“And my goal is not to convince them to do something they don't want to do so what i really need to do is have empathy for them, understand what motivates them, what they want to do, what kind of change they wanna create in the world and then show them that this might be one way.” - Racheli Edelkopf

Attraction-based marketing with Racheli Edelkopf

In this episode of the Confessions Podcast, we sat down with Racheli Edelkopf, the mastermind behind Pedal Marketing - a consulting biz that helps nonprofits up their marketing game. Racheli talked about her journey as a program director and how that led her to start her own business. Racheli has valuable insights into the realm of marketing and specifically attraction-based marketing, which is the approach she has taken to build her business.

Highlights:

• Racheli's transition from the nonprofit sector into marketing consultancy

• Attraction-based marketing strategies

• The balance of working on your business vs. in your business

• How to leverage your strengths and find a marketing strategy that suits your abilities and business style.

Connect with Racheli Edelkopf:

Pedal Marketing:  https://www.thepedal.co/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thepedal.co/?hl=en

LinkedIn:  linkedin.com/in/racheli-edelkopf-0484a81a3

Find Us Online:  https://www.confessionswithjessandcindy.com/

Connect with Cindy:

Cindy Wagman Coaching https://cindywagman.com/

The Good Partnership https://www.thegoodpartnership.com/

Connect with Jess: 

Out In the Boons: https://www.outintheboons.me

Transcript:

00:00:00 Cindy: Welcome to the Confessions podcast. I'm Cindy Wagman.

00:00:03 Jess: And I'm Jess Campbell. Where two former in house nonprofit pros turn coaches and consultants to purpose driven organizations.

00:00:12 Cindy: After years of building up our separate six figure businesses from scratch, we've thrown a lot of spaghetti at the wall and have lived to see what sticks.

00:00:20 Jess: We're on a mission to help other nonprofit coaches and consultants looking to start or scale their own businesses past the six figure mark by pulling back the curtain.

00:00:31 Cindy: Whether you're still working inside a nonprofit and thinking of one day going out on your own or you've been running your consulting business for years, you understand that working with nonprofits is just different. We're giving you access to the business leaders who serve nonprofits as their clients. You Know, the people who truly get it.

00:00:52 Jess: No more gatekeeping, no more secrets. This podcast is going to give you an inside look at what running a successful nonprofit coaching and consulting business looks like. Basically, we're asking people how much money they make, how they get paid, and what has and hasn't worked in their businesses.

00:01:12 Cindy: Listen in as these leaders share their insights, their numbers, and the good, the bad and the ugly when It comes to building a nonprofit coaching or consulting business. We're going to empower you to make the power moves that give you the income and freedom you set out to create from day one.

00:01:28 Jess: You ready? Let's go. This is kind of jumping big with the first question. But what makes great marketing?

00:01:41 Racheli: So, first of all, as we said, yes, that's a big question. That's a lot. So I'm just going to say the first thing that comes to mind, which is really just the word empathy. It's really like understanding. Just like the person I'm talking to is not to… It's not the same as me, right? They have a different worldview. They have different beliefs. They come from a different place. And my goal is not to convince them to do something they don't want to do. So what I really need to do is have empathy for them, understand what motivates them, what they want to do, what kind of change they want to create in the world. And then show them that this might be one way. Right? Like our work, product or service might be one way for them to be the person they want to be or accomplish the goal they want to accomplish. So it's totally just getting out of your own self, out of your own agenda, your own head, and just starting from that place of empathy.

00:02:30 Cindy: Amazing. Racheli, welcome to the podcast. For those of you tuning in, we are talking today with Racheli Edelkopf, who is the, I guess, president, CEO, founder of Pedal or Pedal Marketing. And we're going to have such a good time. Racheli, tell us a little bit about your business and how you get paid.

00:02:57 Racheli: So a little bit about me, I think probably like 99.9% of people working in this space. I started out working in the nonprofit space. I was a program director, loved what I did. And honestly, program directing was so incredibly hard because they were an amazing nonprofit with zero marketing company. I think they had like, when their center opened, when their multimillion dollar center opened, they hired a PR firm and then that was it. Like, it was done, finished, checked. We did marketing. And I came on the scene a couple of years later, and my job was really to build up those programs. But registration was dwindling and it felt impossible.

00:03:39 Racheli: So before I had gone into the nonprofit world, I had some experience working for some Brooklyn based companies. That's my hometown in New York. And so I was kind of like, how can I kind of take what I knew about the for profit marketing space and bring it into the nonprofit work I was doing? So very scrappy, very trial and error. But over time, I was able to see this huge shift of going from begging people to sign up, enjoy their programs, to just we had waitlists for every program and volunteers messaging us on Instagram, like, how can I volunteer? How can I get involved?

