Rebuilding, Redefining, and Thriving with Kishshana Palmer
“I went from really pulling this business out of the dirt and having a thriving business that was eclipsing a million dollars in revenue a year to wondering if I could make my mortgage payment. Let me call the mortgage company. That’s wild.” - Kishshana Palmer
Rebuilding, Redefining, and Thriving with Kishshana Palmer
How do you rebuild your business—and your confidence—when it feels like everything is falling apart? In this heartfelt and deeply personal episode, Jess and Cindy welcome back Kishshana Palmer, CEO of ManageMint, to share the real story behind her business reinvention. Kishshana doesn’t hold back as she opens up about the rollercoaster of running a million-dollar company, only to watch it all crumble in an unexpected moment. From struggling to pay her mortgage to using her savings to keep her team together, Kishshana takes us through the hard lessons she’s learned—and the inspiring way she’s climbing back up.
This conversation is for anyone who’s hit a rough patch in their consulting business and wondered if they’d make it through. Kishshana reminds us that resilience isn’t about bouncing back overnight—it’s about redefining what success looks like and prioritizing your well-being in the process.
Key Takeaways:
5 Key Takeaways:
Resilience in Business: Kishshana’s story is proof that even when life knocks you down, you can rebuild and come back with more clarity and focus.
Wellness Comes First: Taking care of your health—mentally and physically—isn’t just good for you, it’s a game-changer for your business too.
Protect Your Energy: Kishshana reminds us it’s okay to say “no” and step away from people or things that don’t align with your values.
Rebranding with Purpose: A fresh take on her business helped Kishshana attract the right clients and finally made her work feel aligned with her mission.
Leadership Done Right: It’s not about hustling harder—it’s about creating spaces where your team can thrive and everyone feels good showing up.
Timestamp summary:
[00:01:31] Introduction of Kishshana Palmer and updates since her last appearance on the podcast.
[00:03:14] Kishshana describes the exhaustion from constant travel and work and how it prompted her to reassess priorities.
[00:05:00] The challenges of scaling a business and the fallout from an unexpected professional setback.
[00:07:36] Kishshana opens up about the financial toll of keeping her business afloat during hard times.
[00:08:55] Kishshana’s renewed focus on helping women and queer people live well and lead well.
[00:12:00] The significance of Gen X leadership challenges, particularly for caregivers balancing multiple responsibilities.
[00:17:00] Kishshana discusses prioritizing her physical and mental health as a foundation for business success.
[00:28:29] How personal growth and re-evaluating relationships influenced her business decisions.
[00:32:01] Rebranding her business to ManageMint and the clarity it brought to her purpose and clientele.
[00:35:15] Kishshana describes how her team adapted to the new direction and embraced the focus on compassionate coaching.
[00:44:46] Advice on setting boundaries and saying “no” to protect energy and align with values.
[00:51:53] The trap of FOMO for consultants and how to reframe business networking with intention.
[00:54:15] Kishshana reflects on the role her purpose plays in sustaining her business and motivation.
[00:55:43] Kishshana’s confession
Find Us Online: https://www.confessionswithjessandcindy.com
Connect with Kishshana:
Kishshana’s Website: https://www.kishshanapalmer.com/
Busy Is a Four-Letter Word will be available on December 12, 2023. Pre-order your copy here: kishshanapalmer.com/book.
ManageMint’s Website: https://www.managemint.co/
Connect with Cindy:
Cindy Wagman Coaching: cindywagman.com
Fractional Fundraising Network: fractionalfundraising.co/
LinkedIn: ca.linkedin.com/in/cindywagman
Connect with Jess:
Out In the Boons: outintheboons.me
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jesscampbelloutintheboons/
Resources
Kar’s Sweet and Salty Trail Mix
Transcript:
re in the wilderness trying to get manna. Okay. and just with our little, our little five loaves.
[00:11:23] Okay. For those folks who know the and we made a commitment to each other, but honestly, they made a commitment to me and that they believe in the work that we are doing so much that we're all willing to put ourselves out on a limb because we know we're going to get back on our feet. And I didn't stop delivering excellence to the clients that I brought on.
[00:11:45] I really have to push myself to not act with desperation and take on, projects that I knew were not good for the company.I kept quiet when I didn't have anything good to say because y'all I was angry. Okay.and I was able to slow down enough to decide what the business really needs to do. And ultimately we are people powered change management practice.
