Let's get visible, visible! With Jess and Cindy
“But showing up consistently, working, being visible with your audience, I think is most important out of all.” - Cindy Wagman
Do you even exist if you’re not online? All jokes aside (of course you do), being visible to your audience can help build the “know, like, and trust” factor for you and your business. People go to your social media or your website as a part of getting to know you and the solutions you have for them. On this episode of the Confessions podcast, we'll tackle the importance of visibility for business growth.
Highlights:
The value of being visible for your consulting business
How to connect through social media without being sales-y
Building partnerships to reach your target audience
Growing visibility through speaking at conferences and podcasts
Showing up as a Thought Leader
Find Us Online: https://www.confessionswithjessandcindy.com/
Connect with Cindy:
Cindy Wagman Coaching https://cindywagman.com/
The Good Partnership https://www.thegoodpartnership.com/
Connect with Jess:
Out In the Boons: https://www.outintheboons.me/
Transcript:
[00:00:00] Cindy: Welcome to the Confessions Podcast. I'm Cindy Wagman.
[00:00:03] Jess: And I'm Jess Campbell. We're two former in-house non-profit pros turned coaches and consultants to purpose-driven organizations.
[00:00:11] Cindy: After years of building up our separate six-figure businesses from scratch, we've thrown a lot of spaghetti at the wall and have lived to see what sticks.
[00:00:20] Jess: We're on a mission to help other non-profit coaches and consultants looking to start or scale their own businesses past the six-figure mark. By pulling back the curtain.
[00:00:30] Cindy: Whether you're still working inside a non-profit and thinking of one day going out on your own, or you've been running your consulting business for years, you understand that working with nonprofits is different. We're giving you access to the business leaders who serve nonprofits as their clients. You know the people who truly get it.
[00:00:52] Jess: No more gatekeeping, no more secrets. This podcast is going to give you an inside look at what running a successful nonprofit coaching and consulting business looks like. Basically, we're asking people how much money they make, how they get paid and what has and hasn't worked in their businesses.
[00:01:11] Cindy: Listen in as these leaders share their insights, their numbers, and the good, the bad, and the ugly. When it comes to building a nonprofit coaching or consulting business, we're gonna empower you to make the power moves that give you the income and freedom you set out to create from day one.
[00:01:28] Jess: You ready? Let's go.
[00:01:31] Jess: Hey, Cindy.
[00:01:32] Cindy: Hey, Jess,
[00:01:33] Jess: I'm so excited to talk with you again.
[00:01:37] Cindy: I'm always, I'm always excited. I love having these conversations.
[00:01:40] Jess: I was just thinking like we haven't... in podcast land, a little behind the scenes is we practice the art of batching and so there's some weeks where we don't get to see each other and so it's been a minute.
[00:01:54] Cindy: And we've been... both of us have been really busy right now.
[00:01:56] Jess: It's been so...
[00:01:57] Cindy: Yeah. For you listeners, you are really like a fly on the wall in our conversations on this podcast today.
[00:02:06] Jess: Yeah. I think both of us walked into today's scheduled time that we booked what feels a lifetime ago and we were like, "Are we really doing this?" Because there's so much to do. But I'm excited 'cuz we have a topic that everyone always needs to know about. And it's for personally something for me that I didn't get sold on or start practicing until like two or three years into my business.
[00:02:36] Cindy: Interesting.
[00:02:36] Jess: Yeah, I don't know. I think people are surprised sometimes that even though I show up specifically on social media all the time, it is not my comfortable place at all.
[00:02:51] Cindy: I mean, okay, let everyone know what we're talking about because I wanna dive in.
[00:02:57] Jess: No, Yes, yes, yes.
[00:02:59] Cindy: You guessed it right. Gold star for you. So we're talking about visibility today because, I mean, to your point, Jess, I actually like hate... I think people find this surprising too. I hate seeing myself on social. I hate seeing myself on video. I hate looking at myself speaking. And I think all of us are a little uncomfortable with that, but visibility has been an important part of our business.
[00:03:24] Jess: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I think, for me, it doesn't come naturally to me. I was actually with some girlfriends last week and none of us are the types of friends that just naturally pull out our phone to be like, "Let's capture this moment. Let's take a photo." You know, sometimes in groups there's always one and it's certainly not me, so it just doesn't come naturally to document my life. And…
[00:03:53] Cindy: Same.
[00:03:53] Jess: I have to really push myself to put it out there.
[00:03:59] Cindy: Do you think it's ‘cause we're old?
[00:04:01] Jess: No. Actually, in college, when Facebook originated, Berg and I are the same age and grade, which is depressing considering where we are in life compared to one another. But when Facebook originated for those young people that might be listening, it was only available college by college, by college. It rolled out.
[00:04:25] Jess: And so I was like a sophomore or junior, I can't remember. And a friend of mine 'cuz I was like, "I'm not doing that." I'm not doing that and a friend of mine created a profile for me and that's how I got on Facebook. So...
