if they don't have a budget, you say, well, where else do you have budget line items? Like depending on the work, is it, is there a marketing budget you haven't spent yet? Is there professional development budget you haven't spent yet?

[00:38:37] and that seems to always get EDs and board chairs like, Oh, you're right. Like it's not personal to them. It's not their money. Like they need to have money that's spent in bequest and behalf of the organization. So it's in their best interest too, to come. Really transparently to the conversation about money, and I think, you know, I would encourage someone who's [00:39:00] listening who's had not such a great experience with the budget conversation practice having the conversation that says, if we were to work together next year, let me let you know what kind of a budget you'd need to have in mind because that takes kind of the sting out of it.

[00:39:13] and it doesn't have to be a closed door. Such, such good advice. I love that.all right, for everyone's favorite question, please share with us a confession. My confession is that I have been in business for myself for 10 years and this is the first year that I'm actually like formally and in an organized way paying myself.

[00:39:37] Amazing. Love. Congratulations. Thank you. I mean, I've always done it in ways that, it parceled out, but not in a very, structured way, and so it finally feels like I grew up and I have my big girl panties on. What's changed? What's different? I think what changed was my why. I have, I am married to a man who [00:40:00] has been a hardworking contributor and supporter of our family.

[00:40:03] Where I had the benefit of if I wanted to work kind of a thing for a long time and he just turned 60 last week and we are building a house out in the woods and we have kids in college. there's all these expenses and I'm like the biggest desire. In my heart is that he can retire sooner than later and just, if he wants to still work great, but I want him to be able to have the joy and the ease that I've had along the way of like work, if you want to.

[00:40:29] And so then it was like, well, if that's my goal, I know what I need to make. And then how am I going to get there? so it just became time to just. but the bricks in place and in order, so I, I'll be, I will be finding as an S corp this year, have a 401k now for my, my business, and I've started actually looking at projected revenue.

[00:40:47] I have a, you can't see it, but behind me, I have a, like a pipeline of my clients when they, when they end. So I can, every day I can see okay, right. There's a gap come June, 2025 that I need to be working on today to [00:41:00] make sure that that, you know, has some continuity. So. Yeah, I love that. I love that forward thinking that intention that planning and I love what you said about your why I think everyone should have some sort of motivation behind why they do anything and that sounds like a pretty good one.

[00:41:17] Well, and it's super easy to focus on like I part of my every day is like we. We live close to the property where we're building. And so every time I go out, it's just another reminder of I have the capacity, I have the, skillset and I have the current energy to really devote to this. So then my next project is going to be, I loved Natalie Echdahl's conversation with you all.

[00:41:38] Cause my next project is really building out the team and figuring that piece out. but yeah. It's exciting. She's great. We love Natalie. Great. Yeah. Yeah. We'll have to have you back to tell us how that part two goes. Yes. Yes. All right, Naomi, that wraps up our time for the fine folks who want to connect with you, network with you, be in community.

[00:41:58] In a good way. [00:42:00] Yeah. In the good way. Play with your values when you reach out. What is the best way for people to, follow up? So my website is NaomiHathaway. com. You can find all the services and my prices on my website. I also have a podcast, which you can access on my website as well. And then I loved, I love communicating on LinkedIn.

[00:42:19] So I'd love if you find me there and it's just Naomi Hathaway. We appreciate you being here. Thank you for having me.

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