“What we want to look for in a relationship is a true partnership, where we bring our expertise to the table and the consultant brings their expertise.” - Sara Miller

What do your clients want you to know?

Get ready for a power-packed panel discussion that will leave you inspired and motivated! In this episode of the Confessions Podcast, we've gathered three extraordinary nonprofit leaders who are here to share their wisdom and experiences of what it’s like for your clients. Join Jehan Seirafi, the visionary force behind Sunsar Maya, Sara Miller, the fearless advocate for organ donation through SODA National, and Cassy Horton, the superhero championing the cause for children of cancer patients with Pickles Group. Their unique experiences and practical wisdom will shed light on their expectations and preferences when it comes to working with consultants like you! 

Highlights:

• How do nonprofits identify suitable consultants?

• Understanding the approval process within nonprofits for hiring consultants.

• The role of professional development in nonprofit-consultant relationships.

• Highlighting what nonprofits value most about working with consultants.

• One crucial insight nonprofits wish all consultants knew about collaborating with their organizations. 

Connect with Jehan Seirafi:

LinkedIn linkedin.com/in/jehanseirafi

Connect with Cassy Horton:

LinkedIn linkedin.com/in/cassyhorton

Connect with Sara Miller:

LinkedIn linkedin.com/in/sara-miller-1398719a

Find Us Online:  https://www.confessionswithjessandcindy.com/

Connect with Cindy:

Cindy Wagman Coaching https://cindywagman.com/

The Good Partnership https://www.thegoodpartnership.com/

Connect with Jess: 

Out In the Boons: https://www.outintheboons.me

Transcript:

00:00:00 Cindy: Welcome to the Confessions podcast. I'm Cindy Wagman.

00:00:03 Jess: And I'm Jess Campbell. Where two former in house nonprofit pros turn coaches and consultants to purpose driven organizations.

00:00:11 Cindy: After years of building up our separate six figure businesses from scratch, we've thrown a lot of spaghetti at the wall and have lived to see what sticks.

00:00:20 Jess: We're on a mission to help other nonprofit coaches and consultants looking to start or scale their own businesses past the six figure mark by pulling back the curtain.

00:00:31 Cindy: Whether you're still working inside a nonprofit and thinking of one day going out on your own or you've been running your consulting business for years, you understand that working with nonprofits is just different. We're giving you access to the business leaders who serve nonprofits as their clients. You know, the people who truly get it.

00:00:52 Jess: No more gatekeeping. No more secrets. This podcast is going to give you an inside look at what running a successful nonprofit coaching and consulting business looks like. Basically, we're asking people how much money they make, how they get paid, and what has and hasn't worked in their businesses.

00:01:12 Cindy: Listen in as these leaders share their insights, their numbers, and the good, the bad and the ugly when it comes to building a nonprofit coaching or consulting business. We're going to empower you to make the power moves that give you the income and freedom you set out to create from day one.

00:01:28 Jess: You ready? Let's go. Hey, Cindy.

00:01:33 Cindy: Hey, Jess.

00:01:35 Jess: Let's do this. I'm so excited. So, for those listening, we hosted a panel discussion at the Make It Happen Conference a while back, and you are getting the exciting honor of listening to it as a bonus episode for our Confessions podcast, because I feel like this is listening that every single nonprofit consultant or coach could benefit from.

00:02:02 Cindy: Yeah. The panel is of people who work in nonprofits, who work with consultants and coaches and what they want you to hear. I think this is priceless.

00:02:17 Jess: So if you are curious about where they find their nonprofit consultants, how they make decisions about hiring nonprofit consultants, budgeting, pricing, decision making, deliverables, all the things, this next, I don't know, 50-ish minutes of listening is worth its weight in gold.

00:02:40 Cindy: All right, let's dive in.

00:02:41 Jess: How's everyone feeling? It's been a content heavy day. How are we doing in the chat? Everyone's still here? We get a little break after this before our last few sessions. I know it's, like, so hard for me to not just jam pack all of these days because there's so much we all want to learn. I don't know how to fix that. I don't know how to fix that. Okay, so we're going to go ahead and get started because I have a feeling we will take up most of the time. And if you all have ever been to my Raise More Together Summit, which is a conference for my nonprofit fundraisers, I always host a few sessions for the nonprofit fundraisers that feature, like, corporate donors, major gift donors, board members, foundations, so that the nonprofit fundraiser can hear directly from the horse's mouth, so to speak, about what they want when it comes to getting funding, how do you start a relationship? How do you craft a proposal? How do you build the relationship? How do you follow up? How do you say thank you? I feel like sometimes we're all just guessing, right? And the same goes for us in our businesses. I think we're out there wondering like, well, where are these nonprofit leaders and fundraisers who make these decisions about working with nonprofit consultants? How do they get this expense approved by the board? When does that budgeting process happen in the year? Where are they finding these people? Is it on social? Is it through blogs? Is it in podcast? All the questions, right?

00:04:34 Jess: And so I thought, why don't we just do that for us? Why don't we just not wander into the abyss, but we'll just ask directly. And so I've invited three, I would call friends, but they're also these amazing nonprofit leaders, executive directors and board members who are, I will say, a bit consultant friendly. That's how I know them. I know that that's not the case for every organization that you might want to work for, but I thought that this would be a good example. And so without further ado, I just want to put us back on Gallery so I can pin us as I do this. And I'm going to have you wave as I say your name. We have Jehan here who is the founder and executive director of Sunsar Maya, which is this amazing nonprofit that supports women and children in Nepal with all sorts of services ranging from education to career growth to healthcare to just life changing work. She's amazing. She's a mama. She lives in Southern California like me, and I'm so lucky to call her a friend.

00:05:52 Jess: We also have, here, Sara Miller, who is founder, co founder? Founder?

00:06:00 Sara: Founder.

00:06:01 Jess: Founder and board chair. She's not an employee, but she's the board chair of SODA National. SODA National or International? Just SODA.

