Leading the People-First Revolution with Paul Taylor and Laëtitia Eyssartel

Dec 21

“How do we stay in line with our values, how do we make sure that we continue doing the work in a way that aligns with our values?” - Laëtitia Eyssartel

Leading the People-First Revolution with Paul Taylor and Laëtitia Eyssartel

As nonprofit consultants, we're all in the same boat. The way we work, the teams we build and the cultures we cultivate, they all matter. But often, we fail to prioritize what truly matters – ourselves, and the well-being of the people who make the day-to-day business grind possible. In today's episode, our powerhouse guests at Evenings and Weekends Consulting, Paul Taylor and Laëtitia Eyssartel, peeled back the curtain to their successful business model – and to a few confessions. What they've built is not just a business but a thriving environment that champions work-life balance and fair working conditions. We're getting real about the radical changes they've made to the established rules of the nonprofit sector. So, tune in!

Key Highlights:

Connect with Paul & Laëtitia :

Paul Taylor (Linkedin): linkedin.com/in/paultaylorto

Website (Personal): paulmichaeltaylor.ca

Evenings & Weekends Consulting: https://www.eveningsandweekendsconsulting.com/

Find Us Online: https://www.confessionswithjessandcindy.com/

Connect with Cindy:

Cindy Wagman Coaching https://cindywagman.com

Fractional Fundraising Network https://www.fractionalfundraising.co/

LinkedIn: https://ca.linkedin.com/in/cindywagman

Connect with Jess:

Out In the Boons: https://www.outintheboons.me

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jess-campbell-outintheboons/

Transcript:

00:00:00 Cindy: Welcome to the Confessions podcast. I'm Cindy Wagman.

00:00:03 Jess: And I'm Jess Campbell. We're two former in-house nonprofit pros turned coaches and consultants to purpose driven organizations.

00:00:11 Cindy: After years of building up our separate six-figure businesses from scratch, we've thrown a lot of spaghetti at the wall and lived to see what sticks.

00:00:20 Jess: We're on a mission to help other nonprofit coaches and consultants looking to start or scale their own businesses past the six-figure mark by pulling back the curtain.

00:00:30 Cindy: Whether you're still working inside a non-profit and thinking of one day going out on your own, or you've been running your consulting business for years, you understand that working with nonprofits is just different. We're giving you access to the business leaders who serve nonprofits as their clients. You know, the people who truly get it.

00:00:52 Jess: No more gatekeeping, no more secrets. This podcast is going to give you an inside look at what running a successful nonprofit coaching and consulting business looks like. Basically, we're asking people how much money they make, how they get paid, and what has and hasn't worked in their businesses.

00:01:12 Cindy: Listen in as these leaders share their insights, their numbers, and the good, the bad, and the ugly when it comes to building a nonprofit coaching or consulting business. We're going to empower you to make the power moves that give you the income and freedom you set out to create from day one.

00:01:28 Jess: You ready? Let's go.

00:01:31 Cindy: Hey, Jess.

00:01:33 Jess: Hi, Cindy.

00:01:35 Cindy: I'm so excited. This is actually one of my most anticipated conversations because when I first learned about Evenings & Weekends from my friend Rickesh, I was like, oh my goodness, we have to have them on. So to all of you listeners, I'm so excited to introduce you to Paul and Laëtitia from Evenings & Weekends. They have such a unique and exciting business model. So welcome to the podcast.

00:02:05 Laëtitia: Hi, thank you for having us.

00:02:07 Paul: Yeah, such a pleasure. Thank you.

00:02:09 Cindy: Thank you both for joining us. We love to get started learning a little bit more about your business. So can you tell us what you do and how you get paid?

00:02:22 Laëtitia: [Pash]?

00:02:25 Cindy: [Pash] is preferable.

00:02:27 Paul: Big bags of loot to Laëtitia place. No. Our business. Yeah. So we... Do you want me to start this, Laëtitia?

00:02:34 Laëtitia: Yeah, go for it. Yeah.

00:02:36 Paul: Yeah? Okay.

00:02:36 Laëtitia: Yeah.

00:02:39 Paul: Yeah. We are a consulting firm. We work primarily with charities and nonprofits, but we also work with academic institutions, trade unions and other, kind of ancillary organizations. And I think our model is based on deep listening. So we spend a lot of time often working with our clients to redirect who they should be listening to. I think we have this idea that the leaders should have the answers. And when they don't have the answers, they sometimes turn to consultants. So we find that often what we're doing is turning their gaze a different direction and to their often frontline staff who are the folks, who more often than not have all of the answers to the issues that organizations are trying to navigate.

00:03:25 Cindy: Oh, I love that. Laëtitia, you want to add anything?

