Unlocking Fun and Flow with Maryanne Dersch

"Energy speaks louder than words. And so if it's not fun, if it's not easy, if there's no flow to it, you're not going to do it. It's not going to be successful"  Maryanne Dersch

Unlocking Fun and Flow with Maryanne Dersch

Bored of boring? This conversation on the Confessions podcast brings a spark of joy.

Maryanne Dersh of Courageous Communication infuses playfulness into the often too-serious nonprofit sector. She shares how she’s been able to move beyond heaviness and limitation into ease and flow — in a way that’s sustainable as a business owner.

We discuss the root causes of nonprofit drudgery and how to transform that energetically. Maryanne  explains why it’s essential we give ourselves permission to have fun and prioritize enjoyment. She offers insights on self-care, managing difficult emotions skillfully, and building true confidence.

Key Highlights:

• Learn how to bring levity and lightness to your nonprofit work joyfully

• Discover sustainable strategies to nurture yourself on hard days

• Gain tools to move through intense emotions while maintaining passion

• Challenge imposter syndrome and create opportunities aligned with your unique talents

00:00:00 Introducing Maryanne Dersch from Courageous Communication

Jess and Cindy introduce Maryanne Dersch from Courageous Communication, discussing dreams, personality types, and infusing fun into business.

00:01:53 Infusing Fun into Business

Maryanne emphasizes the importance of infusing fun and energy into business to make it successful and sustainable, contrasting the belief that things must be hard.

00:03:27 Challenging the Nonprofit Industrial Complex

The conversation delves into challenging the notion that work in the nonprofit sector must be hard and self-sacrificing, highlighting the importance of lightness and fun in good work.

00:04:42 Finding Joy in Work

Maryanne shares a client's experience of finding joy in fundraising work and the perception that having fun in work is somehow cheating, emphasizing the value of fun in achieving desired outcomes.

00:07:36 Embracing Fun in Challenging Work Environments

Sarah Hale's approach to infusing fun in tough foster care advocacy work influences her team positively, contrasting with overwhelmed female executives in the nonprofit sector.

00:10:04 The Power of Inside-Out Transformation

Discussing the importance of internal mindset shifts over external conditions, focusing on sovereignty, authenticity, and energy impact on outcomes in leadership and fundraising efforts.

00:15:11 Uplevel Your Influence Program Details

Details about the transformative 'Uplevel Your Influence' program, its evolution, pricing updates, and the value it provides to participants in mastering influence skills for marketing and fundraising success.

00:16:42 Quarterly Program Launch Strategy

Exploring the quarterly launch strategy for the program, pricing adjustments, and the goal of creating stable monthly recurring revenue for long-term sustainability.

00:18:31 Wealth Dynamics and Balancing Work Styles

Discussion on the Wealth Dynamics personality test, emphasizing the 'Star' profile, balance, flow, and honoring diverse work styles for effective collaboration.

00:21:08 Managing Energy and Hard Days as a Business Owner

Discussion on managing personal energy and hard days as a business owner, emphasizing the importance of seeking support and embracing the balance of joy and struggle.

00:25:28 Embracing and Honoring Hard Days

Encouragement to honor difficult days, normalize emotions like anger, and use tools like the 'damn it doll' or screaming into a pillow for emotional release and rejuvenation.

00:26:11 Tools for Coping with Disappointment

Exploring strategies for coping with disappointment, including scheduling wind-down days, allowing oneself to feel emotions fully, and planning ahead for self-care after intense events.

00:29:58 The Importance of Expressing Emotions

Encouraging the expression of emotions through music and acknowledging the need for outlets like a rage Spotify playlist for moms.

00:31:39 Navigating Tough Times and Finding Neutrality

Discussing the importance of processing emotions, seeking help from therapists and coaches, and finding neutrality to gain perspective in challenging situations.

00:35:13 Courageously Sharing Vulnerabilities

Reflecting on personal struggles, imposter syndrome, and the impact of toxic diet culture on self-perception, with a call to step out of comfort zones.

00:37:17 Overcoming Imposter Syndrome

Acknowledging imposter syndrome, anxiety leading up to events, and the importance of fun and support in facing discomfort to grow personally and professionally.

00:39:09 Building Intentional Relationships in Business

Emphasizing the significance of choosing the right people to work with, setting boundaries, and embracing the energy of choice in building a successful business.

00:39:17 Promoting Business Through Showcases and Podcasts

The host shares about promoting her business through showcases, podcasts, and LinkedIn, inviting listeners to explore her work and enroll in the process.

00:40:08 Planning for Future Episodes

The host expresses interest in hosting the next episode with cocktails, setting a casual and engaging tone for future conversations.

00:40:17 Ways to Support the Podcast

Listeners are encouraged to support the podcast by sharing episodes, leaving reviews on Apple Podcasts, and subscribing for future content.