00:06:14 Sara: National. Yes.

00:06:14 Jess: National, thank you. Which was started on behalf of her personal experience of losing a sibling and her sibling’s ability to be able to donate her organs, which is amazing. And now they are on college campuses across the United States. It's grown significantly since we've met. They're amazing. When, I think, I first was introduced to SODA, you all were raising like maybe $100,000 a year and now you guys are on like dozens, if not hundreds of campuses, like doing your thing, you have staff. It's just, like, so exciting to watch. And Sara also really shows up as a thoughtful, thought leader on LinkedIn, which she's going to talk more about.

00:07:07 Jess: And then let me find her. We've also got last but not least, we've got Cassy Horton, who is the executive director of a super fun nonprofit called Pickles Group, which supports the, I don't want to mess this up because I get you in bright spot mixed up sometimes, the children or the parents? The children of those whose parents are experiencing cancer.

00:07:32 Cassy: Exactly. Kids of adult cancer patients. Yes.

00:07:35 Jess: Yes. And they provide such important therapies, sibling support, just like really wrapping up the kids so that no one gets lost and forgotten while their parents are going through something super consuming. Right. And so these are three amazing nonprofit leaders, three amazing people, and we are going to find out what it is that these folks want when it comes to working with nonprofit consultants. The last thing I'll say is that ICON, Cindy and I had this phone where people could leave messages about their… basically deliver a confession and it was kind of a 50/50 split of nonprofit consultants sharing their confessions. But it was also a lot of nonprofit leaders talking about something they wish consultants knew. And we are going to release the audio so you can hear it directly from them. But I can't tell you how many people had real negative experiences working with nonprofit consultants. A lot of people feeling, like they are being talked down to. And it was just like, I was almost kind of shocked because I just can't imagine not working with a nonprofit in general. That's not my absolute partner. So I also just want to say, that's again, why I just wanted to have this conversation so we can hear the real, real from these three people on their experiences working with consultants so that we can move forward in our businesses really understanding all the things. Right.

00:09:20 Jess: So I think I covered introductions, but maybe we should do something fun, like what's your sign and what's your enneagram type or something. Cassy, how about you start?

00:09:35 Cassy: Hilarious. So. Hi, everyone. Cassy Horton. I'm in St. Louis today. I'm actually visiting hospitals, but I live in Los Angeles. We're a national organization. We've got folks across the country. And the funny thing, I think, Jess and I, if you want to subscribe to any of these, there's some simpatico there. I'm a Scorpio. I'm a hard Scorpio. November 15. And then also my enneagram, I'm not as deep into that, but I am a three. I know that I am a three. So, yeah, I know there's a lot going on between the two of us.

00:10:09 Jess: Really. Ultimate intensity, the ultimate.

00:10:12 Cassy: Whatever.

00:10:14 Jess: Watch out.

00:10:15 Cassy: Go down that path. But if you ask my partner, my partner is a Leo. He is very much a Leo. And he says, I am very much a Scorpio.

00:10:24 Jess: Yeah, that's fun. Okay, Jehan. How about you?

00:10:30 Jehan: Hi, everybody. So I'm a Libra. I think I'm on the cusp, September 25th. I like, go in between, and I don't follow them well. However, I read my first book on enneagrams literally two weeks ago. I had no idea what it was. So who knew I would be prepared for this? It's called the Buddhist enneagram, which I thought was really interesting. It's a Buddhist take on it. And I discovered that I am six, and that feels very true.

00:10:58 Jess: Okay. And last but not least, Sara.

00:11:04 Sara: Hi, I'm calling in or joining you guys, all from Tel Aviv, Israel, where I moved about a year and a half ago, and I am a Cancer, and I have no idea in enneagram. I did it a few years back, but I don't remember.

00:11:19 Jess: Oh, my gosh. Okay. Yes. And I am so grateful because it is not early where you live. So thank you a bajillion for being here. Of course, my questions aren't loading. They're going super slow. Oh, wait, here we go. Come on, come on, come on. Oh, gosh. And is Billy boy going to be difficult right now ? He just might be. We might just have to ignore him. Raise your hand in the comments if you have a super needy and annoying dog like me. Okay, so we kind of covered who you are and what your nonprofits do, and you obviously have experience working with consultants, so maybe just break it down for how you have worked with various nonprofit consultants over your time working in the different nonprofits. Maybe, Sara, let's start with you.

00:12:12 Sara: Yeah, so I would say there's three main categories of consultants that we've worked with, and in general, we try to work with consultants when we feel that we have a skill set that's missing. So the first category would be revenue or, like, to increase our revenue. So fundraising or lead generation, whether for chapters or donors. The second would be strategic support. We just actually hired a consultant who's going to be helping us with strategic planning and other kind of partnership related questions where we feel like we could use an outside perspective. And then the third would be community support. So we've paid in the past for memberships so that we feel less alone in the work and that we can benefit from those network effects. [Those are the few ones].

00:12:58 Jess: Yeah, that's super helpful. Jehan, how about you?

00:13:03 Jehan: Yeah, the majority that we've worked with is really focused on development work, whether communications and fundraising, and I've personally worked with two, kind of one off, like Sprint Week, one time workshop type of consulting as well as ongoing coaching.

00:13:27 Jess: Got it. Great. And how about you, Cassy?

00:13:32 Cassy: Yeah, the organization I'm working for right now, we're two years old. I was employee number one. We're very much in startup mode, so thinking about how at that unique point in our growth we can work with consultants is a really interesting different challenge than my prior organization. I worked at a large education policy organization where we had a lot of, kind of consistent go to. So at my past organization, we would bring in a lot of consultants on communications, public affairs. Oftentimes our consultants were more folks who maybe had specific relationships that we were looking to build and develop. But also a lot of what we did was campaign oriented. And so whether it was a communications campaign or bringing somebody in for an actual kind of public policy campaign, those were discrete projects. So it's really easy for us to say, like, we're going to work on this, it's going to start, it's going to end, we need more capacity. I'll also add that, and I don't know if this is true for other organizations, but I got my MBA with a social impact focus.

