Owning Ambition with Jenny Mitchell

"Ambition means that you are unapologetically striving towards goals that have meaning and purpose for you, and you are not afraid to put your reputation, your values, and your personal street cred behind it." - Jenny Mitchell

Owning Ambition with Jenny Mitchell

Should nonprofit consultants write a book to grow their business? Many purpose-driven entrepreneurs ponder this strategic question as they aim to establish their authority and reach new audiences.

Jenny Mitchell generously shares her first-hand experience collaborating with 11 women leaders to produce the book “Embracing Ambition” in just 12 months. She breaks down the full process from initial conception to securing a publisher and coordinating author retreats for writing and editing. Jenny is remarkably transparent about the financial model and initial investment required. Writing and publishing the book cost over $30,000 when factoring in expenses like editorial services, author gifts and hotel accommodations. However, Jenny maintains it was worth the meaningful conversations sparked about authentic women’s leadership journeys.

With over 25 years of experience in the sector, Jenny Mitchell is perfectly positioned to provide this rare glimpse behind the curtain.

Key Highlights:

• Insider knowledge of the book publishing process specifically for the nonprofit consulting industry

• How to leverage strategic collaborations with co-authors to share more diverse and empowering stories

• The importance of vulnerability and sincerity in advocating for women leaders

• Clarity on whether writing a book is the right move for your particular business goals

• Tips for maximizing the impact of your book through targeted PR, speaking engagements and podcast interviews

00:00:00 Introduction to Nonprofit Coaching and Consulting Business

Cindy and Jess introduce the Confessions podcast focused on helping nonprofit coaches and consultants scale their businesses past six figures.

00:02:41 Financial Management and Growth Strategies for Nonprofits

Carleen from FXO Consulting discusses the importance of a dream team and compliance in financial management for nonprofit organizations.

00:06:52 Making Informed Financial Decisions

Carleen emphasizes the importance of understanding financials to make informed decisions for business growth and success.

00:08:58 Defining Growth in Nonprofit Businesses

The conversation explores different aspects of growth, including revenue, profitability, and business model adjustments for individual business goals.

00:09:58 The Cost of Hiring and Buying Back Time

Discussion on the cost and value of hiring employees who can bring new skills to the table, buying back time, and the growth it brings.

00:12:03 Modeling, Forecasting, and Cash Flow Management

The importance of understanding client personality types, making assumptions in forecasting, tracking cash flow, and being responsive to changes to maintain financial stability and confidence.

00:15:12 Cash Flow Challenges for Consultants

Exploration of cash flow challenges for consultants, separating profit from paying oneself, and managing cash flow effectively as a sole proprietor.

00:16:15 Treating the Business as Its Own Entity

Recommendation to treat the business as a separate entity, understanding profitability vs. cash flow, and simplifying cash flow management for better financial control.

00:19:27 Rapid Fire: Most Extravagant Business Expense

Carleen shares the most extravagant business expense of hiring a business coach to transition from a business owner to a CEO.

00:20:33 Embracing Creativity and Spontaneity

The guest shares how engaging in creative activities like paint night helps them relax and let go of structure and organization in life.

00:21:11 Managing Cash Flow and Forecasting

Discussion on adjusting payment terms to improve cash flow, importance of forecasting, and taking responsibility for financial decisions in business operations.

00:22:09 Shifting to a CEO Mindset

Encouragement for nonprofit consultants to transition from a service provider mindset to a CEO mindset, emphasizing the need to prioritize business sustainability and internal operations.

00:24:12 Outsourcing Information Framing for Strategic Decisions

Advice on outsourcing financial expertise to understand and make strategic decisions effectively in business operations.

00:25:18 Mindset Shift in Nonprofit Sector

Addressing mindset challenges in the nonprofit sector regarding profitability, sustainability, and aligning financial management with the organization's mission and long-term goals.

00:29:53 Recommendations for Financial Vehicles

Discussion on high yield savings accounts, GICs, and investment managers for client recommendations.

00:32:46 Steps for Building Financial Buffer

Advice on setting aside funds consistently, integrating into forecasts, and adjusting business models for profitability.

00:36:02 Utilizing Seasonality for Financial Planning

Using profitable months to set aside funds for leaner months, balancing cash flow and forecasting for sustainable financial management.

00:38:10 Confession: Thinking in Excel

Admission of being a "nerd" who plans everything, including holidays, groceries, and business strategies in Excel.

00:39:56 The Importance of Adaptability with Age and Experience

Adapting to unexpected situations with a calm demeanour, focusing on solutions rather than emotions, and growth in adaptability with age and experience.

00:40:47 Connect with Carleen Online

Carleen is active on LinkedIn and available for bookings on fxoconsulting.com, encouraging listeners to connect and start a conversation.

00:41:15 Ways to Support the Podcast

Encouraging listeners to support the Confessions podcast by sharing episodes, leaving reviews on Apple Podcasts, and subscribing for upcoming interviews.

00:00:00 Introduction to the Confessions Podcast

Cindy and Jess introduce their podcast aimed at helping nonprofit coaches and consultants scale their businesses, sharing insights and experiences.

00:02:28 Transition to Coaching from Consulting

Guest Jenny Mitchell shares her journey from classical musician to consultant to coach, emphasizing the shift towards coaching nonprofit and corporate women leaders.

00:06:37 New Business Model and Products

Jenny discusses her evolving business model with group coaching and one-on-one sessions, including Enneagram assessments and a new book in the works.

