“I make all my decisions through the lens of my values. My values are love and justice.” – Nneka Allen

Join us as we chat with Nneka Allen, the founder of The Empathy Agency, a business that is aligned with her values - love and justice. Nneka dives into the complexities of the historical relationship between African and Indigenous peoples and how it informs her work to create belonging spaces where everyone can feel they belong. Tune in as she discusses her approach to coaching, training, consulting, and education to achieve her mission.

Highlights:

• Creating belonging spaces for racial justice through coaching, training, consulting, and speaking

• Determining client fees through the lens of love and justice

• How Nneka's clients find her through word of mouth, teaching, and her intentional online presence

• Collecting Courage, an anthology about Black fundraisers, is more than just a book, it's a movement

Connect with Nneka Allen:

Website (The Empathy Agency): https://theempathyagency.ca/who-i-am

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nnekaallen/?hl=en

Website (Collecting Courage): https://www.collectingcourage.org/meet-the-authors/nneka-allen

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-empathy-agency

Find Us Online:  https://www.confessionswithjessandcindy.com/

Connect with Cindy:

Cindy Wagman Coaching https://cindywagman.com/

The Good Partnership https://www.thegoodpartnership.com/

Connect with Jess: 

Out In the Boons: https://www.outintheboons.me/

Transcript:

00:00:00 Cindy: Welcome to the Confessions Podcast. I'm Cindy Wagman.

00:00:03 Jess: And I'm Jess Campbell. We're two former in-house-nonprofit pros turned coaches and consultants to purpose-driven organizations.

00:00:11 Cindy: After years of building up our separate six-figure businesses from scratch, we've thrown a lot of spaghetti at the wall and have lived to see what sticks.

00:00:20 Jess: We're on a mission to help other nonprofit coaches and consultants looking to start or scale sell their own businesses past the six-figure mark by pulling back the curtain.

00:00:30 Cindy: Whether you're still working inside a nonprofit and thinking of one day going out on your own or you've been running your consulting business for years, you understand that working with nonprofits is just different. We're giving you access to the business leaders who serve nonprofits as their clients. You know, the people who truly get it.

00:00:52 Jess: No more gatekeeping. No more secrets. This podcast is going to give you an inside look at what running a successful nonprofit coaching and consulting business looks like. Basically, we're asking people how much money they make, how they get paid, and what has and hasn't worked in their businesses.

00:01:11 Cindy: We'll listen in as these leaders share their insights, their numbers, and the good, the bad, and the ugly when it comes to building a nonprofit coaching or consulting business. We're going to empower you to make the power moves that give you the income and freedom you set out to create from day one.

00:01:28 Jess: You ready? Let's go.

00:01:32 Cindy: All right. This is such an exciting conversation for me and for Jess. Nneka, you are someone who I think is doing incredible things in our sector and also has sort of broken the mold in terms of what your business is and how you're building things in a way that's really aligned with you and the life that you want to build. So let's dive into this conversation. Tell us a little bit about yourself and The Empathy Agency.

00:02:05 Nneka: Sure. Thank you, Cindy. Thank you, Jess. I'm really happy to be here, Cindy, with you again. Empathy agency. Well, my name is Nneka Allen. I am a 6th generation Canadian, a daughter of the Underground Railroad. I descend from American slavery. My family's been in Canada for nearly 200 years and in North America for over 450 years. I am Afro-Indigenous, Cherokee, and Ojibwe. And it is all of the historical complexities that exist between African peoples and the indigenous people of Turtle Island that bring me to be here with you today. And so I always lead with my identity because that is the most valuable part of who I am and informs everything that I do. And so the Empathy Agency emerges from that space.

00:03:08 Nneka: And so The Empathy Agency, in a nutshell, what I seek to do is just create belonging spaces, places where everyone feels like they can belong. And so how I do that is an emergent process and includes coaching and training and some consulting and some speaking, although I will tell you, speaking is not my favorite things, too. Coaching, I would stay at the top of my list and education just generally that's okay.