[00:04:38] Cindy: I love that story.
[00:04:39] Jess: I've always been like this.
[00:04:40] Cindy: Yeah. I don't remember how I got on Facebook, but I do know it was in 2007.
[00:04:47] Jess: Yeah,
[00:04:47] Cindy: Couple years after college for me. So, yeah. But even I hear this from people a lot because I have and I know both of us, I mean, we're booking a photo shoot together in January like we put ourselves out there even when it's uncomfortable. And I've invested quite significantly in what that looks like and feeling confident in putting myself out there but it did not come naturally to me either. The only thing I'll say is like, "I don't care enough to filter or my content."
[00:05:24] Cindy: So once I started I was just like, "I'm gonna be me." And so if I don't have things perfectly polished or if I'm not saying things like I go live a lot because I just feel that's really easy for me and not a lot. But I mean, compared to other things. And I'm not scripted and I don't care. It's fine if I don't say all the right things.
[00:05:50] Jess: I think for folks. Maybe listening, who, especially for any consultants that are doing one-to-one work or you know, they don't need hundreds and hundreds of clients every year I can see where they're like, "Why would I invest any of my resources or time into it?" And my pushback to that is always people can't find what they can't see and I can't tell you how many of my clients have come to me through Instagram, Pinterest, LinkedIn speaking, I know that you are such a staunch proponent of referral based marketing, and I think that that's wonderful, but I'm one of those people that that hasn't been my main driver of new business.
[00:06:39] Cindy: Yeah.
[00:06:40] Jess: And it's a hundred percent because of my visibility that I have a business.
[00:06:48] Cindy: Yeah.
[00:06:49] Jess: And I think what would be maybe helpful, because it evolves, it changes every damn day. It feels like to talk through what channels have worked for us in our vision. For folks who are kind of considering, okay, in 2023 or in the new year, I'm gonna give it a go. I'm gonna do one thing which 1:00 AM I'm gonna pick? Knowing that what works for you is gonna be different than what works for me versus someone else.
[00:07:17] Cindy: Yeah. Well I'm happy to start 'cuz I feel like I've tried all the things.
[00:07:23] Jess: Yeah.
[00:07:24] Cindy: And I can tell you the ones that I feel have the most payoff, but some that I feel like are just necessary. So I feel like LinkedIn is one that is really important as a B2B 'cuz that's what we are, right? We often don't think, but we're B2B. So B2B, I definitely feel like LinkedIn is the place. My other... I love speaking. I really love speaking. I love speaking on stage. I love speaking on podcasts. I feel like, and I've had direct business coming out of those opportunities. I mean, we're recording this. I'm like, "Tomorrow is my fourth in-person speaking at a conference in three weeks." I'm a little tired of it, but even that, I feel like I could keep doing it and I really feel the traction. There's something about being in person that I think really. Makes it a lot easier for people to connect with you.
[00:08:30] Jess: Okay. So let's step back. I'm gonna interview you.
[00:08:33] Cindy: Oh, what.
[00:08:36] Jess: Well, I'm just gonna go through these specifically. So I really like LinkedIn too. Of all the platforms out there, I find it to be one of the easier ones to get actually seen because it does that kind of spider web effect of networks. And our friend, Tania Batthacharrya will tell you that only 3% of LinkedIn users produce original content, so there's just a vast opportunity, unlike a lot of the other platforms. But I'm just curious, what is your posting schedule? How has that changed over the last few years now that there has been an introduction to video? And then what specifically are you getting from it? Because I can share and then I can share up.
[00:09:18] Cindy: Yeah.
[00:09:18] Jess: For me.
[00:09:19] Cindy: So, for me, it is kind of like I treat it like my weekly email. In the sense that now I'm not as consistent on LinkedIn, I will, I'm the first to say I actually don't have a schedule. Usually, I just go with video based on I like, posting stuff like, "Here's what I'm seeing from my clients. You might be seeing this too." If you are, let's chat, book a call. So I do that and it's really not scheduled in advance and it's probably not the best strategy but it's fine. And then I have a newsletter where I actually take my podcast 'cuz I have a small nonprofit podcast and I take that and turn it in that email that goes out with that to my list. I also publish on LinkedIn as a LinkedIn newsletter.
[00:10:09] Cindy: So between the two of those, what I like about LinkedIn is that when I go speak at a conference or when I present even like I presented at your Make It Happen Conference and I can connect with people on LinkedIn, even if I don't have their email address, which is obviously always the goal. But even if I don't have that, I feel like I'm in better control of what content goes out there. It's a little more long form, it's a little more helpful, and I feel like that is people have sort of... it's like a nurturing space for that, for me.
[00:10:44] Jess: Mm-hmm. And are you doing any prospecting or outreach, or are you just a content creator?
[00:10:53] Cindy: Right now, content creator. What about you? I'm always uncomfortable with the direct outreach, but I know it works for people.