00:14:49 Cassy: I think a lot of folks who have pursued MBAs within the nonprofit sector might be a little bit more open to the concept of consulting just because there's so much of, like a lot of folks who go to school to get an MBA end up being consultants. I think about that too. I often look for consultant support for free, which might be a problem for this group. But I'm thinking about, like can folks do what I'm looking for pro bono? Can I bring in somebody to do pro bono support? That doesn't always solve my problems. So a couple examples, right now in, startup stage, we're definitely thinking a lot about fractional employees. So maybe not folks who are coming in as explicit, like project based consultants, like, let's get this done and then it's over. But rather I don't need a full time X yet, but I could sure use a quarter or half time X.

00:15:50 Cassy: I'm seeing really kind of like a big mental shift with a lot of nonprofits that I talk to where they're really interested in fractional employees. And so maybe even like the language. It's basically a consultant, but it's not, but that's something that we're thinking a lot for fundraising and development and bringing folks in to do fundraising support, but more fractional so they're around on an ongoing basis. So definitely I've plugged in. Like design is often one that we plugged in on building a campaign, somebody with more of an art or design focused background, discrete projects, and then kind of this fractional concept as we're growing and we don't need someone full time for a position, are some of the ways that we're thinking about consultants and partnerships with folks who aren't full time employees.

00:16:40 Jess: Yeah, super helpful. Okay, so then how did you find these mysterious consultants? Because we actually had sessions yesterday where we're talking about visibility and especially, as small business owners, it's not necessarily our natural state to put ourselves out there. But I'm sure as you guys are going to talk about, you can't find what you can't see. So I'm just curious, where did you find your nonprofit consultants that you've either worked with, been in their community, purchased a course from? Jehan, let's start with you.

00:17:18 Jehan: I know you guys are going to all hate the answer, but it's social media. Well, I think it started when the first time we worked with a consultant. And actually I should back up because Cassy, I hadn't thought about the idea of it being fractional employment, but we do, we're a small team, and most of our team kind of would fall into that category. So putting it into that perspective, I think that makes sense. But in terms of the first time that we did start working with a consultant, it was on social media. And then I think from there, it's kind of like a very small world where you start connecting with one consultant and then you see kind of who's in their orbit and what they do. And that's just how it's kind of grown from there, where I've been connected in different ways based on what our needs have been.

00:18:05 Jess: Just to follow up on that, though, were you out there searching and on what platforms were you or did a nonprofit consultant start following you or your nonprofit? I'm just really curious as to the process.

00:18:19 Jehan: Yeah, I'm trying to remember back, the first time when we even started doing this. But I would say now, I have kind of a nonprofit list in my Instagram, basically, and Instagram and LinkedIn, and follow those people just to see kind of what they're talking about. And then when something comes along that's really interesting and seems like it would align with us, we have done that. And then we're currently looking for a consultant for something else. And so I've actually had conversations with the people that I've worked to prior to this to say like, hey, we are looking for support in this area. Who would you recommend? So it's become word of mouth.

00:18:55 Jess: Totally. How about you, Sara?

00:18:59 Sara: I'm thinking back to how I found you actually, originally, Jess, and I think I literally Googled nonprofit fundraising on, not Googled, I Instagram nonprofit fundraising, found you. And then once I was in your orbit, I think a lot of the referrals I've gotten, I just send you a message on Instagram and I say, who can you recommend that does X? So really it becomes word of mouth. And then recently, I've also been hanging out on LinkedIn a lot more, and so I'll see who other consultants that I follow or have worked with, are engaging with, and then I just keep following people. And so the people that are popping up on my LinkedIn feed, I'm starting to build a virtual one way relationship with, if you will. So I learn what they do and then I start thinking, is this something that could benefit my nonprofit? And then if so, I'll bring it to our team to learn more about.

00:19:50 Jess: I love that. And for the introverts listening in, I think what Sara said is so powerful because what I heard is that it's not necessarily always the posting that catches her attention, but it's the engagement. And I see so many, I mean, it really irks me, nonprofit consultants out there, but they do no engagement. And it's like the absolute opposite point of social media. So it's like you have to be engaging, you have to be commenting, you have to be doing thoughtful outreach. You can't just be like inbound, waiting. And if you're someone that is a little hung up on being that thought leader, like really putting yourself out there, you can be so much, probably more powerful in the comment section across LinkedIn and Instagram. And that's going to make you seem really engaging, really thoughtful, super smart in a relationship building kind of way. So thank you for saying that because I think that that's really true and we could all use the dose of doing the engagement part. Okay. How about you, Cassy? Where did you find any consultants you've worked with?

00:21:02 Cassy: Yeah, I'm really trying to challenge myself around the way I think about this because the baseline answer is often referrals from other folks, especially if it's just a discrete project, it's a short time commitment and you don't necessarily have as much. It's not like I got my three months to ramp somebody up and I'm really investing in them. I need them to be able to come in and produce results pretty quickly. And having somebody that I know, vouch and say they're able to do that, they're really effective, makes a really big difference for me. But also from, recruitment perspective, in terms of diversity, in terms of giving folks opportunities who are maybe outside of my network, that can pose a little bit of a challenge. So I know, like, almost everybody I talk to in terms of consultants, they're asking each other, do you know someone who does X? I've got this issue and so I'm really leaning on folks that I know to make referrals a lot of the time and a lot of my friends, I think, who are most successful in the consulting space, even without social media, it's that word of mouth. They just kind of have a group of people that they've done great work for who, if asked, will tell other folks, and that's kind of generating leads in and of itself. So that's a big thing.