00:03:28 Laëtitia: No, I think Paul cover most of it. I mean, because I think I'm a really logistic person in our team. So if we want to go really granular in the type of work that we end up doing, it goes from supporting organization with the strategic planning process, doing financial review, HR review, equity audit, a little bit of coaching, although it feels like a lot of coaching and mentorship, Paul would probably say that, because he does a lot of that with a bunch of amazing folks. Yeah, so a little bit of, and also creative services. So we've been really trying to build an organization where folks can, we can offer a wide range of services.

00:04:09 Laëtitia: So it's not just like, the goal is not just to work with clients with on one project and then say goodbye. It's really about building a relationship, which I think goes back to our approach around listening. It's really making space to have those deep conversation and build a strong relationship with our clients. So then we can support them throughout many, many different aspects of their work. So yeah.

00:04:33 Cindy: Amazing.

00:04:34 Paul: Can I add a few more things?

00:04:35 Cindy: Please, do.

00:04:36 Paul: The way Laëtitia and I often work, I should never start, Laëtitia, because Laëtitia says some brilliant things and then I'm like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I guess one is I think we're also pretty focused on advancing decent work and shifting the sector in a lot of ways, the charitable nonprofit sector. One of the ways we see an opportunity to do that is advancing decent work and working with organizations that want to rethink their approaches to working with their teams and public education. So sometimes sharing information about some of the challenges, struggles and opportunities that we see within the sector. We almost think of consulting as one part of the work that we do to advance change.

00:05:22 Cindy: I love that. Okay, so I wanna ask, cause I think I have a sense, but I might not be on the right page and certainly our listeners might not know. Can you talk a little bit about what is decent work and how you work with organizations? And I have so many questions about this cause I also wanna talk about how you embody that within your company, but let's start with what it is.

00:05:49 Laëtitia: You want to start, Paul? I feel you do, always a better job than I do.

00:05:56 Paul: No problem. My coffee is slowly kicking in. What is decent work? It's work that we can feel good about. I remember when I would talk to friends about applying for work and engaging in work, I would often talk to them about... make sure you feel good about agreeing to join this organization because ultimately you have to feel good about giving your labor and your experience and your expertise, and you have to feel like it's valued, respected and appreciated. So that's the frame for how I think about decent work. And it includes a whole bunch of things, recognizing that people are people, not just workers, that they have lives, relationships, community, outside of the organization that might pay them their paycheck.

00:06:42 Paul: So you know, making time for people to engage in those spaces, making time for people to be able to rest and play and cook and eat, all of those sorts of things and push back on the way that I think capitalism has taught, certainly for-profit corporations and also, you know, nonprofits and charities that, who have embraced the same kind of model. Let's do the most that we can and advance our impact, but often doing that on the backs of workers and often low wage workers, often low wage racialized workers. So yeah, that's how I think about decent work.

00:07:20 Cindy: Amazing.

00:07:21 Laëtitia: Yeah, I can't add anything. That's why I was like, Paul, you have to talk about this one because you're going to do an amazing job.

00:07:27 Cindy; Yeah.

00:07:28 Paul: How do we embody decent work?

00:07:29 Cindy: Yes, I would love to hear, and it sounds like, Laëtitia, that might be something you can talk about. How do you create an environment within your business? Because I would say, arguably, in the nonprofit sector, we actually squeeze people for more than even the for-profit capitalist structures. So you're doing some work to change that within your business. Can you talk a little bit about how you've structured things differently?

00:07:59 Laëtitia: Yeah. No, that's a great question. And I would say I would start off the bad by saying we don't have the magic answer or solution, like it's a work in progress. Like I think it's always a work in progress. But some of the staff, so we have a staff team. There's 13 of us who are full time employees of the business. And so some of the things that we do is, you know, we offer a lot of paid time off. So that looks like, you know, closing for March break because we have people on the team who have little ones and the same for the winter shutdown because we recognize, you know, parents, for example, you know, you have to use your vacation when your kids are off, which means when you have three weeks of vacation, they already gone just for that.

00:08:47 Laëtitia: So those we offer to everybody on the team in addition to four weeks of vacation, we do a four day work week. So Monday to Thursday, 32 hours a week. We make sure folks are paid for their lunchtime, which is an hour lunch break. We have, you know, extensive sick days or 16 sick days, personal days that people can use for whatever. We also just introduce three days for people who are, you know, wanting to engage outside of the work for something that they're really passionate about and so they can volunteer their time to do some of that work.

00:09:26 Laëtitia: And I feel I'm missing a lot of stuff but I think also we have, you know, we operate through pay transparency so our pay grid is available in public. We don't negotiate salary or benefits. I think one of the things we did as a small business when we started, we wanted to make sure that we could offer some help and then to benefit two folks on our team. So that's something we committed to and we offer right from the get-go. And then, yeah, I don't know, Paul, if you can think of other things.