00:04:11 Racheli: And this massive, even just energy shift that then trickled down to everything from the amount of money we were able to raise, the people we were able to help, the corporate sponsors we were able to bring on. And so that's really when I just became like, super fan obsessed with marketing. And when I decided to leave my nonprofit role, I really thought I was going to go after another nonprofit role. I did not think I was going to become a consultant. I actually feel so bad right now. But I hated nonprofit consultants. I mean all business consultants, and like, there are a bunch of scammers who just want to upsell you.

00:04:48 Racheli: I remember we had a marketing consultant actually come in and pitch our organization and he just used every single jargony word with really the intention of just making our founders, like, head spin and just be like, oh, you're the expert. Like, you can do this. But his proposal was all fluff. I was like, no, we're not doing this. So I had one or two bad experiences that really made me very wary of consultants. And so I really thought at the time that I was working in that nonprofit space, I used to get phone calls from other local nonprofits asking me, who's doing your marketing? And I was really embarrassed to tell them, like, oh, it's me, and I'm the program director, and I have some interns that I brought on from the local university.

00:05:26 Racheli: But it kind of made me think, maybe I can do this for other people. So I was like, it was during COVID. I was like, told my husband, I'm like, until I figure out exactly, I also had thoughts of maybe opening my own nonprofit. I'm like, until we kind of figure shit out. Let me give this a try. I literally made a logo on Canva, built my website on Squarespace, and started putting stuff out on Instagram. That was it. And so in kind of doing that, my first idea was, what I want to build an offer where there's no upselling. I kind of had this feel of like, oh, everyone's trying to upsell you, and you don't know how much you're going to end up having to spend. And so I basically built this offer where I'm like, it was a six week coaching program.

00:06:06 Racheli: And I'm like, you kind of get in, you get out. I'm going to show you how to DIY your marketing for smaller nonprofits. And that's it. At the end of six weeks, you will never see me again, right? Other than me following you on Instagram and cheering you on. And so that was my first offer of how I was going to get paid. And while that did work, like, I did sell that offer, I actually found that it repelled people who wanted to have a longer term relationship with me. So I had clients who were like, this offer sounds really good, but I don't see in six weeks that I'm going to be like, I'm going to want more hand holding. I'm going to want more guidance.

00:06:41 Racheli: And the other thing is that I saw that people really were obsessed with campaigns, right? Which I, again, felt very against my approach. I'm like, we don't just show up when we need people. So I kind of started out. I think that, let's go back to my first question, empathy. I started out probably with what I thought was empathy, but it was really just based on my own experiences and as kind of time evolved. I was like, no, I need to build something that works for the people I want to serve. I need to meet them where they are. And then over time with that offer, I can do two things. I can help them immediately in the moment, but I can also show them that bigger picture of what maybe they should want to do or strive to. Right.

00:07:20 Racheli: So maybe you're coming to me for a campaign, but by the time we finish working, you're like, oh, I get this. Next year, I don't want to just show up for a campaign. I want to put these steps in before. So that's a very long winded. I feel like I'm on a little rant here. That's a very long winded way of saying that I started with this coaching program, which is probably now about 20% of the revenue of my business. Then I have a big chunk is, campaigns, and then I have another probably, maybe 30% to 40% that starts with campaigns and then kind of keeps on this higher ticket, slow burn of how, do we really drip consistent great marketing to these nonprofits audiences. So that's a little bit of a breakdown.

00:08:03 Jess: Okay. Amazing. So helpful. Your backstory is also really relatable. I love that so much. I'm curious, as you were getting started with these original offers, especially, like you said, the six week program, and then you… it sounds like you're really great at listening to the needs of your audience, which, well done. And then also this kind of, more longer engagements. How did you figure out pricing for this? Did you just go like, we're going to charge this, or did you do some research? Had you identified, no, I really want to work with this kind of nonprofit, and this is their average budget? Talk us through the pricing and how you kind of came up with your original prices. I'm sure they've evolved.

00:08:44 Racheli: Yeah. So to be honest, I started out, and I was like, I want it to be a really cheap offer. I also recognized that although I had a lot of experience, it wasn't in coaching or consulting. And so I put it quite low. And I remember my husband, who's a lot more business savvy than me, being like, you can't make money with this offer. And I was like, that's cool. Just my side hustle for fun. And I have found that, as you said today, Google, did I research. I do find even, until today, when I Google, when I research around, it's quite low. Like, what people say, what you can charge. And the way I've kind of evolved is a lot more thinking in terms of the value I bring, which I think most consultants go there. Right?

00:09:34 Racheli: Like, you start with like, well, when I put this price, especially with my six week program, you can kind of do the math of like, how many hours I'm working with you. They're going to think, oh, she's making this amount in an hour, whatever it is, right? There's, like, that insecurity a bit. But I think at this point, I feel a lot more comfortable with the value I bring. But I also don't think the low pricing was a mistake at all. I think that I kind of raised it slowly and steadily based on two factors.