Find Us Online:  https://www.confessionswithjessandcindy.com

Connect with Maryanne: 

Courageous Communication (Website): https://www.courageouscommunication.com/ 

The Influential Nonprofit (Podcast): https://www.courageouscommunication.com/podcast 

Maryanne Dersch (Linkedin): https://www.linkedin.com/in/maryannedersch-courageouscommunication/ 

Connect with Cindy:

Cindy Wagman Coaching https://cindywagman.com

Fractional Fundraising Network https://www.fractionalfundraising.co/

LinkedIn:  https://ca.linkedin.com/in/cindywagman

Connect with Jess: 

Out In the Boons: https://www.outintheboons.me

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jess-campbell-outintheboons/ 

Transcript:

[00:00:00 - 00:00:06]
All right, party people, we've actually been talking off camera, and we finally decided to hit record. So. Hi, Cindy.

[00:00:07 - 00:00:08]
Hi, Jess.

[00:00:09 - 00:00:25]
We were having the most fabulous conversation with our guests today, the one, the only, Marianne Dersh from courageous communication. I just was joking how I couldn't even say my own business name if prompted. And there I go, messing it up. Courageous communication.

[00:00:25 - 00:00:26]
That's right.

[00:00:26 - 00:00:47]
Um, and we were just having the most interesting conversation about dreams and personality types and ourselves and anxiety dreams and the whole bit. And so we thought maybe we should press play and, like, invite you all into the conversation. So, Marianne, tell the fine folks who you are and how you get paid.

[00:00:49 - 00:01:08]
Who I am. I'm Marianne. I am in St. Louis, Missouri. As you said, my company is courageous communication, and I walk. I work with nonprofit leaders to master the art of influence so they can ask for and receive all they want, need, and deserve, and do it in a way that's joyful, easy, and fun.

[00:01:08 - 00:01:10]
Oh, my gosh. I love that. I love that.

[00:01:10 - 00:01:12]
Who doesn't want to have fun?

[00:01:13 - 00:01:53]
You know what, actually, can we start there? Can we start there? Because I actually think people don't think about having fun in their business nearly enough. Nearly enough. They are so damn serious in everything they market. And I actually was just thinking today of, like, a banner I'm going to put on my LinkedIn that was, like, bored of boring emails, because I was reading a bunch of boring emails and I was thinking, like, oh, that's a little cheeky. That's a little fun. But I don't think most nonprofit consultants are thinking that way. They're thinking very literally. So can we start there? Like, how do you infuse fun into your business?

[00:01:53 - 00:02:05]
Okay, so my. One of the principal tenants of me and my work is that energy speaks louder than words. And I love words.

[00:02:06 - 00:02:06]
Right?

[00:02:06 - 00:03:26]
My kind. I love words. I love words. I. And I know I wrote a book about, you know, my book is courageous communication. It's called how codependence is making your nonprofit brand boring and what to do about it. Right? I love words. I love messages. And what I know for sure is that energy speaks louder than words. And so if it's not fun, if it's not easy, if there's no flow to it, you're not going to do it. It's not going to be successful. But what we've been taught, I don't know why. Maybe it's our puritanical roots, is that things that are hard are worthwhile, and so we tend to discount or don't believe that things that are fun or easy or have flow or lightness are important, but energies, like, if, you know, like, if you're working with somebody and, you know, there's resistance, right? And so you're just creating more resistance. And so energy. So that is the whole thing is. It's the energetic by what I. There's a phrase I use a lot. It's the energy by which we create, guides, and determines the creation. And so it's that energetic. So if it's light, if it's easy, it's sustainable, and if it's not, it won't be.

[00:03:27 - 00:03:56]
I love that. And I feel like, especially in our sector, like, we inherit that nonprofit industrial complex where we think everything has to be hard and everything has to be, like, self sacrificing and all of that. And so I love that you're turning that on your head. And, in fact, it's almost like a condition of good work is actually light and fun and. Yeah, I love that.

[00:03:56 - 00:03:57]
Oh, my goodness.

[00:03:57 - 00:03:59]
So how do you.

[00:04:00 - 00:04:01]
How do you.

[00:04:01 - 00:04:13]
Because you work in the nonprofit sector. We all do. We're surrounded by all of this quote, unquote, hard work. How do you buck that trend, and.

[00:04:13 - 00:04:15]
How is it perceived?

[00:04:15 - 00:04:35]
Because sometimes I feel like people are skeptical, or they're. Because they've been conditioned to feel like you shouldn't have fun, that they almost are, like, maybe jealous or maybe resentful. Like, how do you find your people? It's cheating somehow.

[00:04:36 - 00:04:36]
Yeah.

[00:04:36 - 00:04:42]
Like, in the sea of these. Of this hardness, how do you find the people who want to have fun with you?

