Peek Behind-the-Scenes: Is Hosting a Retreat/Gathering Good For Your Business? with Kamilah Martin

"My goal is for us never to have to hustle for work again. All of us have been putting in 20 plus years into this game of leading organizations, being super successful, and then deciding that we've had enough of the traditional system and let's just build an ecosystem together. Proximity is the name of the game. That is the thing that has elevated me in my business." - Kamilah Martin

Peek Behind-the-Scenes: Is Hosting a Retreat/Gathering Good For Your Business? 

Get an inside look at the behind-the-scenes financials, marketing challenges, and partnership opportunities around hosting retreats and events in your business.

Both Kamilah and Jess lost money (and not just a little) hosting their first in-person events. Yet, they continue to explore this business model for its ability to facilitate powerful in-person connections in an online world.

In this raw conversation, Kamilah shares her experience hosting annual luxury retreats for Black and brown women entrepreneurs and the pivots her business has gone through. 

Jess discusses her virtual and in-person events for nonprofit fundraisers and consultants and her learnings around pricing, format, content, and size that create an intimate experience. 

They both explore potential sponsorships and partnerships to make their events more financially viable in the future while remaining aligned to their personal brands.

Key Highlights:

• Gain insight into retreat and conference business models in the nonprofit space, including the significant upfront investments required to host events and the immense marketing effort involved.

• Understand strategies around pricing events profitably through tiered pricing models and requiring deposits.

• Discover ideas for potential brand partnerships and sponsorships that feel authentic by bundling offers and requiring budget transparency.

• Recognize the importance of proximity and intimate gatherings for referral marketing: "You can't get close to someone, you don't have proximity."

If you've considered hosting events in the nonprofit consulting space, this transparent glimpse behind the scenes is essential listening to inform your strategy going forward. Tune in now to join Kamilah and Jess as they share their wins, challenges, and future plans.

00:00:00 Introduction to Nonprofit Coaching and Consulting

Cindy and Jess, former nonprofit pros turned coaches, share their mission to help others in the nonprofit sector scale their businesses. They discuss the unique challenges and successes of running coaching and consulting businesses for nonprofits.

00:02:40 Evolution of Retreats and Events Business

Kamilah Martin shares her journey of organizing retreats for black and brown women, highlighting the financial challenges faced and the pivot to smaller local events. Jess discusses the shift from online to in-person events for nonprofit fundraisers and consultants.

00:06:36 Challenges of Hosting Events

Kamilah and Jess discuss the exhaustive process of organizing events, from marketing efforts to financial sustainability. They reflect on the importance of in-person gatherings and the impact on workload and energy.

00:08:50 The Challenges of Communicating and Selling a Unique Event

Communicating the importance of an innovative event to busy audiences, facing the challenge of being trailblazers in a unique retreat for black and brown women in the nonprofit space.

00:11:33 Financial Struggles and Considerations for Event Planning

Discussing the financial challenges of hosting in-person events, acknowledging significant financial losses, and exploring the potential profitability of future events.

00:12:44 Exploring Sponsorship Strategies and Value Propositions

Considering traditional sponsorship routes, bundling offers for long-term brand partnerships, and leveraging community impact to attract sponsors for events.

00:15:28 The Value of Brand Partnerships and Authenticity

Emphasizing brand building through partnerships, sharing experiences of protective brand management, and avoiding partnerships that feel disingenuous.

00:18:33 Prioritizing Authenticity Over Sponsorship Opportunities

Prioritizing authenticity in sponsor selection, refraining from partnering with sponsors that do not align with the event's values, and valuing genuine connections over financial gains.

00:18:56 Struggling with Partnership and Sponsorship Decisions

Discussion on challenges evaluating tech companies for partnership and sponsorship alignment with personal values and product endorsements.

00:20:19 Making Offerings Accessible and Capitalizing on Opportunities

Exploring the importance of making offerings accessible while valuing personal worth and navigating internal barriers like pricing strategies.

00:22:20 Detachment from Product Endorsement and Deep Partnership Conversations

Distinguishing between product endorsement and deep partnership, emphasizing the influence over the audience and willingness to experiment with products.

00:25:04 Elevating Small Businesses and Partnering with Nonprofit Consultants

Discussing the idea of elevating small businesses, hosting conferences with nonprofit vendors, and identifying potential dream partners in the industry.

00:27:42 Anti-RFP Stance and Value in Community Building

Sharing perspectives on being anti-RFP, advocating for alternatives, and highlighting the value of community building in accessing opportunities.

00:29:42 The Importance of Paid Transparency in RFPs

Discussing the significance of listing budgets in RFPS for equity and proper scoping, considering platforms with paid transparency for serious consideration.

00:31:46 Navigating Partnerships and Sponsorships in Events

Exploring the challenges of serving multiple customers (attendees and sponsors) in events, questioning the necessity and impact of having partners for profitability.

00:33:15 Experimenting with Tiered Pricing and Celebrity Involvement

Considering tiered pricing options, VIP packages, and celebrity appearances to enhance event experiences and attract a specific audience like black and brown women entrepreneurs.

00:35:34 Catering to Different Entrepreneurial Levels in Events

Reflecting on the value proposition for entrepreneurs at different business stages, exploring the need for specialized teachings for different levels of success in business.

00:39:50 Embracing the Gift of Gathering

Acknowledgment of the gift of gathering and the importance of being smart in business decisions to ensure profitability.

00:42:52 Scaling Conversations and Reaching New Audiences

Discussion on the need for scaling conversations, accessing new audiences, and the value of experiences over programming in events like retreats.

00:43:43 Community for Nonprofit Consultants

Introduction to the Catalyst Nonprofit Consultant Mastermind Community for women of color transitioning into independent consulting, emphasizing holistic support and diverse membership.

00:45:44 Upcoming Retreat and Networking Opportunities

Details about the upcoming Catalyst Field Trip and CEO Day retreat, emphasizing fun and business focus, along with the importance of proximity in networking and referrals.

00:48:54 Support and Engagement with the Podcast

Ways to support the Confessions podcast for nonprofit coaches and consultants, including sharing episodes, leaving reviews, and encouraging engagement in the community.