[00:12:14] So, that's where I'm at. Yeah, first of all, I feel a little targeted in your description of Gen X. But, in the most loving way possible. I'm like, huh, it feels good to know it's not just me. huh. And, I mean, you mentioned this earlier. I think you mentioned this while we were recording earlier, if not right before, like, our generation is also in the throes of perimenopause, which is a whole other layer of not fun, like, pain in the ass.
[00:12:54] Just so, like, all of these things are happening and our bodies feel different to us. And it's all really hard. And, I really feel like you're speaking directly to me as like today I'm interviewing, VAs because I'm like. Let something go like I have to get help gotta get help. So, Yeah, I will pretend that it's not a personal attack It's not It's not a personal attack, but I would love let's dive into some of the things that you are that you've changed and that you're helping other people change because I do and I see this generationally where this little pocket of us, Gen X, I'm like, Xeniel, so I'm like that's the older generation.
[00:13:45] Yep, I'm right on that custom. Yeah, and, it's It's so ingrained in us. This, like, our value, our worth is wrapped into how hard we're working. That's right. And, it's really hard to let go. So, talk to us about what you've changed, and what you're helping other people do differently. So, first thing, y'all, I surround myself with people who don't think like me anymore.
[00:14:11] So my crew professionally and personally are go get a high powered, you know, take on more, let's do it. Let's kill it. The triple the goals, 10 X, the company did it, did it, did it, did it get the promotion. I mean, and that energy is infectious for me, but what was happening was that if, as I wasn't meeting what I thought were the expectations and meeting the mark, I started to feel worse and worse and worse.
[00:14:38] And it wasn't helping me to slow down enough in my mind to recalibrate. And so first I had to add some different folks to the table. Okay. So I had to move some folks out of the inner circle out to the, to the secondary and tertiary. That was thing one. So there's some folks I used to have on speed dial and I don't return to Texas anymore.
[00:14:58] You know, there's some folks who were like, did I do something to you? No, you did not. Did it to myself.and then I allowed myself to have to, to make space for new energy and new folks to enter my life. I do believe you can make friends as an adult. I am one of those people who meets people all the time.
[00:15:12] I'm like, what are You know, and I started to accept the idea that folks can be in your life for a season and I am shifting into a new season, not a new chapter for me. This is a new book and how you understood me before and how you understand and experience me now are not the same. So that first step was I had to get my community well being in check.
[00:15:37] So I'm off of any, I don't follow any sites, any accounts. I don't follow nothing. That's going to get my blood pressure up. Cause it's bad enough. I'm damn near in a cortisol bath every day. Okay. And for those of us who got a little pooch at the bottom of that belly, there's no amount of Pilates that I can do.
[00:15:56] That's going to get that pooch away. So it's surgery or getting folks who are stressing me out off my books, my personal books. And my professional books. So that was one of the things that I had to really like check in with myself and then check myself on. So I tackled my community wellness when well being first.
[00:16:18] Then I moved on to my physical well being. And when I think of physical well being, I think of your actual dwelling. Right. And then your actual vessel. And so for me, my house was an uproar since I moved. I had, you know, had the scammer contracted from hell. And I realized that so many of us get scammed and coming from a family where my dad and his friends are the handyman of life.
[00:16:39] And so I've never had to pay a person to do anything. So I was just out here. So I'm living in what felt like squalor. Okay. Dust everywhere. And when you start to live like that, and you are a neuro spicy adult who's used to everything being in order, color coded. Let me tell you what that does to you. It turns your whole mind inside out.
[00:17:00] So I focused on creating an environment where I didn't want to escape from.
[00:17:10] So now, so good. I'm starting to work on the dwelling, right? Like, so now the vessel needs some stuff, needs some care. Okay. Back to my pooch. So yes, I have looked up the hormone therapies and yes, I am now having to take the turmeric shots. For real, for real, as opposed to because culturally I've always done it.
[00:17:30] Now I'm looking at my liver, and going to the urologist, and the nephrologist, and the dysiologist, and I'm looking at my bone density, and my mammograms, and the y'all, I used to look at my mom, I don't know if this happened to y'all, but I used to look at my mom and my aunts like, y'all doing a lot at the doctor, like what is happening there all the time?
[00:17:47] Why is the appointment every week? And now I realize one of the things as a business owner that many of us do not do, we do not prioritize or understand or believe that the longevity and the health of our business is directly tied to our ability to take care of ourselves. So that preventative care is so critical to having a healthy business.
[00:18:14] Particularly when, if you're like me, you are the brand, right? Okay. I don't even think I can have this conversation anymore. No, no, it's so good. I like literally have on my desk, blood work requisition. Now tell her about everything. I also tease her cause she's in her tech era. Show her your ring. Show her your water bottle.