00:07:03 Enneagram and Fundraisers

Jenny identifies trends in Enneagram types among fundraisers, highlighting common personalities like twos, threes, and sixes.

00:08:59 Book Launch and Motivation

Jenny shares insights into her decision to write a book and the upcoming launches, revealing the motivation behind this creative endeavour.

00:09:08 The Journey to Writing a Book

The speaker shares the journey from the idea of writing a book to its realization, inspired by a podcast and research on women CEO's experiences, leading to a collaborative writing project with eleven other women.

00:12:43 Importance of Mentors and Coaches

Discussion on the significance of mentors and coaches in the book writing process, highlighting the role of an editor and the decision-making process between self-publishing and traditional publishing.

00:14:26 Understanding the Business Model

Exploration of the business models in book publishing, comparing hybrid publishing and traditional publishing, discussing ownership of rights and revenue sharing.

00:16:28 Financial Aspects of Collaborative Book Writing

Detailed breakdown of the financial model behind the collaborative book project, including costs for authors, hotel accommodations, editor's fees, and the long-term investment perspective.

00:19:44 Understanding Enneagrams and Motivation

Discussion on enneagrams as motivators, sharing enneagram types, and the importance of giving back.

00:20:35 Defining Ambition

Ambition as striving towards meaningful goals unapologetically and backing them with reputation and values.

00:21:12 Exploring Non-Work Related Hobbies

Conversation on starting hobbies like tennis, bridge, pottery, and printmaking for relaxation and creativity.

00:22:58 Challenges in the Nonprofit Sector

Reflections on the risk-averse nature of the sector, struggles with time constraints, and the value of writing books for opportunities.

00:24:46 Navigating PR for Book Promotion

Struggles with PR outreach, engagement of book publicist, digital promotion strategies, and the importance of collaborations in expanding audience.

00:28:18 Empowering Women Authors and Collaboration

The speaker discusses working with a diverse group of authors, owning the collective book rights, and the positive experience of collaboration and financial arrangements with a publisher.

00:31:06 Continuing Promotion and Future Plans

The importance of continuous book promotion, leveraging co-authors' networks, and potential future projects like a signature talk and workbook to spark meaningful leadership conversations.

00:34:37 Book Title Selection Process

The process of selecting the book title 'Embracing Ambition' through collaboration and testing different options, emphasizing the empowering and warm connotations of the chosen title.

00:37:30 Confession: Workaholic Tendencies

The speaker confesses to being a workaholic, struggling to balance work and personal life, and the need to find hobbies to prevent overworking.

00:39:02 Discussing the Challenge of Finding Hobbies

The discussion revolves around the challenge of finding hobbies as a way to balance work-life, especially for women, and the importance of accountability in pursuing hobbies.

00:39:57 Balancing Work and Family Life

Reflections on the balance between enjoying work and family life, intensity in work habits, and setting a positive example for children.

00:40:58 Life Post Children

Discussion on life after children, reevaluating purpose and contributions, and the inevitability of change and growth.

00:41:40 Connecting with the Guest

Information on how to connect with the guest online, find her book, and listen to her podcast geared towards women leaders.

00:42:43 Supporting the Podcast

Ways for listeners to support the podcast, including sharing on social media, recommending to others, and leaving positive reviews on Apple Podcasts.

Find Us Online:  https://www.confessionswithjessandcindy.com

Connect with Jenny: 

Chavender (Website): https://chavender.com/ 

Jenny Mitchell  (Instagram): https://www.instagram.com/jennychavender/ 

Jenny Mitchell (Linkedin): https://www.linkedin.com/in/chavender/

Connect with Cindy:

Cindy Wagman Coaching https://cindywagman.com

Fractional Fundraising Network https://www.fractionalfundraising.co/

LinkedIn:  https://ca.linkedin.com/in/cindywagman

Connect with Jess: 

Out In the Boons: https://www.outintheboons.me

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jess-campbell-outintheboons/ 

Transcript:

[00:00:00:00:00:03]

Welcome to the Confessions podcast. I'm Cindy Wagman.

[00:00:03:00:00:11]

And I'm Jess Campbell. We're two former in house nonprofit pros turn coaches and consultants to purpose driven organizations.

[00:00:11:00:00:20]

After years of building up our separate six figure businesses from scratch, we've thrown a lot of spaghetti at the wall and have lived to see what sticks.

[00:00:20:00:00:30]

We're on a mission to help other nonprofit coaches and consultants looking to start or scale their own businesses past the six figure mark by pulling back the curtain.

[00:00:30:00:00:51]

Whether you're still working sudden nonprofit and thinking of one day going out on your own or you've been running your consulting business for years, you understand that working with nonprofits is just different. We're giving you access to the business leaders who serve nonprofits as their clients. You know, the people who truly get it.

[00:00:51:00:01:10]

No more gatekeeping, no more secrets. This podcast is going to give you an inside look at what running a successful nonprofit coaching and consulting business looks like. Basically, we're asking people how much money they make, how they get paid, and what has and hasn't worked in their businesses.

[00:01:11:00:01:27]

Listen in as these leaders share their insights, their numbers, and the good, the bad, and the ugly. When it comes to building a nonprofit coaching or consulting business, we're going to empower you to make the power moves that give you the income and freedom you set out to create from day one.

[00:01:28:00:01:30]

You ready? Let's go.

[00:01:31:00:01:32]

Hey, jaz.

