“Your referrals, all that kind of stuff, that is how you get known.” - Jess Campbell

Good Work vs. Looking Good - Confessions from ICON

In this episode, we dive into a thought-provoking discussion on marketing strategies and the undeniable impact of authenticity in the industry. We unpack the confessions from the ICON conference, addressing the blurred line between self-promotion and genuine expertise, and share our experiences on making strategic business investments. Whether you're navigating the world of nonprofit coaching and consulting or aiming to expand your business, this episode will empower you to carve your path to success.

• Key Highlights:

  • The Power of Authenticity In the episode, we delved into the debate about the relationship between marketing and the quality of your work. One thing that stood out is the power of authenticity. Authenticity is key in making a lasting impression. As nonprofit consultants, your reputation is your number one marketing tool, and nothing beats the authenticity and credibility that comes with doing impeccable work.

  • Finding Your Marketing Style We understand that not everyone's marketing journey will look the same. Whether you prefer a low-key approach or want to go all out, finding what works for you and your business is crucial. Understanding the platforms where you can showcase your work authentically is also important. Knowing the value of professional branding and marketing, and making investments strategically can help elevate your presence in the industry.

  • Long-term Play: Building Community At Confessions, we've always believed in the long-term strategy of community building. With the podcast being a powerful tool for marketing, we've seen the impact of community support and organic growth. Taking opportunities to showcase your work at events, conferences, or through networking can be a game-changer for your brand awareness and growth in the industry.

  • Making an Impact We've learned that making strategic investments in marketing can be a game-changer. It's about making a lasting impression and standing out. Your marketing efforts are an investment in your business and the impact you want to make in the nonprofit world.

To our fellow nonprofit coaching and consulting friends - remember, the journey to successful marketing isn’t made overnight. It’s about finding what works for you and your business. We're here to share our knowledge and create collective empowerment.

Find Us Online:  https://www.confessionswithjessandcindy.com/

Connect with Cindy:

Cindy Wagman Coaching: https://cindywagman.com/

The Good Partnership: https://www.thegoodpartnership.com/

Connect with Jess: 

Out In the Boons: https://www.outintheboons.me/

Transcript:

00:00:00 Cindy: Welcome to the Confessions podcast. I'm Cindy Wagman.

00:00:03 Jess: And I'm Jess Campbell. We're two former in-house nonprofit pros turned coaches and consultants to purpose driven organizations.

00:00:11 Cindy: After years of building up our separate six-figure businesses from scratch, we've thrown a lot of spaghetti at the wall and lived to see what sticks.

00:00:20 Jess: We're on a mission to help other nonprofit coaches and consultants looking to start or scale their own businesses past the six-figure mark by pulling back the curtain.

00:00:31 Cindy: Whether you're still working inside a non-profit and thinking of one day going out on your own, or you've been running your consulting business for years, you understand that working with nonprofits is just different. We're giving you access to the business leaders who serve nonprofits as their clients. You know, the people who truly get it.

00:00:52 Jess: No more gatekeeping, no more secrets. This podcast is going to give you an inside look at what running a successful nonprofit coaching and consulting business looks like. Basically, we're asking people how much money they make, how they get paid, and what has and hasn't worked in their businesses.

00:01:11 Cindy: Listen in as these leaders share their insights, their numbers, and the good, the bad, and the ugly when it comes to building a nonprofit coaching or consulting business. We're going to empower you to make the power moves that give you the income and freedom you set out to create from day one.

00:01:28 Jess: You ready? Let's go!

00:01:31 Jess: Hi, Cindy!

00:01:33 Cindy: Hi Jess! How's it going?

00:01:36 Jess: We're back!

00:01:37 Cindy: We’re back. We are about–

00:01:39 Jess: Is that something about, something maybe a little controversial.

00:01:42 Cindy: I know. I'm kind of excited. I like controversial conversations. So we're going to play for you all two confessions that we heard from our Confessions Booth at ICON in 2023. And then we will be back to talk about it. So take a listen.