[00:04:42 - 00:07:34]
Right? So I'm going to tell you this first. One of the clients in my program, Kylie, she's a development director for a habitat for Humanity. And the funniest thing is, like, we worked. Really? We worked in my coaching program, we worked. And she was like, okay, when I get this admin, I'm going to. I'm going to, like, really dive into fundraising. And then she got the admin. She's like, oh, cool, now I have to raise the money. Okay, next problem. Right? So then she started to go out and. And, you know, this is what I teach people how to do. And she's like, she was having so much fun. The next thing that came up was, I feel guilty that my coworkers have to stay in the office all day, right? She was having so much fun. Like, she couldn't almost enjoy it because. Wait, is this supposed to be this easy? Is this supposed to be this fun? Like, yeah, it is. Um. And it, like, almost giving yourself permission, you know, to, to do that. So here, here's the thing, Cindy, and you have a great question because it is pretty ingrained to us. Like, the, the underlying thought is, I. I am required to suffer and for you to get better. But in my world, which is beyond the polarity of, oh, I'm suffering, you're better. We can all be better. And in fact, I am the model. I am the model. I can't say, oh, no, let me struggle and I'll let you be okay. We're all going to rise together. And in that, when we move outside of the polarity of win, lose, struggle, fun, all of that, and we move beyond the polarity, then what comes through is the possibility. And there's a concept I work with called the medicine and the cure. And so the medicine is like, people will swallow any medicine if the cure is strong enough. So it's the fun and the joy and the ease is really the medicine, even though it's like really tasty medicine, but it's the outcome. So what outcomes do you want? Because I can guarantee you whatever you're doing now sucks is hard. It doesn't work. That's why we exist. Okay? If they were doing it, they wouldn't be like, hey, Jess, Cindy, Marianne, can you help? It's because what they're doing, they're trying to push through the struggle, and that typically doesn't work. And, like, if this is what you want, do you want sustainable? A community of support? A thriving community of support? Do you know, would it be valuable for you to have long term loyal donors? This is how you do it. And this is the methodology that works in a sustainable way. And so if you, it's really more focusing on the outcome of what they want rather than the fun, because they will once they get into it. Like, I'm training this board right now and they're so funny and they're having a big event at the end of April and they're getting really excited about it and they're just having so much fun and they're. Is this okay? Absolutely. Because that's what people want.

[00:07:36 - 00:10:03]
Yes. Okay. I promise. These, like, stories lead to my question, but I have to shout out this nonprofit fundraiser that's in my Boonie community saying, sarah Hale, she works for Austin Angels. And I met up with her a few years ago, and it was that time of year where people were like, what's your word of the year? And hers was fun. And I was like, how do you bring that into your life? And she was like, oh, it's like, you know, when I'm taking notes, instead of just using a black or blue pen, I use a pink one. Or when I go get my nails done and the lady asks, do you want, like, a little decoration on your pinky? You say, yes. You know, it's like, it's. And her work, she works in the foster care advocacy space, so her work is. Is hard. It's tough, it's. It's deep. And I just love that so much that every single thing she asks herself, professionally, personally, she'll ask herself, like, how can I bring fun to this? And she was explaining how that has infused and kind of ricocheted around the people around her staff, her family, everyone. Now everyone's starting to think, like, how can I bring some fun to this? So it's like, when they have a staff meeting, you know, they do a thing or two to make that fun or, you know, whatever. And I was like, oh, my gosh, this is just so great, and everyone's so much happier for it. But then, contrastly, yesterday, I was speaking to an executive director who, like, all the female executive directors I talk to, is just buried, you know? And I actually got off the phone with her, and I texted my friend, our friend Brook, Richie Babbage. And I was just like, I only see this with women. I never have this with my. When I speak to, like, a male nonprofit executive director founder, like, I don't sell out. They don't have the struggle and the despair and the overwhelm. And so this leads me to my question around just how do you work with your clients? You mentioned boards. You mentioned a director of development. Do you have group programs? Do you do one off trainings? Like, what is it that you do for your nonprofit clients? Like, and what are the buckets? Or what are the containers that those fall into?

[00:10:04 - 00:10:11]
Here's what I do. I just wave my magic pom pom, and then everyone's better. It's really simple. No. Oh, my gosh. If you guys give me one. Give me one.

[00:10:12 - 00:10:16]
She literally has this, like, bold and green.

[00:10:16 - 00:10:17]
There's three of them.

[00:10:18 - 00:10:22]
Pom poms that she's shaking on camera. She really is just super fun.