[00:11:01] Jess: Yeah. I mean, I don't, because, I mean, if you think you're inconsistent with LinkedIn, I'm like the next level. I do try and post one time a week. That's my goal. And the reason is because my experience with LinkedIn is posts really have longevity compared to other platforms and letting your posts breathe, lets the algorithm run its full course versus when you post on top of one another, it can shut a post down Even just this last week, I was like flexing around in there and I was getting content from October. We're talking in mid-November right now. These are 2, 3, 4 weeks old content from people in my network. And I was like, "Interesting. What's happening?"
[00:11:49] Jess: I will also say on LinkedIn that anything that's controversial, kind of...
[00:12:02] Cindy: I like to call it like your stake in the ground or rant.
[00:12:06] Jess: Yeah. Something like always does really well and for me, like having a proper opinion about something. And you know, that comes with a grain in salt. You know, you always, it is still a professional network. So I will say that. And then the other thing that I think people forget about LinkedIn is people are sleepers. They're like incognito. And so while people might not be engaging with your post, you know, commenting, liking, et cetera. They are reading it, I think, at a different pace than other platforms. And so I think that's just another reason why LinkedIn should be in people's strategies.
[00:12:53] Cindy: Yeah.
[00:12:53] Jess: Because again, one time a week, the longevity and then just the absorption of content, I think is unlike the other social platforms out there that make it work it out.
[00:13:05] Cindy: I wanna ask you, so you said you don't do direct outreach on LinkedIn, but I feel like you've done a little bit like somewhat direct outreach on Instagram or at least more sliding into people's DMs and I've never done that. So I would love to hear about your experience with that and how you keep it 'cuz I know you keep it authentic. And yeah, tell us, give us your wisdom.
[00:13:33] Jess: Yeah, I mean, so for anyone that follows me, Instagram is my preferred platform, but in general, I've just pulled back on social media a lot and I think that that's an evolution. I'm three years into really running social accounts across the board for Out In The Boons, and you know where before I was like five to six times a day showing up on stories all the time. I just don't do that level anymore.
[00:14:01] Jess: One thing that I used to do is I really did used to like search hashtags and find my ideal clients, which on Instagram is a little bit more tricky because one thing I can't believe, I've just had this epiphany like I cannot believe it took me this like three years to like have this aha moment. But people go to LinkedIn with their professional hat on, their networking hat on. And people come to Instagram to chill the fuck out. And so I'm over here trying to teach and educate and people just wanna zone out.
[00:14:38] Cindy: We wanna see your dog, we wanna see Billy.
[00:14:41] Jess: That is some place to go and you're like taking that 15-minute break after back-to-back Zoom calls, you know? And I cannot believe it's taken me this long to have that epiphany because now I do is I really try to entertain on Instagram more than educate and inform. And show my dog.
[00:15:02] Cindy: And you are really entertaining, I have to say. Especially when you do like the memes. Oh my goodness.
[00:15:09] Jess: Oh my gosh. I sent Mackenzie. Should I just look a meme account on Instagram because literally,
[00:15:13] Cindy: It's so good.
[00:15:14] Jess: Vast engagement. But going back to the outreach. So what I used to do is I really used to start hashtags and find nonprofits or find people that maybe they listed that they were an executive director or nonprofit founder in their bio. And I would practice going to a post two or three and leaving proper comments on there. It's not just a heart or emoji, emoji, emoji, but a proper comment on their page and maybe I would send them a dm 'cuz this has happened naturally, not me even trying to be sliding into people's DMs. But I'll hear about a nonprofit or it'll come across my For You Page or whatever it's called on Instagram. And I'll be like, "Oh my gosh, I see that like you are helping formerly incarcerated women get back to work. I used to work for a nonprofit that did similar work in Los Angeles. I think what your mission is doing is so cool." It's real. I'm like...
[00:16:16] Cindy: Yeah.
[00:16:16] Jess: Genuinely being real, but I'm not like trying to say "And if you want more information about how you can work with," and blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, no, this is legit. And one of the things, I'm just gonna keep talking for 30 seconds longer. So, I ran...
[00:16:34] Cindy: Keep talking for as long as you need.
[00:16:36] Jess: Well, I was running campaigns that convert with a cohort. It's this kind of high read course group coaching program. And I guess in one of my lessons, which just goes to show that I need to revisit them. I mentioned this strategy, this outreach strategy for nonprofits to use with people who follow them. And I got a shout-out to Joe at Make Do because she listened and caught it and she started executing that now in her lead up phase. And she wrote in the group, she was like, "Holy guacamole! And this really works! A hundred percent of the people have DM-ed me back, most of them saying like... "Oh my gosh, no one ever does this." You know, this outreach, when they follow you send them a note. And I was like, "Gosh, I love it when I'm like..."
[00:17:21] Cindy: Smart. Right?
