YOU get to choose who you work with - confessions from ICON
“Follow your gut. If it's not so bad, but you're just like I'm not interested, double your prices and see what they say.” - Cindy Wagman
YOU get to choose who you work with - confessions from ICON
In today's episode, we are thrilled to introduce a brand-new format for the show. We will delve into the common struggle of choosing clients and openly share our own experiences of dealing with difficult clients. From setting boundaries to raising prices, we offer valuable insights on how to navigate the tricky world of client selection. Plus, we’ll reveal a clever strategy for attracting the right clients through case studies.
Highlights:
Pick clients that align with your values and work style
Setting boundaries and be selective about who you work with
Don't undervalue your services out of fear or scarcity mindset
Seek support and advice from trusted peers or mentors to help you navigate client selection and pricing decisions
Find Us Online: https://www.confessionswithjessandcindy.com/
Connect with Cindy:
Cindy Wagman Coaching https://cindywagman.com/
The Good Partnership https://www.thegoodpartnership.com/
Connect with Jess:
Out In the Boons: https://www.outintheboons.me
Transcript:
00:00:00 Cindy: Welcome to the Confessions podcast. I'm Cindy Wagman.
00:00:03 Jess: And I'm Jess Campbell. We're two former in-house nonprofit pros turned coaches and consultants to purpose-driven organizations.
00:00:11 Cindy: After years of building up our separate six-figure businesses from scratch, we've thrown a lot of spaghetti at the wall and have lived to see what sticks.
00:00:20 Jess: We're on a mission to help other nonprofit coaches and consultants looking to start or scale their own businesses past the six-figure mark by pulling back the curtain.
00:00:30 Cindy: Whether you're still working inside a nonprofit and thinking of one day going out on your own, or you've been running your consulting business for years, you understand that working with nonprofits is just different. We're giving you access to the business leaders who serve nonprofits as their clients. You know, the people who truly get it.
00:00:51 Jess: No more gatekeeping, no more secrets. This podcast is going to give you an inside look at what running a successful nonprofit coaching and consulting business looks like. Basically, we're asking people how much money they make, how they get paid, and what has and hasn't worked in their businesses.
00:01:10 Cindy: Listen in as these leaders share their insights, their numbers, and the good, the bad, and the ugly when it comes to building a nonprofit coaching or consulting business. We're going to empower you to make the power moves that give you the income and freedom you set out to create from day one.
00:01:28 Jess: You, ready? Let's go.
00:01:27 Cindy: Hey, Jess.
00:01:33 Jess: Hello, hello. We're back at it.
00:01:35 Cindy: We're back at it. I'm so excited. Today's episode is a first for us. I'm very excited because it's a bit of a new format. So for those of you who haven't followed along our journey, this past spring, Jess and I set up a booth at AFP ICON, which is a ginormous fundraising conference. This year was in New Orleans. And we asked consultants to share their confessions in with little phone-like confession booth that we set up. And finally, we've come around to bringing those confessions to you.
00:02:14 Jess: Yes, I know. You're in for a treat because people really unleashed.
00:02:20 Cindy: They did. So we picked up on a few trends. So we'll do this over a few episodes. But today's trend, I'm not even give it away. We're going to play you these confessions right now and then we'll react. So let's go.
00:02:37 Jess: Enjoy.
00:02:38 Julia Campbell: This is amazing. This is Julia Campbell. I have a confession that I really hate one of my clients. I was just thinking about that today and they are rude and they are not very nice. And I think I'm going to have to sever ties with them, sadly. But yeah, I was just thinking about that this morning. So it's good to get off my chest. Thank you guys for all that you do. Working with some of my clients is really a pain. I enjoy my work overall, but it's not the work. It's the clients that make the job hard.
00:02:38 Participant 2: Hi, Jess and Cindy. This is one of your anonymous consultants. And I want to like you encourage me to share something I wish I had known earlier in my business. And that is that even though I have obligations, I need to earn money to support my family, et cetera. You know the drill. I wish I had realized earlier that I should pick and choose clients, that every client who wants to work with me, who wants to pay me, doesn't necessarily mean that they are the client I should be working with. So I heard a quote recently that really resonated with me to this point. And that is, choose your clients and choose your future. All right, that's my big confession. I have others, so I'll be back later. Bye.
00:04:09 Participant 3: The best part about owning my own consultancy is getting to pick the clients. And I definitely have told people I have a full roster when I haven't, and the client hasn't felt aligned with my values.
00:04:28 Cindy: Okay, so clearly there's a lot of feelings about choosing who you work with. Oh my goodness. Overwhelmed.