00:03:46 Cindy: I love that and thank you for sharing about yourself. Can we talk a little bit about the difference between those different categories of work? Like coaching versus training versus consulting. And I'm just personally curious why you don't like speaking, but you can talk about that or not.

00:04:05 Nneka: Yeah, so coaching, I think I love coaching because it believes in the inner wisdom of human beings and it is forward looking, which delineates it from therapy. And so I'm a thought partner with my clients and so that really floats my boat. It's this idea that my clients come with wisdom that I am just going to walk with them to help them tap into and there's inevitably an exchange of wisdom during that process and I think that's why I love it so much. Whereas training is more of a one way relationship in that there is someone who is deemed, quote 'the expert' and they are sharing wisdom. And so I've worked really hard to try and frustrate that dynamic and namely I do that through the valuing of first person narratives. We all have a story and a lived experience to bring.

00:05:23 Nneka: And so in training, using narratives as the primary tool for communicating alternative ideas or other perspectives or new information requires more reciprocity than a typical training endeavor. And so sometimes it can be a little sticky to try to get from that expectation of a one way I'm going to deliver to you value and new information so you can just take it up and then go somewhere and do something with it to something that is more dynamic and alive.

00:06:02 Nneka: Consulting is really, "So what's your opinion, Nneka?" And I've never been short of an opinion, but it's really interesting. Once you begin coaching and you begin to dial that part of you back, you don't really want to go there often. And so while I can do that and in some instances it is important to do that, it is a smaller portion of the work that I do. And then on the point of speaking, I don't know, I think again, I think there's just something really flawed about standing up in front of a bunch of people and I'm the only one running my mouth.

00:06:43 Cindy: Fair enough.

00:06:45 Jess: Totally. Okay, so I kind of have a two part question following that answer. Who would you say is your ideal client customer? And how do you position yourself or how do you get in front of people if speaking isn't really your thing, how do you get visible?

00:07:05 Nneka: The ideal client is curious and committed to humility. That's it. They have to be curious about themselves and about others and they have to be willing to get it wrong.

00:07:21 Cindy: And are they primarily in leadership positions or are you working with teams? What are they because I've had this conversation with some other folks who also do well, they do some culture change work in organizations and they'll say the same thing, right? Like curious, humble, really open to the journey. But I've also heard those same people say but it's hard to help articulate the problem. What's the pain point those people are struggling with where they're like, "Oh, yeah, I need some help here," because sometimes... yeah.

00:08:04 Nneka: And that's interesting. And maybe it has more to do with the fact that my focus is around racial justice. And so I find in this space, people have a tendency to be more acutely aware of where the pain points are, or at least they have an idea. They can talk around the pain point, and then we can figure it out together. So that's an interesting question. I'm wondering if the subject matter, my focus has something to do with the reason why the work unfolds the way that it does and why clients show up with a sense for those pain points.

00:08:47 Cindy: Yeah, it sounds like they want to be a leader who lives their commitment to social justice better.

00:08:55 Nneka: Well, I mean, whether they show up feeling like I want to be perceived as better or I want to be perceived as a good person or not, sometimes people show up, and it's a perception thing. But when they come to work with me, it has to be operationalized. It has to be brought into practice. And so, yeah, there may be clients who there's that crossroads where the rubber meets the road, and it's no longer a theoretical exercise, and now we're talking about living it where they say, "I got to tap out," and that's cool. But there are a lot of people who understand at that crossroad the decision they have to make and that they make the decision, and they understand as they take those steps forward the only tools that will serve them are curiosity and humility.

00:09:50 Cindy: Awesome. Okay, I have another question because in my experience, that is a lifelong journey. And so as a business owner, I want to ask you, how long do you work with people? What does that look like in terms of your business model because that work is essentially never done.

00:10:11 Nneka: So my life is predicated upon the belief that everything that I am needs to be invested in the relational, that includes my work, that includes my clients. And so from that perspective, I view all my clients as relationships. These are relationships that I... and I don't know the length of time that I will be in relationship with them. Or as my mother would say, "You have different people coming to your life for different seasons and different reasons." Right? And so sometimes you got some front porch friends, and sometimes you got some living room friends, and sometimes you got some bedroom friends. And sometimes the bedroom friends don't stay in the bedroom. They got to get out in the front yard, right?

