Referral Fees: Breaking the Taboo in Nonprofit Consulting

We have this belief in our sector that if it's good for me, it can't be good for the organization. I have a problem with that because there's no sector as self-sacrificing as ours. We think if we add money to the equation, we are compromising our values and can only see dollar signs. That's not how we operate. There's this weird feeling that you can't be nice and make money. - Cindy Wagman

Referral Fees: Breaking the Taboo in Nonprofit Consulting

You know that feeling of dread when someone asks you to do unpaid work? That sinking sensation that you're being taken advantage of, yet again? Well, if you're a nonprofit consultant, requests for free labor might hit a little too close to home.

But what if there was a way to turn those asks into opportunities to get properly compensated for your expertise? In this refreshingly candid discussion, we pull back the curtain on a topic that's often brushed under the rug: referral fees.

Key Highlights:

• How to reframe your mindset around monetizing referrals, breaking free from the "martyr mentality" that plagues the nonprofit sector.

• Practical tips for initiating referral fee conversations upfront, setting clear expectations with potential partners.

• Specific percentage structures Jess and Cindy implement

00:00:00 Introduction to Nonprofit Coaching and Consulting Business

Cindy and Jess introduce their podcast, aiming to help nonprofit coaches and consultants grow their businesses past six figures by sharing insights and experiences.

00:01:31 Exploring Referral Fees in the Nonprofit Sector

The hosts discuss the evolving views on referral fees in the nonprofit sector, emphasizing the importance of monetizing referrals and challenging the belief that being nice and making money are mutually exclusive.

00:04:22 The Shift from Unpaid Labor to Valuing Time and Effort

The conversation highlights the shift from doing unpaid labor to recognizing the value of time and effort spent on referrals, encouraging listeners to reevaluate their approach to accepting referral fees.

00:06:37 No Recognition for Unpaid Labor

Emphasizing that there are no rewards for not monetizing unpaid labor, the hosts urge listeners to consider the underlying reasons behind reluctance to ask for referral fees and emphasize the need to invest time and energy wisely in business opportunities.

00:08:21 The Unpaid Labor of Business Referrals

Discussion on the unrecognized labor involved in making business referrals, including time, money, and effort in making meaningful connections and referrals.

00:10:31 The Draining Process of One-on-One Calls

Exploration of the exhaustive process of setting up, conducting, and following up on one-on-one video calls, emphasizing the emotional and administrative labor involved.

00:12:13 The Significance of Vetting Referrals

Highlighting the importance of vetting referrals to maintain business reputation and avoid negative outcomes from poor referrals.

00:13:02 Consequences of Bad Referrals

Personal anecdote illustrating the impact of a bad referral on business relationships and the need for quality referrals to avoid tarnishing reputation.

00:15:15 Effective Ways to Earn Through Partnerships

Discussion on successful partnership and referral strategies, including affiliate models, recommended percentages for high and low-ticket offers, and the importance of clear tracking and meaningful client introductions.

00:19:54 The Importance of Preemptive Conversations for Referrals

Discussing the significance of having upfront conversations and agreements before making referrals to ensure clarity and smooth processes.

00:22:26 Navigating Referral Conversations with Potential Clients

Exploring the complexities of referral conversations, including efforts, follow-ups, and the impact of not having clear agreements in place.

00:25:01 Establishing Referral Relationships in Professional Networks

Sharing insights on proactively setting up referral relationships, managing expectations, and the benefits of clear communication in professional networks.

00:26:41 Addressing Awkwardness in Referral Discussions

Suggesting ways to introduce referral agreements post-coffee chats and highlighting the importance of open communication in referral partnerships.

00:28:30 Encouraging Reciprocal Referral Agreements

Promoting reciprocal referral agreements, discussing mutual benefits, and normalizing proactive referral practices in professional circles.

00:29:50 The Importance of Direct Referrals

Discussing the value of direct referrals over involving a third party for better client experience and outcomes.

00:32:42 Affiliate Income Structure

Exploring affiliate income models and the philosophy of offering a 50% referral fee for bringing in clients, emphasizing the importance of active engagement for successful affiliate programs.

00:35:30 Compensation for Business Referrals

Emphasizing the need for fair compensation for bringing in business, especially for marginalized groups, rejecting unpaid labor requests and promoting equity in payment practices.

00:37:23 Commitment to Equity in Compensation

Affirming a commitment to equity by advocating for fair pay, sharing job postings with salary information, and valuing compensation for all types of work.

00:38:19 Generosity Linked to Earnings

Highlighting the correlation between earnings and the ability to be generous, emphasizing that increased income allows for more generosity across various aspects of life.