00:22:26 Cassy: I do think other things I'm super interested in or that are helpful, I definitely see things on LinkedIn, but I wouldn't necessarily shoulder tap somebody just off of LinkedIn. What really helps me is being able to get a taste of what you're up to and things like classes, like low hanging fruit where I can get on or you do a webinar or you put out a white paper or something like that, kind of allow me to try before I buy a little bit. And that helps me so much in terms of making a decision about whether or not like a three month commitment or project, it would be worth partnering with you. So even if it's like portfolio things where you're showing some of your past work or client testimonials, having a little bit more in the window shop really helps me make a better decision sooner. I think sometimes one of the things I struggle with too, and this is a decision that an organization would be making based on their needs. One of my hang ups about consultants is sometimes I need execution, not just strategy. I got a lot of strategy. I got a lot of big brains. I got a lot of board members with opinions, but I also need to get stuff done, and so I can struggle sometimes. Like how can you show me that you can execute and actually produce products? And so seeing work product is really helpful for me.

00:23:56 Jess: That show-not tell type of marketing. We just came from a session on case studies. Like, if this isn't a red underline for that, I don't know what is. I want to just say maybe this is because these are the two platforms that I mostly hang out on. But you all three said, like, LinkedIn and Instagram. I didn't hear any Twitter. I didn't hear any YouTube. I also didn't hear any podcasts, which, based on yesterday's conversation, everyone's like, how do I get on all the podcasts? Are you guys listening to nonprofit podcasts?

00:24:31 Jehan: It's just the amount of time.

00:24:34 Jess: So, no? Okay.

00:24:34 Jehan: I have a long running list.

00:24:37 Jess: Yeah, okay.

00:24:39 Jehan: I will… well, my mike’s on, I will jump in. Cassy, you totally made me remember. One of the things I didn't mention was workshops and webinars, like, raise more together. That, like getting 30 minutes of that person, you're like, oh, I can see that what they're offering really does align with what we need. That's made a big difference as well, as opposed to just, websites are great, Instagram, like snippets are great, but hearing what they actually have to say and offer is really helpful as well.

00:25:07 Jess: Got it. Okay. Sorry. Sara, Cassy, are you guys listening to the nonprofit podcasts of the world?

00:25:14 Sara: I listen to a few, and I find that… I think, because I'm not in the work as much on a day to day basis as a board member, it's a little bit easier for me to do it because I'm not spending my 40 hours a week on the job, because I work a different full time job. And so I'm sometimes sending my favorite episodes to our full time team and saying, you got to check out this particular episode. And I don't find that they're listening to quite as many of those podcasts. But I really love listening to podcasts, and I do think when there's an ad for their own programs or for others, is someone that would be relevant for us.

00:25:54 Jess: Okay, cool. So we got one out of three. One out of three are on the podcast [for you].

00:25:59 Cassy: Also, I think podcasts are hard in terms of time commitment, and if I'm going to listen to a podcast or listen to something, I want to listen to something fun and not about work, because I don't think very often. I actually think that for me personally, blog posts, articles, like things I can skim through that are actionable, like case studies. I will totally give you my email contact info to get that PDF case study where I can learn something through it on my own time. So I tend to read more in terms of just my time allocation. It's more helpful for me.

00:26:43 Jess: Super helpful. I love that answer. Okay, so now let's move into the money piece. Let's talk about your approval process, because when we work in nonprofits, it's just a little bit different. It's not always as simple as, like, yes, I want to make that investment. So let's start with you, Cassy. What is the approval process within your specific organization? I know you said that you worked for an education policy focused organization before, so maybe just because you have that experience, you could speak between the two on what that process is like.

00:27:18 Cassy: Yeah, so I have a fair amount of flexibility in terms of approvals. Like, we need to get contracts over $10,000 approved by the board. So that's pretty low hanging fruit. I have a very entrepreneurial board that looks at our annual budget as a starting point where things will, of course, evolve and change. So I have a lot of flexibility to come and make the case that we raised more money or we've got an unanticipated need, and here's why we should invest in something above a $10,000 contract. Also, I'd just say, I've had conversations with folks both at this organization and my past organization, where not trying to be shady, but that threshold for board approval. How can we create a world where I don't need to go to the board? Let's just move on this. So maybe your contract is $9,000 and you do two less deliverables or whatever it is so we can get moving.

00:28:17 Cassy: So I think knowing, kind of, what those boundaries are and trying to remove some bureaucracy is often really helpful. And so even as a consultant, like, yes, you might have some hard lines around income or whatever it is, but also, can you be flexible where we can remove some of the bureaucracy that's in place so we can come to an agreement more quickly? At my prior organization, I had a lot of flexibility around my team budget and same sort of thing. We could be pretty creative with bringing folks in up to an even higher threshold. I think our board, we were like 20, depending on the year, like, $25 to $40 million organization, and I wouldn't need to bring anything over 25,000 to the board. So different thresholds. But that, for me, once I got to take it to the board, things get stickier and it's harder. And so I've also appreciated, for example, even with, I know Jessica has offered classes that I've taken advantage of, that makes it really easy for me to plug into something and get learning. It's even a different consideration because we're not issuing 990s. It just feels a lot easier. Or not 990s, 1099s. So the less bureaucracy and thinking about how to grease those wheels, I think the better and the easier it is to work together.

00:29:42 Jess: Super helpful. How about you, Sara? What's it like? And you are the board, so I'm super curious.

00:29:50 Sara: I would say when we started, when I first hired Nicole, who's our program director two years ago, we had a policy that every expense over $250 was approved by me as we were building trust. And then about a year after that, we realized… I realized, like, I'm not actually adding anything to this process because every expense makes sense. So then we transitioned to over 1000, and then we graduated from that and we just said everything that's not in the pre approved budget. So really she can spend money that we've budgeted for without any approval from me. And we have two different buckets of money that are in the budget. We have a professional development budget. Each employee that we have, we have two, gets $2,000 per year towards professional development. And then we have, external or non professional development consulting budget where we have a few thousand dollars. And if we feel like some consultant can fill a need that doesn't fit into those buckets, we just have a discussion and figure out if we're under budget in another area and then we can make it work. But hopefully that structure is helpful.