00:10:58 Nneka: And so, I think just not confining my expectations to, okay, so this relationship is going to be that, but allowing a more emergent process to unfold in the course of understanding how we will be proximate to each other is really quite vital. So I have clients who come and say I need one on one support , and I have a framework for that that lasts three months, but our relationship never seems to end at the end of that. And so it takes on a new form. And so I think just being open to what form that is as it emerges is really important.

00:11:44 Nneka: I also have clients who come and go, right? So maybe first their leadership team comes and they do some work, and then their leaders do some one on one work. Then we do some organizational work, and then they think, "Okay, we're going to take this work in this direction." And when they get stuck, they know they can come back and we can reimagine together. So how do we help you achieve those objectives? How do we reorganize and recalibrate your approach and your next steps towards racial justice? So it's all of it.

00:12:23 Jess: Yeah, it's fluid, right, and ongoing. Okay. So this makes me wonder, and this has come up a couple of times in this slack community channel we have for nonprofit consultants about pricing. And as you are renegotiating or recommitting, how do you bring up that conversation around pricing? Because I'm imagining that organizational change work with a leadership team is a different investment than one on one coaching. And I find personally, that is sometimes an uncomfortable conversation for me to have, which I probably need to work on. But if you're picturing these kinds of ever moving circles visually with when you were talking, and I'm just curious as to how you bring that up as you renegotiate your work with someone or organization.

00:13:22 Nneka: Well, I can tell you right now. Number one, you cannot be afraid to talk about money.

00:13:28 Jess: Please coach me. Coach me, Cindy, and you can have a whole session with me anytime.

00:13:33 Nneka: Yeah. So as a fundraiser, I'm not afraid to talk about money. But more than that, one of the best exercises I used to facilitate with volunteers who were fundraising for organizations I work with was one around your money story. So what's your money story? What was your first relationship with money? What messages did you get as a young person about money and how you organize yourself around that? And when you begin to unpack that, you're able to redefine your relationship with money. And so that's what I've done in my own life, and money is very simple to me. I mean, all the things that I do, money is the simplest thing I do. I have an hourly rate, and I charge what I charge, and I have a sliding scale, and that's absolutely subjective. And that's it.

00:14:32 Jess: Okay, Nneka we are back for another round of rapid fire questions. Are you ready to play?

00:14:38 Nneka: I think so.

00:14:40 Jess: I promise I'll be kind. We ask a lot of people what their morning routine is, but I'm curious if you have a nighttime routine and if so, what is it?

00:14:50 Nneka: I sure do. So I usually work my way into my bedroom suite around… this is probably around 8:30. And I get into my bed and I either do some reading or I do devotional. But before I get into my bed, of course, I have a bathroom routine, but I really like to take time on my face and just wrap my hair up. For us Black sisters, we gotta keep it moisturized. And so then I take my time in the bed with a devotional or a good book. I know I shouldn't do it, but I have to watch a little bit of CBC. Just a little bit.

00:15:40 Cindy: Okay. For American and other listeners, CBC is a Canadian Broadcasting Company.

00:15:45 Nneka: Yes, the news, the Canadian news. And my dog is usually at the end of my bed and there's probably a little plane that goes on there because he just can't help himself and then it's lights out. We wake up very early in the morning.

00:16:06 Jess: I love it. If you were a TV show, what would you be?

00:16:14 Nneka: It's a drama. It's a drama for sure. It's a series. It's a drama series.

00:16:24 Jess: Is it like Handmaid's Tale level drama or is it like scandal level drama or is it like there's a spectrum.

00:16:41 Nneka: Okay. On that scale, I would say it's more scandal level drama.

00:16:46 Jess: Okay.

00:16:49 Nneka: Yeah, it's more scandal level drama.

00:16:52 Jess: Okay, cool. And then for my last question, you mentioned on our podcast being an Enneagram 8. What is something people really get wrong about Enneagram 8?