00:10:00 Racheli: So one was as I felt like I had more happy clients who were sharing great testimonials, as I felt more confident in kind of like, I've done this enough times. By the time I've coached, like, 50 nonprofits, I'm like, okay, I've coached 50 nonprofits. And then the third thing, honestly, is demand. I don't see myself building an agency with a bunch of employees. And so it does start to be like, if I have way more people than I can take on, then that is one way to kind of shrink my waitlist a little bit more and work in a way that's sustainable for me.

00:10:37 Cindy: That's awesome. I want to talk a little bit about that. Like, you're not building an agency. You're comfortable with keeping things so that you can deliver one on one services, which is fantastic. Knowing that and knowing that you are a marketing specialist, do you do any marketing for your business? And if so, what does that look like?

00:11:01 Racheli: Yes. So the way that I market my business is a lot after what I appreciate and what I want to see. So I'll be honest, I did have, not massive missteps, but I did take a couple of sales courses, many courses and things like that. When I heard, let's say, the certain follow up tactics or outreach selling, I felt like my whole body freeze up. And so I dipped my toe, I tried it like a drop, like one… 5%, and it just felt so wrong. And I was like, if someone messaged me this, I would be less likely to work with them. And I know that that's not true and I know what everybody says, look, like there's money in the follow up. And I don't think they're wrong. But I think for me to feel, like, ethical with my selling, I need to sell the way I want to be sold to.

00:11:50 Racheli: And for me, that is like, do not tell me what to do. I'm a free spirit. I like to make up my own mind. You put your stuff out there and then if I want that, I know where to find. That is the way I like to be marketed too. And the minute something feels salesy and you want something from me, honestly, it makes me value the product a little less. I'm like you're pushing us a little bit hard. Probably not very many people want this. So that being said, I do not think that this is the way everybody needs to market. Absolutely not.

00:12:20 Racheli: But I think in whatever way you market, you want to feel in integrity with yourself. So for me, that means purely attraction based marketing. So I put out mostly on Instagram where I met Jessica and we hang out. And what I do is I put out tips and ideas for marketing for nonprofits. And then in the beginning, I used to put more salesy like one liners at the end, right? Like, if you want more help with this kind of thing, you can work with me. I've almost completely phased out about… out with that and I have not seen any less inquiries. And that really leads me to believe that there are people like me. There are also people that want the follow up and they want the hard sell. And I think there are so many people that do that and that's okay.

00:13:09 Racheli: But for me, I think I really like this approach. That doesn't mean I'll never be like, oh, by the way, I have availability for campaigns to work with me. But I do that very rarely and I haven't seen really much of a difference in the amount of inquiries I get. So for me, it's really putting out valuable content on Instagram. I do a little bit on LinkedIn. Honestly, Instagram is just my place. That's where my leads come in. I do have an email list, but again, my email list is built off my Instagram. And so sometimes someone might be emailing me, they want to work with me and then sending me a DM at the same time. So it feels like I'm talking to the same audience, just like, on another platform in another way. And that's really how I market my business and how all my leads come in.

00:13:49 Jess: I have so many questions, and this could be because I like you love marketing. So I will just say off the bat, there are very few people in this nonprofit consultant world that I look to, and I'm like, damn, if they're not doing a good job. And you are one of them.

00:14:05 Racheli: You are so kind. Oh, my goodness.

00:14:05 Jess: You are one of them. And then I also really appreciate what you just said about how you sell the way you appreciate being sold to, because I think excellent marketers, I would put myself in that category, can spot what you're trying to do from a mile away. And we're like, I smell you. Like, I know what you're doing. Do less. Do less. And so it makes me want to ask one of the things that I think you do excellent is show not tell marketing. And I've tried to explain this to folks, and I feel like maybe you trying to explain this to folks could be really helpful because you do such an excellent, subtle job of not only teaching and providing value, but also demonstrating your excellence in marketing. And together, they're like this perfect baked pie where someone's like, I get it and I see it, and of course I want to work with her. Could you just explain your thought process of how you kind of put those together?

00:15:06 Racheli: Yes. So, first of all, Jessica, so kind of you, making me blush over here, and I absolutely love what you're doing in the email space, and I love getting your emails. And actually, you wrote somewhere that you've upped your email game and you're killing it. So I love that. Admiration is definitely a two way street. If we talk about show not tell, I'll kind of walk you through two things. So, firstly, I very much find another marketing basic fundamental that we all know is specialized niche, right? Like, I help people X do X, [right]. Be that expert in that one thing, right? Like, I help you with your Instagram, I help you with your email, or whatever it is.