00:31:08 Jess: And what would you say is that time process or like, length? Not process, length.

00:31:17 Sara: How long does it take for us to make a decision? Pretty much, immediate. If we want to work with someone, we work with them.

00:31:23 Jess: Yeah, I love that. I know that that's unfortunately not the case at a lot of organizations, but that's helpful to know that they do exist. Jehan, how about you?

00:31:37 Jehan: I guess you can kind of separate them into different buckets. We have our part time contract consultant, but those team members we do work for, they do work with us ongoing. So they're really seen as part of the team that's already worked into the budget. It's an ongoing line item. And then we do have a line item for professional development. And that's just kind of like a bucket for any employees or team members. So essentially, if they come across something that they want to do, we're much more casual. They bring it up to me. And if it's reasonable and it works and it's something that we think would help with what they're working on, then we go for it. Our board is much more hands off, with the exception of, like, once a year reviewing the budget. They just let me run with it, basically.

00:32:25 Jess: Yeah, totally. Cassy, both Jehan and Sara kind of talked about their professional development piece, but how does that play out at Pickles Group. Do you have a budget set aside for professional development or just various consulting needs or how does that work?

00:32:42 Cassy: Yeah, I think about consulting needs as being different. So professional development we have, hopefully it will grow over time, but every staff member has a $500 professional development budget. And that, again, I think is a great reason to offer a class, offer a webinar, whatever it is. That's something I really encourage my team, like go out, find the things. And a lot of times I think folks like you can produce more relevant, kind of in the moment, strategic, thoughtful content than a lot of organizations out there. So folks would not need approval to use that. And then from a consulting perspective, we don't have a separated line item budget for consultants. Those are… we think about as we're doing strategic planning or as we're taking on a specific initiative, whether within that project budget, there's additional human capital support capacity that we need. And we won't say consultant per se, but we might, within that budget, add a line item for, I guess it would be… I'm trying to think of what we'd call it. It might be a facilitator. We want to facilitate [the] Equity Task Force over the summer, where we also want a third party to come in. So we'll name it a different thing depending on what the thing is, but fit that right into the budget for the specific project or initiative. Yep.

00:34:15 Jess: Okay, cool. So now let's switch gears a little bit and talk about, like what is one or two things you've just really appreciated working with a fellow consultant? Because, like, you all have talked about fractional employees, consultant, like, you're always weighing who and why you work with certain people. Could each of you speak to, like, what's one or two things you've just really appreciated from working with a consultant? Cassy, let's just loop back to you.

00:34:48 Cassy: Yeah, I think kind of the inverse of what I said earlier in terms of, if I need strategy, that's great. But I think that when I've got somebody that I can go to, we can have a lot of this, especially in a virtual world. Depends on being able to have really tight conversations and clear communication and get really clear on deliverables and then moving the ball forward. So I think my working relationship with somebody and how am I seeing output, outcomes, like the creation of things is the big difference maker. And so if I can see execution, if I can see deliverables, if we had a conversation and suddenly there's, whatever, a memo or there's something, that just helps me feel like this investment is really worth it. I think communication really differentiates, like a strong consultant for me.

00:35:48 Cassy: And then, yeah, I think being able to translate some of that strategy right, like some of these concepts into execution and action, that's a very specific skill. But I think it's the one that really differentiates the consultants that I've had the best working relationship with, but also bringing your own creative ideas, like asking a lot of questions, challenging. Sometimes, I think being an effective consultant is pulling out of us the organization, like what we already know we ought to be doing, but sometimes we don't know what we should be doing. And so kind of figuring out which of those two paths this is. And I think there's always value add that you can bring. So both being a really great listener, but also offering a unique perspective as we're baking the cake together, those are valuable things. And I think knowing which one of those two and checking in on that helps you set, create clear alignment from the beginning, so you've got shared expectations of what you should be doing together.

00:36:56 Jess: I love that. Okay, Jehan, how about you? It's something you've just really appreciated about your consultant.

00:37:04 Jehan: Yeah. So I'm a co-founder and ED. I came to this from a complete… I was in book publishing before this. So learning as I go and kind of, little by little, built on it. And so I would say two things that came with working with consultants and coaches is, just the ideas, right? Like taking out of our existing road and saying like, okay, let's try something new, let's do something different. But being presented with these ideas, with outcomes to back it up, we've seen this work, and this is why you should try it. So that's been one. I'd say the other one is just honestly, confidence. Like, as a co-founder and ED, new ED, working with some of these people has really given me the confidence to do things differently, especially in the fundraising space. Fundraising does not come naturally to, I'm guessing, a lot of the people. For those of you that are working on fundraising, it's a learned skill, but also it takes confidence. And so that was something that I hadn't really thought about prior to working with people, and that's been really nice. And I'd say the third piece is honestly templates. We're a small team or a small nonprofit, and it's wonderful to have people come in and say, like, these are wonderful ideas, you should implement them. We don't always have the ability to do it with our resources. And so I really do tend to go with consultants and coaches that can offer us something that can help us along the way, as opposed to just writing down the map and handing it over to me.

00:38:47 Jess: That's really helpful. Sara?

00:38:51 Sara: Couldn't agree more with what you both said. I think that the templates that you mentioned just now, is something that's so helpful for us, people that can actually help us execute. I think one of the most useful things we've ever bought was your $23 webinar, Jess, that you did in January. And Jess did not pay me to say this.

00:39:14 Jess: I was like, what did I do?