Find Us Online:  https://www.confessionswithjessandcindy.com

Connect with Kamilah: 

Katalyst Consulting (Website): https://www.katalystconsult.com/ 

Kamilah Martin (Linkedin): https://www.linkedin.com/in/kamilahmartin 

Connect with Cindy:

Cindy Wagman Coaching https://cindywagman.com

Fractional Fundraising Network https://www.fractionalfundraising.co/

LinkedIn:  https://ca.linkedin.com/in/cindywagman

Connect with Jess: 

Out In the Boons: https://www.outintheboons.me

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jess-campbell-outintheboons/ 

Transcript:

[00:00:00 - 00:00:03]
Welcome to the Confessions podcast. I'm Cindy Wagman.

[00:00:03 - 00:00:11]
And I'm Jess Campbell. We're two former in house nonprofit pros turn coaches and consultants to purpose driven organizations.

[00:00:11 - 00:00:20]
After years of building up our separate six figure businesses from scratch, we've thrown a lot of spaghetti at the wall and have lived to see what sticks.

[00:00:20 - 00:00:30]
We're on a mission to help other nonprofit coaches and consultants looking to start or scale their own businesses past the six figure mark by pulling back the curtain.

[00:00:30 - 00:00:51]
Whether you're still working inside a nonprofit and thinking of one day going out on your own or you've been running your consulting business for years, you understand that working with nonprofits is just different. We're giving you access to the business leaders who serve nonprofits as their clients. You know, the people who truly get it.

[00:00:51 - 00:01:10]
No more gatekeeping, no more secrets. This podcast is going to give you an inside look at what running a successful nonprofit coaching and consulting business looks like. Basically, we're asking people how much money they make, how they get paid, and what has and hasn't worked in their businesses.

[00:01:11 - 00:01:27]
Listen in as these leaders share their insights, their numbers, and the good, the bad, and the ugly. When it comes to building a nonprofit coaching or consulting business, we're going to empower you to make the power moves that give you the income and freedom you set out to create from day one.

[00:01:28 - 00:01:32]
You ready? Let's go. Hey, Jess.

[00:01:32 - 00:01:35]
Hi. This is so silly.

[00:01:35 - 00:01:38]
We've been having this conversation. I'm like, stop.

[00:01:38 - 00:01:41]
We need to hit record for 30.

[00:01:41 - 00:01:44]
Minutes when three friends get together.

[00:01:46 - 00:02:07]
Yeah. Oh. So we're literally just going to kind of dive into this conversation because this is a true behind the scenes. Almost like a mini master. Like you, our listeners are getting a glimpse into almost like a mastermind session. Like, what are we talking about? How are we thinking about things in our businesses? So our guest for this conversation is Kamilah Martin.

[00:02:07 - 00:02:09]
Hey, Camilla, the one and only.

[00:02:09 - 00:02:11]
Hey, ladies. Good to see you again.

[00:02:12 - 00:02:40]
And for those who haven't, go back and listen to Kamilah's first interview on the podcast. Let's. Okay, let's do a little background, because I think that's going to be helpful in terms of being a fly on the wall in this conversation. So we have been talking about retreats and in person conferences. Kamilah, tell us a little bit about what you do in this context and maybe a little bit about the changes your business has gone through.

[00:02:40 - 00:03:33]
Yeah, sure. So I started the. I had the idea in this was 2021, I think, of bringing black and brown women together to restore and be poured into and to exhale. Just with everything that was happening in the world, both around sort of the George Floyd era, as well as COVID and sort of us being caregivers and everything and taking care of everybody, I was just like, I'm tired. I'm exhausted. Let's come together and just figure out, like, our life, right? And so I put that out there, and it turned into an event. And so I hosted and I wanted to be luxurious. That was my main thing. I was like, you know, I just come from a retreat where I lived in a yurt for a week. Like an artist, I did photography. Like, this is amazing. And the concept of being able to get away, and their model was, like, radical self care. So they had a. A chef who came and made us farm to table meals. And I was like, I love this concept, but I don't want to. I don't want to. Who in an outhouse?

[00:03:33 - 00:03:35]
Like, I want to, like, no yurt.

[00:03:36 - 00:03:40]
The yurt was actually cool. It was just the open bathroom that I kind of was.

[00:03:40 - 00:03:40]
Yeah.

[00:03:40 - 00:06:36]
Anyway, I wanted. I wanted a more luxurious. I mean, there's a place for that, right? Like, I would totally go back again, but, like, I want this. Plus, you know, like, five star service, and I had never experienced that in my life, honestly. So I was like, if I'm going to build something, might as well do something that I've never done and bring a bunch of people along with me. And so I ran that retreat. It was me by myself. I held it sort of in my backyard in Orlando, Florida, at the Ritz Carlton here. I brought in a girlfriend who had started coaching practice, and so she was sort of my co pilot in leading a lot, a few sessions with the participants around visioning, which fit really well into the themes that I was trying to accomplish there. And then I did a second one the next year. I wanted it international, so I did a second one at the half Moon resort in Montego Bay, Jamaica. I exclusively and explicitly wanted to try and find hotels that were owned or managed by either local people or people of color. And so found this one. It was fabulous. I think probably the best one that we did. And then after that, we had one in Costa Rica. And then I decided to stop. And I decided to stop for a few reasons. I was very vocal about. Not vocal, but just, like, I don't know, vulnerable, I guess, about my reasons why. The first retreat, I made money, like, about $5,000. The second retreat, I lost money because it was so high end, and I did not have sponsors, and it had to be expensive for me to basically pay. And I'll say, also with that second retreat, I'm diving in. Sorry. Also that second retreat, I mean, we've been talking for 30 minutes. I feel like I'm already warmed up. That second retreat, I built a team, so I hired an event planner and I hired a media strategist to do headshots for the ladies. We did. He got us a lot of, like, you know, background footage and photos and things like that. So I considered it an investment like that I was making, but I did not fill the seats in order to cover that because it was so expensive. And I think it was like, 7600. And I needed, I think, ten or twelve people to actually break even. And I think I got nine, nine, nine or so. And then the last, the third year, we decided to try it again. Of course, everybody's like, when are we doing this again? And then not everyone commits. Like, that's just the reality of it for various reasons, whether it's timing or they can't afford it or, you know, so nothing. I don't take it personally, but, you know, it was. It takes a lot out of other things that I could be doing, you know, and it's a very exhaustive, you know, process to put together an event. So I decided not to do one for 2024 and decided to experiment. Instead of big international things, do a smaller, two smaller local things. And so I came up with the idea of the Katalyst Field Trip and CEO Day again with, I wanted us to come together and just kind of have fun and exhale, but also do some work together and mastermind together. So that's the, that's the history of our Katalyst events and kind of the status of where things are now. I'm happy to talk more about the two events that we did and kind of those pivots and what happened, but that's. That's the background.