[00:18:39] And I'm doing another one called alter where they do a workout type. Based on your blood type and all that kind of stuff and look at your genomes and whatever. And people are like, are you not scared about your DNA? I'm like, the government got all my stuff. They have everything anyways. All my things are being tracked.
[00:18:55] Yeah. but it's, and like, It's so fascinating. It's so fascinating watching all the things and the cycle and my stress. 'cause that, that pooch again, like literally everything you say, I'm like, Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . and I have been good about working out and strength printing because bone, bone density problems in my family, but all the other things I'm like.
[00:19:25] Shit. You see me girl. So yeah, it's, it's hard. It's, it's really hard. And I love, like your advice is so practical and it's still hard. So hard. Right. Like, so let me not pretend like I have gotten all this right. Like it is. It's true that I have written a book and I would like to say, you know, my mama said is real dope.
[00:19:50] It is a page turner and when you're old, older, seasoned West Indian parent gives you a compliment from that generation, you better take that thing to the bank.
[00:20:00]
[00:20:05] Okay, we are back for another round of rapid fire questions. You ready to play? All right, I would love for you to tell the listeners as a new resident of Atlanta, what's one thing that you are pleasantly surprised to discover, find out, experience, and what's one thing you didn't expect? one thing that I didn't expect is that Atlanta is not a real place.
[00:20:33] that is something that if you, if you just Google it, it's actually pretty funny. things that happen here, I'm always like, now what, you know, like that, that can't be real. so for example, y'all paying for parking in the parking lot of the place that you're going into to eat that the people who own the place on the parking lot, but you still have to pay for the parking.
[00:20:51] Before you go in. Yeah. All right. things that I was pleasantly surprised at. There's a heck of a nightlife and just, or an activity life. And so whatever type of life you want to live, or you want to be outside with the bees and the leaves and the trees, there's tons of stuff to do. Oh, you want to be a for real city dweller?
[00:21:09] Tons of cultural things to do. are you just all about your family? Tons of stuff to do. and I did not expect that because coming from New York, you know, I was like, there's nothing like New York. This is a whole different flavor and, but definitely presently surprised at the breadth. Of things that you can, you can do.
[00:21:26] Oh, I love that. Atlanta's on my list. There's so many non profit consultants, in the Atlanta and Atlanta surrounding areas and you're motivating me more than ever. Confessions roadshow. Yeah, for real. okay. My next question is so your daughter has gone off to college, and so I'm curious at what's been your experience as a quote unquote empty nester.
[00:21:50] Although I'm sure she comes home and visits and she's not really going home last year. So she's a sophomore now. I think I'm having I think I miss her more now than I did when she left. So her first year of college, I was like, ah, great. Now I'm like, hello, is it me you're looking for? Like yesterday we were on the phone for like three hours doing, I don't know what, and we talk every day anyway, but I miss my kid now more than I ever have.
[00:22:14] and that's because I'm seeing her blossom into this beautiful young woman. you know, she talks to me differently. I am having to step away from the being mommy manager, to mommy advisor, mommy coach, mommy observer. you know, When I met my partner and I realized we'd be getting serious. She must've had a conversation with him, my birthday gift or whatever.
[00:22:32] She was like, I'm just trying to help you win, sir. and she said, but I know she did that. And she sent me a text message, like, that's a good man, Savannah. Don't self sabotage and mess this up, you know? So I think of what I have done to give her runway to be the human that she is growing into, and I'm really, really proud of her.
[00:22:55] I love that so much. I'm so glad she's doing so well too. Alright, and last question as submitted by the one and only Cindy Wagman. You mentioned that you are very into your vessel, nurturing your vessel, your physical body. And one of the things you do is, focus on that protein intake and so everyone is probably curious as to what some of your favorites are.
[00:23:22] Brands included, please, because if someone has just tried like to make protein shakes in the morning, I am very disappointed, but I suck it down. So protein shakes, I like Ahaba. A H A B A. I'm like, I should pitch them to be a brand sponsor, but anyway, I'm looking at my, on my fridge right now in my office.
[00:23:45] I like power crunch. That's the brand.I'm always going to do a Chobani, what'd you call it? Protein yogurt, because they just taste good. I'm this, this new brand called, well, not new to me, man. I think it's called Ken's. I'm looking at right now, Ken's sweet and salty, like trail mix. and then I just started making a lot more myself and don't get me wrong, y'all.