[00:10:22 - 00:15:10]
Yeah. So, okay. Yeah. Fun, playfulness. That's. That's all. Okay. Okay. Before I answer the question of how I work with folks, I want to tap into something you said, because I think it's really important is what I have learned and what I work with people on is really the acceptance of this is an inside out game, and the E.D. that you were talking to was playing an outside in game. When things settle down, I'll feel better. When, you know, when things. No, nothing's ever settling down. Nothing's ever slowing down because it's not really moving that fast. It's the story that we tell ourselves. And you're right about that. I think this could be a more, you know, female experience than male. And I think there's probably a whole other podcast to unpack about that. And also, it's an inside out game, so it's not, oh, if this. I'm looking for external conditions to define me. I define me. I'm the sovereign one. I'm the queen. I say. I say who comes, right? I say how things go. And once I claim my sovereignty, right. And that in that sovereignty of, like, I don't let outside things define me. If somebody gives me money or not, does not define my worth. And this is something that we work on all the time, right? Because, you know, which is like, the external definite, like owning our own self, our own authenticity. And that when you are authentic, transparent, aligned, that becomes incredibly powerful in that sovereignty, right? So I had a client, Jenny, and she was just like, busy, busy, rush, rush, rush. And she would like. And I'm like, there's time enough for everything, right? There's time enough for everything. And she would even just, like, rush into the office. Like, Jenny, why don't you just walk into the office? You're still going to get to your, you know what I mean? Like, really setting. Because remember, energy is everything. Energy precedes outcomes. So if you. If you're rush, rush, rush, you create more rush, rush, and you're now everybody around you is, like, on edge. Like, no calm confidence. That's what we want to instill. And that. And that is from the inside, not from the outside. So how do I work with people? So my foundational program is, of course, it's called uplevel your influence. I started this during COVID because everything else I was working on just stopped, as we all know. And I'm like, why don't I, you know, I was working with my coach. Her name is Michelle Villalobos. And I was saying, you know, how, and you all probably have this experience, like, you want to work with somebody, and then they go to the board of the Ed, and it's like, and it dies really quickly. And my coach said, well, why don't you teach people how to get what they want? You can do that. And I'm like, okay, let's do that. So I created this course called uplevel your influence, to teach people how to get people to do what they want, which I didn't know at the time, is kind of something I do really easy, which I didn't really realize what other people could get people to do what they want. I'm like, wait, that's a thing that happens. So I developed this course, and it was like, no brainer pricing. Everybody cut. All these people that I love or wanted to work with, I said, come join me. Co creation. Let's see what happens. And they loved it, and I've probably done it 30 times since. And that's sort of my foundational program. And I take people from all over the country, other parts of the world, and we get together, and it's a very sacred, safe space to just do the inside out work. And I really look for people who are like, I know this is about me. I know there's something in me. I want to be a better leader, I want to be a better fundraiser, and I just. I'm not quite sure how to access that and that. And that's what I work with. So, basically, I became more of, like, a performance coach, but that felt so good. And it works, right? Like, I was seeing movement. And so, from that place, if I can teach you to master the art of influence and get people to do what you want them to do, imagine how much easier marketing is. Fundraising is board relationships. This is foundational skill that, once you learn, it unlocks everything else. So then people like, so from there, there's two things that we can do. One is I work with boards or teams inside organizations. Like, hey, Marian, this is great. Can you come train my board in this? Or. And then the other thing is, I have a back end program where. Because this is mastery, right? This is practice, and then people stay for a year. I actually have a few people in that program. Most of them have been there for more than two years with me, just because we're always learning, we're always growing. You know, when. When you master something, you never really master it, right? You're always just reaching the next level and. And the next level of mastery. So they're really learning to integrate these skills very deeply in their life every day.

[00:15:11 - 00:15:19]
Okay, I have a lot of questions, but I'm going to start with the first one, which is, you mentioned for upload your influence up level.

[00:15:19 - 00:15:19]
Sorry.

[00:15:20 - 00:15:32]
Up level your own mind writing. Up level your influence that you started it as a. At a very affordable price. Is it still super affordable? Or, like, how has your pricing changed?

[00:15:32 - 00:16:41]
Okay, well, I think the word affordable is a little misleading, so maybe let's not work that. I just had what I call no brainer pricing, which was, like, $300, and then it was 600, and then it was 900, but now it's 1997. So I really, like, I could offer it for a lot less and enroll a lot more people, but that's not what this is about. This is an incredibly. I want to say the intense is not the right word, but I want to say an incredibly embodied experience and transformative, and it's just for the right person, and it gives massive value. So, as I did a work. I did a business workshop a couple years ago, and they're like, you are undervaluing. And so I went from, like, 1297 to 1997, and I'm like, it's 1997. People like, okay. Like, no one flinched, right? Like, that's when I want to be, you know, careful about, like, what's affordable. You know, people make time. They create. You know, there's enough time. There's enough money. I truly believe. And so you make time for what's important, and you find the money if it's important. You know?

[00:16:42 - 00:16:47]
I love that. I mean, I call my $9,000 program a no brainer. So I get it.