[00:01:32:00:01:33]

Hello.

[00:01:34:00:01:52]

We are coming to you, dear listeners. This is our third podcast recording of the day. So. Third, but, you know, I would say, last but not least, we're going to have some fun. Yeah, I feel like we should just dive in because there's nothing else. I feel like we talked about everything else.

[00:01:54:00:02:06]

Well, I feel like this will be a fun one because this is a guest that you actually have known quite a long time, and I'm just getting to know right here. So I feel like for the listeners, I'll be able to kind of fill in the gaps on things with, like, fresh ears and eyes, you know?

[00:02:06:00:02:28]

Yes, I always. It's the curse of knowledge, right? Sometimes you know too much. So that's why we work so well together, because we kind of know different people, and we also know a lot of the same people, but in some ways, we know different people. So without further ado, it's our pleasure to introduce Jenny Mitchell from Chavender. Jenny, welcome to the podcast.

[00:02:28:00:02:29]

Yay.

[00:02:30:00:02:33]

Pinch me. This is so exciting. Nice to be here.

[00:02:34:00:03:00]

It's such a pleasure to have you. We were just saying before we hit record that when I started consulting, everyone was like, you need to meet Jenny. You need to meet Jenny. She's doing things differently. And because I was like, who's doing cool things in our sector? And everyone said, you. And that's when we first met. And now you're doing even more differently. So let's start by telling us who you are and how you get paid, what you do in their sector.

[00:03:00:00:04:49]

Great question, great question. And looking forward to kind of one nice thing about this podcast, a little different, is we're speaking to the peeps, right? We're speaking to the people that are doing the consulting work as opposed to public facing kind of stuff. So very quick synopsis. Was a classical musician till I was 30 and lived and worked in New York City, had children there. It was amazing experience. And when the second baby arrived, I was like, ooh, this is not doable, this whole classical music practicing thing. And also, I always knew I had other skills. I loved organizing people. Fell into fundraising, raising money for pianos, because that's what we all do. Loved it. And basically worked as a consultant for the next 15 years. And the theme that came up, and, Cindy, this is probably where you and I really are simpatico because you were doing it a different way, and I was doing it this way, was these reports that we would write. It would take so much time and energy and effort and money, and then we'd hand them over, and with the best of intentions, it would sit on a shelf, and I got really tired of that. And every time I got into a shop, the people that were the bright lights were the staff. They were motivated, they were ambitious, they were keen, they were kind, they were nice people. And so that's the aha. Moment where I switched to coaching. I said, I'm not doing this report writing thing anymore. I'm gonna really double down on coaching. And about five years ago, I got my executive coaching certification, which we could talk about that. I thought it was a checkbox. I thought, oh, yeah, I know how to do this thing. No, actually, there's a heck of a lot to coaching. And I'm really, really excited about that direction of the business, shifting it more to helping the leaders, and in particular the women leaders in the not for profit and a little bit in the corporate sector as well.

[00:04:51:00:05:02]

Love it. And how, like, tell us a little bit about your products or services. I know you have a group program, or at least you did. Do you also do one on one? What does that look like?

[00:05:03:00:06:37]

Yeah. And like, you're catching me kind of in transition. My new word is liminal spaces. I love that word. Feel free to borrow. So the old way I used to make money was programs, right? So I always have, have done one on one coaching, which is kind of my signature, and then group coaching. And as well as things like money mindset and psychology of money, I teach an ask for anything course that I find is an evergreen that people love. So that's kind of been the old Chavender model. I now have a co coach in Chavendur. So Sherry Schaeffer has come in. So the new model is. Let's test this out with our listeners. A continuum of support from the emerging leader right up to the C suite. And Sheri manages things like the next level talent development, which is a group program for one to five years in the sector. It works. Sometimes we'll bring that into an actual department. So working with a university and working across their silos, so many silos, we could have a talk about that. And then I do the senior folks where there's one on one or it's in group programs. And the other thing I've added as far as products go is the Enneagram assessment. So when you work with me, you get a chance to have an enneagram assessment. That's the one with the numbers for those of you that are familiar. And the other part about the enneagram is it addresses your core motivation as opposed to your personality. And for fundraisers, I find that super helpful for understanding how we work with each other. So the book is also something that's new. I almost forgot to say it. So we can talk more about that.

[00:06:37:00:06:39]

I would have mentioned it anyways.

[00:06:39:00:06:47]

I'm kind of. I'm literally changing. Like, the websites are half done. So hopefully by the time this podcast come out, it'll all look really pretty for you.

[00:06:47:00:07:03]

All. Amazing. Okay, before we talk about the book, because I want to talk about the book, and I know this is like, everyone wants to talk about book writing, so we're going to dive into it. But because you talked about Enneagram, we have to know what Enneagram are you?

[00:07:03:00:07:07]

I'm. I'm a seven. Right. Enthusiastic visionary.

[00:07:08:00:07:09]

I love it.

[00:07:09:00:07:20]

Can we ask really quick, like on the spectrum, like, what would you say? I'm just curious what you would say. Most fundraisers fall into that.