[00:17:22] Jess: Right. That I'm smart and I forget that I'm so smart. And it just reminds me that engagement requires... is a two-way street and you gotta give a little to get a little. And I just see so many people not doing that and you're missing the entire point. So, okay, rant and...
[00:17:47] Cindy: So don't be afraid of DMs. Make it authentic. Make it two-way. And you're not selling, you're connecting.
[00:17:54] Jess: Can I say one thing? I heard on the podcast that I was like, "I'll hack this and figure out how to use this someday." But it was a person whose name I've totally forgotten, who does like video production or video editing for companies, so like short form reels, YouTube videos, website videos, et cetera. And they... on LinkedIn will use the search feature finding small businesses and they will say, "Hey, I went to your website and I saw that you don't have any video, and here are three prompt ideas, or here are three questions you could do face to cam. Thought it would be helpful, and if you're looking for more in-depth strategy, let's hop on the phone." And this person said it works like gangbusters.
[00:18:49] Jess: So I'm thinking for people who listen, it's like, "Hey, I looked at your annual report and noticed that your revenue streams, you have no grant-making. Are you interested in getting a starter pack for grant writing started? Let's jump on a call." Or like, "I see that your website could use a refresh. I do that." Or stuff like that. And it's like leading with value.
[00:19:13] Cindy: Yeah. Which still like... I don't know. I get it, but it still feels like a stretch for me. I mean, the worst are people who connect like, "Oh, I see...." some random fact of like, "We know people in common," and then they try and sell you on shit right away. And I'm like, "No, no, no, no."
[00:19:30] Jess: No. I don't like that either. No, I don't think anyone else. You know what we should do? Next time we get a good one, we should highlight that or something.
[00:19:39] Cindy: Yeah.
[00:19:40] Jess: Or invite them maybe we can podcast.
[00:19:42] Cindy: A good one and a bad one.
[00:19:44] Jess: Yeah.
[00:19:44] Cindy: And roast someone too.
[00:19:46] Jess: Yeah.
[00:19:48] Cindy: Okay. So, social media. I mean, we could go on and on about social media, but I think where people get stuck is there are different kinds of social, and you have to figure out which one is authentic to you and where your customers are but there's so many other… Let's call them stages or places where you can get seen. You know, you and I actually, before we started recording, we were talking about other people's audiences. And looking at how you can get visible through relationships with other people who either do complementary or similar or serve the same audiences.
[00:20:27] Cindy: I know you've been on both sides of that equation where you have the audience that other people are engaging with and vice versa. So what's your experience been with that? 'Cuz I think you've had more success than I have with some of that.
[00:20:45] Jess: Well, maybe. I think I've been maybe more successful at building, creating this stage and you've been more successful speaking on this stage and think that's probably why I'm like, "I just wanna keep building my own stage versus talking on others because it's been more fruitful for me." But if I was to go back, It's way easier to attach yourself to other audiences at the beginning than it is to build from scratch. So I don't know really why it just crossed over and I did not realize that you could do that till two or three years in and after I built my own.
[00:21:25] Cindy: You're a community builder. I think that you are... that is your job zone of genius and you naturally connect people and bring people together so it makes sense for you to have that.
[00:21:36] Jess: Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is hindsight's 20-20. And to go back, I would've just pitched myself to other people's audiences way at the beginning because building your own stage is a lot of work.
[00:21:54] Cindy: Yeah. But you're also in control, right? So as someone who has spoken when I launched my book, I was on probably 15 different podcasts. And I actually was able to track book sales from each one. It wasn't a lot. Now you and I were talking before as well, talk a lot about marketing and that visibility sometimes has direct links to business and sometimes it's just marketing. Getting yourself out there and building up that presence for people might decide in a year to buy that book or to do something else. It's not that it doesn't have value, but you have... getting visible and building off other people's audiences is also a lot of work. It's just different work.
[00:22:42] Cindy: And I've gotten to a point where I can generally just show up and talk about things because I've said that so many times, but if I have to create a new presentation or something like that, that also takes time, right?
[00:23:01] Jess: Okay. But let's go back. Let's talk about your pitching because I know both you and our friend Rachel Bear Bower, like to go these blitzes where you will sit down and do the pitching because unfortunately, so many of these stages are still making these application requirements. It's like for me, I don't have time for that. And so I admire you all putting the effort in there. So tell us how do you decide which ones to go to? What kind of things are you pitching? You're also a podcast host extraordinaire so you can tell us on the backside, what is a pitch that comes through that is not going to get, you know what I mean? Like...
[00:23:44] Cindy: Oh yeah.
[00:23:45] Jess: Give us the inside scoop.
[00:23:47] Cindy: Okay. So when I pitch other podcasts, I'm very specific in like, "Here's your... I know your audience and this is why I can add value to that audience and here's what we could talk about." And that served me well. Like I said, when I launched the book, it wasn't like, "Hey, I have a new book that you should cover on your podcast." It was like, "Hey, this book is relevant to your audience and here's some speaking notes or like some thoughts around what we could talk about that would help them raise more money." Right?