00:04:36 Jess: I mean, let's just be straight though. Like when you were starting, it is very common and very normal to take what you can get, right? And I think that there's something to be said about just going, you know, and not waiting for the most perfect client to pay you the highest rate possible because you need some experience under your belt. That being said, there is a better way to do it. And I think that the sooner you can adopt a formula that works for you and your family's needs and your values is going to make for a much happier, smoother ride as a business owner.
00:05:24 Cindy: Yeah. And like, I think we all have to figure out our own boundaries. I just had this conversation, interestingly, yesterday in my office hours with my fractional fundraisers. And we work with small organizations. And I said like, you have to think about what, like, can you work with these organizations or these people? Is it them or is it the system? And where's your boundaries? So, for example, small organizations can be really bad at getting you information. Their follow through isn't great. In some ways, they're the hardest clients to work with. And that can make really rewarding work, right? That can really add to your feeling of satisfaction, job satisfaction and work satisfaction. But what is, where do you draw the line?
00:06:25 Jess: And what's the cost?
00:06:26 Cindy: And what's the cost? And so how do you navigate that? And there's no perfect way. And each of us have our own boundaries. But it's one of the interesting things. Like I've always said, I can adjust my work style to other people's styles. But there's other values that I can't adjust. Like in the past, when I had the staff team, like if anyone treated my staff badly, we're done. I've fired clients over that. And so you get to pick what works for you. And part of it is also just like having the courage to say no sometimes, even though you know those bills are going to get paid.
00:07:10 Jess: Yeah, I mean, it's a tricky situation because I mean, I've been there. Like I remember moments at the start of pandemic where people were canceling things and I just really needed work. My husband, who works in the medical arena just overnight, was not seeing patients anymore. So it was on me. And like, yeah, I remember being in some places and some moments where I just needed any breathing organization. And then things pick up, right. And now I'm in a place where there's too much work coming in and I can charge whatever I want. And if someone says no, I am so okay with blessing and releasing. And I think that the rub comes when you continue to price yourself in that kind of scarcity mindset for far, far, far too long. And then you almost become resentful.
00:08:07 Jess: And so it's like so that's why when your client maybe does respond rudely or doesn't follow a deadline or is super critical, you maybe have an outsized reaction. Because in reality, you're just not being paid enough. Like if they were paying you at top tier, you might have a bit more patience for that or just more capacity because you weren't also working with a bajillion other organizations at the same time. And so Cindy knows this pricing is not my jam. I wish I could do everything for free. If I ever come against a pricing question, I go straight to my peer group and I say, what would you do? And I always come at me with an answer that's like 50 billion times higher than what my gut, whatever that means, would say. And so I think if you are someone like me who is a little bit less motivated by money and I'm not knocking that at all, I almost wish I was more motivated by money because it's so concrete. It's so clear where I'm a little bit more motivated by like volume impact. It's why I do things like summits that host upwards of like thousands of people at one time.
00:09:20 Jess: I think you really need a group of people that you trust that you can bounce those things off of. It's so helpful for them to just push back on you and challenge you. And like our friend Rhea Wong, she'll straight up tell me like you're charging too low. And I'm like, okay.
00:09:44 Cindy: [unintelligible]
00:09:46 Jess: You know, yeah. And I need that. I need that kind of pushing and encouragement because, you know, you need friends that are going to say, well, I hear you saying you're tired. I hear you complaining a lot. And I see you not charging enough. So be a big girl and do something about it. I need that kind of tough love. And I wouldn't be able to do that in my own mind.
00:10:10 Cindy: Yeah. So speaking of pricing and picking your clients, one thing I've advised people over the time is actually like if it's a client, you're not sure, but they're not terrible. Just to double your prices and see what they say. And it's worked for a lot of people and it actually gets them out of that rut of like, you know, taking them to the next level. But yeah, like this idea of choosing your clients is very much tied to, I think, your ability to get paid and not be resentful of the work that you're doing. And that is like I definitely that comes across even in some of the confessions we got.
00:10:53 Cindy: Can I so I have like I'm almost embarrassed about this one. I made the right decision in the end, but I wavered. Okay, so back in the day, I had like a small team, I think three or four staff, and we were doing fundraising implementation for small organizations and I met this guy at a conference. And he was like, "Oh my God, and we need to hire you at this organization. You're so fantastic. I can't wait." Like in. He's like, "Let's have a meeting." He had a home office. So myself. And my two female colleagues went to this meeting. It was fine. Like but it was in his home. And we're talking and we have the normal business development conversation. And he basically said, like, "Well, I'm glad I can hire you guys to do this because I don't want to like, or myself out." [unintelligible]
00:11:52 Jess: I mean, I wish you all could see my face right now. Yeah.