[00:24:05] I still eat my Ridges plain potato chips and oh my gosh, Cindy, I ordered it from Toronto because there's an all dressed potato chip by Heinz and anybody who was born and, and, or raised in the eighties should understand this, okay? It is a combination of barbecue potato chips plus salt and vinegar, okay?
[00:24:26] Some of them have a little ranch. Do you not have all dressed there? No. No, one of the supermarkets is just starting to do it on the East Coast. So no, but I surely did order it. I will bring you some if we do road show in Atlanta, I'll bring some chips. I love it. It was just a couple of brands, but I still sneak in my snacks y'all.
[00:24:49] Okay. I'm human. Hello. Yeah. Okay. I love it. And thank you for playing.
[00:24:55]
[00:24:59] so one of the things I tried to do was to say, can I design something that I can replicate if I fall off the course. So this book is not about finding your way to perfection.
[00:25:12] Perfection is for suckers. Okay. So let's just let that go. This is about taking things off your plate so that you can actually do more and be more and achieve more because many of us know how to do. We don't know how to be back to that identity. Sending you talk about like, you know, our job is our identity, but sure.
[00:25:32] So I'm not telling y'all to get rid of none of that. What I'm saying is there is a way that we can reorient. The things that we have learned, the things we believe, the things that we're conditioned to do and to understand for this season of our life. So we can take back control of our life. Our life is getting away from us.
[00:25:51] And for anybody who was running their own practice, who's thinking about hanging out their shingle, who wants to scale and grow, don't do a darn thing about that. And this is from a hard experience. This is from the medical bills that will show you that you better not do none of that until you have got your wellness plan together.
[00:26:09] And I talk about how to design that as well in my book. So you heard me mention community health and you've heard me mention, your physical health. Your mental health. There was a part of time, you know, a bit of time where I couldn't afford a therapist. And when I lived in on the East coast, you know, they had a dope entrepreneurs plan for solopreneurs and small companies of the 10 employees.
[00:26:32] So we had the good, good. and I was excited. I moved South and that is not the case. So I was like, all right, well, I can't even really afford this slide scale. So I said, okay, I'm gonna go back to my notes. I'm gonna use my journal and I'm gonna do, I'm gonna reread the last couple of years. Y'all did not help me.
[00:26:48] I need to be talking to somebody regularly and deciding how I'm going to talk to myself. And so I always talk about like, you know, you're the person who's whispering on your shoulder and I named mine. Okay. So Tina been with me a long time. She is the protector. She's the man eater. She's the one who's going to go out there and get the bag.
[00:27:10] It's not really me, but Tina is real reckless. And so she talks to me all type of ways. And for years, I would do things outwardly in response to not wanting to be found out. That I didn't want to do it, that I didn't want to be there, that I didn't want to show up for that, that I actually don't care about that.
[00:27:31] So imagine me telling my mom, y'all this week, she's telling me something about some relative who I don't really know. And I was like, mom, I don't care. I just don't care. I don't know these people. This is not even gossip. It's not even good gossip. I don't care. And she was like, uh, uh, uh. So. That mental wellness and well being, super critical, and it looks different for each of us, but it's the thing that we have got to see as a responsibility to take control of.
[00:28:07] Yes, I see you got it. Well, I'm like, and it's all tied, right? Like, it's like a circle. And, and it's, and it's all tied. And so, I mean, one, I'm curious, like how long this evolution has taken you. And I know it's an ongoing journey, but I'm, I'm just curious, like from when you recognize that something really need to change to today, like what's that timeline.
[00:28:29] And then I'm just curious, like how you've coupled that with the business, decisions you've made, because it looks very different today. And. As I mean, like some things that you've really said that have just like clicked is like how difficult it is to say no, how difficult it is to not be basically addicted to the hustle and the achievement and the, the recognition.
[00:28:52] And I mean, you, especially you really do have this fan base. And that's addictive. Like that feels good. And so I'm just curious how these, you can say that they're more on the personal side, like the mental wellbeing and the physical wellbeing, but they're all greatly tied to your, your business wellbeing.
[00:29:14] And I'm just curious what like that looks like today. Sure. So one, I started to I started to say something has got to change. in 2022, I was supposed to go on a retreat. I'm supposed to be taking off some time, and my back went out when I was packing my bag and I couldn't walk for a week. And my mom had to help me use the bathroom.
[00:29:34] I was really overweight. and for me, I was, I had never gotten into or out of body positivity or diet culture or whatever. I was just like, look, you do what you do. I'm gonna do what I do. and I'm cute at every size that year. That wasn't working for me. My body was like, yeah, mess around. If you want to, we're going to sit you right down.