[00:16:47 - 00:17:43]
Like, yeah, it's a no brainer. It's still a no brainer. Yeah. But I did, like, you know, hey, $300, let's show. Okay. And I just got a bunch of people together, and. And it was. And it was rough and crazy, and they're like, this is amazing. And then, you know, I. And now it's like, it's much more sophisticated, you know, like, I have slides and a workbook, you know? Of course, every time you do it, I have six people enrolled for maybe I'd love to routinely be filling, like, ten. That it's ten a quarter. That would be great. And then one or two or three of those will join my back end program. And I just want to say something about the back end program, which I think is really important, which is that is what we call monthly recurring revenue. So, you know. Yeah, yeah, right. And that allows stability instead of the gig work, you know? So how can I create that monthly recurring revenue? I'm working on that. That is, you know, I know I can get better at that, but that is the goal.

[00:17:43 - 00:17:47]
I love that. So it sounds like you launch every quarter for the.

[00:17:47 - 00:18:20]
Yeah, pretty much, except, yeah. Yeah. So February, May. I'm doing July and September because I can't find anybody to do anything in October or November? No. Yeah, I tried three times and I'm like, obviously this is not the right time of year. I do want to do this program four times a year, but I'm just going to push it up in the year a little bit because after, like, after October, it's a sprint, and this is just not a good time to learn new things.

[00:18:25 - 00:18:29]
All right, Marianne, we're back for another round of rapid fire questions. You ready to play?

[00:18:29 - 00:18:31]
Yes. Okay, cool.

[00:18:31 - 00:18:50]
So before we even started recording, we talked about a test, personality test that you and I both love, everyone should take. It's called wealth dynamics. Can you tell us a little bit about what your primary, I don't know, quadrant is, and maybe, like, make a case for why people should figure out what theirs is.

[00:18:50 - 00:19:32]
Wealth dynamics. And it's my primary profile. Everybody has a primary and two secondary. My primary is a star. I'm a star. Me, too. Hi. Yes. We just need Cindy. We make it up in the moment. We go very quick. And the thing about. I love wealth dynamics is about two things that I love, which is balance and flow. So it's about creating flow in your work and working in the ways that it's easy for you and also honoring the way other people work. Right. So if you're that spreadsheet person and I'm making up in the middle, I'm going to honor that spreadsheet and know that that's how you process information. And then also that you can't tie me down. Like, as a star, I get to move in the moment. And those things don't have to pull at each other. They can complement each other.

[00:19:32 - 00:19:41]
I love it. You mentioned that you're from St. Louis. If Cindy and I were in town and you were taking us for cocktails or something, where would we go?

[00:19:43 - 00:20:15]
Well, I would take you to all the dive bars that I frequent and for karaoke at Stan's, you know. Oh, my gosh, I love karaoke. Right? So. And I like places that are all a little bit broken, you know, just like me, you know what I mean? And also, the thing about St. Louis is all our museums are free, so the zoo is free, the art museum, the history museum, the science center, it's part of our city charter. So I definitely take you to Forest park so you can go to all the free museums.

[00:20:15 - 00:20:24]
Okay. The reason why I made that face was because before you even said karaoke, my next and last question was, what's your go to karaoke song?

[00:20:24 - 00:20:29]
Yeah. So, you know, I have a list, Jess, on my phone. Of all the songs that I sing.

[00:20:29 - 00:20:30]
What'S your number one.

[00:20:30 - 00:20:53]
Okay, so I had one song. It would be all that jazz from Chicago, Catherine Zeta Jones version. For some reason. I can crush that number. That's my. And I've been doing that for years and years because that's the old song. But I. Lately, I've been singing a lot of the Dua lipa. I like the duo very much. So I've been singing a lot of that. People tend. I like new stuff, too, so. Yeah.

[00:20:53 - 00:20:57]
Oh, it's so fun. Fun. All right. Thanks for playing.

[00:20:57 - 00:21:08]
That's. That's it. Okay. You okay? I love this.

[00:21:08 - 00:21:33]
And I want to kind of shift gears, because as you were talking, one of the things that I had a question about is just managing your own energy and hard days, right? Because I think, what, from the outside, it's so easy for people to look at someone and think, oh, they're so positive, they're so fun. Like, it's always sunny.

[00:21:33 - 00:21:33]
Right.

[00:21:33 - 00:22:06]
And I know that that's obviously not true, because we all have ups and downs. And so tell me a little bit about, as a business owner who, you know, sometimes you have an enrollment and it doesn't meet your expectations or, you know, all the things. How do you manage your own energy when days aren't feeling, as I say, fun and quotes? Because I know it's a little bit more sophisticated than that, but, yeah. How do you continue to show up for yourself in the way that you.