00:17:04 Nneka: Oh, that we're sensitive.

00:17:09 Jess: Love it. Okay, thanks for playing.

00:17:11 Nneka: Yeah.

00:17:19 Cindy: I love that. And it's so simple and I know we're going to get questions about that sliding scale because I know a lot of people want to be able to charge the bigger organizations more and make space for the smaller organizations or their passion projects. So how do you determine where someone or an organization falls on that scale?

00:17:45 Nneka: Yes, I make all my decisions through the lens of my values. My values are love and justice. So it's really very simple for me. People of color get discounted. Organizations of color. So B3 organizations, as an example, Black Led, Black serving, Black focused organizations, they can get a discount. It's really that simple.

00:18:07 Jess: Love it.

00:18:07 Cindy: I wanna get it because we like specifics. How broad is that scale? Are we talking like and discount but also premium? I think it's okay to say like, "I'm going to charge more for this organization," but the spread between them, like half? Or?

00:18:35 Nneka: I've never thought about that. But it is. It's on the low end, yeah. So the lowest end would be half of the top end.

00:18:43 Cindy: Cool. That's awesome.

00:18:44 Jess: And I'm just curious, have you ever gotten pushback from maybe from anyone and how you handled that?

00:18:56 Nneka: No. It's really interesting because people may not be able to meet the budget, they might not be able to afford the cost, but how I come at it is rooted in my values. And so this is a really interesting thing. When you make decisions from that place, it leaves little room for people to debate you on how you've done a thing, right?

00:19:25 Jess: Yeah, I love that. And I love that you're clear like...

00:19:29 Nneka: Clear is kind, as Brene Brown says, and it proves itself over and over and over again.

00:19:38 Jess: Okay, so then my next question is, do most of your clients come to you through more of a word of mouth style marketing, referral based marketing? Or how are you marketing your services so that you're calling in new clients? Or maybe you don't need to, because, again, you just said that it's relational. So there's like, this again, I'm picturing like two spinning orbs.

00:20:04 Nneka: Yeah. So I hate marketing, but I love people and I love relationships. And so, in all the traditional ways, I don't market. And I'm always amazed at how people find me. So people find me through podcasts like this. People find me as a result of the teaching I do through UBC. Obviously, people hear from other clients. Right. I think my online presence matters, so I'm very intentional about how I take up space there. Social media in particular, not my favorite, but I am learning to show up in that space the way I want to show up in that space. And I'm never worried about whether or not it sells. I actually don't spend a lot of time thinking about that. What I spend the majority of my time thinking about is what I'm saying and how I'm showing up is it consistent with who I am and what I believe. And that's it .

00:21:25 Jess: I love it.

00:21:26 Cindy: Again, simple. But I think in putting yourself out there so authentically, your people find you. They come to you.

00:21:37 Nneka: Now, I have to say, Cindy, getting to a coherent expression of those things can be messy and tangly, and there's lots of torturous sort of inner conversations or writing sessions I have, or conversations that I'm having to put that together so that it is digestible, so that it is relatable. So that's not necessarily an easy process.

00:22:08 Cindy: Okay, I actually have two totally divergent questions. One, I like to do choose your own adventure, because we can talk a little bit about the book that you co-authored and co-edited, which is, again, I think, a way of putting yourself out there. Maybe let's start with that. But I want to come back to our Confessions question, which is one of my favorites, because I think you just talked a little bit about a pain point in your business. And so we like to ask what is something that you're working on? But let's start with the book , because it's awesome and it's a must read for everyone in our sector. So tell us about Collecting Courage.

00:22:49 Nneka: Thank you, Cindy. Collecting Courage, it's an anthology. 15 Black fundraisers, nonprofit professionals from Canada, United States, writing about their experiences of racism, anti-Black racism in the charitable sector. It is divided into four themes, themes that we felt as editors really reflected the holistic experience of black people. And so those themes are joy, pain, freedom and love. And I had the pleasure of writing the introduction, and not that this was planned this way, but my contribution in love ends up being the final story told. And so I had the pleasure of bookending the book.