00:09:56 Paul: The benefits one is an interesting one because it's been a nuisance for me for a long time. Organizations that say, you can come and work with us. We think you're the best candidate. We've gone through this extensive process. You are our number one. But you know what? We don't care if you get sick for the first three months. We don't care if you're on life-saving medication. Your children are on life-saving medication. We'll wait for three months to decide whether or not you're deserving of that. So having access to that right from the get-go, I think, has been really important.

00:10:27 Paul: You know, I had a friend who actually, when we had a job posting, actually counted up how much time off we provide and said, I like this job, you folks are only working two thirds of the year. Because if you use up all your time, you're about off for a third of the year. I would also add that one of my favorite things about how we work is that we don't work after five. We typically don't work before nine, we do not schedule meetings or do work between 12 and one. So, you know, we will, we were running a little bit late, I think, for this today, because I was finishing up my lunch. I will admit, I was finishing up my lunch, and that is a priority, so.

00:11:04 Paul: And it's not just a priority for us, but a priority for all of the folks that we work with, that they have a chance to, I had something that ran a little bit later, so then I was able to then steal a few more minutes to finish up my lunch. And I think those are little things that sometimes have a really big impact.

00:11:21 Jess: Yes, everyone deserves to not be hangry as they're doing this deep thingy. I know what I turn into and I haven't had my proper meals. I'm curious if you have evaluated the impact of this decent work for your team. I know in the nonprofit sector in the States where I live, turnover is rampant. I think it's also somewhat of an epidemic that people are leaving the sector entirely just because the lack of decent work is like, is not good, is really bad. And so I know a lot of people who are like, well, if I'm gonna be doing hard work, I might as well go in, for-profit sector, earn a different wage or work for Google that does have some of these, like wraparound benefits. And I'm just curious if you've evaluated your team on the impacts of providing this, even if it's anecdotal or anything, or if it's just longevity with your firm?

00:12:28 Paul: Such a great question. And we get that a lot, particularly in the context of retention and retention-based strategies, or retention strategies. And we haven't. And it's because we've approached this not from the place of a retention-based strategy. We've approached this based on this is just what we think is the right thing to do. And full stop.

00:12:51 Laëtitia: But I think where it shows up is, for example, when we've had posted a few job posting, I think we've got like hundreds of applicants every single time. And I think that's, you know, that can be one indication that shows that people are interested in getting to work, you know, with our organization and with the team. And I think some of it is a reflection of the type of policies and practices that we have implemented. ‘Cause we’re also really transparent in how we post job. Like people know. Like if you're coming, this is what you're going to get. There's no, you know, you come in and then you open the door and you're like, woo, that was a nice, great, that's what I thought. Or maybe some people would say, I don't know, I can't speak for others, but we're really transparent from the get go. And so I think one way we've seen it is through, when we post for job.

00:13:39 Laëtitia: And I would also say we’re fairly new in many ways. We've only been doing this work, Paul and I, full time, not even a year, it's going to be a year in January. So our team has grown quite a lot in the past 11 months. So obviously people who started with us are still with us so far, but I don't know if that's an indication.

00:14:04 Paul: That's so funny. Laëtitia uses data. And I think about how sharp the pitchforks would be if we even thought about rolling this back or how tall the flames would be on those torches. And I think that'd be pretty high and pretty sharp because people are really responding well to this type of structure, I think.

00:14:24 Laëtitia: And maybe one other thing we've also, like I think the way we've been thinking about it is like from our own perspective, you know, like what would we want to have and what makes the most sense. And that's really how we've always been building policies and yeah, and looking at it.

00:14:42 Paul: If anybody listening is still doing a five-day workweek, I encourage them to try four days for a month, because one of the things that happens is, well, your pitchfork gets sharper and your flame gets higher because there is no way you would even think about going back. And I wouldn't, yeah, I couldn't.

00:15:05 Cindy; I love all of this. And I mean, what I love is I know both of you also have done this within nonprofits in a way that was very much against the grain. And now working with nonprofits, sometimes I hear and people in my network hear things like organizations questioning some of your like, rates or like, especially, you know, you're posting your salary ranges, you work four day work weeks and our sector has trained us to be like, you have to be available all the time and answer all the things.

00:15:43 Cindy: Now I hope that the clients that are coming to you are coming to you because you're doing things differently, but I wonder if you do get pushback and what you would say to other consultants who get that pushback so that they can start to protect those boundaries in a meaningful way? It looks like, Laëtitia, that one's going to you first.