[00:24:23] Cindy: So, and as a podcast host who gets a ton of unsolicited applications, like there are so many that are generic, I get ones that are like, "Here's our nonprofit, we're doing such great work. Your audience would love to know about us," or ones that are like, "We wanna be more visible," and get donations. I'm like, "You don't know my audience 'cause my audience is nonprofits, so they're not gonna be donating to you. That's not the purpose of our show."
[00:24:53] Jess: Totally.
[00:24:53] Cindy: So the ones that don't know are really bad. I've also pitched where people have been like... oh, well, I had two really weird ones. One woman was like, "You have to write and review our podcast before I'll consider you as a guest and listen to two episodes or something like that." And I was like, "I don't pay to play." That feels a little awkward. And then one guy wanted exclusivity. He's like, "Sure, you can be on my podcast, but you can't be on other podcasts for a year."
[00:25:32] Jess: What?
[00:25:33] Cindy: No, dude. I dunno who you think...
[00:25:36] Jess: Yes to that. Yeah.
[00:25:38] Cindy: Anyways, that was pretty funny. But yeah, and I think the same is true of actual stages or virtual conferences, all of that. Now I will say virtual conferences, a lot of them and some in-person stages, a lot of them still come through my network. A couple weeks ago I was speaking at the Ontario Nonprofit Networks, big annual conference. And I was invited to that because my friend Brock knew someone there and they were looking for someone to speak. So shout out, Brock. That was... thank you. But...
[00:26:16] Cindy: And then similarly tomorrow, at the time of recording this, I'm speaking at the AFP Southeastern Ontario's conference and someone just referred me. I didn't apply, I didn't know what was happening. About three or four weeks ago, I got an email saying like, "Hey, are you free to do this?" And I was like, "Sure. If I can use the content I already have." So...
[00:26:39] Jess: Okay. Let's talk.
[00:26:40] Cindy: Yeah.
[00:26:40] Jess: And we talk about, again, making those decisions because what about when they require travel and accommodations? And are you... especially the ones in person on stages, I mean, I host a virtual conference. Little old me and I figured out a way to pay people, so....
[00:26:58] Cindy: Mm-hmm. Oh my god.
[00:27:00] Jess: I know this is maybe like a tangent, but I guess I'm just deciding how do you decide... yeah.
[00:27:05] Cindy: So I'll give you like really specifics?
[00:27:08] Jess: Yeah.
[00:27:08] Cindy: I'll give you specifics because I---
[00:27:11] Jess: You're literally going through.
[00:27:13] Cindy: Like an open book. And it's crazy. I'm gonna get really, really specific. So, I have to wait. The crazy thing is the big conferences, for some reason, don't pay. I don't know how they make money or not make money, how they think they can't afford to. But over the last, I'll just focus t on the last three weeks. Okay.
[00:27:38] Cindy: So the first one was Ontario Nonprofit Network. That is a space I've been wanting to get into for years. So they didn't pay and it was local, but I agreed because of their relationship, they've never, ever, ever had fundraising as a topic in their conference. So this was a really good opportunity for me to get my foot in the door and really make an impact and build those relationships. So for me, no-brainer and is local. So that was fine.
[00:28:09] Cindy: Few days later, I was asked to speak at a very small conference for a membership organization that served other nonprofits. They paid $3,000 for me to go and speak for an hour. And it was local, right? This is the craziest thing. I can tell your face was frozen in shock for a minute. It's crazy. So they had funding to put on this conference and yeah, it was an hour-long presentation. It was a group. I kid you not, there were 20 people there. There were people online too and it was local, so I drove for like 40 minutes to the airport area in Toronto. Okay.
[00:28:58] Cindy: Then a few days later, I'm at the AFP Congress in Toronto, which is like Canada's biggest fundraising conference, also local. They comped me one day of the two day conference as a speaker. They do have some funding if you qualify as what they would consider diverse as a speaker. They also give you an honorarium. So, yeah... But...
[00:29:26] Jess: Wait, wait. They didn't even give you a ticket?
[00:29:29] Cindy: They gave me one day's ticket. One day. If you wanted to go for two days you had to pay. Yeah. And the only reason I said yes is because they... Okay, I got to host a dream panel on my ideal topics. So, it's a fundraising conference. Typically, my non-profit audience is not there. They're smaller, which is why ONM was a better fit. But for AFP, I pitched talking about consulting and building a consulting business, and I pitched a panel with three amazing women.
[00:30:05] Cindy: So I hosted the panel with my friend Emma Lucy, Betty Xie and Keana Palmer. And so it was a powerhouse panel, and so I wouldn't have applied to that conference, but that topic would fit with that audience for my business. I ended up also hosting a booth at their trade show, part of the conference that I shared with my friends at Agents of Good. And we ended up selling, we called it a book. No. And we sold my book, my friend John's book, and then a few other people who were self-published who don't typically have a presence. So while that, quote unquote "profitable," it felt really awesome to be there and take up that space and showcase other people's work.