00:15:46 Racheli: And I definitely started with that because I had this one very specific offer that could never help make me money, but that's besides the point. I had this one magic bullet. What I found is with this show not tell, it's given me the freedom to not be defined by one specific offer or expertise, right? Of course, I'm in the nonprofit marketing space, but people are like, I want to write social media posts like you. I want to send emails like you. And so can you show me how? And that's one thing that's frustrated me a lot, and it still does. A lot of the advertising agencies that are, like, the ones winning the awards in the for profit space, you go to their instagram, and they still have the filters of, I don't know, the office puppy, which yes, the office puppy. That's great. When Instagram first opened, that's not… and happy donut day. And I'm just like, what? You guys are literally winning awards, but it's like, the shoemaker's son has no shoes.

00:16:45 Racheli: So what I really wanted to do in this space is be like, people will come to me. They're like, it really works, what you do. You just show up every day, and you keep putting out these tips, and then you're the only person I think of when I want to. And so a lot of times, as you said, Jessica, people can spot it, but they appreciate it. And when it works on you, marketing that, you know it's marketing, and it works on you, you're like, oh, wow, okay, tell me more, right? Instagram [ads] that follow you, and you're like, stop following me. And then you buy it. And then, like, Jessica was showing off her blouse that she had bought off TikTok. So when you see it, there's something there, especially when it comes to selling. So what I did tell you is that I don't really mention, oh, by the way, I have three spots for this, or I… four spots for this offer.

00:17:35 Racheli: But what I really try to do and I do this for my nonprofit clients as well, is really weaving that sales pitch. So instead of what a lot of people do, which is like, let's provide value, right? Let's say even a podcast, someone's on a book tour, what do they do? They provide value for that 45 minute episode, and then the last three minutes, they plug their book, right? Now, contrast that, and by the time the plug comes, people are like, okay, here's the plug, whatever it is. So instead, what you want to do is you want to kind of infuse that sale throughout everything that you're saying, and you want the valuable content to have that thread of sales in it. So, for example, if I'm giving a tip about something a nonprofit marketer could do, I might say that through the lens of a client that they work, and I might end up dropping that we had raised X amount together.

00:18:24 Racheli: And so it's in the context of a tip, but slowly, people are pulling out these little details about me. Oh, she's helped this nonprofit raise a half a million dollars. Okay. When you have a bunch of these subtle little points, or this was the problem, my nonprofit client came to me, here's the solution. Here's how you can use the solution. Then it doesn't feel like a testimonial or like bragging, look what I've done. That’s a lot more of, like, no, I just taught you something like no strings attached. You don't have to work with me. But we're sending those same messages, but kind of closed in, super valuable content.

00:19:02 Cindy: That's awesome. Both Jess and I are wondering about your sales sort of funnel process or even your lead acquisition. Right? So you have this attraction in marketing. You're infusing that authority into all the things that you're doing to let people know in a really organic way how you can help them or let organizations know how you can help them. How do you actually gather leads or manage the sales process with that? Do you have a traditional lead magnet? Yeah. What does that whole process look like? Where do you push people? And then what happens after that?

00:19:45 Racheli: So I'm going to probably horrify a lot of people listening. But listen, it's confession. This is the real hard truth. The real hard truth is I've got, like, a laundry list of things that I should do and I haven't done. But I haven't done it for two reasons. I haven't done it because maybe it's on a should list, not like I want to. And then also I haven't needed to yet at this moment in time. The way it usually works is someone will reply to one of my emails or on my Instagram, message me and say, hey, I love this. I've been following before. I love your marketing, da, da, da, some version of some really sweet compliments. And then do you offer this? Or, I have this problem, can you help me with it? Right. And then usually what I'll do is I don't spend a ton of time messaging back and forth in the DMs or on email. I'll really just be like, you can book a free inquiry call. It's a 20 minute inquiry call, and you'll share with me about what you're trying to do. I'll share with you if I'm the right fit, how I can help you.

00:20:43 Racheli: So the reason I do that is a lot of times people, like, I… just last week I got a DM. Do you do social media management? And Jessica, we laugh about this. We don't do social media management. But I said, but feel free. I didn't even say I don't do it. I was like, you know what? Why don't you hop on a call and tell me more about what you're looking for? Turns out they do not need social media management, not even a little bit. All they're thinking specifically about fundraising. Specifically, they have a huge list that they haven't been using, so they need email marketing help. Right. So I find that just like, let's have a chat, works a lot better because sometimes people don't know what they need or what they want or what? They know the problem. They might not know the solution. So sometimes they'll jump in and be like, I need this, but let's work backwards. What's your problem? What's the solution?

00:21:29 Racheli: So basically, we'll hop on an inquiry call, and then again, I'm going to horrify people, which is after the inquiry call, I do zero follow up. The only follow up I do, sorry, the only follow up I do is when it's like a smaller offer. You have my 20 minutes. If you want to move ahead, email me. If not, all good, right? Or you need to think about it, talk to your board, knock yourself out. That's cool. I would say this larger ticket, a ticket like a campaign that's like, going to stem over four months. When they're more complicated offers, then I do a proposal. But almost always they're like five figure offers. So it's like, you know, even if I have to spend an hour putting together that proposal or a half hour, I'm like, you know what? There's a lot at stake here that makes sense for me. And then that's the follow up. Follow up is the proposal. And then there's no follow up on the follow up. There's no, hey, did you have time to look at it? You want to hop on a… there's nothing like that.