00:02:02 Guest 1: Okay, you see nonprofit consultant confession. Some people look really, really good on the internet but their business is a total scam sham. Like they have the Instagram, they have the website, but they don't have clients and yet they report themselves to be fundraising experts, but they haven't ever actually raised a dime. So be on the lookout for frauds and fraudsters. People who are taking advantage of DE&I, people who are like the namesakes and given speeches are where

00:02:37 Guest 2: This isn't so much about my business. But my confession is that just because a consultant is very good at self-promotion or Twitter does not mean that they are a good fundraising consultant. In fact, often those things can be inversely related.

00:02:57 Cindy: Okay, so juicy stuff. I have, like, lots of mixed opinions and kind of like it depends on this idea of, like how you show up from a marketing perspective and how that ties back to the quality of work that you do. And I've seen a lot of really successful consultants. Here's what I'll say, before I say anything, you have to do good work, right? No one I think would challenge that assumption that if you want to be successful, you have to be good at your job. Doesn't matter how much you spend marketing or what your stuff looks like, your reputation becomes your number one marketing tool. Hands down, right?

00:03:50 Jess: Right.

00:03:51 Cindy: Like your referrals, all that kind of stuff. Like that is how you get known. But after that, like, you get to choose. Right? Like if you don't want to market and you want to be low key, word of mouth is amazing and free and you know, you can be really, really successful.

00:04:09 Jess: Yeah. It works both ways, right?

00:04:11 Cindy: Yeah. And also, I like marketing and I like things to look good and be presented in a certain way aesthetically. And so that's also okay. And you don't necessarily need a big budget for it, but it's totally, like for me, it's fun. I like–

00:04:31 Jess: Yeah, me too. I mean, you and I are in the same boat. I think that the one place that gets a little tricky is when you go kind of like,halfsie, right? Like when you are one kind of foot or halfway into the marketing thing and your marketing and your branding isn't consistent with maybe like your copy or it's not consistent with the quality of your work. Then I think it can almost do a little bit of a disservice because it just doesn't make you seem as credible.

00:05:03 Cindy: Yeah.

00:05:03 Jess: I mean, what's the stat right now? Like you have less than eight seconds to capture someone's attention. And so if someone's just finding you online and like, your website or your social channels are not aligned with maybe the word on the street or the referral that someone presented about you. I think it's actually going to work against you a bit. And there's things that you can do at a high level. Like we should talk about one of the investments you recently just made, but there's also things that you can do on a really low key level. For example, hiring a graphic designer to do your logo versus you trying to create something in Canva.

00:05:48 Cindy: Yeah.

00:05:48 Jess: You know, there's things that pan.

00:05:51 Cindy: Yeah. If you have a good design, you can create a logo in Canva that looks great. Like you make it your name, no designs, just like, good font. Right? Like I think you can go very far on a shoestring budget, but to your point, do it consistently. I would rather see you not have a website than have one that looks like it's from 1988. Obviously, internet's an existing system, but like, what I was actually thinking was like 1998 when the screen used to load photos where it would, like load line by line. Like if you're going to do it, do it well. And if you can't do it well on your own, then it is worth investing. And one of the early things I did invest in was brand photography. Right.

00:06:40 Cindy: And now I spend a lot more money on that. I can talk about the evolution of my brand photography, but always, always people used to say to me like, oh, you're like, your brand really stands out. And so I had a clear sense of what I wanted things to look like. But at the beginning, I bootstrapped it. I created my own logo, picked my own colors, you know, all those kinds of things. And I had a family friend do my photos. And it was very inexpensive. I think I paid like 200 bucks.

00:07:14 Cindy: Another year, I worked with a nonprofit that worked with youth who were like, who wanted to become photographers. And I hired someone from there to do, again for like, maybe 300 bucks. I think this past year, I probably spent $3,000 on brand photos. But I'm at that place where that's what, like I use them a lot. And it's aligned with where my business is. So you can look good without spending a lot.