[00:29:52] And so I made the decision to, and I'm not sure if I can talk about this. I made the decision to have surgery, after eight months of doing all the testing, all the stuff, and I'm an active person who worked out five days a week. So this is not like some lazy way out, nor did I air quotes look like.
[00:30:09] The person who would need to have any kind of weight loss surgery. But I made this bet. I was hedging that if I dropped this weight, then it would keep me healthy enough long enough to get back into my exercise, to not injure, to not be discouraged, to change my eating patterns. And it did. And it did.
[00:30:27] Right. But I made a commitment before I ever had the surgery that I something had to give.so that was thing one, believe it or not, losing all that weight, maybe more depressed. Yeah, y'all, because now I'm getting on a plane, I fly every week, right? I'm getting on a plane, all of a sudden, gentlemen are rushing to put stuff up for me.
[00:30:45] You know, all of a sudden I'm getting all the stairs and oh my God, you're so beautiful. And, but the, but the, but what's not beautiful last week, you know? So you would think that I would have made me feel real good about myself. No, I was like, well, hell was I invisible before. And so I had to contend with that.
[00:31:02] It showed up in my business. So now how I'm able to merge those things together. So when it comes to our physical space, Your office has to be lit. I don't care where your office is. I don't care if it's a bedroom. I don't care if it's a corner in the dining room. I don't care if you got a coworking space that you got to bring your setup every day to whatever the it is.
[00:31:22] The space where you spend six to eight hours a day ought to feel like home for you. Not like you stopping in. So that's thing one. Thing two, I made sure that was the same for my team. What do y'all need to feel comfortable in your space where you are? We are a virtual team. What do you need? How much is that?
[00:31:40] Almost anything. No questions asked. And if they move on, guess what? They move on comfortable. Okay. So really making sure that that was clear was what I did for like that physical part of the business. Then I changed our name. I realized that I didn't want my name to be associated with the company in the way that it had been before.
[00:32:01] Because honestly, the only reason my name wasn't the way it was is because the marketing firm that helped me years ago was like, did you know your name is highly Googleable? And I was like, and that was how the shining. So management. is really about taking a, having a fresh take on management and leadership, which is something I've been talking about since 2016.
[00:32:21] And I just finally did something about the shift as opposed to think about the shift, convection about the shift, right about the shift. Now I just did the shift. I didn't announce it. I didn't have a rollout. It was like grand opening. And you went to cashonico. com and it was like, hello, welcome to the new home.
[00:32:39] That was it. Done and done. And believe it or not, what I saw was that the kind of clients that we're getting, the kind of business development I'm able to do now looks completely different.I'm able to say we do compassionate coaching. Right. And they're like, what is that? I'm like, well, because I don't believe in burning people to get to the outcome.
[00:32:59] I believe that some people have will and some people have skill challenges, but most of us are operating in skills, not talents or gifts. And so if that's the case, then folks are stuck. Let's help you get unstuck. Right. That if you're going to do a retreat, let it be a break. And not a fancy meeting with, with food, you know, right.
[00:33:19] So those are just a couple of ways that I did that. Right. and has your client shifted, for example, I mean, Cindy, and I know you from being in the nonprofit sector and The things that you were not talking about and teaching about are very cross sector applicable. And so has your, you know, customer shifted, are you working with all people from all different industries or are you still focused on the nonprofit sector or what does that look like?
[00:33:50] Yeah. So we're, we're industry agnostic.what we are offering folks is a way to slow their heart rates. While they are meeting and exceeding their business goals,
[00:34:05] a return to some level, even if it's lowercase, some level of loyalty between team members and their employers that managers see it as their responsibility and their honor to set up their team members, to lead them that employees see their roles as the work and their purpose in that season. And that they want to execute that with excellence, that they choose whether they're taking this job because mama is sick and they need to, they need to send money home or they are saving up to move abroad or anything in between, that they are crystal clear about where their life is in this moment so that they could show up fully to where their work is in this moment.
[00:34:51] And I don't think that there are a whole lot of leadership practices doing that. For sure. So talk to us about, you said that you, I think you said people come to the website, it's a different website. It's like grand opening. There's no rollout, there's no launch. And so how present day are people connecting with you and finding you and knowing that you are offering this?
[00:35:15] Is it word of mouth? Is it, doing, you know, interviews like this on podcasts? Like. People don't know what they don't know, right? And so how do they know that this is the new direction you are working towards? So we did a couple of things. One, we sent out a series of emails to my list, to everybody that was in my business contact list.