00:22:32 Racheli: And again, this probably, as you said, this is like, everybody says the money is in the follow up and don't do that and whatever it is. But I found that I think the reason this works for me is, these people follow me on Instagram. Their follow up is the next day they see my post in their feed. The next day, they see my Instagram story. So it's not like I sent the proposal, and they're never going to see me again. They're going to see my face. Maybe not every day, right? Like, let's not exaggerate. But those might face, like, twice that next week. And a lot of times I'll have people that will come back a year later, and they'll be like, oh, I'm ready to do this offer. So I found that pretty much people first of all, I never have once gotten a no. So people will just ghost, right?

00:23:17 Racheli: Like, after the call, I [left] the [unclear]. I'm going to talk to my board, and I'll get right back to you. No problem. Sure. And then they'll never, ever be a no. I think that one person said a no. And I'm like, I should frame this email. What a kind, thoughtful person. Just because some months, you've spoken to tons of people, and you're just, like, so overwhelmed that I'm going to have too much work next month and I can't breathe. And then I'm like, okay, it'll work out. I can take everyone on, or whatever it is. So, yeah, I don't do any follow up. Whatever comes back, comes back. And then I start working with that. Yeah.

00:23:50 Jess: I love that you really live, breathe, embody this attraction mindset and what will be will be. That funk. And I'm just curious, has it ever run into a pickle situation where, like you said, suddenly someone kind of ghosts you for three or four months and then you're stacked projects and you're like, oh, and if so, what is the team you lean on to allow for all of those projects to happen? Or do you say, sorry, we have to postpone your start date? How does that work if that part is a little bit in limbo?

00:24:26 Racheli: Yeah, so I would say two things. So number one is you have the two kinds of projects. You have the projects with a really clear start and end date, right? Like, let's say an end of your campaign and then you have something, like evergreen, like, I want to work on an email sequence. Once someone donates, what’s that, what happens? Right? What's that trigger of events? So firstly, during more hectic seasons, I'll delay anything that's not… that doesn't have to happen this week. And on anchor call, they'll always tell people, there's like a one to two month wait time to work with me, usually on average. And so that really helps people because let's say in their head, they'll be like, oh, I'm going to work with her in the summer. Meantime, they've ghosted me three months ago. And then they show up and they're like, I'm ready to start tomorrow.

00:25:12 Racheli: And there's that expectation of like, oh, I'm probably going to have to wait one to two months. And then sometimes they get pleasantly surprised. I'm like, you know what? I do have availability in two weeks, or whatever it is. So that's kind of how I manage those leads. But then I think what you're talking about is this overwhelm, right? At this point in time, I may change my mind, but I don't want to run an agency. And so it's me. I have a graphic designer, I have bookkeeping support and that kind of stuff. But in terms of the creative, it's basically you're looking at it. So what I've done in those times is kind of like twofold. Okay, so firstly, I'll be honest. I think I used to feel like this is not so ethical or whatever, and then I learned a lot about this and I'm like, no, I can do this. So do you know that when you're looking at plane tickets, depending on where you're searching from, you're going to get another ticket? Right?

00:26:06 Racheli: My husband had a friend from South America who made a whole business out of it, like years ago when he was like a teenager, of selling tickets that he had booked in Argentina because they were like a few hundred dollars less or whatever. But basically there really is this idea of also, is the plane full? Is it high season? Prices go up and so I do that too. I already know. Like December. That's crazy, right? And so my prices do get higher as I get busier, and I'm very comfortable with it. I think that's something that's done all the time. Do you know that? Like air conditioners and refrigerators, like, the prices go way up in the summer and then it goes down in the dead of winter, so I'm very comfortable with that. And then the other thing is that I have three little ones, and so I do get a lot of help in the non marketing creative space. So I do… at this point, it just doesn't make any financial sense for me to wash dishes, do laundry, any of those, kind of things, right. Like spending time with my kiddos, that's only something I can do. But I really try to also outsource those kind of things. And yeah, during those crazy months, I'm working every evening. It's hard. I'm dying. I'm like, I'm not doing this again, but right now, that's kind of a little bit what it looks like.