00:39:16 Sara: Yeah, so we signed up for her $23 webinar, where she taught us about how we could start a monthly giving program and by templates at the end, that was kind of the call to action. But throughout the webinar, she told us what to put in email one, two, three, and four. And so we took that idea of launching the monthly giving program and then executed on our own. We didn't even end up buying the templates because we used some of the templates that we had bought from you previously in a different purchase, and we kind of reworked those, put it into those 1-2-3-4 steps, and then launched the monthly giving program. So basically for $23, we were able to get the idea and then actually execute because of the framework you laid out. So that was an example where you really provided both strategy and execution. We feel, actually quite good on the execution front, so that's why sometimes we don't want to buy, necessarily a very expensive offering. Even a few hundred dollars for us felt expensive on a template. But in the past, if we're going to launch a fundraiser and we have a short timeline, then buying a template, for example, is really helpful for us. So I really love practical ideas that come with execution support, especially when strapped for time.

00:40:36 Jess: I love that. Okay, now let's flip it. Not every single experience you've ever had working with a consultant has been a plus, stellar. So what's one thing you could have done without? Or what's one thing you see out there you feel like consultants are trying to pitch you on, and you're just like… And honestly, I know that this might be hard for you to be… like answer, but your brutal honesty is really helpful feedback for us. So thank you in advance for your answers. Sara, let's maybe start with you, if you're okay, and we'll loop back.

00:41:14 Sara: I think what we want to look for in a relationship is a true partnership, where we bring our expertise to the table and the consultant brings their expertise. And it can be really frustrating for me when someone doesn't ask a sufficient amount of questions, because I know how complicated the organ donation space is from the many mistakes I've made on the journey. And so because the organ donation space is just structured differently than other spaces, I really value when someone says, okay, how do your partnerships work? What do those partners value? Really, they dig deep into asking good questions. I had a consultant that we just started working with, ask me, but why do you prioritize educating students in addition to registering them as organ donors? And we had never thought about that question, why do we do both education and registration? And then on the call, we went through our answer, and what do you know? Now I'm using that language all the time when I'm talking to donors and partners, because it's a really thoughtful question, and I had the answer inside of me, but no one had ever really asked me that question before. So I really love when both… we're coming as partners with the consultant and their expertise to kind of solve a problem together.

00:42:31 Jess: I love that. Super helpful. Jehan, how about you?

00:42:38 Jehan: Thankfully, almost all the consultants we've worked with has been a positive experience. The only thing that really comes to mind is not having follow up after whatever takes place. So if it's a workshop or if it's a project, the experience of just like, the door shuts and then there's no more communication after that to even follow up, like, hey, did it work? What happened? Give us some feedback, I think, would be beneficial both to the consultant and to us. It’s like, okay, well, this didn't work. How can we change it in the future? So that experience has been kind of the one off putting thing, in terms of just no follow up. Once the check is written, things have just shown.

00:43:26 Jess: Yeah, that's cool. Super helpful to hear that from your voice, though. How about you, Cassy?

00:43:35 Cassy: Yeah, so I think the big thing for me, if I am bringing in somebody new to the organization, like, paying probably a bit of a premium for this type of support, I don't want to be like, project managing you. I want you to be super proactive and affirmative and follow up and send me the agenda, send me the notes, like, all the things, because I hired you, because we don't have enough time. We need more help. So I think, they’ll step back, I'm going to plug in and you tell me what you need, doesn't work. I think more of that, or at least for me, I wouldn't be worried about coming across as too overbearing or is this too much, sort of thing. We'll let you know if it's too much. So just taking some of the admin execution, project management, and really owning that, it is a huge difference maker for me in addition to your content expertise, your support, like, schedule the Zoom. You send the invite, just like the smallest things, if you can take all that and really own that, it's a huge difference maker for me in terms of experience.

00:44:50 Jess: Okay, amazing. So, as we… I’m gonna ask one more question and then we'll open it up for Q&A. If there's one thing, one, that you wish more nonprofit consultants knew about working with organizations like yours, what would it be? Let's start with Jehan.

00:45:17 Jehan: It's a really good question. The only thing that comes to mind is understanding the different kinds of nonprofits. We're a very different organization than Cassy’s or Sara's in terms of not only the work that we do, but like, our budgets. Right. So I think certain budgets in certain organizations work for certain consultants. And just understanding that. I didn't want to say this with the previous question, but I have had an experience with a consultant who was like, oh, well, if she can't afford us, then she's not right for us. And it was really disheartening to hear. We are working hard, we are doing good work. So just kind of understanding that and being mindful of that.

00:46:06 Jess: Definitely.

00:46:07 Jehan: And they will say–

00:46:08 Jess: Oh, go ahead.

00:46:08 Jehan: Sorry. There's not a whole lot out there for smaller nonprofits.

00:46:14 Jess: Do you mean on the do it for you side of the work or do you mean like courses or what do you mean?

00:46:20 Jehan: Kind of all of it. Things aren't… I think it's growing, but especially when we first started out looking for… things just weren't accessible to us at all place, now, where it is easier. But, yeah.

00:46:33 Jess: Okay, that's helpful feedback. How about you, Sara?

00:46:38 Sara: I mentioned that I really like practical support earlier, so I was trying to rack my brain for specific things I could tell you all. So I would say I've signed up for a lot of nonprofit consultant email lists and one of my biggest frustrations is when the emails take like five minutes to read. And so I love hearing nonprofit consultant stories and takeaways. But one of the pieces of feedback, or things I would want people to know is just make sure that we're not wasting tons of space, because I really value what experts have to say. And I would consider all of you experts, but just make sure it's in a format that's easy for people that want to buy and that want to learn in order to digest.

00:47:26 Jess: Super helpful. I said in the chat, you must hate my emails then. Mine are not short though and I know. Okay, Cassy?