00:40:51 Normalizing Conversations About Money

Promoting open discussions about money, encouraging the charging and asking for referral fees to uplift each other in the business community.

00:41:13 Empowering Through Conversations

Emphasizing the importance of uplifting each other through meaningful conversations about financial success and community impact.

Find Us Online:  https://www.confessionswithjessandcindy.com

Connect with Cindy:

Cindy Wagman Coaching https://cindywagman.com

Fractional Fundraising Network https://www.fractionalfundraising.co/

LinkedIn:  https://ca.linkedin.com/in/cindywagman

Connect with Jess: 

Out In the Boons: https://www.outintheboons.me

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jess-campbell-outintheboons/ 

Transcript:

[00:00:00 - 00:00:03]Welcome to the Confessions podcast. I'm Cindy Wagman.

[00:00:03 - 00:00:11]And I'm Jess Campbell. We're two former in house nonprofit pros turn coaches and consultants to purpose driven organizations.

[00:00:11 - 00:00:20]After years of building up our separate six figure businesses from scratch, we've thrown a lot of spaghetti at the wall and have lived to see what sticks.

[00:00:20 - 00:00:30]We're on a mission to help other nonprofit coaches and consultants looking to start or scale their own businesses past the six figure mark by pulling back the curtain.

[00:00:30 - 00:00:51]Whether you're still working at a nonprofit and thinking of one day going out on your own, or you've been running your consulting business for years, you understand that working with nonprofits is just different. We're giving you access to the business leaders who serve nonprofits as their clients. You know, the people who truly get it.

[00:00:51 - 00:01:10]No more gatekeeping, no more secrets. This podcast is going to give you an inside look at what running a successful nonprofit coaching and consulting business looks like. Basically, we're asking people how much money they make, how they get paid, and what has and hasn't worked in their businesses.

[00:01:11 - 00:01:27]Listen in as these leaders share their insights, their numbers, and the good, the bad, and the ugly. When it comes to building a nonprofit coaching or consulting business, we're going to empower you to make the power moves that give you the income and freedom you set out to create from day one.

[00:01:28 - 00:01:30]You ready? Let's go.

[00:01:31 - 00:01:32]Hey, Jess.

[00:01:32 - 00:01:33]Hello.

[00:01:34 - 00:01:35]How's it going?

[00:01:36 - 00:01:45]We're good. And actually, I'm excited to have this chat because for not the first time, I'm actually like, it's working.

[00:01:46 - 00:01:54]It's working. Okay. So I love that things are working, which is good. Your business is usually working.

[00:01:55 - 00:01:58]No, I mean the topic of conversation, which we haven't even said yet.

[00:01:59 - 00:02:47]Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I think this is going to be a juicy episode because it's been coming up a lot in conversations online, like on LinkedIn and the build better together community and other communities that I'm part of. So we're going to dive into a whole conversation on referral fees. Woohoo. Okay, well, let's. Let's start with, like, kind of the general feeling you get in the sector of why is this even not a controversial topic? But, like, people are a little bit all over the place, so where are they? What have you been noticing with the conversations you've been having?

[00:02:48 - 00:04:13]Yeah, I mean, I would definitely say it's evolved from a couple years before till today, and that probably has a lot to do with my business. My feelings around it have absolutely shifted I think that when you're, listen, I think referring, referring business is a key part of everyone's business. It should be. If you're not networking and letting people know what it is you do, you finding out what other people do so that inevitably you can make a very strong recommendation, like, stop what you're doing and go make that a priority. I think the shift really happens depending how far out you might be from your in house, nonprofit job. And I see folks who are newer to consulting and coaching going down this path of, you know, frankly, like, wanting to be nice. And I want to say that I understand as someone who's been running my business for almost eight years, like, I still fall into the trap of, like, being nice. I just fell into it with a client the other day. I was complaining about it to the Build Better Together community because, like, it still happens to me. So it's totally human and normal to like, want to be nice and do unpaid labor and make recommendations, but then you do it a few times.

[00:04:13 - 00:04:13]Yeah.

[00:04:13 - 00:04:22]And you realize this is work. This works. I'm not getting paid for. And, and then it shifts.

[00:04:22 - 00:05:16]Yeah. And you're like, wait a second. And I feel like. So it's so interesting. So, yes, I think there's that. I want to be nice. You know me, I teach referral based marketing as like, the number one way you should be starting to get clients in your business. It is by far the most effective, the cheapest, with the highest return, all that kind of stuff. And I don't think that many people have a problem with the idea of receiving referrals. The problem is we think that we can't monetize it or that we can't ask people for referral fees or offer referral fees. But the interesting thing that I've noticed is that when I have talked to people in the past and they say, like, they are proud to say they do not accept referral fees.