00:27:29 Jess: I love that you said that. I can see Cindy's head, like, nodding off as hard as mine, because it's actually something we talk about in my family too, about this mental load and unpaid labor and how expensive all of that is, and yeah, so I love that you brought that up. Okay, I have like, a bajillion questions I want to ask you, and I also want to be mindful of our time. I want to inquire for the people, and this might be a little bit selfish. I actually have two questions. Sorry, Cindy. Don't kill me. I want to ask about email and I want to ask about what, you referenced it, you passed over it really quickly about, shoemaker not making their own shoes or whatever this thing is, cobbler no shoes. I don't know what it is, but I find that a lot of consultants really loathe marketing, and so let's maybe start with that one. And then I want to ask you the other question as well about email. Let's start with how do you carve out? Like, what does the split look like of working on your business versus in your business? And any advice do you have for folks who are really struggling to put an emphasis on the visibility piece, the attraction marketing piece, the part that brings people in so that you have the work to actually do?

00:28:47 Racheli: Yeah, again, this would be on my should list. Like, I keep saying I should take just a season off from client work and work on my business. That does not happen. I mean, the way my marketing works that I'm consistent with putting out my social posts and stories is I just made it like a rule. Like, there has to be X amount of social posts and X amount of stories. That is literally my job. The same way I wouldn't let a client, hanging where I'm supposed to deliver an email sequence, that is literally the same mindset I have. And so sometimes that means like Saturday night, I'm like, oh, I don't have any content for this week. Whatever, too bad. Figure something out, whatever it is. So it's more of the mindset of like, this is my job.

00:29:32 Racheli: And I think that what happens with this kind of thing is it's like a flywheel. So I would say, for example, the first two months that I was on Instagram, I just put out content and I got no leads. Right. And then what do you start getting? I honestly don't remember it. I should have kept track. But like, okay, maybe you get two people messaging you a month or whatever it is, right, and then how many clients? But what I found is that what, it starts to happen is this crazy effect of like, oh, people are telling their friends and then they're following you and then suddenly you're getting way more leads per month and you're putting out the same quantity and quality of content. So it is this long term game in that sense. But I also like, here's the thing. There's this balance of how much are you working on your business and in your business?

00:30:25 Racheli: What I've done is because I have this attraction based mindset, I spend very little time working on my business. But I also think that we need to play into our strengths. So I don't believe the same way I have all these should’s on my list of what a proper business, how a proper business runs. And you send up follow-up emails and you do this and you do that and I jump. I think the same is true. It's like marketing is really not your strong point and you're excellent at sales. Like knock yourself out, don't beat yourself up that you don't have just leveled emails. It's okay to play into your strengths and you might even just look at them side by side. For me, I'm like, if I can spend one hour on attraction based marketing a week and then I'm done, that works really good for me. But if you're like, you know what, I'd rather spend five hours a week and do sales and that makes more sense, aligns with my strengths and then that makes sense too. I don't think it's like my way or the highway at all. Although I can't imagine doing something else personally.

00:31:27 Jess: Yes, makes total sense. Before we go into our confessions question, I have to ask you just a little bit about your email marketing strategy. Because as a marketer, you do know that it's an important piece of the pie, but it's not your most important piece. And correct me if I'm wrong, I think you send out like one email a month.

00:31:45 Racheli: Yes.

00:31:45 Jess: And it feels like at least watching you on Instagram that you do have a strategy around it. Because I do see you sharing tips and you're like, if you want more of this, jump on my email list and things like that. I know it hasn't been like the emphasis or the priority, but I'd love for you to share. Why do you do only one email a month? And what is the strategy around that and any little tips and tricks you can give in the email marketing space?

00:32:09 Racheli: Yeah, so my one email a month strategy really stems from, I guess the core value of like, you can only show up in someone's inbox or someone's feed if you're going to really be adding value. Adding value doesn't have to be educational, right? You can entertain, you can inspire, you can build relationships. But I really believe that. And to me, writing an email takes a lot more time and thought than a social media post. And so I just don't currently have the bandwidth to do more than one well. And so I'm not going to. And for example, last year I did a free workshop and that was really about growing my email list and I'm not doing that again because I don't have the bandwidth, right. So I had prioritized certain time and space in my schedule. I love doing it. People, I really feel like they got value, right? But honestly, I feel like you got to do it well. I can't do more than one well right now.

00:33:00 Racheli: And the other piece of it is I know this is true both for my nonprofit clients and in the for profit world that there's more money in email, right? Jesse always come in with the stats of how much more, but I found personally that and this is just my anecdotal experience for my business. Specifically, my leads come in from Instagram and from word of mouth, right? So clients referring clients or not even clients, like all the people who've never worked with me and they, full on pitch and convince someone else to hire me because they follow me on Instagram. Do you know what I mean? So to me, I haven't seen more money in the email than in the Instagram. And so to me the email is more of like an insurance policy of like, right, what if it all goes away? What if my Instagram gets hacked? If my Instagram gets hacked, I'm screwed, guys. That is my answer. I am screwed.