[00:06:36 - 00:06:51]
Awesome. And for everyone who hasn't been a long time listener, just know about Jess's stuff. I feel like that's also important context of the conversation. Jess, you want to talk about make it happen live and what you're thinking about as well going forward?

[00:06:51 - 00:08:44]
Yeah. Yeah. So since 2019, I've been gathering and hosting events online for both nonprofit fundraisers, which is my dominant community, and then also for nonprofit consultants. So I have a Raise More Together conference that I've ran like, six or seven times. Thousands of people have come through it. And then I also host Make it Happen, which is a virtual conference for nonprofit consultants. And I think, like, a lot of people that are on Zoom way too many hours in their week, I was like, I cannot do another anything. Like, I can't do it. And, you know, the world is also opening up. We did ICON last year, Cindy and I, and so. And then I went to some more local things, and I just, like, really felt the power of gathering in person. There really is no substitute. And this is from someone that very much believes in online community. I host Build Better Together. I have hundreds of people in a slack channel. I really do think that there is a place for virtual connection, but there's also a place for in-person that people are really craving. And I felt that. Like, in my bones, I felt that. And so I, too, hosted Make it Happen in February of 2024. So we're a couple months post that, and, you know, similar to what Kamilah just described, it's a lot of effort. And what I think people don't understand is it's not just the effort of the production, it's the effort of the marketing that is required to get people there. So it's like this double effort on top of your workload.

[00:08:44 - 00:08:50]
I would say more. So the marketing. Right. Like, that was my experience. Like, that was the most draining part for me.

[00:08:50 - 00:11:33]
Yes. Because in our heads, we're like, we've been talking about this thing forever and ever, and, like, it just is such a reminder that you need to communicate, like, 100 billion times more than you think you do, because people are just busy, and what's a priority to you is not necessarily a priority to other people. Or they're like, it's on their list of things to do, but they just need that. Another trigger. Another trigger. Another trigger. I'll also say, I think a tricky thing for probably both Camille and our experience is, like, I don't know of another luxurious retreat for black and brown women in the nonprofit or nonprofit consulting space. I don't know of another in-person conference designed just for nonprofit consultants. So in many ways, we're like the firsts, the trailblazers, which I'm really proud of, like myself. I hope, Kamilah, you are as well of yourself. But it also makes it really hard to sell something that people haven't seen before. There's a reason why thousands of people go to some of these major conferences is because, like, they've been going forever, 30 years. There's testimonials, there's photographs. Like, people are like, know what they're gonna get. And I think for both Kamilah and I, we both wanted to do it very different. Like, I would have rather died than, like, host my conference in, like, a convention center or a hotel ballroom. And I kept trying to sell the vibe, which is such a hard thing to sell, and it's actually not what I think sells tickets, and it's hard, and it's what people talk about. Talk about. And they're like, this is so different. And you're like, how do you bottle that magic up and then resell it the next time? It's really. It's a. It's a difficult thing to persuade people to do, and I think - I've only hosted mine once. I'm still, like, deciding for the next phase. I am, like, 90% sure I will host my other conference in person, the one for fundraisers, but I'm still deciding if Make it Happen should be an annual or maybe a bi-annual experience, because nonprofit consultants are not my main audience. Like, in many ways, at many points along the way, I was like, does this make any sense for my business? Like, no, but, like, if I don't do it, who else will do it? You know? It kind of felt like my give-back to the world, if I'm being totally honest. And I don't think it'll be like that forever, but I. You just have to, like, ask yourself all these different questions when you're going through it, and. And it's tough.

[00:11:33 - 00:11:48]
It's really hard, so. And, like, one of the things we were talking about before we hit record was, you know, partnerships and sponsorships and looking at, how do we. Because financially, it's a very difficult model.

[00:11:48 - 00:11:48]
Right.

[00:11:48 - 00:11:51]
In-person is more expensive.

[00:11:51 - 00:12:03]
I mean, just a little. Like, both Kamilah and I can say, like, we both lost thousands of dollars on our. So not, like, cute thousands, like, significant thousands of dollars.

[00:12:03 - 00:12:29]
And when you consider time, like, time invested, your time you could be using for other revenue-generating activities is not profitable. But it does, I think, like, what? I feel like we're kind of circling this idea of, like, it's not profitable or hasn't been profitable, but maybe it still could be profitable. Right? Like, I feel like we all are kind of.

[00:12:29 - 00:12:31]
Like, I think there's something there.

[00:12:31 - 00:12:32]
So.

[00:12:32 - 00:12:43]
Yeah. Kamilah, what are you thinking in terms of, like, sponsorship and partnerships and, like, what would that look like? Or what are you toying around with going forward or thinking about this going forward?

[00:12:44 - 00:12:52]
Yes. So where do I even start with that? I did want to say something. Gosh, a thought popped into my mind from something Jess had said, and then it popped right on out.

[00:12:53 - 00:12:55]
It'll come back, when it comes interject it.