[00:22:06 - 00:25:27]
Teach others to show up? Wow. Okay. I like this talk. I'm just a person who. I'll sit next to you in the bar, and then we will have the most intimate, personal conversation with my Uber driver, stranger, sitting next to me watching a sports game. Okay? So that's where I like to go. Um, so here's the thing is, first of all, I want to say, and most importantly, we don't do it alone. Right? I mentioned that I completed this program in January. I was with Michelle, that these stars on my neck, I have this star necklace on for being in that program. I have another coach, doctor Aaron. He's amazing. I literally go. He also does this energy work stuff. It's called entrainment. I don't want to get into it, but it's very cool. Anyway, so I put people in my life to guide me so that when there's those hard days, I have a resource to call in first and foremost. And that's the role I provide to people. And I look at it like a waterfall. Like, Aaron fills me so I can fill others. And the second thing is just honoring. I mentioned polarity, right? Like, and so one of the, one of the ways that we really can, I really can move and see the world in a way that serves us much more effectively is to move beyond the polarity, what I call the influential third. So it's not, oh, it's, I'm either struggling or I'm joyful. Right? There's either peace or conflict. Everything is a balance. And by allowing struggle. Now hold on. Okay, this. Hold on. By allowing struggle or allowing pain, I'm actually creating joy. What happens is we. So we want to subvert the pain, and we want. But pain, when I. When I allow myself to feel the pain, that means I'm creating joy. And I know that seems weird. It might seem weird. I don't know. And so in the joy, I know that I'm feeling joy because of the pain, right? There's abundance and scarcity, light and dark, and we need. We need all of it. So it's not like, oh, I'm never having a bad day. That's not it at all. It's like, I honor the bad day as part of the process. Because if you don't, like, like, remember that show Heroes when, like, she could run on a broken, like, it's telling you some, oh, something's wrong. Something needs your attention. Oh, okay. What needs retooling? What needs support? I didn't have the bad day. How can I know that? And, you know, I work with people on honoring sometimes, and you may have seen this, the folks we work with, maybe a little conflict adverse. Right. And they don't like, you know, and so, and I talk about when you put peace on a pedestal, what you're doing is eventually that pedestal is going to crash and you're creating more conflict. So if you're just only acknowledging fun or joy, you know, like, you know, and you're not, it's like, oh, it has to be unicorns and rainbows because that's not what I'm saying at all. It's like eventually that's going to come crashing down and a whole bunch. Right? So it's like when you, when it's a, it's like a teeter totter. It's a balance. I'm letting a little bit in so I can get. So when I tell people, if you create a little conflict here, you're actually creating peace, because the more you avoid that conflict, the more it's going to come crashing down. Yes.

[00:25:28 - 00:25:46]
I so resonate with that. And like, I. So sometimes I get people who, when they're feeling like they're having a bad day, they, like, try and power through things. And when I feel low energy or something like that, like, I just don't work, don't work.

[00:25:46 - 00:25:47]
Don't do it.

[00:25:47 - 00:26:02]
So I want to know from you how you honor those hard days. Like, how do you. Do you just clock out of work and do something else? Like, I would lie in bed watching tv for the day. How do you.

[00:26:02 - 00:26:03]
Does it.

[00:26:03 - 00:26:11]
Does it vary? How do you let yourself go into that space and honor those hard days?

[00:26:11 - 00:29:10]
I think that's such a great. Just to honor the hard days. You know, I think there's a couple of ways, Cindy. We can look at this, and depending on the situation. So I think there's a lot of tools you can have in your toolbox. Right. So the other day, I had a couple of meetings, and they rescheduled, and I was like, okay, I'm really disappointed. And also, now I have a free day, and I am. I called it. I called it. I even did an email about this. I called it, like, wind down Wednesday or whatever. Like, I'm just not going to do very much today. And really, because I am Polish and Catholic, and this can be really hard, like, to not be productive. You know, I have this little thing. Hold on. Let me see if I can find her. Yep. Okay. I know this is audio, but I have a thing called the damn it doll, right? So the damn it doll is, you know, like. And you just whack the damn. Damn it, damn it, damn it feeling. So one of the things that I really learned along the way was to feel like it's okay to be angry. It's okay to feel anger. So sometimes that can mean screaming into a pillow or just letting yourself have a good cry. If we allow the feelings to move through us, then they. They neutralize. Everybody had a really good crying. Like, okay, I feel so much better. I also want to normalize crying. I think you should be able to cry anytime you want, anywhere you want. Oh, you can't cry at work. Hell, yeah. You can cry whenever you want. So that's the patriarchy, right? Trying to dictate to us. So the damn. Like, things like the damn downstream media pillow. Like. And I can think about. Or maybe. Okay, today is not the day. Okay, I have to. I know I need to push through today because I have a speaking engagement or, you know, I'm an icon or whatever, and. And. Okay, so when can I budget time in my day to just power down. And really? So. So, you know, sometimes we have to schedule it. Sometimes we can take it in a moment. But I had a client the other day, and she was. Had this brutal, brutal, um. Like, I can't even imagine this process, an interview process where they had the four candidates in a room in each corner, and the staff got to go around and talk to each. It was traumatizing. What? And I was like, you are angry. What I want your assignment is to go and scream into a pillow or screw somebody. Had to tell my. Michelle had to tell me, my coach, a hundred times, Mary scream in a pillow. But my mom, like, my mom would have. Like, my mom would get angry. And I was like, oh. So I was like, oh, I can't be angry. But then I realized, no, like, it's okay to be angry. Just maybe not be angry at a child, right? But it's like, like, how can I. Like. So I. Like, I think a lot of us don't want to be angry. It's okay to get angry. And you can just, like, when you pry, like, oh, I was hoping to avoid the drama. No, you got to move through it. That's the only way. Is through. See, little tools like your damn it doll or screaming a pillow or things like that, and that can help you through the disappointment. And then you just put the crown back on and get back to it.