00:33:51 Racheli: That's a little bit about that. And I do put a little bit more of that option to work with me a little bit more in email than I do in Instagram. Because I'm just saying, I'm reading the room, right? Like if you're in your inbox, you're a little bit more in the working space and then when you're on Instagram, you're more of like entertainment, like distract me, whatever. So I try to just be mindful of like, read the room, where am I? So I feel like an email sometimes it's actually helpful. It should just drop the link of, like, here's where you can book a call. I probably do it in like one in three or four emails. Again so you're talking about like once a quarter, but sometimes it's convenient. You're like, yes, where's the link? I'm not going to make people break their head to figure out how to work with me. So I'll put a little bit more of that sale in [unclear].

00:34:33 Jess: Okay, we are back for another round of rapid fire questions. You ready to play?

00:34:39 Racheli: Yeah. [Looks] scared, but yeah.

00:34:42 Jess: What is one or two Instagram accounts that you follow that you really get something out of?

00:34:48 Racheli: So one of them is yours, Jessica. I would say like the one nonprofit, I know don't blush.

00:34:56 Jess: I did not pay her to say that. But yes, I'll slip through later.

00:34:59 Racheli: Yeah. And then the other one, I'm actually pulling it up on my phone because I'm trying to remember. So I really like HelloStoryTale. I found them. I just really like, again, it's like super Bite Size. Little tips about storytelling.

00:35:13 Jess: Okay, next question. Who do you learn from? Do you have a coach? Do you have a program or are you just winging it?

00:35:21 Racheli: So I like to learn from a bunch of places at once and then take the pieces that I like and kind of string them together, the pieces that apply. So firstly, I love all marketing, sales and psychology books. So I think the more… I still can't believe how cheap books are and so I love books. I also work really hard. I said I don't use LinkedIn much, but I really try to curate a LinkedIn feed of really smart thinkers, marketers, copywriters, people in the ad agencies. So I learn a lot from my LinkedIn feed and then I take the occasional course that really entrusts me or I feel like, okay, here's a gap in knowledge that I have.

00:36:04 Jess: Do you have one course that you just thought was really great?

00:36:07 Racheli: So I really liked Sell From Stage. It's probably the most expensive course I took. I think I was telling you about it, Jess, I think it was like about a $2,000 investment and he really specializes in this weaving of selling. Right. A lot of it is about if you're giving workshops or selling from stage. But I found it to be just true in mindset, in everything from, like Instagram stories to email to everything. So I really got a lot of value. But I would say I think his podcast, which is called, I think Sell From Stage Academy, if you're someone that, you can kind of decode what someone's doing as they do it, you don't even need the course. He does it. So you can just learn from listening to him.

00:36:50 Jess: Music [that too], right, Cindy?

00:36:52 Cindy: Yeah, it's Colin Boyd and we can include a link, yeah.

00:36:53 Racheli: Yes, Colin Boyd. And it's [unclear] accent, so it does not feel like a chore to listen to.

00:36:59 Cindy: Not at all.

00:37:00 Jess: Okay, last question. What's one marketing campaign or product that just you went, damn, like, they got me.

00:37:09 Racheli: Okay. Does it have to be nonprofit or for profit?

00:37:11 Jess: No. Anything. Any product.

00:37:13 Racheli: Okay, I can't choose one, so I'm just going to choose the most recent. So I saw this incredible ad when I worked for a nonprofit for the longest time. It was for a nonprofit that works with people with disabilities. And so I saw this ad where you basically see, like, a commercial kitchen, and the chef is like the stereotypical chef. He walks in, and he starts yelling, what's wrong with you? There's 200 people waiting for their food or whatever it is, and he's yelling specifically at, like, two sous chefs or whatever they are, and then suddenly the camera like, the chef kind of storms off the camera, zooms in, and you notice that one of the two people he was yelling at has down syndrome. And then the screen just said, thanks for treating us like regular people. And I loved it. It was so good.

00:37:56 Jess: So good, yeah.

00:37:57 Racheli: Again, that is, like, a demographic that's very close to my heart, but I just saw it recently, and I was like, so good.

00:38:03 Jess: Yeah. So good. So good. Okay. Thank you for playing.

00:38:07 Racheli: You're welcome.

00:38:11 Cindy: The one thing that's really sticking with me in this conversation is, like, you got to find a way to make it work for you. Right. Your decisions have to be aligned with your strengths and what you can commit to doing consistently and well from a place of adding value to your community. So I love that. Our favorite/last question to ask is your confession. What's something that maybe, you don't want to admit about running your business or wish you were doing better?

00:38:42 Racheli: Right. So my confession is probably twofold, and they both stem from, like, such a cliche, but, like, impostor syndrome. So number one is I have been so blessed that this attraction based marketing has worked wonders for me. I have not had a break in, like, two years. Just like, I feel like I'm running on a treadmill, but I will, no matter what, have every couple of weeks, this huge spiral panic attack of, like, all my leads are going to dry up, and this is it, and I'm going to be at zero, and then I'm going to have to start cold pitching people. So I do not ever feel like, ooh, I'm secure. It's great. I feel like I had that for the past couple of weeks. Oh, my God. I do way too much work, but it's always in the background of, like, it's all going to dry up. It's all going to go away.