00:23:37 Cindy: Love that. And I know Jess wants to ask a question about that, but maybe this might steal her question. But that book, based on what I know, I think it's picking up steam more and more over time. How has that journey been in terms of having this work out there and seeing how the community starts to respond to it and then has a life of its own almost?

00:24:06 Nneka: Well, it's interesting. When Nicole, Camila and I the editors, first met to begin to organize a framework for this project, we decided at that point that it would be more than a book, that it is a movement, that it will be a movement. We called that into being at the outset. And so that changed sort of the way that we were coming at the project. We weren't thinking about this is just a book and that's all this is. We're thinking much broader than that. And because of that, I think it is very much influenced how we put the book together, how we engage with the book beyond its publishing, and how we are in the community listening and talking with people about how they're receiving the book, what is it meant for them? And taking that back up as a process for thinking about what the next steps look like.

00:25:06 Nneka: And as you know, we just launched our curriculum that is related to that Path To Action. And so that is born directly out of the feedback that we were receiving from readers, particularly white readers, who were saying, "Well, now that I know this, what next?"

00:25:23 Cindy: Okay, so I know about that, but our listeners don't. So now I want you to plug it so everyone knows where they can access that.

00:25:35 Nneka: Thank you, Cindy. It's A Path to Action: Journey Towards Collecting Courage. It is an online asynchronous training program that has been designed by the editors in one of our academic partners, and it is a collective learning experience. It is hosted on a virtual site that we built, and you can find out more information at collectingcourage.org by going to the training and learning link.

00:26:05 Cindy: Your microphone, Jess.

00:26:06 Jess: Sorry about that. Okay, so this is so smart. This kind of next step evolution. My guess is that when you had the spark of an idea of Collecting Courage, you weren't necessarily thinking of the training on the back end of it. You merge. I'm curious if you could talk to us a little bit about what have been some of the results. What I'm thinking about is, okay, there's someone listening to this podcast, and they're like, "That's brilliant. I want to collect or collaborate with other like minded people, put some sort of content out. But there's a big investment upfront for that bit of work." And so I'm curious if you can talk to us about some of the results that you've now been able to see through because you're farther down in the process. Or maybe your answer is just like, "I didn't think about any of that. I don't think about any of that. It all works." How it's going to work out ?

00:27:06 Nneka: Yes, it was an emergent process, which means we did not prescribe beyond the book. As a matter of fact, we didn't set out to write a book. We really just were in community. So the Black Canadian Fundraisers Collective I founded in 2018, and that group had been... we meet regularly and the group came together organically because there was a need for Black people to have black fundraisers, to have a space where we could begin to talk about what we are experiencing inside the sector.

00:27:42 Nneka: And as a result of that, we were doing a book review of Gail Picco's book, cap in hand. And we invited Gail to join us. And so we do book reviews as a collective, and we invite the authors to join us. And so she came in and we met with her. And in that conversation, she says, "I've always had this idea of publishing a book from Black fundraisers about what it is to be Black in the charitable sector." And she just literally planted that seed. We didn't do anything. We didn't have a follow up meeting right away. We just let her plant the seed.

00:28:21 Nneka: And then May 2020 happened, and the murder of George Floyd occurred, and the world began to change on that question of anti-Black racism and the willingness of the world to listen to the experiences of Black people changed. And it was in that moment that Gail reached back out to us and said, "I think, right now is the time to do this." And so, we were already well positioned because we were already in the community. We already had a collective. So literally, the next steps were Nicole came to me after she spoke to Gail. I went to the collective and put it out to all of our members. The people who were interested responded, and we accepted everyone who responded. So Cindy knows this. It always comes back to community relationships.

00:29:16 Jess: You strike me as someone that has a ton of faith and a ton of trust in the process and seems like you put a lot of your energy to whatever universe, higher power, God that you believe in things will work out the way they're supposed to work out. And I'm sitting here wondering like what does Nneka do when things don't work out? When she's super stressed, when her bank account is low, like real stuff? Maybe this is the confession part, but yeah, how do you walk through those either uncomfortable or difficult or turbulent times?