[00:35:36] That we were shifting over and we knew that some of that would go into spam because it's a new company, right? And some of that would just go into the abyss. So we changed all of our outgoing emails to say, hello, we've moved. Here's what you need to do. and then on our socials, we did the same. and I, since I speak so much and I am on a lot of podcasts, like I, that is my form of business development.
[00:35:58] And I realized that getting having an easy layup for folks to engage with us before they need to engage with us, was really helpful and folks been able to say this is what this company does. And it was such a shift from, I don't know what Kashana does. I mean, she's super smart. She does everything too.
[00:36:13] Oh, management. They do management and leadership. You know, that is their, their change management practice firm. So if it has to do with change and people, hello, pick up the phone. And that was a lot easier going into the new year. We're going to put some money, beyond behind ad spending, but all of the type of digital ad spending over the last 18 months has been really wonky across any industry.
[00:36:37] And so I just decided that it wasn't worth The, the, the revenue that we had coming in to pour into that, that way. And so I have not been doing that. so yeah, so referrals, direct outreach and this being in these sort of like digital communication highways and byways,
Marker
[00:36:56] I want to ask about. So first of all, you have so much clarity around what you do and how you serve now.
[00:37:05] And I think your business name is so aligned to that. It's all like, it all fits together like a beautiful puzzle. And, I know people struggle with personal brand versus business versus, and you talked a little bit about that already, which is like, you know, almost like, again, building that, that fan base where it's like people followed you but didn't necessarily know what you did or, or hired you for the other reasons.
[00:37:40] So talk to, talk to us a little bit about that transition and that change. And where that clarity came from, like, did you work with anyone around messaging? You did, like, it just fell into place. And did that come from some of like the alignment around the other stuff that you've been doing? So I have the gift of having a sister who is a brand like guru is not even the best word.
[00:38:11] Like what's beyond that? And she did my brand in 2016. and she built a brand that was durable. So if you look at what management looks like, it actually pulls some of the blues from Kishshana and co. So my color palette for my personal brand has never changed. We just up and down the hues of saturation because color tells people what you want them to feel.
[00:38:35] Right. And so my personal brand is like me. It is bright and happy and colorful and busy and all the things because that's who I am. my company brand is soft and steady and spotlight and easy and comforting all those things that my clients have said that they had experienced with me and consultants who've worked alongside me.
[00:39:01] But wasn't really effectively communicated when my personal brand and the company brand were all the same, but I pulled from that main brand. So Rochelle and her team were phenomenal in helping me to redo that. So Rose Red, et cetera, is the team that helped me work. On that work. and I just, I had the gift in that, right.
[00:39:24] I introduced her to working in the nonprofit sector and that's now she's pivoted her business. So that's mostly what she does, which is amazing because she is taking on some big dogs. Some, some of the bigger legacy organizations as a client and is killing it. and I had the benefit of watching her grow and growing alongside her.
[00:39:43] So I basically learned from the best because I'm a writer. It wasn't that hard for me to write, but the delivery of the visual of the brand came from one of my team members, Alicia Fitch, who she just gifted. I don't know how to explain it. Rochelle was her mentor. she had been on her own since she graduated from undergrad.
[00:40:02] she wanted to come in house cause she didn't want to have her own business anymore, which is a reasonable choice at any time in your business. and I told her, do what you do. I'm getting out of the way. Okay, now I have like so many different questions, because I actually, like you mentioned that it's a reasonable choice to go back in house, and I feel like that is a worthwhile conversation, but I also want to hear about your team, so I'll let you pick, where we start.
[00:40:36] I'll do both. So, it is no secret that my director of operations is the, the brains behind this business. we are three full time team members. We used to be at six full time team members. we have six part time consultants who all have their own, full time jobs. two of the six actually are consultants and they're solo practitioners who don't necessarily want to grow.
[00:40:59] They just want to work with me and I wanted to work with them. And so I pulled them in as necessary. I work from a values out perspective. So I started with what do we believe in and what will we go to war over? And then what are the goals and the outcomes that we are can set and are seeking that our values amplify, activate and accelerate.
[00:41:23] So life makes everything rock. I don't think there's been a soul who's had a bad experience with life. Okay. They're like, we don't want to talk to you. We talked to her and I'm like, excellent. That is the way I like it. So I do whatever she wants. Alicia is phenomenal. She's a gifted creative. She gets to learn how to now be in a small company.