00:16:04 Laëtitia: Is it going for me? Do you want [this, Paul]?

00:16:07 Paul: I'm happy to.

00:16:08 Cindy: Okay, perfect. Go.

00:16:09 Laëtitia: Go for it if you, yeah.

00:16:10 Paul: I try not to respond to what we've been conditioned to think in the sector because we've also been conditioned to operate within white supremacy. We've also been conditioned to operate within patriarchy. And I think it's, if people want to continue to operate within those oppressive organizing frameworks, they're more than welcome to do that. But for us, we don't have that interest. So the kind of pushback or do we get pushback? I don't know if we get a lot of pushback. I don't think we do.

00:16:41 Laëtitia: No, because again, I think we also, it's back to transparency. And I think we’re pretty honest from, like, from the get-go when we enter in, relationship with clients, even before we enter in relationship, that's in some of our marketing materials, how we work. And when we have our kickoff meeting, we chat about the fact that, hey, you may be working Monday to Friday, or some of the folks Monday to Sunday in the evenings, but you're never going to get an email from me on a Friday at 8 PM because I have a kid. And I'm just not interested.

00:17:16 Laëtitia: So it's not to say that obviously we don't have things that happen sometime outside, but those are planned and we're really clear about when those things happens. But yeah, I think, I mean, if I had something to say to other folks, I think it's about being clear about what your boundaries are and communicating them and sticking with them, because I think it's also so easy to like, you can say, hey, those are like my boundaries. And I expect you to, you know, respect those. But I find one of the things that will happen and a pattern that I see sometimes is that people will not respect that. They will try. And if they see that you're going to let them go in, then this is the end.

00:18:00 Laëtitia: So you have to be really honest and really strong at just keeping your boundaries and setting them. And there's nothing wrong with that. I think we've been, as Paul said, I think we, especially in the non-for-profit sector, there's also a lot of sense of urgency. And sometimes, I know for me, I do quite a bit of client facing work. And sometimes we have to have, conversation about, hey, I get it. I get that you're feeling the stress and it's a lot to take on and everything. But whether we chat about that right now, in the moment where, also emotions run super high, or if we take maybe 24 hours and you have time to think about it.

00:18:38 Laëtitia: It's probably going to be, you know, we'll have, better outcome if we take that time and space to process everything that's going on. And yeah, so I think it's about communication, transparency, honesty, and respecting each other and building those type of relationships.

00:18:54 Paul: Ultimately, what people want is good work. They want us to produce good work. And we are pretty, as Laëtitia is saying, we communicate upfront and say, you know, especially if they're approaching us with a really urgent, with some sense of urgency for something that isn't really that urgent, but we say, well, we want to do good work for you. And if you want us to answer this within the next day or produce something within the next day, it's not going to be good work. And we don't want to do that. And more often than not, folks will say, yes, please do good work for us and do what you need to do that good work for us.

00:19:27 Paul: I also, just if I could come back to two things, you know, I think one of the ways that it shows up that I think is sometimes comical is when people start working with us and they think maybe it's just an invitation into how people have worked within the sector They think that we're kidding or they think that it's something that's just posted online as a nice-to-have, that is not real. So someone will send an email at seven o'clock, six o'clock. And you know the next day, they'll, someone will have a conversation with them and say, sorry, we don't do that.

00:20:01 Paul: And earlier I was talking about, you know, the oppressive organizing principles that have influenced the sector and how many of us work. And I think patriarchy is a really important one. And I think men have predominantly been allowed to get ahead in the world of work because of this kind of expectation that were available all hours of the day, men who primarily aren't the primary caregivers of children. They can answer those emails, they can respond. And then the boss says, oh, look at Charlie, he's working so hard. And women in lots of ways get left behind in those types of environments. So it's not only nice to have for us, it is fundamental and really important in one of the ways that we push back on an oppressive organizing principle like patriarchy.

00:20:50 Cindy: I love all of this. This is exactly why I wanted to have this conversation with both of you.

00:20:55 Jess: I was just thinking, Cindy, is this taking you back to your university days of like, all the advocacy and like studying? And I feel like this is–

00:21:06 Cindy: I love it.

00:21:07 Jess: This is like–

00:21:07 Cindy: For sure.

00:21:08 Jess: So right in your space.

00:21:10 Cindy: This is so, and this is also a lot of what I do now working with other consultants is trying to get them to sort of drop the, I call it the scarcity hangover from working in the nonprofit sector. And we always think we can't do these things. We know we want to, right? It's aligned with our values. But it's hard, like in our minds, it's hard to do, because we've internalized all those systems of oppression and all the, you know, ways that our sector really, that's what I'm looking for. I can't, there's a word, I can't think of it right now, but the way we treat people, let's say.