[00:05:16 - 00:05:17]Yeah. Why?

[00:05:17 - 00:06:37]And I feel like it's this hangover from how we talk about commission in fundraising, because most people I know are fundraisers, at least when I've had these conversations. And I think that we have this baked in belief in our sector that if it's good for me, it can't be good for the organization. And I have a problem with that because especially after saying all that, you just about being nice, there is no one, no sector that I can think of that is as self sacrificing, as nice as, like, I'm going to do everything I possibly can against my best interests to support these organizations. Like, nothing can be further from the truth. Yet for some reason, we think with these business based relationships that all of a sudden, if we add some money to the equation, we are compromising all of our values, and we're all of a sudden, like, can only see dollar signs, which, like, no one in our sector can only see dollar signs. Like, that's not how we operate. I don't know. Like, I feel like there's this weird feeling that, like, you can't be nice and make money.

[00:06:37 - 00:07:58]Yeah. And, I mean, I think I said this on stage at the make it happen conference because there was a small session on referral fees, or someone asked me about it, and I was like, there's no trophies. Like, you don't get a gold star. You don't get any kind of recognition around not monetizing your unpaid labor. So why? What really are you doing it for? It's not even karma. Like. Cause this isn't karma. This isn't how that works. And so, yeah, I would say to anyone that is grappling with that, to maybe just reevaluate where you're coming at that question from, like, what is the underlying issue? Yeah. And I would also say, people ask me a lot. I'm sure you get this a lot, too, to participate in things, whether it's just make a referral for one on one business or it's to be something, a part of something. Like a speaking summit or like a bundle or something. And the thing is, and I know this because I host those things a lot, one email or one LinkedIn post is not going to do anything.

[00:07:58 - 00:07:58]No.

[00:07:58 - 00:08:20]Like, literally nothing. One thing of anything is a waste of time. And so if I actually say yes to something like that, it's going to be effort, actual time, actual energy, active creative output. And I only have so many hours in the day.

[00:08:21 - 00:10:30]Yeah, I mean, let's talk a little bit more about that unpaid labor, because, like, obviously, if you're saying yes to doing a promotion or an activity, there's a lot of labor that goes into it. But I also think we ignore or don't realize all the labor that we're contributing. When if I'm running my business and I. Someone comes to me, they book a discovery call, they're like, hey, I'm looking for this kind of help. And I might be. That's not what I do. I'm not the person to help you. But, hey, my friend Jess is the perfect person to help you. Let me make that introduction, all that kind of stuff, all of that, not just the time that I'm putting in to have the discovery call to make a warm introduction, because referrals, the best referrals between, like, business to business, are very active, because I find, like, a lot, it's very easy for people to fall off that business development cycle. So you want to make it really easy for the other people to connect and hop on a call. So if I'm making a meaningful referral, that's time, too. But also, if I look at everything I've invested into getting people on the phone with me, into doing discovery calls in the first place, that is not just time. That's actual money. Right? Like, you and I have both played around with different advertising over the years. We have this podcast. I used to host this small, nonprofit podcast. That was a lot of time, right? And I used to spend, I still spend money on advertising, but, like, I could calculate that it would cost me, like, a few dollars a lead in Facebook ads, or I'd spend a couple thousand dollars in, like, ad with the e newsletter. Like, all of that is money I've invested to get people on the phone. And if I can't help them, why is it bad for me to recoup some of that? If you can help them and I can make that meaningful referral, absolutely.

[00:10:31 - 00:12:12]It's also not just that one email you send. I talk about this all the time. The most draining thing I do in my business is one on one video calls, and I know why people ask me to do them. It's a real tug and pull with me saying yes to, like, a coffee chat, because they just wipe me out. But I know that it's important for me and my business to both share what I do and also learn about what other people do. So it's the labor that goes into setting up that call. It's doing that call. It's the actual hard energy for my personality to listen and be on a one on one call to, like, learn what someone's skills are. It's then the mental load of me filing that away for when a referral comes in. Then it's the introduction, and then if you're actually a good referrer, which I consider myself to be, you don't just send off a referral and say, you know, love, light, peace be with you. I'm then following up. Hey, Beth, how did that conversation go? Was it a fit? Was it not? Can I get some feedback? Blah, blah, blah. This is now becoming hours of time to close the deal. Not for nothing, then, as I'm getting all fired up here. Then it's the actual, like, okay, there is a referral, right? You make the referral. Yay. Everyone's happy. Then there's the administrative side of, like, getting that agreement set up and getting the payment and following up on the payment, sometimes several times, and you're like, okay, this is actually like a job. This is a job.