[00:07:20:00:08:26]

Smart lady. So I am finding trends. They're anecdotal so far, right. I'm finding a lot of twos. So for our audience, that's the pleaser. Right. And the pleaser wants to make everybody their core motivation is that everybody's happy. Yeah, I find we do get a fair bit of the threes. Right. The threes are, I want to be the best, the achiever one. Yeah, exactly. Not so many fives, which are the quiet specialists, but maybe in the analytical stuff, and then lot of six is the loyal skeptics. So one of my projects for next year is actually to do some of that research because something I'm personally interested in is, you know, what's making these people leave the sector. We don't have enough people coming in the pipeline. We're not training them well. I've been playing with this term, professional mentorship, this idea that you can have. Well, Cindy, that's really your fractional fundraiser, but with the train, the trainee piece as well, because it's good value. But I'd like to actually get some data on why they're leaving.

[00:08:27:00:08:59]

First of all, I would love to offline talk about that research because we are seeing it. I'd love to see, from a consultant's perspective in the sector, what is motivating them and why they're moving out of in house. Anyways, we can talk about that. Okay, let's talk about a book. Your book. You are like you, just as at the time of recording, I think last week you had your Toronto book launch. Is your Ottawa book launch this week? Next week.

[00:08:59:00:09:00]

It's in two weeks.

[00:09:00:00:09:08]

Yeah, in two weeks. So you're in the thick of things. But let's go back. Why did you decide to write a book?

[00:09:08:00:11:39]

Yeah, so I mentioned school at the beginning. So I've always been a school junkie and a learner junkie. And I think. I think many people that end up as consultants are a bit of learner junkies. And so as an academic, writing a book was the epitome of arrival. Right? And as I contemplated this book, which I literally thought about for about six, I mean, my very first business coach, I was talking about writing a book, but I was just talking about it. The original model was 52 blog posts, which I was going to make into a book. And it was going to be called fundraising Mojo, because when I was working, I found that the most important ingredient for being successful as a fundraiser was keeping your mindset and keeping your head screwed on straight and feeling that it was possible. That didn't go. It just didn't feel like a book. It didn't feel like enough. And so I kind of put it on the back burner. I shifted, I did a bunch of other stuff, and then I recontemplated it after I launched the podcast. So I have a podcast called Underdog Leadership. My passion is helping number twos become number ones in work and life because that is part of my story and I really want to celebrate that for our sector. And I think that we should have way more CEO's that are previous VP developments than anything else. I just think the world would be a better place with more fundraisers in charge. And I came back to the book and I said, how would this be a joyful project? What if I moved it out of the, I have to do this to the joyful. And what I came up with was, well, it would be fun if I did it with other people. And then I was at icon in Toronto and I heard Doctor Megan Rabine speak from the podium about her doctoral research of the five pillars of the lived experience of women CEO's. And basically when she was speaking like Cindy and Jess, I was like, oh yeah, recognize that one? Oh yeah, yeah, that one. She was like, she was talking to me for real in the audience. And I made a beeline afterwards. And that research makes the, I call it like the backbone of the book. And then I found and I reached out to twelve, well, myself included eleven other women to join me for a weekend of writing, to write their first person leadership stories to fit into those pillars. And that was exactly a year ago, which seems hard to believe. It actually kind of took on a life of its own, but that's the origin of the book.

[00:11:41:00:11:48]

Oh my gosh, I cannot believe how speedy you've gone from like, wow, I'm like, sorry, you just blew me away with it.

[00:11:49:00:11:49]

That icon.

[00:11:49:00:11:52]

Wasn't this year's icon just last year's?

[00:11:52:00:11:54]

Yeah, it was still twelve months.

[00:11:54:00:11:55]

That's pretty good.

[00:11:56:00:12:43]

Really fast. Okay, so Cindy has written a book. I haven't. So I actually feel like I have a gift in this space because I like, have no idea what the steps are or anything. So I get to ask like, a spring chicken, new baby spring chicken. And I know a lot of folks are really, really, really interested in this process. And from what I gather online, it seems a bit daunting to like, get going and get started. So before we get into like, the steps you took, because I also think I understand that it can be different routes for different people, I'm curious if you had a mentor, had a coach, had a course, had a, something that you followed, or were you just like out there figuring it out on your own?

[00:12:43:00:14:12]

Yeah. So you're going to hear me time and time again, talk about mentors and coaches. I have one. I believe in them, and I had two, actually. I had a business coach at the time, and we were kind of talking through the mechanics of it. But I also worked with, I would call her an editor, and her name was Michelle Fishering. And I'm happy. We had a wonderful partnership. And originally, here's something that happened. We were going to self publish. And along the journey of self publishing, we realized that for some of the women, it was important that they be with a press, because some places when you go to speak, they want to have a book that's with a publishing printer, and that that brought more prestige. Of course, this is a podcast about the business, so there's pros and cons to self publishing. Less expensive, but you get more of the money publishing with a publisher. You know, I'm 20% of everything that goes through Amazon, so you can always buy the book from me as well. But I'm also learning that's a lot of work to be servicing that whole thing. But for me, that was the choice I went. So I had an editor from the very beginning, and the other thing that was really important to me was just because you're a CEO doesn't mean you can write well. And I wanted to deliver a real quality product. And so I had a very active editor throughout the whole process, and it was tons more work than I thought it would be.

[00:14:12:00:14:26]

Yeah. So let's talk about the business model of a book, because, I mean, we can get more into the process. I don't know. I don't want to take us away from that process, but I think the business model informs the process a little bit.

[00:14:26:00:14:27]

Absolutely.

[00:14:27:00:14:39]

Which is like. So I did a hybrid publisher, which I think yours is kind of similar. Like, they're publishing house, but, um, it's not like one of the big ones.