[00:12:56 - 00:15:28]
Okay. Um, so this gear, you know, when I was considering, there's a few. There's a couple things I was considering. One thing was exploring just the traditional sponsorship route, like. Right. Like having someone's logo plastered on our, you know, actually first print a program so that we can have a logo plaster on it. Right. Or like, on the website, and then sort of, you know, advertising, doing some sort of advertising or mentions about the sponsors as we're marketing for the event. And so we're in the process of reaching out to people. However, I wanted to flip it a little bit because we didn't talk about it. But I also run a community for basically black and brown nonprofit women consultants, and I think there's more value in that for the sponsor than in the actual retreat experience, because, you know, the retreat experience, yes, will reach the thousands of people that, like, I have following me on LinkedIn, but in person, it's only going to reach, like, the ten or 15 people that are there. Right. And so that's not an easy sell. But I'm like, if you look at it as a bigger, excuse me, package of sponsoring Katalyst. Right. Sponsored Katalyst for a year, and we'll put your stuff on all of our things for that year, including the retreat, including in my newsletter, including, you know, some potential LinkedIn shout-outs or part, you know, mentions or other kind of new innovative collaborations. Like, could I be, like, an influencer on LinkedIn in some kind of way? Right. And so those are the kinds of things that I've been trying to explore, I've reached out to. So I actually hired someone to help me create a partnership and sponsorship deck. And so we're just playing around with sort of a draft version of that. I got one bite back, but I also invested in some data work as well, and impact work. So I hired someone to really tell the story of the impact of our community. What's the reach of our nonprofit consultant community? You know, are they talking to the budget holders at organizations? What size organizations are these? You know, so that people who are trying to get into the nonprofit space space and sell their products and services to nonprofits see the value in our community, which is a very, very highly engaged community within Katalyst, as the bigger prize. Right. And so that's how I'm framing it. I think, moving forward, once we get the deck done, we'll do another outreach and see how a/b testing, whatever, see how that lands. But I think that feels more authentic and valuable to me. I think and is more valuable to the potential partner than just having a, a partner sponsor an event.

[00:15:28 - 00:15:34]
Yeah, yeah, that's smart. Like, so bundling your offers, essentially, and having a more like a long term commitment.

[00:15:34 - 00:15:39]
It's a brand partnership. It's, it'd be a brand partnership. So. Yeah, and that's what I was gonna say. Brand. So.

[00:15:39 - 00:15:40]
Got it.

[00:15:41 - 00:16:36]
Ding, ding, ding. 40 something year old brain work and kicking back in. So when you were saying about like, the eventual benefit of the retreats and having all those photos and stuff, the reason that I consider sort of the loss of year two as an investment was because I think was part of the brand building. You know, like, Jess, even with your conference, I was there. It was incredible. Like, the people that I met, I'm still talking to, like, to this day, I just talked to someone yesterday or, no, Friday. And so I think it's about being able to have that be part of the story of your brand moving forward. Right. Like, you know, I think the Katalyst brand is about sort of freedom and liberation and fun and, you know, and I think having those images and stuff even just out there in the, in the Internets, you, you know, is a good way of building that brand as well. So when you do get ready to continue to launch these things, more and more people recognize you for whatever that feeling and that vibe is, even though it's hard to sell like that. Right?

[00:16:36 - 00:18:31]
Yeah, yeah, for sure. I love the way. So I have always been reluctant, I don't know the word to use except, like, protective over my brand when it comes to, out comes to external partnerships. I just personally, like, haven't ever had an, an amazing or even like, good experience. Good experience. I was going to call it like a, like A grade. Like, I was going to give it like a B minus experience. Like, I've just never had that. And for make it happen, I decided to not do partnerships. I should back up. I actually reached out to, like, three small businesses that I thought were super aligned. So I reached out to someone who did my private podcast. I reached out to a CFO who specifically works with nonprofit consultants. Maybe it was just those two. I can't. I think that was just those two. And at the end of the day, these are small businesses, like the three we run. And I think the idea of sponsorship was, like, very big for them. You know, like, maybe they've run a few hundred dollars worth of Facebook ads before, but they've never participated as a sponsor or like, exhibited at a conference. So I think just again, here we are, like, trailblazing away. It was just like, for the first time, they were like, whoa. You know? And it was. I had an expensive price tag to be in front of these people because I didn't want, just like, any old person. And I decided that if those couple of folks weren't going to work out, I was not going to go to, like, all of the nonprofit vendors that just didn't feel aligned. It just felt to me, like, I don't know, could you even have imagined them, like, there in San Clemente? Like, it would have been.

[00:18:33 - 00:18:50]
Can we imagine, like, can we re-envision this? Right? Like, I love what you're doing, Kamilah, because you're saying, no, I can't imagine having a sponsor for a retreat, that feels disingenuous and what are they going to do with this audience?

[00:18:50 - 00:18:52]
I didn't do fake. I can't do fake.

[00:18:52 - 00:18:54]
Yeah, I.

[00:18:54 - 00:18:56]
Yes, so, yeah, go ahead. Sorry.

[00:18:56 - 00:20:18]
No, that's exactly like, it just feels really unaligned with I think all the work that we collectively do. So what are our options? And, Jess, I know you and I are talking about, what are other assets that we have individually and collectively that we can build partnership and sponsorship around, but we're still struggling with. Like, I struggle with.. tech companies are kind of, like, all the same. Right. And how do I evaluate which ones I do want to work with and which I don't want to work with? I kind of don't want to endorse. A lot of them are, like, I heard from one friend, because I've been asking people who they like working with, which is really important to me. So other consultants, like, which are the companies that you find good to work with? And some of them, they love working with ones that I would never recommend that product, and some that seem like a really good product are nightmare to work with. And so I'm like. Like, this just. And has to feel, like, again, authentic just because they're good to work with. If I don't like their product, I don't want to do that. Right. So it's kind of like, who and how are both these huge question marks right now?

[00:20:19 - 00:20:27]
I don't know if you have anything to start with, Kamilah. I would be curious because I'm like, part of me is just like, is that worth it?

[00:20:28 - 00:20:39]
So for me, it's worth it because I need the capital, right? Like, my price tag is $10,000. Right. And so, like, for me, the conversation is, how do I make what I want to offer more accessible to the people who need it.

[00:20:39 - 00:20:40]
Yeah.