00:47:41 Cassy: Yeah. I think there are different ways to be an effective consultant. But for me, on the user or buyer end of things, it's so much easier to make a decision if you kind of have a really specific lane. And I think this goes for any product or whatever. What are you good at? And you're really, this one thing and it's super easy for me to tell and maybe today I don't need that thing, but in the future when I do, this is their jam, I think. General nonprofit consultant, I'm like, I don't know, what do you do? Could you be good? Could you be bad? Are you going to be good at this one project? It's hard for me to tell and shop. So I think I really value whether it's through your website, through the things you're putting out there, the way you're communicating. I am most likely to follow, connect, subscribe when it's really clear what you do and how you do it, even if it's not the way I might want to do it. Asking for major gifts and you've got this really aggressive strategy and maybe that's not how I want to do it, but interesting, I want to learn. So I think having a sharp perspective and picking a lane and sticking to it really helps me figure out, it draws me in more than just a journalist.

00:49:04 Jess: That is such a gem what you just said. That is so… it’s niching, so difficult and scary to do. But all successful nonprofits that I see on a really fast trajectory of their business have all done that well from the beginning. So, yes. Okay. This was so helpful. I have not looked at this chat barely at all. So we have about 10 minutes left. Does anyone have any questions?

Someone asked, and I think, Cassy, you replied about RFPs. Jehan, Sara, do you all do RFPs? No. Personally, I don't respond to RFPs. They are so difficult. One question from Diana. How are fractional relationships typically contracted, structured? What sort of profile are you looking for? I don't know. Cassy, since you seem to be our person that is hired for that, maybe you can speak to that.

00:50:14 Cassy: It's interesting. This is our first foray with our development role, and it's a suggestion that came from some of our board members. But I know a lot of for profit startup baby organizations who've got their full C-suite, and it's five people, chief marketing officer, chief strategy officer, and they're all working, like, 20%, or they've got another side hustle. And so I think this is really like a for profit startup strategy where we're looking for a high level employee. We're looking for somebody who's maybe interested and okay with doing both strategy and execution. We want to keep them on for a longer period and kind of incubate a role. And, yeah, it's effectively, for us, a part time employee, but we're open and negotiating in terms of what that part time looks like. And we're not saying we need somebody to execute 20 hours a week. We're saying this is more of a role so we'd be open to a retainer. We're just saying we say, for example, with a development role, we don't think we have enough work for a full time employee yet, and we wouldn't mind you doing other stuff. So that might be a little different than how other folks think about fractional. But that's kind of the way we're scoping it is like we don't have enough for a full time role yet. And we're willing to talk to you about how we structure that relationship which is a little fuzzy and hard to kind of wade your way through, but that's my answer.

00:51:48 Jess: Super helpful. Okay, now the questions are coming in. Elandria. Is that how you pronounce your name?

00:51:58 Elandria: It's Elandria.

00:51:59 Jess: Elandria. So pretty. Asks, can you share some examples of how you measure success, particularly when making a case to continue and/or expand scope of work with a consultant? Anyone want to take that? How do you measure success?

00:52:20 Sara: I'll start. I think there was an earlier comment about, like try before you buy. I think if I see value in a lower cost offering, like maybe a webinar, for example, that was $23 or a template, then I'm more willing to engage in a longer term contract or then resign a contract for a team. So I think whatever we set out with a specific goal like launch a campaign, and then we would discuss internally if that campaign was successful, if we felt good working with the person we really prioritize, working with people that bring us positive energy and that make us feel good, not just the results. So if we feel like things are aligned, then it's much easier for us to continue the conversation.

00:53:09 Jess: I love that. Anyone else want to jump in on that? We have more questions.

00:53:15 Heather: I'll just piggyback on that too a little bit, if that's okay. Jess?

00:53:19 Jess: Yes. Heather. She sits in both seats right now. So we are lucky.

00:53:24 Heather: So I think to that end, like getting in with something cheaper or less expensive, but also having clear results of what was going to happen. I recently engaged with a marketing firm that I've worked with for years and I just needed some support on strategy side, but it really didn't work out the way I had envisioned because there was not that clear definition and so we rechanged the scope of the project. So I think having that really clear expectation of what you're going to get at the end or a project that you need help with would be really helpful from an ED perspective.

00:54:06 Jess: Totally. I also want to say that I haven't heard, you guys can push back on me. Anyone say anything about needing things to be free? Low cost is not the same as free, and so keep that in mind. When you're hosting your webinars or you're doing your workshops and you're putting out your template, as Sara mentioned, I hosted a really successful 90 minute workshop in January for $23 because it's 2023. That was my strategy on how I came up with that number. And then I had a $74 order bump that over 50% of people took me up on. So it rounded out to be around $100. But yeah, I tried free for a really long time and I just find that the quality of participants like the nonprofits engaging, paying attention, showing up live is like a bajillion times better when I put even a $9 price tag on something. So I just wanted to say that. Oh, there was a question for Jehan, do you see it? There was a question for Jehan. It was asking specifically how we can provide support for smaller nonprofits. Like, what does that look like? Since you spoke a little bit to it. I lost it. Sorry. But that was roughly the question.

00:55:31 Jehan: Oh, there it is.

00:55:32 Jess: Oh, yeah.

00:55:33 Jehan: Serve the small nonprofits out there. Yeah, I think two things. One, having offerings that are at a price point that smaller nonprofits can afford. When the first time that I worked with anybody, I'm trying to remember. I don't know if it was free or like tiny price point. And it was like, we're going to do this thing for four days. It's going to be like a half an hour each day, check in kind of thing, and you'll get some additional resources through email. And I was like, okay, I can personally invest in that. At that point in our organization, I wasn't even willing to use money from the organization. I think, one, there wasn't the mindset to do that, to invest in that way. And that was actually a big change for us. It was like, I saw the outcomes of just that one week and I was like, okay, this does make sense, make sense to invest in this. So offering things at different price levels so nonprofits can get in on it. And secondly, again, because of the lack of resources, we run a really lean team. Everybody, except for myself, with the exception of our team in Nepal, they're all full time, but everybody here is working 10 hours a week, so we have 10 hours split across. So again, having the things that are actionable, not just giving us ideas, we need things that we can actually put into place and put into place very quickly, that's something that we always look for.