[00:14:39:00:14:41]

Where your book is theirs.

[00:14:42:00:14:47]

So you like, kind of. It's like kind of self publishing hybrid. That's why they call it hybrid.

[00:14:48:00:14:49]

Did you.

[00:14:49:00:14:49]

Is that.

[00:14:49:00:14:57]

No, I just, like, honestly, I could barely understand the differences when I, like, I just want to normalize this for people. Like, it's so complicated.

[00:14:57:00:14:57]

Yeah.

[00:14:57:00:15:11]

And in the end, I really went on trust, but, yeah, I would. I mean, it's with the university press? Which was one big advantage for us, but it all comes down to who gets the money and who owns the rights. Short answer. Yeah.

[00:15:11:00:15:29]

So for mine, I think, like, we own, I get more money, but I also paid for their service. Like, mine was like, a fee-for-service, whereas traditional publishing, I don't really think they pay very much upfront, but they take more of the revenue from the book sales. Is that.

[00:15:29:00:15:37]

Yes, that's correct. Yeah. Perfect. And they talk a very good tale about publicity and press and et cetera, and then nothing happens.

[00:15:37:00:16:28]

Yeah, yeah. So. But then also having this collective book where there were lots of authors, I mean, obviously, we've talked, and I think it's so clear by everyone who's interested in writing books, there is that prestige, there is that feeling of accomplishment. But there is a financial contribution that they make to be included in the book. Obviously, you select them for other reasons, but you provide them with editing. You provide them with that retreat. Talked about, like, a bunch of things. So, can you tell us about the financial model of the, like, break it down? What did it cost? What is there profit to it? What are you. What other outcomes are you hoping for? Walk us through the whole thing.

[00:16:28:00:19:28]

Yeah, thanks. So I'm laughing because it's a year later, and I look back a little bit naively, I'll be honest. I just want to own that, if this is called confessions. So, yes, my authors had what we would call a buy-in into the book. I would say that the bigger part of the buy-in was I picked a really nice hotel to host them in Friday to Sunday. And it was really important to me that it be a nice hotel, because the fundraisers never get the nice hotels. We always get the budget hotels. And so the cost that they paid in, around $4,800. And it sounds like a lot of money, but it actually doesn't go that far, to be honest. And what it allowed me to do was have some money to go well, to cover the hotel, to cover a wonderful time with them, to cover that sort of experience they had, as well as some funding for the person, the editor I was working with. There was an additional cost that I took on, a significant cost towards my editor to go towards that. And I am looking at my books thinking, I have no idea when I will be at zero, you guys, out of the hole. So I just want to be clear about that. And I'm talking at. Even at the rate I'm selling, I figure it'll be if I'm lucky. And the book does really well, maybe in three years. So when I was asking myself the question, I was like, okay, well, if I spent, you know, we're in the $30,000 range of sunk cost. And all I got at the end was a book, would I be happy? And the answer was yes. For a couple of reasons. One, I was very motivated. This project really spoke to me, and it was important to me. I would never have followed through if it was my own project to strategically partnering with these women. I also want to say, some of them I knew, some of them I didn't know at all. They were literally cold calls, but I knew of them and I really liked them, and I knew they would fit. So my gift is curating rooms for sure. That's what I do for a living. And I think also creating spaces where people can be vulnerable. And if you read the book, they are very vulnerable. Sincere stories in the pursuit of helping others learn from them. So now it's funny because my original pitch to them was, you know, I want to make a gift to charity. That's one of the components of this, because that is important to me, and I have a bit of accountability about that right now. It's kind of hurting my head to get myself around that gift. I know it'll be women's leadership. Fun fact, I reached out to a charity at the very beginning of this process to invite them to partner with me on this project and to be a participant, and they gratefully declined.

[00:19:32:00:19:40]

All right, Jenny, we are back for another round of rapid fire questions. You ready to play?

[00:19:40:00:19:43]

I'm ready. And competing? I'm ready.

[00:19:44:00:20:02]

I have a feeling you will win the prize. I can't remember even now if this was on camera or off camera, but we were talking about enneagrams, and enneagrams as motivators. And I'm curious, what's your enneagram motivating number? Like, which one are you? I don't know if we got to you.

[00:20:03:00:20:17]

I am a seven, and I am the enthusiastic visionary. But I will also say that I'm a social seven. So that giving back is and sort of for the greater mankind is part of my profile. And, yes, I have terrible fomo.

[00:20:17:00:20:35]

Oh, my gosh, that's so funny that you have that, because I couldn't have less fomo. My husband and I joke all the time. I'm happy to send one out. I'm curious, with the title of your book, embracing ambition, what does ambition mean to you?

[00:20:35:00:20:55]

Ambition means that you are unapologetically you, striving towards goals that have meaning and purpose for you, and you are not afraid to put your reputation, your values, and your personal street cred behind it. Good.

[00:20:55:00:21:12]

And then we were just talking about how all three of us fall in the workaholic category and how we would all love to embrace maybe a hobby or two, what is something that maybe you're thinking about starting that's not work related or you have started that's not work related? Give us some ideas and inspiration.

[00:21:12:00:21:48]

This would take a lot more time because I have been working on this quite actively. So I've always been a tennis player. I've added bridge last year. Super fun. If you like Euchre, you'll like bridge. I'm actually slightly obsessed with pottery right now, so I've just started a pottery course and I also did a printmaking course. That's the one where you do the etchings, you know, you etch out the ping. And I realized in that art class at the Ottawa School of art here in Ottawa that I had, it had been so long since I've sat in one place doing one thing for 3 hours in a row.