[00:12:13 - 00:12:16]Absolutely. And I feel like way too much.

[00:12:16 - 00:12:18]Work to be nice about.

[00:12:18 - 00:13:02]Oh, my God. No, no, exactly. I mean, baked into what you were saying, which I think is worth drawing attention to, is your vetting process. Right. You're not just. You're not like, scouring the Internet, being like, who can I have referral agreements with? Because, you know, I want to make money, and I'm just going to pass people off to people and make money that way. No, but your business reputation depends on the quality of the referrals you send out. If you start sending out bad referrals in terms of, like, you connect someone to another business and that business is not good or doesn't treat that client well, it reflects back on you.

[00:13:02 - 00:13:04]This happened to me recently, okay?

[00:13:04 - 00:13:05]Oh, my God.

[00:13:05 - 00:14:11]Yeah, it was, it was, it was. No, no, no good. Someone who I had worked with before reached out wanting next round of support, and I was at capacity, and so I had just had one of these coffee chats. So someone was fresh on my brain, and I made an introduction, and it got all the way. They did a, you know, a decision call or discovery call all the way to proposal. And this person sent a proposal, first of all, past the deadline. They said they were going to send it. So, you know, I'll get you the proposal by Friday. They didn't get it till whatever date. And then the proposal was basically like a copy and paste of a past proposal, which, like, we all do, but it had the other organization's name, it had the wrong amount. And so my former client was like, I just like, don't feel good about moving forward. I get that everyone makes mistakes, but this feels like not the right foot to start on. And I was like, I am so sorry.

[00:14:11 - 00:14:12]Mortified.

[00:14:12 - 00:14:22]And also, I was like, this close to being like, okay, fine, we can work together, even though I have zero capacity, you know, but I will probably never refer to person ever again.

[00:14:22 - 00:14:36]No, I mean. I mean, one little thing. Nothing in the world, but, like, multiple things. And if it leaves your former client with a bad taste in their mouth, like, yeah, you cannot make that mistake twice.

[00:14:37 - 00:14:47]No, no. And so, but again, that is my labor. That is me. Then that back and forth, that is me. Like, you know, and your emotional labor.

[00:14:47 - 00:15:15]Right. Like, we always talk about special, like, the actual labor, but the emotional. Like, this is a client you care about, you care about their success, and now you're worried about, you know, helping them find the right person. And then if it doesn't work out, now it feels like it's your problem again. Right. Like it's your responsibility to help find someone else. So, yeah, it's. That's a lot. Yeah.

[00:15:15 - 00:15:54]But it can work. And so maybe we should talk about some ways that it does, because I would say partnerships and referrals are the most effective way that I earn money in my business now. It's not through a lot of one on one work kind of referrals, but I'm happy, happy to talk about that as well. Mine is more off of like an affiliate model, which we can certainly talk about, but it can work very, very, very well. And as you said, the most effective way to drum up new business. So let's maybe start with money.

[00:15:55 - 00:15:56]Like, yeah, how much?

[00:15:56 - 00:15:59]Yeah, how much? Because it's a question. People are always like, how much?

[00:15:59 - 00:17:34]Yeah. So I also do affiliate stuff in my business because I have group programs pretty much only right now. So. But I think it's about 10% for the programs. Now, these are high ticket programs. We've talked about affiliate stuff on this podcast before. Go back and listen to that episode because it should be more, if it's a low ticket offer as a percentage. But anyways, so, and then because I work with a bunch of other consultants, right. I usually encourage them about 10% for, again, for higher ticket, more service based contracts. And in the past I've had, if it's a really, really big contract, because some people might have like $20,000, $50,000 contracts. Usually with that, we make it a little less, like maybe five, 5% or something like that. But generally speaking, that's what I recommend, keeping it straightforward. Also having a clear way to track, because obviously, if you're not using affiliate, if, like, if it's one offs, you're not using affiliate software or anything like that. Usually I would say, like, warm introduction, right where I'm making an email introduction to a client directly copying. If it was you, I'd copy you and I'd say, hey, Jess, or, hey, client. This is Jess, who I told you about. She's the perfect person. Like, I always try and make, make it a really meaningful introduction so everyone feels prepared to continue the conversation.

[00:17:34 - 00:17:35]So. Yeah.