[00:29:11 - 00:29:58]
Love it. I just want to add, like, building in. So you mentioned icon. We were talking about icon before, which was really intense for me this year. And so I built in, like three days after of no meetings so that I could. So planning ahead, I think, is one. And this is another fun, really thing. I know Jess had the question, but my. There's a local yoga studio, studio near me that just introduced this new class where they do, like, fun dancing and stuff like that, but they also have, like, a lot of vocal exercises where you just yell and, like, release with your body, and it's the best thing ever. So I just. I love those ideas, but I want Jess to get a chance to ask her a question.

[00:29:58 - 00:30:03]
The voice is so important to allow your voice make the ugly noise.

[00:30:04 - 00:30:21]
I'll have to remember to do this. Actually, one of my clients is an organization that focuses on moms, and so for Mother's Day, we actually just made a rage Spotify playlist for moms to rage to if they want. Yeah, I'll have to send it to both of you. It's really good.

[00:30:21 - 00:30:22]
Okay.

[00:30:22 - 00:31:36]
I love what you said about honoring those days and giving us examples of how you practice that and then I know you just said, like, and then you put your crown back on and you move. But I actually think that there's probably some actual tactical steps because I do. I see a lot of people, like, wallow in those. And I'm wondering if you have any advice for how to actually step through these, you know, just days or weeks or slumps or whatever you want to call them. Because sometimes I, I think it's hard, like this whole conversation, I keep saying to myself, like, perspective is everything and you seem very aware of that. And sometimes when you're in it, it's hard to practice gratitude or it's hard to, like you said, be joyful because of the pain. And I'm just curious as to, like, anything you do to step through. Or is that just practice over many years that you've had with therapists and coaches?

[00:31:39 - 00:33:07]
You know, sometimes when you're in the struggle, it's so hard because you're like, this sucks. You know, and it's hard to see the point and the purpose of it. Here's, here's what I would say, jess, because I feel like the intention of your question is more about the situational, like, business that you have built. You know, the ups and downs are natural, but if you're the down right, then it's, maybe it's more about looking at the creation. Right. The work that you're doing, is it fulfilling? Is it sustaining? Am I working with the right people? You know what I'm saying? Like, I think this is, we're talking about like, episodic and chronic. And I think these are two different things. Right? So. And what I'm saying to you is when you are allowing yourself to feel and release and express the anger, and then you will come to what we call neutrality where. Okay, now I can see. I'll give you, for instance, I had a, I love, I already told you, I've taught you before, I have two sisters. I love my sister. I had a fight with my sister. I can tell you. I've never had a fight with my sister. We were having drinks and blah, blah, blah. And then she sent a text to my other sister and I like, oh, you know, it's Marianne. She just talked about herself the whole time. And I was like, am I supposed.

[00:33:07 - 00:33:08]
To be seeing this?

[00:33:09 - 00:35:08]
Like, what is going on? Then my sister obviously felt bad right away anyway, so I was super, super hurt because we never fight. And also, I'm younger. I'm a younger later in life child. They were mother figure. My sisters are mother figures to me. And I cried, and I was so upset. And I wound up booking a time with Doctor Aaron, one of my coaches. And I. And because. And maybe that's part of it is connecting with somebody else to help you find that neutrality. But I meant. So he said, so sometimes do you carry the conversation and that's helpful? Yes. Okay. Right. And he's. But what I realized after the suffering, after the pain was in that moment, I needed my sister to be my mom. Right. I. Because my family went through something very, very traumatic with my middle son, like, almost dying. Police, FBI, were still in lawsuits kind of thing. Like, incredibly traumatic. And I just wanted my sister to take care of me, and my sister wanted a sister, but I had to really go through a lot of grieving and talking with somebody. Oh, then I come to new. Now I can see that 10,000 foot view. Now I get how we both participated in this. Now I can. Okay. Learning, if we're willing to see it, everything's information. We're willing to see it. And I'm not even sure if I answered this question. However, what I do want to say is, if it's a bad day, bad day, bad day, bad day. That, to me, is not. That's a bigger question of, am I attracting the right people to me? Am I working with the right people? Do I feel like I have to compromise my values in order to get work? Do I. Do I feel resentment for the people I'm working with? Do I feel overworked or underpaid? All those things can cause that resentment, and that will put you in the Rutger.