[00:21:49:00:22:16]

You know what I love about your hobby, and this is actually something I crave, is that there are things with your hand. I love that. I think especially for people like us who work so much like on computers and zoom and stuff, like I crave, whether it's gardening or pottery or something with building, I don't know. I want to use my hand a little bit more. So I love that. You'll have to show us some of your pieces.

[00:22:17:00:22:18]

Happy to.

[00:22:18:00:22:19]

Thanks for playing.

[00:22:23:00:22:24]

Wow.

[00:22:25:00:22:27]

Did they say why? Obviously you can't name who, but yeah.

[00:22:27:00:22:58]

No, they didn't feel they had enough time. They didn't feel that it was aligned. They were busy with other things. I'm really sad about it. I was really excited about bringing this to them. Yeah, I mean I have many mixed feelings about that. And I kept flipping it in my head thinking, well, if somebody brought me this and I was a women's charity and I got to associate myself with twelve women CEO's, would I jump at it? Hell yes. Yeah. But I mean our sector so risk

[00:22:58:00:24:46]

-averse and everyone's just got their heads down. And interestingly, I feel like that ties back to the mass exodus of people because there are fewer people to do more work and people are just, they can't see beyond their day to day. So I like, I can empathize, but also it's such a tragedy that our sector is going through. And I just want to acknowledge like my book in the end also cost me more than it brought in. Not quite as deep of a hole, but I actually lost track. I have no idea how much it cost me in the end. But again, that wasn't the motivating factor and it definitely opened up other opportunities for me, which I think if we're being real, for most people in our sector, writing books, that's what it's about. It's about, like, I hear a lot of people talking about it as like a calling card, right? Like something you're known for. Open up opportunities, speaking connections, all those things. That's the value. And one of the funny, well, I laugh about it because your PR person reached out to book you on this podcast, and I was like, jenny, why don't you just reach out to me? But I understand they're doing their job, but I'd like to talk about PR, because that is something like, if you're doing this, you got to do the work or hire a PR person to do the work to actually get it out there and be in front of people and have these conversations. So tell me about that process. I've been happy with how it's going. I've seen your pitch was good, but I've seen a lot of bad PR pitches. So you're safe with that. But, yeah, what's that been like?

[00:24:46:00:26:24]

Yeah. So really hard for a fundraiser to give up ownership of outreach, by the way. Really hard. So I am in this transition, like I talked about, and I'm trying, I really am working hard to walk the walk on the growth piece. And just like I work with clients, the expense is upfront and the revenue is at post. So I was laughing, you know, last year, March 31 is my year. And so all the expenses and all buying all the books is in last year. And I'm like, and all the money's gonna be on this side. And when I looked at, okay, great, I got this book done. So what. What would it take to get it into the hands of some people who could really make a change? And, you know, eyeballs are eyeballs are eyeballs. It is a game. PR is probably my least favorite thing in the whole business. I am not a gala girl. Right. It's just like, totally makes my skin crawl. I'm all about meaningful conversations. So I actually engaged a book publicist out of New Jersey, and I've been very happy with them. And what they do for me is they do. So now I'm learning that everything's moving to digital. So you're not going to get the global mail, you're not going to get the Washington Post out to anything. So it's all about digital links. It's all about writing articles. I've written more articles in my life the last three weeks. And, like. And you have to be smart. And pithy and cute. And listicles. Who knew that was a thing? Listicles is like, number one, number two, number three. And the whole time I'm like, almost. I'm not gagging because it actually becomes like a game. Like, how can I game the system? And I don't.

[00:26:24:00:26:27]

You say the same thing 20 times. Yeah.

[00:26:27:00:27:28]

And I'm still doing it all myself. I mean, I might use AI for ideas or whatever. So podcasts, digital links, press, influencers, you guys. You guys are rocking it. Influencers, you know, different angles, different positions. I talk a lot about women and money as well. It's one of a personal passion of mine, and I took a women's leadership course around money, and I'm very open about the importance of it. So I've been doing all this stuff this month about how to ask for a raise and personal empowerment. So I think it's. I'm going to renew it. I haven't figured out quite how long, but I think it's almost like, you know, when you commit to the capital campaign and you're like, we're in. Like, we're doing this, I'm in, and I'm going to own it all and I'm just going to, like. I don't. I can't tell you. I can start to see the traction. And it's been about three and a half months, so I'm hopeful for the next. Next three months.

[00:27:28:00:27:47]

Amazing. Um, I also think that you having this collaboration with these twelve other fundraisers is really smart. Right. I always say that collaborations are my favorite way to expand and grow my audience. I find it all easier to almost, like, shine light on other people than myself.

[00:27:47:00:27:48]

Not almost.

[00:27:48:00:28:18]

I absolutely do. And I'm wondering how collaboration has played into, like, the pr piece of it. For example, are you doing anything to make it easy for the other contributors to talk and share? Um, do they get any sort of, like, affiliate financial compensation for selling books? I'm just curious how the partnership and collaboration piece ties into, like, the whole business side of your book.