00:29:57 Nneka: So let me just preface this answer with… I come from a long line of Black women who believe in God and Jesus Christ. And I can tell you prayer, prayer and prayer. I have seen it work time and time again. And so I have these really powerful examples in front of me. And so I spent the bulk of my adult life in the charitable sector with low balances in my bank account because as most Black women in the charitable sector, I was severely underpaid. And so I spent a lot of time , years, almost 20 years, in fact. Understanding how to navigate, not having enough, while also bringing all of your talents and skills to bear.

00:30:53 Nneka: And I knew how to do that because of those examples before me. My mother, her mother, my grandparents, my grandmothers in particular. And in fact, my daughter, which that sounds a little funny, but she has been a tremendous teacher to me. Again, I want to go back to my values. It is not something I just pulled out of my mind. Love and justice. I watched love and justice live in front of me. My ancestors are a testament to both of those things. I'm not supposed to be here today because white supremacy culture, and the resulting racism from that was supposed to kill my ancestors. But we're here, right? And so I have these really tremendous examples of people who have survived despite the odds, despite the circumstances.

00:31:59 Nneka: And so in those moments where things aren't going well, one, I'm gentle with myself more so now as I edge towards that milestone birthday, y'all know which one. And that's really important, because I think the initial response to disappointment is a really human one, and it's unique to who we are as individuals. And I think we have to allow ourselves space to just have that expression and know that we can then center ourselves and what we believe and what we know to be true. And it's from that place and the values that reside there that we can begin to look forward and see not necessarily what the road ahead will be, but what the next best step might be, right? And I trust myself to figure out what the next best step is. And I never do it alone. My elders are there. My child is there. Her husband is there, my friends, my girlfriends that when we're all having babies together. Never looks like, "How come no one told us about how crazy this shit is," right ?

00:33:11 Jess: So much. That's for a different podcast.

00:33:14 Nneka: Honest to God, please call me back for that. I will go in on that.

00:33:18 Cindy: This is total tangent, but I almost pride myself as being that person who will tell you all the details you don't want to know about when you're having a kid. You want to know what it's really like? Come here.

00:33:31 Nneka: Come.

00:33:36 Cindy: Yeah. Okay. I love everything you're saying because I think, knowing you, again, it's so consistent in terms of knowing who you are, you knowing who you are and how you show up. And I've never seen that waiver, which is just beautiful. I do want to ask you specifically for your sort of quote, unquote "confessions," the things that you are working on, whether it's in your business or for yourself to show up as a business owner or just in life, because obviously, there's not that much of a distinction. What are the areas where you're intentionally either working on or you want to work on?

00:34:23 Nneka: Love this question. So I've not answered this for anyone for 2023. Softness and you're like, "What?"

00:34:38 Cindy: No, that resonated.

00:34:40 Nneka: Softness. Not even I want, I am exploring what does it mean to have values of love and justice that inspire me to do work around racial inequity and injustice? What does it mean to do that and still find softness? How can I make that bigger in my life? And I'll tell you, I am. I don't know if you all are in the Enneagram, but I'm an 8, a challenger. They refer to us as eight holes. It's awful. I can go and tell everyone what to do, get you all in line. We will be marching and we will be looking cute, that's me. If I just woke up and did the thing just on autopilot.

00:35:34 Nneka: So the idea of softness is so funny to me, and it's such a challenge to me that it's got me a little afraid, but also quite excited because I want to know who I am from that perspective. And I'll tell you this. My name, Nneka Allen means... I'm sorry, Nneka Ayana. Allen is a slave name. Nneka Ayana means tender, beautiful flower. And I have never expressed the tender part of who I am. And so that only occurred to me during my winter Sabbath as I was determining that I would pursue softness. And so when I made that connection, I thought, "Oh, okay, so there's this whole piece of me that needs to be explored and expressed." Girl, I don't know what's going to be, 2023 is going to be a mess.

00:36:32 Jess: The piggyback on that. For myself, for our tactical listeners, if you're comfortable sharing what might be one or two things you will do to uncover that tenderness, to uncover your softness, since it sounds like for your most of being has been the opposite.