[00:41:43] And sometimes I'm a hot mess express y'all. And so there just has to be a lot of vulnerability and honesty and willingness to come back to the table with your team and to try again and to call it when it's not right to be able to sustain. And in my case, to have to rebuild. So that we can get ready to grow again.
[00:42:04] so that is sort of like that internal team. I don't know if I'm going to ever be some massive practice. I kind of like the idea that I can, I know everybody's birthday. I know the children, the husbands, the anniversaries that our company calendar is actually built around the days we actually need off and not federal holidays.
[00:42:20] that we sit down every December and decide what we're going to do for the rest of next year. And last year, they're only asked of me because we know we need to rebuild no new toys.
[00:42:34] And so every time I was like, y'all, I haven't, I did the number of nodes. If I sent y'all a screenshot of our Slack and just put the word no in the search bar. I can't shout out like, I was like, so I was thinking life comes back. No, you know, I was wondering if I should, Alicia. Nope. So, you know, guys, I was saying about the, no.
[00:42:58] But like how amazing that you do and we all do right and I was just thinking what a gift to surround yourself which is actually a question I have yeah, like that you all have this level of trust with one another that they feel comfortable saying that to their boss and you feel comfortable and trust them enough to know that they are saying no with the best intention, with like the most meaningful intention because like you all agreed on a north star and by you having these different directions that is going to veer attention in all the things away from that.
[00:43:38] I want to ask you, I wrote this down, I, you mentioned this at the top, and I think that everyone needs to like turn up the volume on this next part. Because I think who you surround yourself with matters so much. So much. And I thought it was really interesting that you said that you had to essentially like cut some people off.
[00:44:03] I think you even like, whether it was literal or figuratively, like there's people you don't text back now kind of thing. Like, okay.
Energy
[00:44:12] Like how and who do you decide to access your energy? What does that look like in present day? any advice for our listeners who are like, yes, people and they're very uncomfortable saying no to everything from like an opportunity to a coffee chat to potential work that might not be aligned to signing up for the PTA to driving the carpool, like
[00:44:46] like, especially we know that a majority of people that listen to this are working moms. We know that moms are like tired is not a strong enough word. You are a working mom who is more evolved than I'm guessing a lot of our listeners, including Cindy and myself. But I really think that who you surround yourself with is, is one of the starting components to like making it all possible.
[00:45:13] Yeah. So. If I can, y'all can indulge me for a second. One of the things I had to realize was that I am a, you know, I know y'all know this, but maybe I read it, you know, I'm a black woman. Okay. Most hated species in the world, but it's fine. so the way I show up in the world, it's not fine just for the record.
[00:45:30] It's not fine, but air quotes, air quotes, air quotes.right. But also just to let y'all know, one of the things I realized about myself is that because I'm Caribbean, there's a lot of things that I grew up with that are just a matter of fact that don't bother me in the way some of my black American friends are totally bothered.
[00:45:48] because they were just like, well, that's just the way that is, as opposed to that's an injustice. Like it doesn't, it didn't pierce me in the same way. And so I really have to access a different level of empathy, around certain things that don't bother me in the ways that I'm like, I think it should be more, I should be more bothered by this.
[00:46:03] But so I'll just say that as an aside, when you hear me say that, that is fine. So one of the things I had to recognize is that. I had my, I had a long 15 minutes. You hear me? My 15 minutes were years. And so when I started to realize that there was a new it girl or two or three or four on the block, my feelings was hurt.
[00:46:23] She's like, wait a minute, how do I get played out? And why am I not growing faster? Or when some of my closest contemporaries businesses started, who are, who are white, businesses grew faster, took on more clients, we're earning the same speaking fees that I was after I busted my behind to do that. And they were getting that in their first 10 speaking to get like, mind you, some of them just took my advice and then it just works.
[00:46:45] Right. but. Can y'all imagine the kind of like, what in the whole hell? And so I had to fight every instinct to go harder. I had to say to myself, why do you want to get invited to that conference? Do you even like those people? So to just, so now this is the question I'm asking myself is the advice I'm giving to all my folks, especially my high achieving people, pleasing front of the line.
[00:47:11] What's class president always gets first on deck. Well, if I'm gonna be here, I'm gonna be first. Mamas, aunties, godmamas, and everybody in between. So, a lot of times, we really, our FOMO is fake. Our fear of missing out is actually bull. Okay, I call bull. Cause you know you don't want to get dressed and leave the house for that nonsense.