[00:35:10 - 00:35:13]
Thank you. Thank you for sharing all that.

[00:35:13 - 00:35:16]
You're welcome. Could that be my confession?

[00:35:16 - 00:35:37]
I was just going to say, so, as we wrap up our conversation, you know, we got to ask, and as someone who seems very comfortable sharing it all, which we really appreciate, I know that takes a lot of courage. What is your confession for us here on the podcast?

[00:35:37 - 00:35:43]
So, is my confession something that nobody knows or just something I don't talk about very often?

[00:35:43 - 00:35:55]
It can be anything. It just anything related to your business. Yeah. We sometimes say, like, what's something you maybe aren't the first. It's not the first thing you share out. Or maybe people would be surprised to learn.

[00:35:56 - 00:37:00]
I think people would be surprised to learn. I love a stage so much, and then I'm often very critical of how I present on a stage. And here's the other thing. And I. Maybe you two can hold me accountable for this. Like, I like. Like myself in photographs being videoed. And I'm like, oh, and this because I grew up in seventies toxic diet culture, you know, and, like, all that's deeply imprinted on me. And I sometimes I feel like, and also, I have not been to icon, and I have not been icon because I think I'm really intimidated. And I, you know, and like, and I'm like, why wouldn't I be there? Why wouldn't I do that? And I'm like, wait, what? I'm like, will I feel overwhelmed. I feel like I'm not good at what. I think the imposter syndrome really rages. I used to, I done the National Speakers association conference. I think it's been twice. And I was like, is everyone else's imposter syndrome just raging right now because I am flipping out? So I, so maybe you guys can hold me accountable to stepping into that discomfort next year. I was going to say if there's.

[00:37:00 - 00:37:06]
If there's a conference on this planet that could use some fun, it's icon. So they're desperate for you.

[00:37:07 - 00:37:09]
Thank God for people like Cindy to.

[00:37:09 - 00:37:16]
Bring, like, some flavor to that place because they would love, everyone would love your energy.

[00:37:16 - 00:37:17]
Yeah.

[00:37:17 - 00:37:50]
Also, like, I see and hear you. I was, before we hit record, I was telling you both about my anxiety dreams leading up to icon that started months before, by the way, and just really intensified, like a few days before and during. So I understand. And I do think, like you asked, if everyone else there is experiencing this imposter syndrome. Like, the answer is yes, most of us are. So if you take anything back from that, like, you are definitely not.

[00:37:50 - 00:37:51]
Thank you.

[00:37:51 - 00:37:53]
And we need to have more fun.

[00:37:53 - 00:39:09]
That's good. And thank you for witnessing that. And also encouraging, like, my presence would be, you know, welcomed. Like, you know, like, hey, they could use a shot of fun. Yeah. Yeah. And also, I really do want to say for those of us who are building businesses, who are building followings in community, is to really just be conscious of who I'm inviting into my kingdom, my queendom. Right. You are the sovereign one, and you can choose. And the reason I don't have a lot of bad days is because I pick amazing people to work with and, you know, does the business grow a little slower? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. But I'm very intentional about who I work with. And you can be too, you know, and you don't have to chase the money. And I think that's where the resentment and the bad days come from is that feeling like, oh, I have to, you know, I need to. I have to. I must do this. Instead of what I call the energy of choice, I get to. I'm choosing to. I get to, right? I get to work with folks. I get to do this podcast, right? That's the energy of choice. And that. That's what people are attracted to.

[00:39:09 - 00:39:17]
So good. So good. Marianne, how can people find you, connect with you, join your world of fun.

[00:39:17 - 00:40:03]
Okay. Yay. So courageouscommunication.com. And I'm doing something this year, Jess and Cindy, that I'm very committed to, which is the pipeline of enrolling people in the process. And I have a podcast, the influential nonprofit as well, but doing one free showcase every month. And so that's a great way for people to come in, just pop in and see if they like what I'm about or just to learn how my business runs and how I enroll people in the process. They can go to my website, and then I'm on LinkedIn a lot, as you two are as well. And, I mean, there's only one other mariandersh on the planet, so I'm easy to find.

[00:40:05 - 00:40:08]
Love it. Thank you.

[00:40:08 - 00:40:15]
Thank you. I want to do this next time with cocktails. Sold.

[00:40:17 - 00:40:28]
Thank you again for listening to the Confessions podcast for nonprofit coaches and consultants. If you enjoyed today's episode, which I sure hope you did, you can show your support in one of three ways.

[00:40:28 - 00:40:36]
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[00:40:41 - 00:40:47]
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[00:40:47 - 00:40:54]
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[00:40:54 - 00:41:01]
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[00:41:02 - 00:41:02]
See you next time.