00:21:53 Cindy: And so, I want to just actually underscore that point a little bit, because I do think for people who are interested in building more of what you're practicing into their businesses, the first gut reaction that we've been trained to have is like, well, organizations won't want to work with me, or they're going to push back or there's not enough business, there's not enough organizations who, you know, believe in these things too. So can you, I know you mentioned you've 13 staff. But I also know you have a network of other people you work with. So can you zoom us out and like, within a year, tell us about the success that your company has had because it's pretty exciting.

00:22:40 Laëtitia: Oh, you want me to start? Is that?

00:22:44 Cindy: This is a data question.

00:22:46 Laëtitia: Yeah, I guess it is data. And then sometimes I don't have all the data point because we've actually grown so fast that it's been sometimes hard, you know, to keep up and set up all the system that we need to be able to measure and keep track of some of those data. But I, there's a funny story. Paul and I, earlier in the year, when we moved to… we quit our full-time job because we technically started Evenings & Weekends back in 2022. And initially, as the name said, it was meant to be a side project for us, something that we both enjoy working together. We work really well together and we're like, hey, let's do something on the side.

00:23:29 Laëtitia: And that we would do on evenings and weekends, work on a few projects a year, maybe four or three projects. I think within a couple of months, we had already more than four or three projects. Quickly realized that, okay, this is bigger than I think, what we had imagined, although I'm always like, Paul is always a million steps ahead, so maybe Paul had seen that coming, but I sure did not. And then, yeah, we hired our first employee back in December of 2022. She was our admin coordinator. And then Paul and I made the decision to start full-time on the business because it was becoming unmanageable to have a full-time job and a full-time computing business to run on the side.

00:24:13 Laëtitia: And yeah, and since then, we have now 13 full-time staff. So in less than, I guess, 10 months. And we have two new staff, actually, full time staff joining us in December. So that's including the two staff. See, this is where the data is getting hard to track. And we also have a wider network of folks. So we have about 45 external consultants. So those are folks that we engage on project when, you know, we have specific demands and their skillset kind of match that demand. And yeah, and we've been managing about, I think since the beginning of the year, about 60 projects. So 60 different, kind, and I think that's not including our coaching. So it's been a wild ride. I will say that it's been a great ride.

00:25:13 Laëtitia: And yeah, my story is that when we started the year, Paul was like, I'm sure by the end of the year, we'll have 10 people. And I was like, there's no way that's going to happen. Like, no, this is not, you know. And I guess I was wrong, which is often the case when a part, I will say something like that, which I should know better by now. But yeah, it's been pretty amazing, but it's also, you know, an overwhelming ride because we've been growing so fast and trying to set up all the system that you need to set up when you grow while trying to manage all the projects and everything. We have a great team, but it can have its own challenges.

00:25:58 Jess: Okay, Laëtitia and Paul, we are back for another round of rapid fire questions. You, ready to play?

00:26:04 Laëtitia: Yep.

00:26:05 Jess: Okay. I promise it will be painless. Okay. If you had an extra hour in your day, how would you spend it?

00:26:16 Paul: Making lunch.

00:26:17 Laëtitia: Oh, with my son, I was there, but food is also a good option. Yeah. Oh, eating some of the food. I actually, I would send that. I would go and eat some of Paul's food.

00:26:26 Paul: Oh, I was going to say I would make lunch for your son.

00:26:31 Jess: Teamwork is teamwork. Where do either of you go for business inspiration, education, professional development? Is there someone out there? Is there a body of work that you really like?

00:26:48 Laëtitia: I find Paul send me a lot of podcasts and things he listens to, and that's kind of my source. So my source is Paul, who can find the best podcasts and articles and stuff.

00:26:59 Jess: What podcast?

00:27:01 Paul: Oh, I just go on these long walks. And before I go on the walk, I just do a little search and I'll listen to an episode or two. And then I'll move on to another podcast. So I can't actually remember some of the names of them. They're all lovely. But I like to change that.

00:27:17 Jess: Are they on business or is it, like, random?

00:27:20 Paul: Some on consulting, some on business, some on leadership, some on the nonprofit sector.

00:27:25 Jess: Yeah, okay, cool. So Paul, this whole interview, you're wearing the funnest glasses and it makes me wonder, what's your favorite accessory and why? Same for you, Laëtitia, even though I can't tell what yours might be.

00:27:41 Laëtitia: I mean, I can chat about my favorite one while Paul is thinking, because I would have said Paul is the glasses, but mine is a ring, the only ring that I wear, which was my mom's engagement ring. So my mom passed away many, many years ago. So it's like my daily reminder or like, way of having her with me. So that is my favorite piece of accessory.