00:36:55 Nneka: Yeah, well, so right now, for instance, I have an electric blanket on my lap because I'm usually cold and it would normally just bear through and just put on more socks, but it would never really make me feel better, so that's one thing. But just before we got on this call, I was in my dream space, what I call my dream space. I schedule 30 minutes every day in the middle of my day for dream space, and it could just look different every single time. But while I was in my dream space, I was watching my little puppy. He's not so little anymore, he's like 25 pounds, Sammy. And he was playing and I was just watching him and I wasn't thinking anything in particular, but the question came to me, "What would my life look like or what would it take for me to play with him every time he comes and wants to play with me?"

00:37:53 Nneka: You know, those times when the dog jumps up and you're like, "No, not right now." Right? What do I need to do to shift so that I can be present for that moment so I can engage? How would that rearrange me? So that's just sort of how I'm coming at this. I don't know what the answer is, but that was literally 40 minutes ago.

00:38:17 Jess: Yeah. I mean, I just love that it sounds like it's in the front part of your brain instead of buried somewhere deep. And so you're just trying to be thoughtful and think about it all.

00:38:30 Nneka: Add to that, more than think about it, feel about it in my body. So that, to the point about having the electric blanket on it like softness isn't... I don't believe is a theoretical exercise, right? It's not the idea of softness, it's the experience of softness. And so we experience that in our bodies. So you actually have to be in your body, paying attention to your body in order, I think, to experience it .

00:39:05 Jess: I think this is so wise for folks listening, especially our consultants and coaches, who are maybe at the beginning phases of their journey, and they're really holding tight, trying to fit some... what's the saying? Square pegs into some round holes and pushing themselves to the point of burning out. I think that this last part of this conversation is so valuable and I can't wait to have you back on in a year to see what the softness has resulted in, how you're feeling, your mental state, your work, all of it. So thank you. That was really helpful for me. I know, personally.

00:39:45 Nneka: Thank you, Jess.

00:39:46 Cindy: Yeah. I also want to just add to that, because as someone who's been doing this for seven and a half years, it also really hits home because I feel like we live in this sort of hustle culture, and I would say I am not soft as a person. I'm known for not being very soft. So my goal is actually presence and being really like when I'm with someone, being there, when I'm with my family, with my kids, I am enjoying even when we play soccer in the backyard, that we're laughing and having fun. And I'm not thinking about when can I get back to my desk even though it's 07:00 at night. So I feel like softness is really connected to that. And I think that all of us need a little bit more of these things in our lives and in our business.

00:40:42 Nneka: And what would our work be and how would we work with each other? I'm so curious about all of that. And so those curiosities, I turn inward. And so we'll see.

00:40:59 Cindy: Beautiful. Nneka, where can our listeners connect with you and find out more about what you're doing? And, yeah, reach out if they want to.

00:41:09 Nneka: Absolutely. Well, certainly on social media, on Instagram or on LinkedIn, they can find The Empathy Agency or myself personally on LinkedIn, and Nneka Allen through Instagram, or they can go to the empathyagency.ca.

00:41:25 Cindy: Thank you so, so much for this lovely conversation.

00:41:30 Nneka: Thank you. It's been a joy.

00:41:34 Cindy: Thank you again for listening to the Confessions Podcast for nonprofit coaches and consultants. If you enjoyed today's episode, which I sure hope you did, you can show your support in one of three ways.

00:41:46 Jess: Number one, post the screenshot of this episode to your Instagram stories or LinkedIn profile and tag Cindy enough so we can repost you.

00:41:54 Cindy: Number two, share this podcast with a fellow nonprofit culture consultant.

00:41:58 Jess: And number three, leave a positive review on Apple Podcasts so that we can continue to grow and reach new listeners.

00:42:04 Cindy: And of course, make sure you subscribe so you can get the latest and greatest interviews as they drop every Thursday.

00:42:11 Jess: And to our fellow non-profit coaching and consulting friends, remember we're an open book and here to answer your burning biz questions.

00:42:19 Cindy: See you next time.