[00:20:40 - 00:22:20]
Although I didn't. I mean, I was at a conference last week at Arlen Hamilton's, your first million live conference, and there was a woman who I met at another conference who I sat next to, and her retreat is $10,000, and she, like, did it without blinking an eye. And for me, I'm like, oh, my God, you know, so there's that internal thing that I need to sort of unwire and make sure that I'm attracting the people who understand that that is a normal thing, and that's the kind of investment you're getting for a small, intimate, luxurious, five star, everything included, you know, thing. But for the sponsorship question, I'm so I. Alignment. Yes. I'm a little bit more detached from me endorsing a product. Like, I don't necessarily feel like I have to align with the product. I will have a disclaimer, perhaps, or I'll say, you're grown ups. You can. You can vet and figure this out for yourself. Right. Unless they're, of course, like, ethically against every, you know, things that are not values of mine. Right. But I'm willing to experiment with a product and just say that, you know, their sponsor. I, you know, I don't know what language I would use, but I'm. I'm detached from needing to align myself with the product. Now, if we're talking about the partnership, that's a different equation. Like, if I just want to plaster your logo on something, if I feel decent about the conversation, you want to put your logo and send somebody to the conference to attend or talk for a couple minutes. I prefer not to do that. But, like, if you just want to get on the logo and, like, me, mention your name a couple times, fine. There's a partnership that's going to be a much more deeper conversation, a much more deep conversation, for all the reasons that you talked about, cindy, like that, because that's me and my personal brand sort of aligning with someone's product.

[00:22:20 - 00:22:29]
That's like, the influencer idea where you are. You have that influence over your audience, and. Yeah, that's what they're kind of buying into.

[00:22:29 - 00:22:40]
Yeah. And I think because I'm just. Because I'm distinguishing as those, as two completely separate things, I'm able to detach myself from the first feeling like I'm endorsing a product. So I don't personally don't mind that.

[00:22:40 - 00:23:23]
I know that some of it is, like, a mindset thing. And I actually surveyed folks at my make it happen conference to ask, like, would this be a deterrent? And I want to say, like, 90% of folks could care less, and then there was actually 10% that cared very much, and they were, like, all the way there. And it's like, okay, I can't please everyone. Part of it, though, is my protectiveness and my mindset. But then part of it is also, like, I'm not willing to do some of the things that are required to have brand partnerships. For example, I would never give email addresses away. Like, I just won't do it. And that's probably a pretty high requirement for a lot of brand partners for an event.

[00:23:23 - 00:23:34]
Oh, yeah, yeah. For. See, I agree. Like, I would never. Like, you can offer an opt in or something to collect email addresses, but you don't, by default, would never do that.

[00:23:34 - 00:25:04]
No. And there's also something in me that, like, really wants to, which is, like, definitely the harder route. Like, classic jazz, just let it be easy one time. But, like, wants to elevate the small business. So, for example, for raise more together, my virtual. My conference, I'm thinking of hosting for fundraisers. I actually think, like, wouldn't it be absolutely incredible if there were no nonprofit tech vendors and only nonprofit consultants there? Like, as exhibitors and as sponsors? You know, like, someone with their major gift program, someone that runs, you know, does the major gifting, someone that has a hard copy appeal shop? Like, and elevating these kinds of brands, I think, would be amazing. And then I flipped that for my other conference. We all three were in the room, and so we all got to hear the brilliance of Rachel Baerbauer's 20-minute session, where she walked us through this automation of someone purchasing something. And then in the end, they get a card from a company called Handwritten actually mailed to them. And I was like, holy smokes. Like, Handwritten would be an amazing partner and, like, to have Rachel as their facilitator, you know what I mean? And they just kind of got that. But I'm like, that's the kind of brand I feel like that's really, like.

[00:25:04 - 00:25:13]
Aligned and integrated. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so who would be like, what is a dream list of potential partners?

[00:25:13 - 00:25:15]
Because, well, Kamilah is farther down.

[00:25:15 - 00:25:16]
Yeah, Kamilah, who are you?

[00:25:16 - 00:25:19]
Like, I started a little list.

[00:25:19 - 00:25:46]
There's, like, three company names on it right now, and they're not even dreams. So who. Who have we heard good things about, too? Because I. I feel like one of the cool things about the, like, working with other consultants is we get to hear the things I don't even know if the tech companies or other partners, like, know that we'll talk to each other, but it's a small community, so. Yeah. Who are we thinking of?

[00:25:47 - 00:26:02]
I don't have the answer to that. Mainly because the list that was sent to me, I kind of just blasted it out without doing too much research. I kind of let her pick who she thought was aligned. So if I have to name, you know, GiveButter is kind of on my radar for a couple of reasons.

[00:26:02 - 00:26:08]
I just read today that they just got, like, was it $50 million in VC funding? Oh, really?

[00:26:08 - 00:26:09]
I didn't see that. Yeah.

[00:26:09 - 00:26:13]
Yeah, but also, like, that's.

[00:26:13 - 00:26:14]
Was it Floyd who was there?

[00:26:14 - 00:26:14]
Who left?

[00:26:14 - 00:26:15]
Yeah.

[00:26:15 - 00:26:24]
So now I'm. I. Like, I hear they're good to work with, but people don't know anymore because they're like, he's not there. That was the main contact. So it'll be interesting to see what happens with that.

[00:26:24 - 00:26:37]
Yeah, well, I'm about to reach back out to them, so I'll let you know that I think. Butter, you're on. You're on alert. And there's another one, y'all. I'm telling my brain. It's like stuff comes and goes in, like, a flash. Who is it? Okay, y'all are gonna have to.

[00:26:37 - 00:27:02]
While you think. While you think about one of the episodes I haven't mentioned to Jess, but I actually want to have someone come on and talk about perimenopause. Just as an FYI, Jess, because memory is something, and memory and energy is showing up a lot for so many people I work with who are experiencing, like, early. I mean, perimenopause is, by definition, early, but, like, we don't call it out for what it is.

[00:27:02 - 00:27:13]
So, anyways, the funny thing is real. For whatever reason, in our community, that is a topic of conversation, at least weekly. I'm about to start, like, an entire space, like, a private one of our.

[00:27:13 - 00:27:14]
Like, a channel.

[00:27:14 - 00:27:24]
Yeah, perimenopause channel. Like, we're sharing, like, topical things and, like, exercise practices. But, yes, it matters.

[00:27:24 - 00:27:41]
It matters. It's so prevalent right now for, like, I don't know if it's just, like, the people I know, but everyone. Everyone. And it affects our motivation in work and it affects our memory. Anyways, just here for that. That is another conversation you're gonna have.

[00:27:41 - 00:27:42]
I'm trying to think.

[00:27:42 - 00:27:43]
Who else?

[00:27:43 - 00:27:49]
Yeah, I mean, Cindy, I haven't looked at our sheet, so I'm trying to think. I mean, if Handwritten's not on there. They probably should be.