00:11:55 Cindy: I mean, I was like, I was so shocked. I couldn't actually say anything in the moment.
00:12:03 Jess: That's happened to me.
00:12:04 Cindy: That's then I left and I was like, I can't work with this guy. But then I was like, he's like, ready to sign the paperwork. Do we work with this guy? Like I wavered for a whole minute. Probably I was like, maybe my staff don't do the work and I'll do the work and I'll protect them. And like, I know that feeling of like there you have financial obligations, you have all these other considerations. In the end, it was a very obvious no, I just needed some time to find the courage to say that. But it was, you know, it was not my brightest moment. But then the other conversation that comes up around this, which I think one of the confessions mentions is like, what do you tell people? What do you tell them when you're like, sorry, I don't want to work with you. And this comes up with clients, too, which is like, if you're firing a client, do you tell them the truth? Like, did I go back and tell that guy that what he said was absolutely inappropriate? No, I didn't.
00:13:15 Cindy: And I thought about this a lot over the years. And the advice I give to people is like, I save that kind of energy where I give meaningful, honest feedback to people I know who will receive it. And he was not going to like that would have just opened up a fight with him. And I've seen this with other clients like I just make up an excuse that protects your reputation and walk away. Yeah.
00:13:41 Jess: Yeah, I 100 percent agree. And I am so glad that you made the right call. I want to give that would have been so painful and talk about a different episode we would be having if [crosstalk]
00:13:53 Cindy: Oh yeah.
00:13:53 Jess: I want to give some advice on something that I've done naturally, but then looking back, I think has had a really big impact on who I call in as clients. And that is by doing case studies. So whether it's my how they raised a private podcast where I interview past clients and we walk through step by step how they raised money in a certain capacity, or share it in a blog post or share it on LinkedIn or share it whatever. Since I've launched my private podcast two weeks ago, I've had so many inquiries from people that are like, I'm a dog rescue. And I heard how you helped Mackenzie the dog rescue. What would that look like for us? Or we work with families who have children experiencing cancer, kind of like Pickles group, which is another organization I interviewed. How do you work with me?
00:14:48 Jess: And I think that by showing, I think show, not tell marketing is like the [crosstalk]. And it always works. It will never go out of style. And if you just peel back the curtain a little bit, it will give people insight into the type of organizations that you work for. For example, shockingly, sarcastic. No hospitals have reached out to me. No, like universities have reached out to me. And guess what? That's not who I'm trying to call in.
00:15:19 Cindy: That just works perfectly.
00:15:21 Jess:Yeah, so it's like, I think that that could be a tool in everyone's toolbox, because I also am really transparent about my prices and, you know, their return on investment. Like it's simple math for people to figure out. So that could be something if you're really struggling, like, if you're only putting in out offers that are free, for example, you might only get people who don't want to pay, you know, there's all these different things that you could try.
00:15:54 Cindy: I love that. So on point and such a good way to wrap up this kind of mini episode, which is you don't have to say yes to working with everyone, even when it's so tempting. Follow your gut. If it's not so bad, but you're just like, I'm not interested, double your prices and see what they say. But most importantly, to Jess's point, call in the work that you want. And this goes like, I'm in Canada, so we don't... we pronounce like when you niche down, right, like you niche, but some I've heard like there's riches in the niches. For those of you in the States, but like, I think that's exactly what you're talking about, Jess, which is like double down on speaking exactly to who you want to work with. And those people will.. it will resonate with the right people. And then yeah, you get to say no, you get to decide that is one of the reasons why we all–
00:16:50 Jess: Started your business.
00:16:53 Cindy: So all right, well, stay tuned. We will have more confessions. And of course, if you have something you want us… you want to confess, go to confessionswithjessandcindy.com. You can actually leave us a little message as well and we will respond.
00:17:11 Cindy: Thank you again for listening to the Confessions Podcast for nonprofit coaches and consultants. If you enjoyed today's episode, which I sure hope you did, you can show your support in one of three ways.
00:17:21 Jess: Number one, post a screenshot of this episode to your Instagram stories or LinkedIn profile and tag Cindy and us so we can repost you.
00:17:31 Cindy: Number two, share this podcast with a fellow nonprofit coach or consultant.
00:17:35 Jess: And number three, leave a positive review on Apple podcasts so we can continue to grow and reach new listeners.
00:17:41 Cindy: And of course, make sure you subscribe so you can get the latest and greatest interviews as they drop every Thursday.
00:17:48 Jess: And to our fellow nonprofit coaching and consulting friends, remember, we're an open book and here to answer your burning biz questions.
00:17:55 Cindy: See you next time.