[00:30:57] Cindy: Okay, so that's that. Then tomorrow... so tonight, I'm driving up to Kingston. It's like two and a half hours away to speak at their AFP conference. I think I get a small honorarium and I said I would only do that conference if it's content I already had and if they would pay my traveling accommodation.
[00:31:16] Cindy: So you can see it's all over the freaking map, right? Like there's no consistency. If I have to travel, I really am. I think there are one or two conferences that I would pay to be at, to speak at, but even that, it feels more like a vanity thing. Like, "I'd love to speak at IFC, I don't know if I ever will, but would I pay to be there?" Probably. I love the Netherlands. But other than that, I'm really getting a lot more that's called discerning about what I say yes and no to. I've been invited to other conferences within Canada that I've turned down because it would cost me like $1,500 just to be there. And there's other issues for some conferences around diversity. There's lots of other reasons I will say no. But, yeah. So there's no other rule.
[00:32:23] Jess: Of those four that you just spoke about, how many of those did you get invited to versus you applied to submitted an application to
[00:32:34] Cindy: I applied to one and I got invited to three.
[00:32:37] Jess: Okay. 'Cause I would argue that getting invited makes the decision a little easier because you're not going through that process of filling out one of those laborious applications and da da, da, da. And so, I think everyone has to decide for themselves what is... I just said this earlier, is the juice worth the squeeze? And you've been at this for seven plus years. You have an established audience. You're at a different phase than someone who's just getting started who might really want to put the effort into speaking on all of the stages just to build an audience.
[00:33:18] Cindy: How many virtual freaking conferences have I done? In the early days, especially like any tech company that would have me, I'd be like, "Please, please put me in front of your audience." So I get it. I don't go out asking for those anymore.
[00:33:34] Jess: Right? Yeah. You're at a different phase of your business, so you can really pick and choose. But I guess for anyone listening from someone who… to go back would definitely have put some effort into that in year one and year two and then reevaluated. And unfortunately, for me, I just skipped over that and so now I'm at this stage where I'm probably as choosy, picky, choosy when it comes to where I will and won't speak. But I know I just don't personally have a lot of the patience to do a lot of the... specifically the applications.
[00:34:13] Cindy: Yeah, yeah. Totally. Can I add---
[00:34:15] Jess: If they're unpaid .
[00:34:17] Cindy: Yeah. And that's like we get to be in control of our time, right?
[00:34:23] Jess: Yeah.
[00:34:24] Cindy: One thing I'll say, you just as you were talking, I thought of this and I think it's really important. One of the things that I have done to make speaking more worthwhile is make sure that when I do speak, especially if I'm not getting paid, almost always, if I'm not being paid, I have a call to action of a lead magnet.
[00:34:42] Jess: Yes.
[00:34:43] Cindy: So for example, now when I speak for nonprofits, I say, "You can access the first four chapters of my audio book for free. Here's where you put your email address," et cetera. When I speak to non-profit consultants, when I speak to consultants and coaches, I have a proposal template that they can download, but I do not speak for free unless I can share Lead Magnet
[00:35:06] Jess: Yeah, totally.
[00:35:07] Cindy: And I always, if I'm speaking for free, I always have something.
[00:35:11] Jess: This is also a little bit of a shameless plug, but when I was at the top of this year, I had Mackenzie, my community manager, put together a spreadsheet of like 63 podcasts specific to the nonprofit industry. Because I know for me, when we were getting started, just the searching of it all and like, "What's the contact information?" And da, da da da... You know, that was a lot of work before you even got to the place of pitching. So we can maybe put the link to that in the show notes. Yeah. If that's helpful and take at least maybe that one piece out of it for anyone wanting to do it.
[00:35:47] Jess: But I mean, I love podcasts. I listen to them almost exclusively compared to watching YouTube videos. I think in-person events are really coming back around with a free. So I could see in 2023, those being bigger and better than ever and probably applications for a lot of those events are happening now, now,
[00:36:12] Cindy: And it's gonna be more competitive though, so it'll be interesting, which takes us back to the idea of like, "How are you serving? How are you showing up for an audience?" It's not about you aren't always, it's framing it as like, "How do I help?" The organizers do their job a hundred percent.
[00:36:29] Jess: Yeah. I guess, how was I gonna word this question? Maybe we'll skip over it. Sorry. This is a terrible way to end a podcast. But I guess I was thinking like, how are you planning for 2023 and if now is the time to be doing that... yeah. What are you looking for?