00:07:51 Jess: For sure.

00:07:53 Cindy: And figuring out what is an investment in your business and your growth. So for me, what you were alluding to before, I did something that made me very uncomfortable. And so I recently… so I like public speaking and I'm getting really clear on what I want to speak about and how it serves people. And part of my business growth goals is to do more speaking at conferences and all that. In order to do that, I need to be seen as a serious speaker.

00:08:29 Jess: Right.

00:08:29 Cindy: Which means I want quality video of me speaking. So I hired a videographer and he followed me to a conference. And it felt really weird, but you know what? It was 100% worth it because now I, and I'm doing this for the next few conferences I'm speaking at because I want that material and the conferences, some of them provide it, but even if they do, it's not necessarily great. And this reflects me and my brand. So yeah, it's kind of a funny thing.

00:09:10 Jess: It is. And I want to... So I love that you did that. I love that you have a North Star. You're making the investments to get you to the places you want to go. I will say the one exception I will say to high quality videography and photos is something that I am being schooled on across social media, especially TikTok. There's data. I mean, it's just like the proof is in the pudding, that the more authentic and real you can be on social, the higher performing it's going to be.

00:09:45 Jess: So if you are a business owner who uses Instagram, TikTok especially, like just pulling out your phone, face to cam, being super real, super like unpolished is actually the kind of content that's performing way better than the like, shiny, glossy, whatever, whatever, whatever, things with a lot of cuts, things that are fast, things that are short. That's the one exception. I would say having high quality video and imagery that lives on your website is way different than what's on your TikTok feed or your Instagram feed.

00:10:29 Cindy: Exactly. Yeah, I would 100 percent agree that authentic, and even like, so I've gotten to a point where now my brand photography isn't just me, it's with my clients and stuff like that. And they're my real clients and all of that. But I found a photographer who is really good at capturing that authenticity. And I don't typically, well, I'm not really doing much on TikTok these days and Instagram, not really. So like, my platform is mostly LinkedIn. I use photos in presentations on my website and materials.

00:11:10 Cindy: So you have to know the platform. And again, if I want to be booking speaking, I need a professional sizzle reel. It doesn't, it shouldn't look like someone's phone, but if I'm posting some, if I'm posting a reel on Instagram, which I did today for the first time in a long time, you know, that's shot on my phone. I just like, it's uncut, it is what it is, and it's behind the scenes. So totally different things make sense in different arenas. But you gotta know what you want out of it and why you're doing it. And I don't think you need big marketing, but I think if you're gonna market, make it, to your point earlier, make it look decent.

00:11:58 Jess: Yeah. And I think that like what we're responding to in these, kind of voice messages that we've heard is like, there are people that maybe spend a little too much time or investment in their marketing. And at the end of the day, like we said at the top, your work needs to be able to stand on its own with or without marketing. And then the next level is deciding where and where you want to show up and how that presents to the people who aren't in your immediate circle, but the two, three, four degrees out, who have no idea who you are, where you're from, what you do, like what's their first impression, and what do you want that to be if you have less than eight seconds to capture that?

00:12:44 Jess: Because people just make decisions really, really, really quickly, and a lot of it is like, based on these vanity things, unfortunately. And so, but you could be a business that's like we said, super successful and doesn't do any marketing. And like–

00:12:59 Cindy: Yeah.

00:12:59 Jess: That's cool too.

00:13:00 Cindy: That's cool. I know a lot of people who are super successful. One of the things that you and I've been talking about now, planning for the new year is, AFP ICON in Toronto in 2024 and booths, like I'm doing another booth. We're not doing any confessions booth, sadly, sorry, but I'm doing one for the Fractional Fundraising Movement. And I could do a basic booth for like, you know, $4,000 all in. At the end of the day, it's probably gonna cost me 15 grand.

00:13:36 Jess: Yeah.