00:28:04 Paul: Why are you making me go after you? I'm going to seem so vain. So mine is that my ears are pierced. I got my ears pierced in grade nine and I don't wear earrings every day, but every now and again, I will pop in usually one earring and it's usually something jangly. And I would say that's probably one of mine. I've got a box of cool earrings.

00:28:25 Jess; That's super fun. Okay, my last question for you each is who is your favorite follow on Instagram and why? And I'm specifically asking about Instagram because you mentioned that's where you all share about your business, which compared to a lot of consultants on the show, they hang out more on LinkedIn. So as an Instagram consultancy, I'm curious. And it doesn't have to be business related.

00:28:51 Laëtitia: Yeah, mine is not business related. And it's not necessarily a specific one. But one of the things I send a lot to Paul are like cat videos and things on Instagram. So I would say that's kind of like my favorite way of disconnecting from work. And that's, honestly, my whole Instagram feed is just full of kittens and dogs and ducks and random animals who are really cute.

00:29:24 Paul: I like the interspecies, like the animals that aren't meant to be, they're probably meant to be eating each other, but instead they're hanging out. I love that.

00:29:32 Jess: Oh, yeah. Yeah, for sure.

00:29:34 Paul: No, not the eating bits.

00:29:36 Jess: I was like, or I was thinking, like, have they been bred together? And it's like part… horse part something else. I don't know. I don't know. I went a different direction, but I totally get what you're saying.

00:29:48 Paul: No problem.

00:29:49 Jess: Okay. Thank you both for playing.

00:29:51 Paul: Oh, thank you.

00:29:53 Laëtitia: Thank you.

00:29:57 Paul: You know, I wonder why I stay for a moment zoomed out and thinking about our name and then something else. But our name, as Laëtitia said, well, we were going to be doing projects on the Evenings & Weekends. So there was a question as to whether or not we keep our name. And I think people always ask what the name means. And I think now it almost means, don't come for our Evenings & Weekends.

00:30:20 Paul: The other thing is about this team that we have is, you know, earlier I talked about our approach around gleaning from folks on the front lines or folks who are typically excluded from the kind of solution finding spaces or who are often not resourced to be a part of these solution finding spaces. So that's really how we've thought about our model as well and how we've grown. You know, we're challenging this idea of where knowledge is held and where expertise is held within the sector, you know, traditionally. And almost every single time when I was an ED, engaging consultants, folks would recommend people and they were almost always white and far older than me.

00:30:58 Paul: Now I've got the gray hairs but back then, I didn't. And I remember, wow, so the people in the sector with all the knowledge, not only often have they not worked in the sector and they're coming from corporate, whatever, but they don't look like me, they don't have experiences like I've had. So you know, one of the things that we think is really important is really challenging that notion and building a team of people that are brilliant, many of whom have had experience on the front lines of organizations, not in management, some folks in management and leadership, certainly, but really saying that that knowledge is really important and the sector needs to benefit from it.

00:31:39 Jess: This is all so good. And I'm so glad, Paul, you answered the question about the name because it was one of my questions. Okay. So I'm quite… I'm like, so my hat is off to both of you for this rapid growth with such intentionality. And I'm hoping that you will have a way to answer this question, even though it's all been so fast. But I am curious as, the two, kind of co-founders of this agency. How you spend your time, right? Like I'm curious how you spend your time facing clients versus, like team management versus business development. And in other consultancies that we've interviewed on the podcast, their transition from two to 13 or 10 projects a year to 60 is not in 10 months. Like it usually takes quite a bit longer. So I don't know how it's working for you all, but I'm just so curious how you kind of keep all the pieces flowing and going.

00:32:45 Paul: I'll say one part maybe, and then Laëtitia will say something far more meaningful. But you know, I really think that is down to our team. We have got an incredible group of people that we work with, both on our full-time team, our core team is what we call it, and the extended team, folks who are committed to this work and who do everything they can to kind of think through the problems thoughtfully. Yeah, I think a lot of it is down to the team to make all of the work that we do possible.

00:33:17 Laëtitia: I agree. I think we've been really intentional about, you know, how we, building the team, the structure of the team. And yeah, and I mean, they're a huge part of the success, to be honest, because obviously, Paul and I alone wouldn't be able to do everything. So yeah, I mean, we can chat about, in terms of, like our specific role. But I'm more, like I work more on projects. That's something I enjoy doing, especially things that falls under operation, HR, finance, all those fun stuff. At least, different for me. I know it's not everybody's cup of tea. I manage all our finances for the business as a whole, all the paperwork and stuff, [I’m sure] other people dread.