[00:27:49 - 00:27:53]
Yeah. Hold on. I can tell you I'd be really interested.

[00:27:53 - 00:27:54]
Prozal.

[00:27:54 - 00:27:54]
Yeah.

[00:27:54 - 00:28:10]
Okay. But, like, Prozal. Let's talk about them. Like, if they're listening. It's just I really like them. I actually think what they've designed is cool, but, like, at least the consultants and Build Better Together are, like, anti-proposals, RFPs.

[00:28:10 - 00:28:11]
Yeah.

[00:28:11 - 00:28:15]
So I'm like, so you're just like, I know.

[00:28:15 - 00:28:16]
I know you know.

[00:28:16 - 00:28:26]
And so I do think there's a. There's a definite group of consultants out there that that's actually how they do business development. And so it's like.

[00:28:26 - 00:28:35]
And really profitably, like, really well. But for the people, again, in our networks, I feel like it's not huge, but to Kamilah's point, like, maybe that's okay.

[00:28:35 - 00:28:36]
I know, I know.

[00:28:37 - 00:28:43]
Yeah. I think they're trying. I think they're trying to bridge. I think they're trying to bridge it. Right?

[00:28:43 - 00:28:44]
Like, it's not.

[00:28:44 - 00:29:03]
They're trying to give access opportunities to people, you know, who might not otherwise see them by building that community. So I do think there is a value in it. I am staunchly anti-RFP, so we can just put that out there and, like, stamp it. Like, I have not gotten. I've not gotten one gig from an RFP.

[00:29:04 - 00:29:05]
I've never even.

[00:29:05 - 00:29:42]
Yeah, and, like, interestingly, this is all interesting. And so it's, like, tied together. So I did one post on LinkedIn, my only post in my life that ever went viral, and it was about how awful RFPs are. And it got, like, amazing. Five, six, 7000. I don't even know what it was. Anyway, I ended up so resurfacing it last week because I was facilitating this other thing, and everyone was talking about RFPs. I'm y'all, this has been a conversation for some time. So I'm, like, staunchly against RFPs. However, if they're going, they're. They're not going away. So if they're going to be there, we might as well figure out a way to make it better. And I think that's the pros of it.

[00:29:42 - 00:30:13]
One of the things I would. I don't actually know. I've never used their platform, but if they had paid transparency, then I would very seriously consider it. So, like, a lot of RFPs don't list budget. And to me, that's a huge, like, piece of commitment to equity. And also, like, having consultants understand if it's worth their time and that they can properly scope. So if that was a requirement to have a posting like an RFP on their platform, I would very seriously consider that.

[00:30:13 - 00:30:32]
I have no idea. I don't know if it's a requirement, but so I do. So Alfredo and I do talk, like, we work with each other a little bit. And he sends me, like, a handful of proposals every week. And all the ones he sent me have had the pay attached to them. So I haven't gone in to see if it's a requirement or not. But I will say that none of them have not had it so far.

[00:30:32 - 00:30:33]
Yeah, that is good.

[00:30:33 - 00:30:33]
Yeah.

[00:30:33 - 00:31:46]
Yeah, I mean, I guess I. Because I want to talk about another side of in-person gatherings, too. But my kind of wondering thought, especially for Kamilah, is when you have partners and sponsorships, the way my head slices it up is it also means your customer is also split. So you have your audience, your customer, that is the attendee, and then you have another customer now that you have to serve, which is the sponsor or the partner or the whatever. And that's a lot. And so I'm just, like, sitting here thinking, do I want to have two customers? Because I do think that there is a way, at least for the way that I have, like, priced my events and things, that, like, I can have a profitable experience without partners. It obviously makes it a lot easier with partners, but it also becomes a different set of work. And I think, especially if anyone's out there, like, thinking about this, I think you have to ask yourself that question a bit.

[00:31:46 - 00:31:46]
Yeah.

[00:31:47 - 00:32:22]
I want to talk to you about price, because you've mentioned that your retreat was around, like, $7,600, I think was the price you named. I will say, for my make it happen event, I had two tickets. One was $2,000, the other one was, like, roughly $1,000. And I found it way easier to sell the $2,000 ticket, the more expensive ticket, like, way. I'm curious, but then you. But 76 is, like, not the same as two. So did you have any tiered pricing? Like, um.

[00:32:22 - 00:33:15]
I think I did an early bird pricing. I did pricing for returning people that was lower. I don't remember what. I don't remember what it was, but for the general marketing of it, it just was the one price. And that's actually interesting you mentioned that, because that is one thing I'm thinking about. If I were to bring it back, would I want to do some sort of vip at the 10,000, then something else a little bit later? And actually, I didn't answer part of the question about sort of, what am I trying and considering? Another thing that I'm experimenting with. So someone reach out to me on LinkedIn, who works in the entertainment industry, and she does talent bookings. And so she was like, have you ever thought about bringing in a celebrity for an appearance at your retreat, increasing the price for a meet and greet type situation with that celebrity? So that's something I'm also thinking a little bit about.

[00:33:15 - 00:33:16]
Okay.

[00:33:16 - 00:33:19]
Like, it's. Well, with the. Oh, this is breaking news. This is so cool.

[00:33:19 - 00:33:24]
So, like, who. Who would you think would be a draw for people?

[00:33:24 - 00:33:58]
Oh, so I think so, again, my audience is, like, black and brown women entrepreneurs. Right? And so dream is like, Issa Rae. Why can't I, the girl from the young Marseille Martin, I think, from black ish, who's, like, creative, her own lane in Hollywood, just women in Hollywood that have sustained and been thriving. Tisha Campbell, perhaps. And then so she was explaining to me about, like, the A, B, C list celebrities and, like, the different price points. And so she was saying that to get, like, an A list celebrity, it's like, 25,000.

[00:34:00 - 00:34:01]
I thought it would be more than that.