00:13:36 Cindy: But it's gonna be kick ass. I'm so, I don't want to give any teasers because I'm so excited. But like, I want, if I'm going to do it, I want it to stand out. I want it to be memorable.

00:13:49 Jess: For sure.

00:13:50 Cindy: Is it a little bit extravagant? Yeah, but that's okay. I feel like in that space, I need it to be. Right?

00:14:00 Jess: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, you will stand out above all the rest. And what's great is like, you've already done the math. Like you already know what you need to yield on the other side to make back that investment and you know, you just, it's not like, you haven't just like willy-nilly decided, like this is calculated and it's strategic.

00:14:23 Cindy: And–

00:14:23 Jess: Cindy is nothing if not strategic, y'all.

00:14:28 Cindy: But also, like, this is an instance where it's not just about the ROI in terms of cash. And I think that's important, too. I've done a lot of marketing and advertising where I'm looking very specifically, how much money did I make off of that spend? And this actually, I'm making the decision. It's not just about how much money I'm making coming out of it, which I think I will make money. And I think I will make my network of fractional fundraisers who are there money for themselves, which is also really good. But I want fractional fundraising to be mine.

00:15:14 Cindy: Now, I don't mean that in an exclusionary way. Obviously, there's so much room for other people to do this, but I want it to be like, oh, we need a fractional fundraiser. There's a network for that. I wanna become a fractional fundraiser. There's a really easy path for that. Like I want to lead this space.

00:15:37 Jess: You wanna be the Travis Kelce of fractional fundraising. You wanna be put on the map.

00:15:43 Cindy: I wanna be on the map and not just for my personal gain.

00:15:45 Jess: You guys, I love how the Canadian… Cindy has no idea what I'm talking about.

00:15:48 Cindy: I don’t know what you’re talking about.

00:15:49 Jess: Oh my gosh, Cindy, what are we gonna do with you? Have you even not been following these Taylor Swift, Travis Kelce?

00:15:55 Cindy: Oh, is this her new boyfriend?

00:15:57 Jess: And how there's this joke where all these wives are recording their husbands and they're like, isn't it great that like Taylor Swift put this Travis Kelce guy on the map and all of these men become enraged because he's like a two time Super Bowl champion and like probably the best whatever position he plays like in the league and they're all getting so defensive because they're making this reference, but they're like, isn't great. She like, put him on the map.

00:16:25 Cindy: I mean, I don't think that's cuz I'm Canadian. I just think that's cuz like I'm not of the right age for like, I appreciate Taylor Swift, but I don't listen to her and my kids are not into Taylor Swift. So I just don't, I don't know, but I know who she is. And I actually like her quite a bit.

00:16:44 Jess: I know who she is.

00:16:45 Cindy: I know who she is. I know she's seen, I knew she was seeing someone who was a footballer, if that's what they call them. I feel like that's more of, like what British would say about, like soccer, right? They're footballers. Anyways, clearly I know not the universe or it's–

00:17:07 Jess: It was just really funny because in my household, my husband is like a ginormous sports fan, all sports. It's like all he does is all the fantasy leagues. He plays basketball twice a week. Like it's ever consuming and as best he tries to convert me, I am like a hard line, no, I'm not being converted. So it was really funny when I did the joke to him because it makes sense. I have no idea what's going on. He actually didn't. He was actually really kind. He was like, I mean, she is really popular in the music. He was like, but he is a two-time champion, but I know how you wouldn't know that. I'm like, it's a joke. He was like, you got me so good.

00:17:51 Jess: And if you guys know Brad, which I hope everyone gets to meet Brad today because he's wonderful. But like, yeah, he did not. Some men got enraged. They were like, literally pissed and Brad wasn't like that at all. He was like, oh, how cute. She really doesn't know.

00:18:10 Cindy: No, my husband would be like, who? Worse than me. Worse than me.

00:18:16 Jess: We diverged.