00:34:07 Laëtitia: And Paul and I also spend quite a bit of time thinking about, or like, we've been trying because sometimes it's really hard. That's the first thing to drop. And I would say, that's the most important thing not to drop, but, thinking about strategy. And, you know, and also thinking about how do we stay in line with our values? Like, how do we make sure that we continue doing the work in a way that aligns with our values? And that's something, yeah, I would say going through such a growth that was one of the things that we realized that sometimes we didn't have the time and space to do some of that.

00:34:38 Laëtitia: So I think we took a little bit of a step back and really tried to focus on, how do we make that a priority. So that's definitely in the new year going to be a bit of a change and shift for us in terms of the role we play within the business. So we have more capacity to do some of the things that we're both really good at and we enjoy doing with each other. And maybe, Paul, I’ll let you chat about some of the things that you do, because we have slightly different roles, because we're different people. And one of the things I would say, one of the things that has, I think, made it, or like we've made it to where we are is, at least for me, from my perspective, I've been super grateful to actually not do that alone and be able to do that with a partner and someone that is a friend, but also someone I've worked with.

00:35:25 Laëtitia: And we have different skill sets and we bring something different. I think we share similar values. We really respect each other. We're able to have a good and honest conversation. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we don't agree, but we always find a path forward. And I think that's something that really, to me, really helped, you know, get to where we are.

00:35:46 Paul: Totally. I do some of the, one of the things I loved doing when I was an executive director was thinking through big challenges, opportunities. So I do a lot of that with our clients who come to us and say, we want this. And I say, do you really want that? And kind of ask a few more questions and try and understand why it is, they need it. So I love that. I love the kind of conversations with our prospective clients. So I do a lot of the business development. I do a fair bit of coaching, as Laëtitia mentioned, coaching leaders of other organizations and emerging leaders. And I work with our coms. We have a consultant who do, the works on our coms. So I work with her really closely.

00:36:27 Paul: I do some other stuff I'm sure I'm forgetting, but I just wanted to answer that part so I can pivot back to this other part. And it's, you know, I think a lot about leadership and I really hope you'll hear me talk about these oppressive organizing principles often, but actually even before that, I think about how our ideas on leadership have been informed by things that they shouldn't be informed by. So for me, I think about the kind of leadership that I've seen displayed by predominantly Black women, especially Black women in my family. So I think about my mother, my grandmother, and my great-grandmother, and in various ways, the way that they showed up for community and the way that they led in community, that's inspiring to me.

00:37:08 Paul: And this is not a management philosophy that's written about, talked about in a book. But it is much more powerful than, you know, what I may have learned in any sort of course or program. And that is, I think, what inspires some of the ways that we work. It's about building community, and it's about centering whole people and looking out for those of us that have been made to struggle the most. I forgot what I was trying to answer, but–

00:37:34 Jess: No, that was really helpful. You're also reminding me of a conversation we had with a fellow nonprofit consultant named Kishshana Palmer. She was like interview number three on the podcast and she had self-identified herself. I don't know if that's the right word, but she basically said she's noticed that when people partner up, she's noticed that their businesses exponentially go faster in terms of mission accomplishment, revenue, whatever the thing is that people are trying to achieve. And so I'm sensing that theme is correct with both of you all matching up and pairing your different strengths together. And I think that that's awesome.

00:38:21 Jess: I also love how it sounds that you bring everyone on the team in to work on some of these larger questions. I was curious if it's everyone on the team's responsibility as far as new business or new business development or marketing, or if that sits in different lanes, or if that hasn't really been a need to focus on and you guys just have so many referrals coming to you that, that's not really an issue.

00:38:50 Laëtitia: That's a good question. Want me to start or you want to start?

00:38:54 Paul: You go ahead.

00:38:57 Laëtitia: I mean, I will say something, Paul. I've said that to Paul a lot. I think we've been fairly lucky in the sense that we had... And when I say we, Paul, we say, no, you have to, but Paul had a fairly big network of folks. I think there's also a lot of the work that we both did at FoodShare. We've other folks, obviously it wasn't just the two of us, there was a really great team of folks over there. So we had people knowing about the work and recognizing some of the impact that that work had had, not only within the organization, but I think across the sector in many ways. So that's what we came with. So I think reputation was kind of like something we didn't have to build, I think the same way that often a lot of folks may have to.

00:39:46 Laëtitia: So we've been definitely getting a lot of, like inquiries from, especially the first few months, like from people that we had a connection with. And then I think as the month went by, now we're getting a lot of folks reaching out that we don't know, we've never met them. They often come referred by other people that we have either worked with or not worked with, but have heard of us. So that's a lot of where we get our clients from. So that's a big portion of the work that Paul does in terms of meeting with those folks and building those early relationships because that's a really important piece.