[00:34:01 - 00:35:34]
I think, too, she was like, it could be, like, 25,000, which includes, like, their people that they need to bring. So anyway, like, it didn't. It didn't seem like, out of the question when she mentioned, I was like, okay, maybe I could figure that out. But I mean, that on top of having an event planner, having a media, you know, photographer and strategist, like, we're looking at, you know, 75, $80,000 just out the gate. Right. And that's not including the cost of everything. So I don't know how it'll end up shaking out. But I will say that that was sort of a line of thinking around the tiered pricing. Like, maybe I could. And then they could advertise it to their audience. We'd have, like, an application or vetting system. So just, like, everybody and their mother's not trying to come, that doesn't fit our vibe. That was that, like, being protective? I'm very protective of, like, the vibe of the place, less so, the brand. Yes, but, like, I. You have to, like, fit with the vibe, right? Like, very laid back, very kind, giving fun, you know, so ambitious. Like, all of that is very, very important to, like, the spaces that we have. So, you know, we're considering it. I don't know what'll happen. I don't even have the brainpower to think about it right now. But she was like, you know, now is a good time to start thinking about 2025, but I don't have the brain to think about it right now. So we'll, you know, I'll assess things later in the year and see sort of how my audience is built, how my email list is built between now and December. But I don't want to. I don't want to have a situation again where I'm struggling to fill seats. My body can't take that stress again.

[00:35:34 - 00:35:36]
No, it's a lot.

[00:35:36 - 00:35:39]
Big investment that you're making up front, right?

[00:35:39 - 00:39:35]
Yeah, yeah, totally. These are some things that I'm thinking of, and I think. Kamilah, I sent you one of the episodes. I think it was like, on Jay Klaus's podcast, he did an interview with the guy who started, like, social media world, which is this, like, mega, mega, like, thousands of people. It was really insightful in a couple places. And then I actually just listened to a podcast episode from Ellen Yin's Cubicle to CEO this week because she actually just sold out a ten person retreat. It was $10,000 a person, but she struggled at the beginning. So one of the things I'm thinking of just in general, this was an experience out of my conference is I would say, like, 80% of the room was entrepreneurs running businesses who are making, like, maybe they're making six figures, but, like, just barely. They've been running their business, like, maybe two, three, four years, and they're looking for, like, their next level. And then there's a different group who are, like, close, if not, like, touching seven figures. And they have teams and they have. And I realized that, like, both groups of people, well, I think, got a lot of value from community and connecting with one another in some ways. Like, they just have very different questions about their businesses. And I actually saw on the create and cultivate community that they were hosting a retreat for seven figure CEO's and women. And one of the things that stood out to me about that is like, wow, there is a space for that. There's not a ton of people who teach at all in general, across, like, every single industry teaching for that, like, higher level. There's a ton of people teaching you how to get started and, like, how to move to your first six figure, but there's not a ton of people that teach you about the top. So that's one thing that was interesting. The other thing I thought was interesting was when I was like, oh, they kept marketing as, like, intimate retreat, and then it was like, 50 people, and I was like, interesting because I really do think that making, like, 15, 2035, like, anything in that space, is just hard to make profitable with those numbers. Now. It's a double edged sword, right? Because every single human that came to San Clemente loved the size of make it happen. Like, they want it to be small and intimate. So that was another interesting thing that I'm just, like, thinking about. So the number, the price point, the content. Oh, and then for Ellen. So to just save you all the 30 minutes I spent listening to the whole thing, one of the things she was saying, similar to you, what you just said, Kamilah, is that there were all these people that like, yeah, sign me up for the waitlist. Like, I want to do this again. Sign me up, sign me up. And then, like, when she put the link to buy, they didn't come. And she was like, I get it. Scheduling and stuff. But, like, it was just hard to get people to commit. So what she wishes she would have done, and she was like, love them or hate them was like Tesla's model, which is, if you want to join the waitlist, you need to put down a $100 deposit. And if you join, you get credited that money, but if you don't, you lose your hundred dollars. And I think for people that are making an investment, especially at, like, the $7,600, then you're getting people joining the waitlist who, like, financially, are considering it thoughtfully. Now, you might get a smaller waitlist, of course, but I think that when you come to actually, you know, offer the sale that would, like, really, I think, have the right people there.

[00:39:35 - 00:39:35]
That's.

[00:39:35 - 00:39:45]
I'm thinking of hosting a writing retreat for my fundraisers in September. And I was like, I'm so glad I listened to this episode before I do that, because this is new to me.

[00:39:45 - 00:39:50]
Your writing retreat, you're going to be, like, hosting all the things you didn't check.

[00:39:50 - 00:40:29]
You didn't check slack over the weekend, I guess because I was going back and forth with Brooke. Yeah. I just. There's not a lot of people that are good at gathering, and I am not actually a person who says I'm good at anything very often. And one of the things I think I have a gift for is gathering. And so, like, I think I need to just, like, embrace and lean into it. That being said, I'm not gonna kill myself and not make it not. Not profitable. So I'm just trying to be really smart about everything I do moving forward. But, yeah, it would be. It would be yet another thing. But for, like, ten people.

[00:40:31 - 00:42:52]
Yeah. That's interesting. That's that zone of genius stuff right there. And I think it's an interesting point you made about the tears of people need. And so, like, I've, like, Rachel Rogers has done a lot of that where first was like, just everybody in this one thing, right? And then she sort of parceled it off with the different levels, like where you, where you're at because you have different questions. I think that's really brilliant. And that's one thing I noticed about Arlen's conference was, and I was, I was having a conversation with my mom afterwards and she was like, how was it? And I was like, what I think I'm realizing is, like, I am in the low six figures of revenue, not profit, of revenue. And the question again, what the things I need now to get to that next thing, like the scale conversation. Like, I can set up an automation fine. Like, I can optimize some systems, great. But like, I need, I need some scaling conversations, right? I need to know how I can get in front of bigger audiences. You know, so that's, that's a whole different set of things that, yeah, that you're absolutely right that I'm not, I'm not hitting seven figures right now, but, you know, I'm sort of past the basics. And so finding. And also, like, you're going to have to invest in that, too, because, like, you can have, I can have access to Arlen directly if I pay her for her $10,000, $15,000 program, which I can't do right now because, again, revenue does not equal profit, you know, and so, you know, that's, that's just, that's just the, the other thing that I'm trying to figure out. And, like, so with my retreat, like, we're not learning a whole lot. Like, it's not, it's not about programming. Our retreat is about experiencing, you know, retreat is about, like, we have one, again, a coach who comes in and does some visioning work with us, does some, like, healing work with us. And the rest of times, like, you do what you need to do, right? And, like, we do fun. We do fun stuff. So, yeah, yeah, it's, it's an interesting, it's, I mean, it's really fun to see sort of the different models, right. There really is a place for all of it and audience for all of it. And we just sort of have to figure out, like, Jess, I would assume you have a massive email list. So, like, you know what your people need, right? And you, in theory, know how to reach them. So that's the part that I'm still working on. And again, because my price point's so high, like, the only way that I'm going to get there is if I'm. I can't be selling to the same people. Like, I need to. I need to get in front of new audiences. So that's one of the goals of this year as well. So, I mean, we're running out of time.