[00:28:18:00:31:04]

Yeah, that's a great point. So just a small point of clarification. Not all of them would identify as fundraisers. I would say that, um, there's about. There's three from not for profit. There's one that owns her own, two that own their own businesses. There's a couple that are more like charitable leaders, but they. So it's a neat little mix, Jess. So they own their stories. It was important to me that they own their stories and they can publish their stories wherever they want. But as a collective, I own the rights to the book, and therefore I am the one that receives the benefit when the book is sold. That being said, why I went with this publisher was they have a very attractive way of working with what we call drop-shipping. So if one of my authors wants to drop-ship 100 books to her house, they will do that for her and she gets it at cost, which is very reasonable. And anything she sells, she keeps. So that was actually one of the big motivators to go with this particular press company. It's been a really interesting experience just to hold space for collaboration when it comes to financial sides. And it's been absolutely, very, very positive, I just want to highlight. But I think it kind of speaks to the way women work and the way our sector may work in the future. It gives me hope. For example, one of the balances I've had is it's our book, but it's my book, and how to pay service to these women, because they really are incredible and they put themselves out there and, you know, I supported them. It feels a little bit like. Like a. Like a campaign cabinet. Like they've become raving fanatics about the book, and they are the ones that are pushing the agenda on many, many things, which is, I think, one of my gifts. Right. I came from the classical music world, where we communicated without words. And I think that's one of the things I'm very excited and my energy kind of passes on. We've just finished the first round of PR, Jess, around myself and me and yada Yada and Chavender, and we're just sort of cracking the nut of, oh, where did you go to school? Because the alumni department would love to hear about you. And what's this? The vertical alignment. So they're in different sectors. How do we access those marketing people? And similarly, with the alignment with the press, it might be more valuable for Carly, who's from the hospitality, she owns a hospitality business, to do that interview. And I'm of the minds, and I know you guys are, too, that the more the merrier. I'm not so concerned about how it all slices and dices. It seems to always come back in spades for me.

[00:31:06:00:32:05]

Yeah, I mean, that's. That's how Jess and I work. So before we wrap up and go into confessions, you mentioned, like, you're re upping with, I think, with PR and continuing down this path. And I think that that's one of the things that people who are thinking about writing a book or written a book really need to consider. It has to. You have to keep pushing. You have to have it, like, constantly out there because that is the only way it's going to work for you. You have to drive that. So what kind of, like, you talked about leveraging, like alumni associations or, like, looking at different places where the co authors are, where there's overlap, what's on your radar? How do you want to use this to continue? And this is a totally separate question, but are there any other books in your future?

[00:32:07:00:34:36]

I think I'm good with one book. For now, I'm just going to say I think what I haven't built yet is the signature talk, because we did a presentation at icon that I thought went really well, which was four of the women talking about the beginning of their story and then workshopping the scenarios and then closing with the conclusion. I want to have more meaningful conversations about what's really happening in leadership, and I want to do it in an honest and authentic way with lots of voices at the table. And that's not stuff you can kind of make it, make it pithy. Right? So the book has, at the end of every pillar, reflection questions. So I definitely have a signature talk about embracing ambition on my radar, that will anchor in the book, that will speak to some of my personal experiences, that will bring levity. I think we have to have levity. The conversation I can also see I've been playing with, oh, this is going to go on tape. But anyway, a workbook, I think a workbook would be really cool, but I want it to be organic. Like, I want people to come back to me and say, this would have been really helpful. And then finally, you know, if I've done my work right with this book, it prompts different conversations at the senior leadership suite table, not just how we're doing on our annual, but can I share with you a story about my first job as a blank and how it shaped my leadership, the expression of my leadership, because we are not having those conversations. And I was in my mastermind groups with people that I thought I knew really well. So I'd have clients come in, I've been working with them forever, and we'd be in a mastermind situation where we're supporting each other, and they would tell me these origin stories of their leadership, and I'd be like, how do I not know that about you? Like, that explains so much. And the opportunity to slow down as a leader and capture your leadership approach like somebody described it as you're on this conveyor belt and you're constantly moving as a leader. And these are women running big companies, right. The opportunity to take a weekend and step off and take stock and capture it and be able to go back to the office and explain what you stand for, it's actually priceless. And that may also be another module that I explore.

[00:34:37:00:34:58]

Cindy, I love that. I don't think we actually named the book in the podcast yet. It's called embracing ambition, which as soon as I saw that title, I was like, yes, I am here for it. I love it. So where did the title come from, and why is it important for you as a title?

[00:34:58:00:36:39]

Yeah. So, like any good fundraiser, I tested. So I had a some. I had sort of the people I admire, and then I had the authors, because, again, we're collaborative. So I wanted at every turn, everybody to feel like they had a say in every decision. And that was incredibly intentional. And I think I had one called overcoming. I can't remember them all embracing ambition. There was a couple of more. There was one called just watch me. That was another title I had, and I tested it, and the feedback I got, of course, was overcoming felt sounded like too much like becoming Michelle Obama. And it was really interesting to see because people had visceral reactions to things. We know this, right, their core beliefs. But the idea of the word embracing in front of ambition, people really like that sort of warmth added to it. And it's empowering women to step out, be seen and lead. And we spent a heck of a time on that tagline. So my other comment to your listeners is, you know the old adage where you spend 50% of the time on the subject line of the email and 50% of the time on the content. It rings true for books, and I wanted, this book is really for the 30 year old, 40 year old. The goal is that you'd read this and you'd be like, okay, now I'm prepared. Like, we can do a better job of preparing what people are going to encounter in the world on the journey up to the c suite. And so I listened to their voices, and embracing ambition actually came out by far on top. It was actually an easy decision in the end.