[00:36:54] Cindy: Yeah, I mean, so going back to that question of like, "Are you tapping into someone else's audience or your own?" I mean, this is now my second podcast and I'd like to get to a point where the two podcasts, the one podcast is quite easy for me right now, but I wanna get a little bit ahead of the schedule generally with the podcasting, because we didn't talk about this but visibility is also with your audience and showing up consistently, which we're gonna talk about on a separate episode, but showing up consistently, working, being visible with your audience, I think is most important out of all.
[00:37:35] Cindy: And so, that is a bit of a priority because I actually have a lot of stuff happening in the spring and I'm not really applying to speak anywhere that I can think of, but like honestly, sometimes things just show up in my lap and that's great. So, I might do a couple podcast pitches once I get the rest of my shit together with all the things that are happening in my business. But, yeah...
[00:38:08] Cindy: And we can certainly talk for a minute about this is looking at building more affiliate relationships. So it's not the same thing as being on a stage, but from a visibility perspective, like actually leveraging other people's audiences and letting other people leverage my audience is something that I'm kind of...
[00:38:26] Jess: Yeah. Me too. Playing around with Enneagram three in me wants it to be perfect before we do it.
[00:38:34] Cindy: Oh, I think we're both. Okay. So fun fact, we're both the same.
[00:38:37] Jess: We're like the same except we're still different. It's so...
[00:38:40] Cindy: we're so different, but we have a lot of lies in common. And the same and I also---
[00:38:45] Jess: Including our birthdays.
[00:38:46] Cindy: Yeah. Our birthday, any year. I'm three. Do you know your Myers Briggs?
[00:38:51] Jess: I'm an ENFJ.
[00:38:53] Cindy: Okay. So I'm an ENTJ.
[00:38:55] Jess: What's the tea?
[00:38:58] Cindy: I dunno.
[00:38:59] Jess: 'Cause...
[00:38:59] Cindy: I'm awful?
[00:39:01] Jess: I don't think it's leftful.
[00:39:05] Cindy: You're an ENF.
[00:39:07] Jess: For feeler.
[00:39:08] Cindy: Feeling.
[00:39:08] Jess: I'm thinking, you're thinking.
[00:39:09] Cindy: I'm thinking. Thoughtful thinking. Yeah. I don't have emotions.
[00:39:15] Jess: Which is so nice, but I guess everyone should watch out because we are, too, literal same Scorpios.
[00:39:22] Cindy: Yeah.
[00:39:22] Jess: So don't cross us.
[00:39:24] Cindy: Don't cross us
[00:39:27] Jess: Even though people are always really surprised to find out I'm a Scorpio ‘cause I come off maybe as laid back but still, waters run deep, I guess. My mom's always like, "You are very intense." And I'm like, "Yes, I am."
[00:39:45] Jess: Anyway. Quick question just before we really wrap this up as this is a question that I think people were wondering about for. How important do you think it is to podcast hosts, conference speakers that you have an established audience? How much do you... like I can speak as a conference host, what matters to me, which is not that. I would rather have diversity.
[00:40:14] Cindy: Yes.
[00:40:14] Jess: Interesting... all those things above like...
[00:40:20] Cindy: Same.
[00:40:21] Jess: Because I see people saying unless you have an email list of 3000 people strong, you can't be a speaker at our event or whatever. And then it just goes to show that what comes first? Is that---
[00:40:32] Cindy: The wrong metric too? It's the wrong metric in my experience. So, A) like---
[00:40:37] Jess: Do you think conference organizers say yes more to you or invite you more because they know you have an established audience?
[00:40:44] Cindy: I think that one thing that I've seen is that some of the big ones, especially AFP, they like your speaker scores. So they wanna know how you've been rated in the past to see that you're a quality speaker. Again, it's a chicken and egg scenario because you can't get those scores unless you have the opportunity to speak. So I think that's an issue.
[00:41:07] Cindy: I wouldn't say audience size 'cause I actually don't have a big audience. But I think I am very niche and specific in what I talk about, and so that helps. Or when I get paid to speak from people who are already on my email list and stuff like that, that's a no brainer, right? They're my audience already.
[00:41:30] Cindy: So, I've seen more with speaker scores for the in-person conferences. For virtual, I don't know. But again, I don't think I have that [pay] of an audience, so I'm not quite sure. But I have strong relationships. So especially in Canada,' cuz I'm in Canada, Imagine Canada... Canada helps... you know, I have a lot of those relationships. So then when they're looking for someone for a virtual conference or like something like a webinar, like when COVID started, we did a bunch of webinars on like fundraising during COVID, that was kind of an easy... they just reached out because we had already worked together on so many things.
[00:42:14] Cindy: So that, yeah, that's been my experience. I definitely agree with you. So as a podcast host and as a podcast co-host, we never. Maybe when I launched my first podcast, I was like, "Who has a big audience?" But that's not a driving... Yeah, that is not even close to criteria that we look at, at all. At all, at all.