[00:17:35 - 00:17:55]And then because I work with a lot of people who do, like, ongoing retainer contracts. Sometimes it's for the first twelve months. Usually it's for the first twelve months. I have thought about and played around with different people around. Like, if the contract extends, what then? But I feel like that's just complicated.

[00:17:56 - 00:18:19]Yeah, I actually have a, like, I'm in a referral partnership right now with, um, a client I sunsetted and then basically was just like on a silver platter to the next person. Here you go. And so, because it's a twelve month agreement for them and the client, we're doing one 12th of the contract, so.

[00:18:19 - 00:18:22]And you. And they pay that out monthly?

[00:18:23 - 00:19:54]They do. For the. And so, like, you know, I think that it's almost $50,000 worth of work. So they're paying a 12th of that once a month every month for, I think, four months now it's on them to renegotiate and resecure their year two. And so if that works out for them, I am not expecting any type of referral. Yes, it will probably work out, and yes, it will probably result in, if not tens of hundreds of thousands of dollars of business. But, yeah, I don't expect anything past that first referral fee. If it was a project, like, if someone made a referral to me or I referred out for like an end of year campaign project or something, I would do 10% of a project fee. So I do one 12th of an annual contract, or I do 10% of a project based contract. That's what I recommend. Now, I will say it is always surprising to me who does and doesn't offer that up. You know what I mean? With this client that I just kind of passed off, this person was amazing. And from the get go was like, let's do this. Great. Awesome. But I am really surprised at how not often, like, how much I have to bring it up.

[00:19:54 - 00:20:15]Yeah. And I feel like, okay, so this is interesting because I would not expect people to be proactive about bringing it up. Like, if you sent me, okay, if I sent you a client, I would not expect you to say, hey, let me pay you a referral fee.

[00:20:15 - 00:20:16]Really?

[00:20:16 - 00:21:36]Now, knowing you, I would. But, like, if you were anyone else, because I don't think people think about it in that way. It's not prevalent enough. So I would, I typically, and I advise other people. I'm curious what you think. Like I usually say, I would much rather have a conversation with you beforehand because I know who you are, I know what you do, and I know I want to send people your way when they come to me for the service you provide. I wouldn't wait until I had that referral. I would have the conversation in advance, sign an agreement in advance. I used to do this with Heather Nelson. So we were like, you know, people come to me for things that she'd do great at. So we were just like, let's sign an agreement upfront generally for referrals. And then as things come our way, we don't have to, like, go back and forth or think about it. It's just done. So I usually recommend having the conversation upfront before I make referrals or before I even, like, think about making referrals. So I'm curious, like, have you done that? Have you had preemptive conversations? Or is it usually just like when there's a client kind of like on the table?

[00:21:37 - 00:22:01]Yeah. Okay, let me think. I mean, I think probably when you're having those coffee chats, that's probably the most natural place for that to come up from the get go. So I guess I would recommend doing that. I mean, I'm going to be honest, I'm mostly making referrals. Yeah, I'm less receiving referrals, and that's just because I only work with like one, maybe two clients.

[00:22:01 - 00:22:02]Yeah.

[00:22:02 - 00:22:26]In a one on one kind of way a year. And so that might be why it feels a little one sided just as it stands. Yeah, I have tried what you're saying. And, yeah, I guess, like, even when I've tried it, it's just surprising the, like, effort and follow up I have to do to be like, we're doing this, right.

[00:22:26 - 00:22:50]Tell me more about that conversation. Break it down for us because I think that's so interesting. So you have a client, a potential client on the call. You think, oh, Cindy would be amazing for this. We, you've never referred clients to me in the past and we don't have any agreement in place. What would you do? Like, tell me how you would navigate that then.

[00:22:50 - 00:22:58]Yeah, I mean, I think what I would probably do is, you know, the good circle back game to be like, what happened?

[00:22:58 - 00:23:05]Did you, like, even before, like, if I don't offer you a referral fee, like, are you mentioning that before you make the referral to me?

[00:23:06 - 00:23:07]No, not usually.

[00:23:07 - 00:23:10]Like, I probably you'll send me the client.

[00:23:10 - 00:23:38]Well, it just depends. So, like, if we've had a coffee chat or if we know each other or whatever, and that has been part of that conversation, but that conversation could have been two years ago. Like, I don't know. And so it just kind of depends. Like, sometimes I will give people a heads up, like, hey, I just chatted with someone. I'm going to send them a referral your way. That would be a great place to insert. Like, we still. Still good with that referral kind of.

[00:23:38 - 00:23:41]So there is some acknowledgement.

[00:23:41 - 00:24:01]Sometimes I think it just depends who I am referring to and how, like, close I am with that person otherwise. Yeah. Because if it doesn't come up that way, then I'm doing it in like, the kind of back and it. And it is way more messy.