[00:36:40:00:37:28]

I love that this is totally aside, but, like, I can totally see you having t shirts that say, like, ambitious. I want bossy ones. For me, I'm like bossy because I feel like that's another word that we use with women and could have negative connotations. But if we embrace it and own it, I think it's so powerful. So if you do ambitious t shirts, and I will wear one. I love that. Okay, Jenny, before we wrap up, share with us a confession. You've been doing this business for a while in different ways. What's something you still are working on or you haven't shared or maybe you don't really want people to know about that experience.

[00:37:30:00:38:37]

What is a confession? There's so many. Let's see. I would say that, okay, that this. I'm a workaholic, and I have a really, really hard time turning it off. And the confession, that's not a confession. That's a fact. The confession is that part of the workaholic piece is that sense of worrying that I'm still not good enough, fighting against the grain. The second part of that is that how I'm managing it is because I'm in an age of stage where I'm not hustling the same way I was for next month's rent. I am actually shifting that. Working hard. I want to work hard, and I want to play just as hard so that the two are kind of balancing each other out. When I haven't had the play, the work hard just consumes. And. I mean, like, I wake up after 4 hours of being at the computer and realize I haven't eaten, haven't sleep, slept. I have hyper focus. So that's. That's my confession. Yeah.

[00:38:37:00:38:40]

So I was just thinking. Yeah.

[00:38:40:00:38:41]

Yeah.

[00:38:41:00:39:02]

I was just thinking to myself that I need a hobby because if I don't have to. Your point? If I don't have something to do, my default is to just do more work. And I'm intentionally trying to not do as much work, but I don't have something to replace it with. So maybe we can start a hobby together. Yeah.

[00:39:02:00:39:10]

I think it was Tanya, our friend Tanya Bhattacharya, who, like, made that a goal of hers to, like, find a hobby.

[00:39:10:00:39:19]

I think Rhea and I joke about this, too. I mean, most of our consultant friends struggle with the same thing.

[00:39:19:00:39:20]

Well, and I think.

[00:39:20:00:39:20]

But I also think that.

[00:39:21:00:39:21]

Oh, go ahead.

[00:39:21:00:39:29]

No, let me finish that. I think the second part of that is a hobby where you have to be somewhere with someone or you let them down.

[00:39:30:00:39:31]

Accountability.

[00:39:31:00:39:46]

Yeah. But I think it's a fine line because I also think that as women, and we're all mothers who just get pulled in a lot of directions, I also think there is something to be like. Like, would we be saying this if.

[00:39:46:00:39:49]

We were a man, Drew?

[00:39:49:00:39:57]

I don't know. But I do know other women who are not mothers who've experienced the same things. But. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know.

[00:39:57:00:40:18]

But, like, I never. My husband, like, never questions like, him working from six to seven or something and, like, asks himself, like, do I, like. You know? You know what I mean? I don't know. I also wonder if there's, like, a. Like, it's okay that we like to work, but if you don't want that, that's a whole different thing. But if you do it, like, Brooke.

[00:40:18:00:40:18]

Brooke.

[00:40:19:00:40:22]

She's like, I like work. And I'm like, me, too.

[00:40:22:00:40:57]

And I think, like, I have two girls, so I'm really mindful that they see that I enjoy my work. That's really important to me. But I'm not gonna lie. Like, I have to turn it off and I have to go and I have to sit. And it's joyful, don't get me wrong. But, you know, there's an intensity to me. Maybe I'll just own that. Maybe that's the confession, is I'm pretty intense. I've accepted that now. And so sometimes it can be hard to get my attention. And what I find happens is I just shift the intensity to something else. So I'm intense about Bridge. I'm intense about tennis. Like it's kind of an epidemic.

[00:40:58:00:40:59]

But, you know, ladies.

[00:40:59:00:41:40]

Yeah. I'm here to tell you that there's life post children in your house. Like, I'm just starting. And you wake up and you look at your partner, you're like, okay, I like you. Or like, who the heck are you? And with the women in my life are saying, how do I want to contribute for the next 50 years? And it becomes like this. It's not so much even existential. It's what's my purpose? Because my purpose has been caring. Caring for others. And so that's something I think a lot about. And I'd like to maybe normalize that a bit more for some of our and maybe your listeners a little younger. But for all of us, it's coming. This, too, will pass. Yeah.

[00:41:40:00:41:49]

I love that. Jenny, how can people find the book, connect with you online? I'll hear one of your talks, your signature talk.

[00:41:49:00:42:38]

The signature talk that doesn't exist yet. Yes. Book me for the signature talk. Then I'll have to write it. They can find me at probably. My website's probably easiest, chavender.com. That's Chavender like lavender, but with a ch at the beginning. And you can find the book there. There's a little tab called book. And you can buy it through Amazon. Super easy. You can purchase it from me and I'll be delighted design it for you. You can also have a listen to my podcast. I try like you guys to do quality product with takeaways and really geared towards women leaders who are looking for more. I was that person that wanted one of my little signature things is I'd like to be a little bit better than I was yesterday. And if I'm constantly doing that and learning something new, I'm good.

[00:42:39:00:42:41]

I love that. Thank you, Jenny.

[00:42:43:00:42:54]

Thank you again for listening to the Confessions podcast for nonprofit coaches and consultants. If you enjoyed today's episode, which I sure hope you did, you can show your support in one of three ways.

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