[00:42:52 - 00:43:04]
We have, like, two minutes left. But I think that's a whole other interesting conversation around reaching new audiences, because I think that your existing audience might be, like, the people who've come in.

[00:43:04 - 00:43:07]
The past might be your best ambassador.

[00:43:07 - 00:43:17]
Ambassadors. Why can we not say that word? Which I think is so interesting. I also think the topic, because I'm. My fractional fundraisers are like, we want.

[00:43:17 - 00:43:17]
To do a retreat.

[00:43:18 - 00:43:42]
So now I'm like, okay. And I think I would do something similar to what you're doing, Kamilah, which is, like, not have it programmed as, like, learning, but have it as, like, unwind, recover, that kind of thing. So, yeah, I. It's an interesting space, and I want to be respectful of our time today and not go too much overtime, because I feel like we could keep talking forever.

[00:43:43 - 00:44:06]
Well, before we go, let Kamilah tell the. Tell everyone about the catalyst community, because it's special and unique and specific. And I think if we have any listeners who it is for, like, what are you all waiting for? Like, go join Camilla group now. So tell us what it's called, where it is, where to find it. You can get there.

[00:44:06 - 00:45:43]
Yeah. Thank you. So it's called the catalyst. Nonprofit consultant, mastermind, community, the mouthful. Maybe I'll, I don't know, rebrand it at some point, but it's basically a global community of women of color and black women who are transitioning out of their nonprofit nine to five roles into independent consulting in years zero to five. So we're. We're reaching that very early stage where you're coming out of it deer in the headlights, not knowing what to do. And, you know, part of our catalyst vibe is basically pouring into the full human. So it's not just going to be about learning. There's going to be a lot of feeling. There's going to be a lot of opening up as who you are. Like I mentioned, we have a whole conversation around perimenopause. Like, it's just showing up who you are and just making sure that you don't feel like you have to kind of hide any aspect of yourself and so I don't know, honestly, any other space that exists like this. I think there are other consultant communities for, you know, women of color, but the programming and sort of the multifaceted ways that we approach it, it's a, it's, it's a very holistic, high touch, nurturing space that's really valuable for those people who are serious about exploring independent consulting. And I would say most of our members are coming from the director to senior director. Levels of their organizations runs the gamut. So every, every specialization area you can think of, like, we have some HR, we have strategic planning people, we have former USAID international development people. We're in three countries, four countries, actually. And it's just a really special place. And I think, you know, people who come stay for a while, which is really good. I'm gonna have all that data very soon, but, yeah, it's a really special place. I'm really proud of it.

[00:45:44 - 00:45:51]
Awesome. And then unless it's sold out in July. You're hosting a retreat in July?

[00:45:51 - 00:46:38]
Yes, we're doing the domestic, not the fill your cup retreat, but it's, we're calling it the catalyst field trip and CEO day. I like to have fun, and I don't know that we have fun enough as grown ups. So day one is really us coming together and exploring a new place together. We do some fun stuff together and have a nice dinner and happy hour. And day two is we're focusing on our business. So, you know, my expectation is organic meetings will develop. You know, people will say, hey, you know, similar to this, just like, let's, let's find a corner in a space that we're in and just sort of hash out an issue that I'm having and a problem that I'm having and just sort of, you know, work it out together and plan for what you want for the rest of the year. So that's in July. We have four spots left for that. July. Oh, gosh, I don't even have dates. I think it's either 10th. I think it's the 10th through the 12th. And it's in Washington, DC.

[00:46:38 - 00:47:38]
Yeah, it's going to be amazing. And, and, like, if anyone's listening and you just, like, haven't quite put yourself in those rooms. I've been kind of mulling over future blog posts, LinkedIn posts, emails around proxy proximity, and I feel like people talk about networking a lot, but they do not talk about proximity. And I'm actually, like, kind of obsessed with this idea of proximity these days because who is around you and who intimately knows your work, your vibe, your personality is going to make or break. I think your referral business relationship specifically, which I know Cindy, is, like, adamantly passionate about, and you can't get close to someone, you don't have proximity. And so Kamilah is curating, like, the most special, vibrant, fun space for you. Just all you have to do is show up.

[00:47:38 - 00:48:15]
So, yeah, thank you. Thank you for that. Yeah, definitely. And my goal is for us never to have to hustle for work again. I say that all the time, hopingly, but I'm like, so good. All of us have been putting in 20 plus years into this game, right, of leading organizations, being super successful, and then deciding that we've had enough of the traditional system and let's just build an ecosystem together, right? And so, you know, proximity is the name of the game. That is the thing that has elevated me in my business. Jess, I think I met you through Rachel's community and, like, the virtual proximity. And now here we are, sisters, you know?

[00:48:15 - 00:48:19]
So, in fact, I'm going to text you an idea right after this. Yay.

[00:48:20 - 00:48:22]
Thank you, Camilla.

[00:48:22 - 00:48:22]
You're the best.

[00:48:23 - 00:48:26]
Thank you, ladies. Good to chat again. Good to see you again.

[00:48:26 - 00:48:48]
Yeah, we'll hopefully see you in person again soon, Jess, for making it happen to bring us, bringing us all in person. But, yeah, I'm so excited to keep watching. I feel like we're going to have to have you on as, like, a regular segment to just talk about, like, all these things that are going on in our businesses. So stay tuned for more.

[00:48:48 - 00:48:52]
Thank you. All right, take care. Bye.

[00:48:54 - 00:49:05]
Thank you again for listening to the Confessions podcast for nonprofit coaches and consultants. If you enjoyed today's episode, which I sure hope you did, you can show your support in one of three ways.

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