00:39:33 Racheli: And the other thing I would say is and I think a lot of creatives can relate to this, is I will usually get this debilitating fare right after someone signs on, right. Because I was just super confident, and I pitched what we're going to do and how we're going to do it, and then I'm just like, you have no ideas left. I don't know how to do this. Just deliver them what I said. And it's really hard because that's really when you need your brain sharp, clear. It's fine if I'm crying. Oh my gosh, all my leads are going to dry up. But you can't really bring that energy to like, I just signed on this project. I took on this commitment. Like, I really need to show up as my best self. And honestly, what's helped me, I don't know if there's tips in the confession, but I'm going to throw it in because it's really helped me. It's like a really old book. My brother was hearing me spiral out and he's like, you need to read this book. I did not even read the book. I read one chapter of it. It's called Feeling Good. It's kind of like a textbook. It's like the OG book of Behavioral Science or cognitive something.

00:40:37 Racheli: And basically it just goes through what are like the 10 or 12 most common distortions that our minds make, right? So one of them is like black and white thinking. One of them is fortune telling. I have no ideas. So you just kind of poke holes in it. No ideas. Can you think of one bad idea? You just kind of engage with that voice and you poke holes in it. The fortune teller. This guy's going to finish working with me and think that he wasted all his money. Okay, do you know for sure that's the case? Have there been other people that you worked with that didn't think they lost their money working with you? In fact, maybe they came back and they wanted to keep working with you. So it's really just what I used to do is just let the voice run around wild in my head, and I don't do that anymore. And it's been the biggest change for me. I used to just suffer so much unnecessary, just like, mental anguish, and I definitely feel like it's been life changing. And the biggest thing was just reading those 10 cognitive distortions, and I'm like, oh, damn. I did every single one of them. And the minute they're put in like, this is a list of distortions, you're like, oh, these are not regular thoughts. Okay, now I know what to do. I can tackle them. I can put on my boxing gloves. So yeah, that's what I do.

00:41:50 Cindy: That is so good.

00:41:51 Jess: So smart.

00:41:52 Cindy: Yeah, you're so, like, sharp.

00:41:55 Racheli: Oh, gosh.

00:41:57 Jess: In a great way. In a clearest kind of way. Not like in a–

00:42:06 Cindy: Not like sharpened.

00:42:09 Jess: Oh, yeah, not a sharpened. No, you're very warm, but you’re just really smart.

00:42:13 Racheli: You don't see yourself the way other people see you, right? Like, there is a little bit of that gap. I thought that I'm way more fluffy than I am, like, both of my marketing. And then people are like, no, you're like, no fluff. Straight to the point. So it's very interesting because I do get a lot of that feedback and I'm like, I thought this differently in my head, but okay. Yeah.

00:42:34 Cindy: Well, I would say it's thoughtful and concise. Your answers have been very thoughtful and very concise and specific, which is super helpful, and I appreciate it.

00:42:43 Racheli: And I never [unclear] concise when I talk. So I'm going to–

00:42:47 Cindy: Take it. Yeah.

00:42:48 Racheli: I might want you to put that in writing.

00:42:51 Cindy: For sure. All right, Racheli, where can our listeners connect with you and I'm sure, Instagram. So let's start with, what's your Instagram handle and where else can people can–

00:43:02 Racheli: Yeah, so my Instagram handle is thepedal.co, and like we've mentioned many times in this conversation, that's probably the best place to hang out with me. I am on LinkedIn, but I'm a lot more like I said, I post there like, once a week or whatever. It's not, like, my favorite place to be, but definitely you can connect with me on Instagram. If you want to join my email list, you're more than welcome to as well. But, yeah, my goal there is really just to put out some helpful content that could make you laugh and also be useful and yeah. So definitely come hang out there.

00:43:32 Jess: Thank you.

00:43:33 Cindy: Thanks so much.

00:43:33 Jess: So good.

00:43:37 Cindy: Thank you again for listening to the Confessions podcast for nonprofit coaches and consultants. If you enjoyed today's episode, which I sure hope you did, you can show your support in one of three ways.

00:43:48 Jess: Number one, post a screenshot of this episode to your Instagram stories or LinkedIn profile and tag Cindy and I so we can repost you.

00:43:56 Cindy: Number two, share this podcast with a fellow nonprofit coach or consultant.

00:44:01 Jess: And number three, leave a positive review on Apple podcasts so we can continue to grow and reach new listeners.

00:44:07 Cindy: And, of course, make sure you subscribe so you can get the latest and greatest interviews as they drop every Thursday.

00:44:14 Jess: And to our fellow nonprofit coaching and consulting friends, remember, we're an open book and here to answer your burning biz questions.

00:44:21 Cindy: See you next time.