00:40:26 Laëtitia: I think we try to also look at those opportunities not just as a transaction, like trying to get business out of the people, but really also just building a relationship. So it might not work out that we can work on a project for them right away for a variety of reasons, but I think for us it's just important to, you know, get to know them and for them to get to know us and how we work and how we function and maybe down the road, you know, there will be opportunities.

00:40:52 Laëtitia: And then the other portion of the work that we do is around responding to some requests for proposal. There's obviously tons of them out there. And so that's the work that most of the consultant and our lead consultant take on. So they're the one putting the proposal together and everything. And that's, but I would say most of our clients do come from folks that we meet with in person through interviews and meetings.

00:41:20 Paul: Including folks that don't pay us. So, you know, further to Laëtitia’s point, those conversations, you know, folks might not be in a position to pay for our services, they might just want to learn about our services, but we don't forget those folks, particularly the small grassroots groups. So there are groups that we work with through our pro bono program, where we allocate a percentage of our hours worked in one year and the next year on pro bono projects. So, you know, right now we're working with a group based in Montreal who probably didn't expect to hear from us again, you know. And we said, hey, we want to pick up that conversation and we understand where you're at. And we're willing to work with you and we don't, we won't expect you to pay us.

00:42:05 Cindy: Oh, I love that. I feel like you also just opened up a whole other conversation. But I want to, talking about being respectful of time and all of that, we do need to start wrapping up the conversation. So maybe we'll have to have you back at a future point. But you know, this is coming. Our favorite question is we'd love for you to share a confession with our listeners. So something about your business or the process so far that you maybe wouldn't be so quick to admit to.

00:42:44 Laëtitia: Yeah, [something] fun.

00:42:47 Paul: The name came to me in the bathroom.

00:42:55 Cindy: That’s a good one.

00:42:56 Laëtitia: That’s 100 percent–

00:42:58 Paul: Where the movement begin?

00:43:04 Laëtitia: I don't know about a confession. I think one of the things I'm starting to maybe realize more and more is, it's okay. Like prioritizing yourself, you know, and like not doing things because you feel you have to, but really doing things because they bring you joy. And I think that's easy to forget, and I forget that all the time, and I'm glad I have Paul sometimes to remind me to prioritize some of that. But I don't know if that's really a confession, but that would be.

00:43:35 Cindy: I think that that's an important… I love both confessions and like Paul, divine inspiration or whatever, you know? But I think sometimes, we get really good at protecting others. But when the buck stops with us, sometimes I've experienced where I can go a little harder, work those extra hours. And so I appreciate what you're saying, Laëtitia, about, you know, being mindful of that and doing for ourselves as we want to do for others. So I appreciate that.

00:44:11 Cindy: All right. Where can our listeners connect with both of you and learn more about the amazing work that you're doing?

00:44:22 Laëtitia: Website, Instagram.

00:44:28 Cindy: What's your, share your URL in the show notes.

00:44:32 Laëtitia: Yeah, eveningsandweekendsconsulting.com. And then you can get all our social media stuff. Yeah.

00:44:40 Paul: And one of the things, you know, we're really, again, recognizing that not everyone can afford our services. We're also trying to make some of the information, some of the expertise that our team has available to folks for free by offering free downloadable resources. So for folks listening, that definitely might be an interest, might be of interest to them. I would highly encourage folks to sign up for the newsletter. That's where we announce when we've got a new resource available for folks.

00:45:06 Cindy: Amazing. And your openness and transparency, I know one of the reasons why we have this podcast is because we're all nosy and we wanna know what other consultants are doing. And we don't like the gatekeeping and secrecy that goes along with that. So we really appreciate all of that as well, because we all wanna uplift each other. So thank you both so much for being part of this conversation and hopefully, we'll have you on again.

00:45:36 Paul: Thank you so much.

00:45:37 Laëtitia: Thank you so much.

00:45:38 Jess: Thank you.

00:45:42 Cindy: Thank you again for listening to the Confessions podcast for nonprofit coaches and consultants. If you enjoyed today's episode, which I sure hope you did, you can show your support in one of three ways.

00:45:53 Jess: Number one, post the screenshot of this episode to your Instagram stories or LinkedIn profile and tag Cindy and I so we can repost you.

00:46:01 Cindy: Number two, share this podcast with a fellow nonprofit coach or consultant.

00:46:06 Jess: And number three, leave a positive review on Apple podcasts so we can continue to grow and reach new listeners.

00:46:12 Cindy: And of course, make sure you subscribe so you can get the latest and greatest interviews as they drop every Thursday.

00:46:19 Jess: And to our fellow nonprofit coaching and consulting friends, remember, we're an open book and here to answer your burning biz questions.

00:46:26 Cindy: See you next time.

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