[00:24:02 - 00:24:09]Yes. I could see that being, like, way more messy in terms of. Especially given people.

[00:24:09 - 00:24:15]I think it's because, though, I'm operating the way that I would do it.

[00:24:15 - 00:24:18]Which is not how most people think.

[00:24:18 - 00:24:22]No. And so then I guess, like, yeah. I'm just like, I need to stop that probably.

[00:24:22 - 00:24:32]Yeah, yeah, I think so. Well, I just think, like, that might even add more work, whereas.

[00:24:32 - 00:24:33]Yeah.

[00:24:33 - 00:24:48]Or I see the potential for either you or the other business to have a bad taste in your mouth. Right. Of, like, things not going according to your expectations or their expectations.

[00:24:48 - 00:24:48]Yeah.

[00:24:49 - 00:25:00]And that I see as, like, obviously you don't want that too, because if you think they're really good at their work, you want to send people their way. Right. And so, yeah, I definitely.

[00:25:01 - 00:25:05]You do it, though, do you? Every time you do, like, a coffee chat with someone, you bring that up.

[00:25:06 - 00:25:14]Well, no, because usually I don't just refer out willy nilly. Like, I have very specific people and I have to.

[00:25:15 - 00:25:20]And you're so. Because you have, like, your fractional. Right.

[00:25:20 - 00:26:40]I mean, the fractional community is different, and I don't take referral fees from that because they pay me for my program. That's like part of what they get as being part of our network. I'll give you the example. Back in the day, when I was doing fundraising work directly with organizations, so I had my go to list of people who I would trust for Heather was corporate, someone else. My friend Emma was major gifs. These were people that had an expertise that I felt like if anyone asks me, or like, my other friend Beth is like, strategic planning, or there's another company I would always recommend for strategic planning called openly. And so I'd be like, those are my go to. So I would have a conversation with them and say, like, I want to send people your way. If ever anyone comes to me for this kind of work, I'm sending them your way. Can we talk about referrals and how to manage that? Relationship, because usually I, you know, like, let's have a referral relationship, basically. And then we would have an agreement at that point so that we weren't waiting for the client, and then when a client comes, it's just implied.

[00:26:40 - 00:26:40]Yeah.

[00:26:41 - 00:26:41]Yeah.

[00:26:41 - 00:27:17]So I'm, like, trying to set myself in the seat of folks listening who maybe just, like, haven't done that, or they're like, okay, I want to start doing this, but I've already had the coffee chat. Like, how do I bring this up where it's not really awkward or out of the blue or whatever? Yeah, I mean, I kind of think it's okay to, like, announce yourself as, like, yeah, I'm doing it this way now. Send an email to folks, and if you want to be a referring partner back and forth, I have a, you know, an agreement that we can both sign. Yeah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:27:17 - 00:28:28]Yeah. It's only as awkward as we make it, right? It's the same thing in fundraising. Fundraising doesn't have to be awkward, but some people make it really awkward. It's. To me, I would. Yeah, I would say, like, based on this now. Yeah, based on this. This is a new strategy for me and what I would add to it. So if it was reciprocal, because a lot of the time, you and I are in unique positions where we're mostly referring out, but a lot of people actually want those clients coming in. And so what I would say is, and if you have clients that would be a good fit for me, where I could really help them in a meaningful way, you'll also get, like, that 10% referral, by the way, currently, I have capacity for one or two clients doing this type of work, which would mean if you sent anyone my way, you had. You could earn this much money and actually ask for the business at the same time, because we're so bad at asking for business, too. So I would absolutely say, like, here's. Here's what it would look like, and if you know anyone, here's what my capacity is right now.

[00:28:28 - 00:28:29]Yeah, I love that.

[00:28:30 - 00:28:30]Yeah.

[00:28:30 - 00:29:47]I would also say the more that we all do this, the more that this will be commonplace, and this will become the norm, not the exception. And it really is, like, high tides. And I think the only place that's, like, a little tricky, which maybe doesn't even apply to everyone, and I'll just use this example. This happened both with you and with Mila Martin, who has her catalyst community recently. So I received a request for a consultant, and I reached then out to Camila to then put it in front of her community. And, like, the connection was made between someone in the community and the nonprofit, but, like, it's now one part removed. So if the client works out, like, I don't know how I could get the referral. Do I get the referral fee? Does Camila get the referral fee? But, like, I don't really care. I want nothing but. Good for that. But it also has you recently, like, I passed someone to you who wanted a fractional fundraiser, so I made the introduction to you, and then you made the introduction to a fractional. And, like, whether or not it works out, like, that's where things. There's like, yeah, cut.