00:57:01 Jess: I love that. Yeah, maybe just for, like, context, would you all three mind sharing your budget? Because small and big is, always relative. Jehan, what's your all's budget?

00:57:16 Jehan: We're 300,000.

00:57:18 Jess: Okay. Cassy?

00:57:21 Cassy: We're right around 700.

00:57:23 Jess: And Sara?

00:57:25 Sara: We're 200 going on about 250.

00:57:28 Jess: Yeah. So, I mean, these are on the smaller side of nonprofit. Yeah, I know it's again, it's all relative, but I also wanted the three of you all to be on this call because I also wanted to show consultants that there are lots of nonprofit organizations with a million dollar and under budget that have resources to hire and pay for consultants and their services. Not every project is going to come from those larger ones. It's a both.

00:58:03 Cassy: And Jess, I will say that from my perspective, like the dynamic nature of being small and growing, we're evolving so quickly and as we're evolving and we take on new projects, it's really helpful to have somebody lay the foundation. We don't know if we're going to do stuff forever. It might be a pilot. So I think that kind of transient nature of your early stages makes you maybe even more primed to work with a consultant as long as it's at a reasonable price point.

00:58:34 Jess: 100%. In fact, sometimes I even advise that for clients, because oftentimes with a consultant at the price point that the nonprofit is comfortable paying, they can hire a consultant that's been doing this work for 20 years. They're going to be a lot more quick, efficient, seasoned than probably very junior green staffer that they could bring on their team. They probably cost about the same, so I totally agree. Okay, last two questions. Is there a payment structure that makes your life easier or harder, for example, every two months, better or worse than monthly? Does anyone have any strong feelings about that? No. Okay.

00:59:20 Jess: Again, these are three leaders that have a lot of control over their budgets and flexibility around their budget. So it's probably going to change if you have an organization that has, like, a very hands on board. Those are the ones I tend to want to work with. What about a trial period versus a discount, example, ongoing practical tasks? Would that be attractive to you?

00:59:51 Cassy: I just wouldn't suggest you do a trial period. It's like my recommendation on your behalf, because that just feels like it could go really wrong for you. So I'd say maybe start with a small project and ramp up, sort of thing. But I wouldn't do work for folks for free, like in your consulting space. And that's not from a nonprofit perspective.

01:00:17 Jess: Totally.

01:00:18 Jehan: I would jump in and say the exact same thing. I believe in people being paid for their work, and if we can at a discount and we can get in at that level, fantastic. But I always want to pay for work.

01:00:29 Jess: Yeah, totally. Okay. Final question from Francesca. What about working with MW? I don't even know what that acronym is, MWBE vendors. Do nonprofits of the [side] have goals? Francesca, maybe you can come off and tell minority women what's VE. Oh, thank you, Jen. Minority women own business enterprises. Yeah. As far as the diversity, my gosh, diversity goes, are you paying attention to that? Are you looking for that? Where do you go to find that? Is it again through your referrals? Do you just name that from the top? None. Yeah.

01:01:20 Cassy: I think that's one of the reasons. Even though we find consultants through referrals, I still have a process in place. And when I say, like RFP, I want to talk to at least a few folks. I want to think about the diversity of consultants the same way we think about diversity of staff. I want to make sure that I'm reaching out and asking for referrals from friends who work at different types of organizations who have different lived experiences. And it is one of the things that gives me pause about just making a relational, like, yes, you got the contract decision, is what you're talking about. We often end up working with folks that we know, but not without a thoughtful process on the front end. So I think that's a challenge, frankly, and it's why we have a process in place. We won't hire a consultant without talking to at least three people. And part of that is backing into the same building, the same pipeline that we tried it for candidates as well.

01:02:23 Jess: Yes, totally.

01:02:26 Jehan: I was just going to say the same. We very much focus on that internally, even our staff in Nepal, we focus on diversity, and we are like a 99% women led organization. And so I think the consultants that we've worked on in the past very much align with that. And so as we continue to look for more and that word of mouth happens, it just has naturally become this circle of making sure that we are including diversity in our consultants that we work with. It's part of our values as an organization.

01:02:59 Jess: Yeah. Good. I love, love, love, love. This was so helpful. I know we're past time. Sara, Jehan, Cassy, thank you so much. I know you all three are busy, busy bees. So quickly, if anyone wants to follow your work or get in touch, this is not an invitation to pitch and hound these leaders to participate in work, you are more than welcome to start a normal relationship, though. What is the best way to follow along, get in touch? You can throw it in the chat or just pull yourself off mute.

01:03:39 Cassy: [Unclear] me on LinkedIn. I'll put it in there.

01:03:42 Jess: Cool. Yeah. I know you all through your LinkedIn girlies a little bit, I think. And Instagram.

01:03:51 Sara: LinkedIn is definitely the place for me. And then our nonprofit is @SODANational on Instagram, which is the best place for following our work.

01:04:00 Jess: Love it. Thank you so much. Okay, it's break time. Let's take a screen break. We're going to come back in 30, I think. Is it 30? Don't let me lie to you. Jen, maybe you can help me out. Is it 30 or one? One. Yeah. I hope that that's what I told Nikki. I think it is. So we're going to take an hour-long break, a good long break since we've been on the go today. And we're going to come back to talk about collaborative marketing, both how to participate with other nonprofit consultants buddy up, how to be an affiliate, how to host affiliates. This has been a game changer for me in my business. We'll come back for that. Have a nice break. Thank you again so much. We'll see you guys soon. Bye.

01:04:53 Cindy: Thank you again for listening to the Confessions podcast for nonprofit coaches and consultants. If you enjoyed today's episode, which I sure hope you did, you can show your support in one of three ways.

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