00:18:19 Cindy: By the way, yes, so to me, there is something about market awareness. It doesn't necessarily drive sales in the short term, but in the long term is a bigger play. That's what we're talking about.

00:18:32 Jess: That's what we're saying here. And I mean, it would be interesting because we did together go really all in on our last ICON Booth. And because I don't have any of the behind the scenes data of this podcast, people are like, oh, is, listener up? Is listener ship up? I'm like, I don't know. I couldn't tell you how many people, listen to this podcast ever. I don't know because I don't have the numbers, that's all, Cindy. So we haven't even measured that.

00:19:00 Cindy: I don’t even look that often.

00:19:02 Jess: We haven't measured.

00:19:04 Cindy: We haven’t.

00:19:04 Jess: But my guess is yes, because people will anecdotally tell me that they have heard us. I will just say from, again being there, again, we talked about this in our ICON Recap episode, but like, it did. It really did just put us on the map for the people in the room, the photos we were able to take. It just did so much for us. That would have been a very different story if we had not gone all in, if we would have just had a folding table situation.

00:19:39 Cindy: Exactly. Interestingly, we did see a spike around ICON in listenership and things have been sort of progressively growing from there. So we, so yeah, we definitely, and for both of us, I think there is a lot of long-term play. Like we both acknowledge that, and we've talked about this on other episodes, people, there are some people who buy fast, and some people who buy slow. And the podcast in and of itself for us as a marketing tool, is not about selling fast, right? We're–

00:20:17 Jess: No.

00:20:18 Cindy: That is not why we do this. Most of you know, like we don't actively pitch our products very often on here, unless we're super excited and just think it's like, we need to share it. But really this is long-term community building for us that leads to sales, but it also might not, not everyone's gonna buy from us who listens and that's also okay. So.

00:20:44 Jess: Yeah, for sure.

00:20:45 Cindy: Yeah, yeah, cool. All right.

00:20:48 Jess: So how are you marketing? What are you doing, especially as we kind of are presenting this as we turn the corner on a new year?

00:20:56 Cindy: Yeah.

00:20:57 Jess: DM us, tell us what you're doing, or tell us, like what you wanna do, but maybe you're feeling a little apprehensive to do. And not that we have every answer, but you know, we are creative and there's a hundred different ways to make things look good. And I would just say again, like at the end of the day, nothing is going to be able to market you the way testimonials and the things other people will share about you, especially when you're not in the room. I just got a shout out, Sarah Heschley. I got an email today from someone that she met at a conference and Sarah whispered my name in a room when I wasn't there.

00:21:35 Jess: And that's how this person came into my world. And she was just so nice and complimentary. I just had to loop that back because that's what really matters and your work will stand. You know, it should be able to stand alone with or without the marketing, but if you are ready to take it up a notch, we're big fans of doing that.

00:21:57 Cindy: We are. We are. But we like it. So it works for our business, right?

00:22:02 Jess: Sure.

00:22:02 Cindy: Figure out what works for you in your business and go all in and share with us, as Jess said, what you are doing, what you like and don't like. And we'll see you on the next episode.

00:22:14 Cindy: Thank you again for listening to the Confessions podcast for nonprofit coaches and consultants. If you enjoyed today's episode, which I sure hope you did, you can show your support in one of three ways.

00:22:26 Jess: Number one, post a screenshot of this episode to your Instagram stories or LinkedIn profile and tag Cindy and I so we can repost you.

00:22:34 Cindy: Number two, share this podcast with a fellow nonprofit coach or consultant.

00:22:38 Jess: And number three, leave a positive review on Apple Podcasts so that we can continue to grow and reach new listeners.

00:22:44 Cindy: And of course, make sure you subscribe so you can get the latest and greatest interviews as they drop every Thursday.

00:22:51 Jess: And to our fellow nonprofit coaching and consulting friends, remember, we're an open book and here to answer your burning biz questions.

00:22:59 Cindy: See you next time.