[00:29:47 - 00:29:50]So I can tell you, like, what my thoughts are on that.

[00:29:50 - 00:29:50]Yeah.

[00:29:50 - 00:30:17]And in that situation, I would be. So I. Because I. I'm not in competition with you again. Like, I don't take that referral fee. Even if it was on the table, I would much rather see you get that than not, like, than nothing. So what I would do in the future is if you asked me for a fractional fundraiser for a potential client of yours, I would connect you to the fractional fundraiser so you could make that introduction.

[00:30:18 - 00:30:20]Oh, interesting. Because what did we do?

[00:30:20 - 00:30:55]I think you just copied the organization in an intro to me, I think. And I just made that. Forwarded it, something like that. But, like, I would much rather you. A. I'm removing myself from the process, which removes for the client an extra step, which I think from a client experience is better for them. Right. If they. If they're getting the recommendation directly from you or the introduction directly from you, instead of you introducing them to me to introduce them to someone else. So.

[00:30:55 - 00:30:58]And you're still doing a little bit of unpaid labor.

[00:30:59 - 00:31:03]No, but it's not unpaid because in my. That's what they.

[00:31:03 - 00:31:03]Like.

[00:31:03 - 00:31:05]That is built into my program.

[00:31:06 - 00:31:07]Yeah, that's true.

[00:31:07 - 00:31:28]That is one of the benefits of going through my training or being a member of our network. So it is a unique situation. But in that case, like, I would much rather it be that way. I don't mind doing the extra work. I. At all. Like, I want what's best for the client, what's best for you, and what's best for the.

[00:31:28 - 00:31:32]Yeah, but then it is just a teeny, tiny bit tricky, because I have zero relationship.

[00:31:32 - 00:31:34]You don't know who with your fractional fundraiser.

[00:31:34 - 00:31:44]And, like, we certainly don't have any kind of referral agreement. And so then that's when, like, yeah, that back door kind of referral. Unless, I mean, you teach this to your fractional.

[00:31:44 - 00:31:46]They know. Yeah, they know.

[00:31:49 - 00:32:42]We're not saying this can't be a little complicated, but I think that it is worth the effort, especially if you find yourself in a position where you are doing this more often than you even think. I was going to say one more thing, just, I know we've talked about affiliates before, and maybe you've listened to that episode, maybe you haven't. So I just wanted to share numbers for what I do and if you're comfortable sharing it with you, doctor. So my affiliate products are usually less than $200 and so I tend to do a 50% referral fee. I would say that's probably on the more generous side. I feel like some people do 30 to 40, but my kind of philosophy is like, if you're literally bringing me a client, you deserve half.

[00:32:42 - 00:33:08]And those are scaled. Those are scaled programs, right? Yeah. You know, for people to sell those, they have to do a little bit more work. Right. Like it is emailing. You've seen, and we talk about on that episode, the people who are most successful in those affiliate income streams are the ones who are emailing a lot, doing the thing, doing the work. Not just like, yeah, like it is work.

[00:33:08 - 00:33:35]It is. And it's certainly not like I'll share with my LinkedIn audience one time, one day, once, because that doesn't work. I would rather you, like, not participate, but I just wanted to share those numbers as people are like doing that kind of thing. I think you're probably in a similar range if and when you do that kind of offer, which you're not doing.

[00:33:35 - 00:33:47]Right now, which I don't do right now. And I don't know if I'll ever do again, but I may. But no, for me, like my programs, my fractional fundraiser academy is increasing.

[00:33:48 - 00:33:49]Well, yeah.

[00:33:49 - 00:35:00]So what's 9000 canadian? It will be 7500 us, which if you do the calculations and the exchange rate is more money. But I love all of you Americans so much. You cannot think about canadian dollars. Like, you just don't have a concept of the exchange, which is totally so american of us. It's so funny. So, like, Canadians are used to paying for things in american dollars, which is fine. And so psychologically it feels less to Americans, I think, even though it actually is more, but not a huge amount more. Anyway, so it's 10%. Yeah. Okay, 10%, 10%. And then for impact and profit it's also 10%. And that is like 3900 to 4500 depending on a few things. Um, so yeah, those are like, big ticket, big ticket prices. Um, that one is an american impact, and profit is. Is american dollars. So, um, for recurring, what do you do?

[00:35:01 - 00:35:05]Because, like, I do 50% upfront and then 10% recurring.