[00:42:40] Cindy: I don't actually... Yeah, we look for quality content and I'm trying to think if there's other... And when I look at other conferences, like I said, there have been ones that I've turned down speaking at, and I look at their speakers. And actually there are some, maybe you shouldn't say this, but there are some speakers that I feel like have been like... What's an appropriate way to say this? There's like an original generation of thought leaders in our sector. And some, I feel like are really, still relevant and some are less relevant.
[00:43:27] Cindy: And if I see too much of the big names that feel like so, so dominant in the space that they're not, there's not room for other people, I actually don't love that vibe and I don't say yes to those conferences.
[00:43:44] Jess: I think to end here, I just wanna underscore what I think you're saying is I think also when it comes to visibility, for anyone listening to be the type of person that speaks other people's names in a room full of opportunities that you could choose to have for yourself. And nothing makes me want to scream at people not doing that, it really makes my blood boil. And so when you... and in fact, I have a blog post coming out with a script because I practice what I preach all the time, which yes means visibility, opportunities, financial opportunities turned down. But I'm aware of my privilege enough to know that we got to lift up folks and the world and these conferences, and these podcasts are much more entertaining, educational, inspiring when we have a variety of voices.
[00:44:41] Jess: And so I know personally , it was so funny last week. This just goes to show that people are so wonderful in our sector and the importance of speaking other people's names because I got a ton of LinkedIn requests, friend requests last week because of the AFP thing happening in Toronto. I don't know who was whispering my name. I can shout out specifically, Sara HoshooleySarah Shuri who definitely connected me to one person, but I got way more invitations than I normally would. And I know it's because somewhere some people who are at that conference talked about me in some way, shape, or form, which is so generous and kind.
[00:45:24] Jess: Because I got the physical requests. Yeah, and I just think anyone listening to this that wants those invitations versus having to go pitch yourself means that it is your responsibility to also set aside your seat or speak and whisper other people's names when that makes the most sense. And it will come back to you a hundred percent
[00:45:46] Cindy: Mic drop. End of conversation.
[00:45:50] Jess: I know I got...
[00:45:50] Cindy: Thank you.
[00:45:51] Jess: On that last answer. I feel so strongly about it.
[00:45:54] Cindy: No, but that's why we're having this conversation too, because I do as well. Okay. I don't wanna… like that was such my job moment. But one of the things I will say is there are people who I have had conversations with where I continuously put forward other people as potential speakers and the like, and these are people... let's call it the conference host is like, "Yes, yes. I wanna. Please tell me who else and I wanna diversify." But we have all these the same, same, same, people speak every year for the last 50 years, even though obviously that's an exaggeration. "Who else should we be talking to?" And I will give them a list with email addresses like, "Here's people you should connect with."
[00:46:38] Cindy: And then two, three years later, there's no change in speakers. I'm like, "No. You haven't shown me that you walk the walk and I'm not interested in..." Why am I putting...? Anyways, that is a whole nother conversation but that is an opportunity for you to see the people who align with your values and who share commitment and yeah. It's really important, it's worth it.
[00:47:08] Jess: But it goes back to saying, I think that that's where I think showing up as your own thought leader. Going back to what you said about consistency, because I think, again, whether you are a nonprofit person looking to hire for services, or you are a conference host looking for speakers, it's hard to find you if you can't be seen. And so, it just goes back to, again, showing up as a thought leader so that people then can reach out and say, "Oh my gosh, I found that blog post," or that post. So thought provoking like, "We're doing this thing. Let's talk more." You know, it's hard to find you if you're not doing that work. So, yeah. Go forth and get visible. We'll cheer you.
[00:47:48] Cindy: Can I just... We will cheer you on. So, I was like in the back of my mind, thinking of a title for this episode, I heard the Olivia Newton John song, 'Let's get Physical.'
[00:48:00] You know what?
[00:48:00] Jess: Yeah.
[00:48:02] Cindy: Okay. So, if you're still listening to this episode--
[00:48:07] Jess: That I love.
[00:48:08] Cindy: That's why we're naming it, 'Let's get visible.' Visible...
[00:48:13] Jess: Yeah. Okay. Good. All right.
[00:48:15] Cindy: See you all next week.
[00:48:17] Jess: Bye.
[00:48:20] Cindy: Thank you again for listening to the Confessions Podcast for nonprofit coaches and consultants. If you enjoyed today's episode, which I sure hope you did, you can show your support in one of three ways.
[00:48:31] Jess: Number one, post the screenshot of this episode to your Instagram stories or LinkedIn profile and tag Cindy so we can repost you.
[00:48:39] Cindy: Number two, share this podcast with a fellow nonprofit culture consultant.
[00:48:44] Jess: And number three, leave a positive review on Apple Podcasts so that we can continue to grow and reach new listeners.
[00:48:50] Cindy: And of course, make sure you subscribe so you can get the latest and greatest interviews as they drop every Thursday.
[00:48:57] Jess: And to our fellow non-profit coaching and consulting friends, remember we're an open book and here to answer your burning biz questions.
[00:49:04] Cindy: See you next time.