[00:35:05 - 00:35:30]Right. But I don't have anything that has, like, upfront and recurring. Most of those programs have, like, payment plans. So it feels like it's recurring, but it's actually just a payment plan. It does have an end date. You can. I do have recurring membership in the fractional fundraiser, like, network, but that's only for people who've gone through the academy. And so it's kind of like a separate contract. Yeah.

[00:35:30 - 00:35:38]So the long of the short is that, like, if you are making business come my way, I believe you should get paid for that work.

[00:35:38 - 00:35:39]Yes.

[00:35:39 - 00:36:29]And my expectation is that that is reciprocated 100%, period, full stop, end of day. That's what that's about. And. And I. I just want to say, like, especially for folks who are just starting out, I'm also just going to say for anyone that's a woman or from the BIPOC community, especially, to ask these. To ask anyone to do unpaid labor is, in my opinion, unacceptable, but especially because I know that that's actually quite a request. Like, I get it a lot. I want to work with a copywriter who is, you know, Latina. I want to work with a copywriter who is from this community or who speaks this language or has lived experience or whatever the things are.

[00:36:29 - 00:36:29]Yeah.

[00:36:29 - 00:36:39]And that means that, again, just the work that goes into both sides should be compensated for.

[00:36:39 - 00:36:56]Yeah. It kind of feels like show the salary. Right. Like, the people who are. Who have the most to lose or historically been, like, marginalized in these processes, who've done the most unpaid labor, who, you know, for all.

[00:36:56 - 00:36:59]We're not. We should not be asking them to be nice.

[00:36:59 - 00:37:23]No. And so I definitely think about this as part of my overall commitment to equity. Right. And just, like, as part of all the tools in that toolkit of, I will only share job postings that have salary information. Yeah, same thing. I would expect people to be compensated for their work.

[00:37:23 - 00:37:27]Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's all we have to say about that.

[00:37:28 - 00:37:29]That's.

[00:37:29 - 00:37:30]Any questions?

[00:37:31 - 00:37:50]No. I'm so glad we had this conversation, though, because I feel like people have been circling around it a little bit. You've been talking about it in your circles? I've been talking about it in my circles, and I don't want to say this is the definitive conversation on referral.

[00:37:50 - 00:38:19]No, but I mean, can we just as we wrap, like, I remember someone at make it happen said something to the effect of, like, you know, whether they were, like, feeling bad or they were feeling almost, like, greedy. I'm not sure if that's the word they used. And I replied with, the more money I make, the more generous I can be.

[00:38:19 - 00:38:20]Yes.

[00:38:20 - 00:38:43]Across my employees, across my philanthropy, across my energy, just like my, like, output when I'm, you know, hunkered down and tight and at capacity, I can't do that stuff. And so I want you to think about that as well, around your ability to be generous. You know, my sense is that you can be more generous the more you.

[00:38:44 - 00:40:15]So we mentioned Camila, and she reached out to her amazing community, her amazing community. But she just posted something on LinkedIn, so just. This is a day ago. What day is it today? May 15, 15th. Okay. Go check out this post if you can. But she wrote this out so beautifully that I think it's just worth summarizing and repeating. But she said, felt the urge today to spell something out that I suspect will likely feel familiar to many small business folks. When you support us, you're supporting so much more than just us. And she goes on to describe, like, you are supporting my operations partner, our community coach, my accountant, who's another small business, the college student who I hire. You're supporting my whole community who benefits from the success of our work. You are, you know, showing my, you're supporting my kids who are watching their mom grow. This business, like, all of that is baked in to all of us getting paid for our work and getting paid well. Right? I mean, I. I feel like we could have a whole other conversation about. I hundred percent believe that the more successful each of us are in our business financially, the more we can impact organizations and the communities that we live in and work in and our families and all of that.

[00:40:16 - 00:40:50]So agree. Agree. And if anyone, especially who's listening, who identifies as a black or a black brown woman, Kamilah And a consultant. Kamilah's catalyst community is for you, like, full stop. It is there to support you in your transition from in house to consultant and beyond. I know she's working to grow it to 150 members this year, and I think she's about halfway there. So check it out. Check her out. Yeah.

[00:40:51 - 00:41:13]And don't be afraid to charge referral fees and ask for referral fees and to have these conversations, because ultimately, that is what it's about. Is like, money's not bad. It doesn't have to be scary. And the more we have these conversations. This is exactly what we started the podcast, right? The more we have these conversations, the more we uplift each other.

[00:41:13 - 00:41:15]So. Absolutely. Hear, hear.

[00:41:15 - 00:41:22]I am. We will see you all listeners next time.

[00:41:22 - 00:41:23]Bye.

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