[00:47:31] So one of the things that I have to start to do was do that real check in girl. Do you really care? Like a number for real? And a lot of times y'all, I'd be like, nah, I don't really care. Did that mean that the squishiness in my belly and the over explaining went away overnight? No, I still over explained.
[00:47:51] Okay. I just said, that's the part of who I am, child. You know, you gotta, you gotta just take it while you take it. But my ability to be like, Hmm, looks good for them. Okay. Has greatly improved shout out to my daughter. Who that is her whole personality. If I wasn't invited, you know what I mean? I wasn't there.
[00:48:10] And I just thought to say, what does this darn teenager have more sense than some of these grown folk I'm surrounding myself with. So that was thing one. Some folks, I gave them the advanced notice. I love you, but you're not gonna see me that much longer. And period paragraph, just, this is not the first time I've done this.
[00:48:28] I did this my second year of college. When I realized and y'all I'm one of the privileged ones who had a cell phone in college. Okay, when the minutes was minute in and it was very expensive. I know, I know I had a cell phone. I did my stuff, my minutes after seven is when you called me. And I remember coming home for winter break.
[00:48:46] And realizing that I hadn't heard from a whole lot of folks, I'm pulling the house phones. I haven't heard from you. This is going to be the last time you hear from me. And y'all do, you know, out of all my call, only one friend, and I'm still friends with her to this day said, hold on, hell are you talking about?
[00:49:01] So that's sort of like extreme type of behavior. I'm sure there's a whole therapy session that we can talk about. It's part of my drive, right? That's why I'm successful. I can be laser focused. I can go all in on something, but it's also what he'll be over the cliff. And I realized I was hanging out over a cliff in these friend circles of people I did not like, who did not like me, who were really just trying to ride my coattails, steal my shine, take my shine.
[00:49:30] And I was working my ass off, for relationships that it, I perceived they were getting with ease. I wanted out of all of it. I realized that once I just stopped responding or I stopped being the one to initiate, nobody was calling me no way. So I want folks to really take a beat and be like, go to your, go through your text messages for those of us who keep our text messages and look at the last 12 months.
[00:49:58] Look at the folks that you actually have to be the one to initiate all the time. Cut them first. Look at the folks that take three, four, five days to return your text message. Cut them second. Anybody who falls into those first two categories when they invite you to stuff, thank you so much for inviting me.
[00:50:13] I'm unavailable. Done.
[00:50:20] Okay. So good.
[00:50:25] Little church session. Cause I'm sitting here and I'm like, I don't have FOMO. Like I couldn't, Yeah, Jess, you're a circle. Like, Jess, I need more of you in my friend circle, right? Cause that's a good example to set. Yes. And that's what I want to talk about is like, so how do we show up for others and role model the kinds of people we need in our lives so that we're also attracting those people Because I mean literally as we're having this conversation like today is a stressful day for me my heart rate like well, you mentioned a little while ago, like, you know, the, that elevated heart rate.
[00:51:14] That is like a hundred percent me today. And I'm not usually like that, but I'm in this season and I don't want to be that way. So how do we, how do we show up for, cause I also think like our, how we show up for others invites in the energy that we want for ourselves. So what are some ways that we can be that person who elevates others, who is authentic, who doesn't buy into the FOMO because just I'm sorry, but like so many consultants I talk to that is such a huge part of their experience of like I need to be here.
[00:51:53] I need to be there all these people are like hanging out and they're all friends and i'm not friends with them and i'm missing out like that shows up huge for people so especially at the beginning like especially when people are just getting started like it's it's pretty aggressive and they think that we're all like there's like this insider clique and like maybe there is but I don't think any of us want there to be so how do we start to show up ourselves differently in a way that creates that new reality so I think a couple of things you said so number one you got to have somebody like Jess you corner who's like So I have Rochelle and a couple of other really good girlfriends who are just, they are just largely unbothered and their lack of bother makes me wonder about my bothered so I can bother less.
[00:52:51] Y'all see? All right. So sometimes I will roll an idea by her because her response Well, let me know if I once again do it too much. And so until I could learn to calibrate for myself that doing too much meter, I was really fortunate to have a friend who could help me calibrate. So the FOMO and the having to be everywhere, if I had to do this again, one of the things I would have done when I think I've told you this before, I would have started a business with a partner.
[00:53:20] so that's thing one. Thing two, why do you want to be in business and to what end? Many of us, me included, could not answer that question. The reality of the situation is if management went away tomorrow, I would not change how I move in purpose. And so when I realized my gifting isn't shifting the lives of people.
[00:53:47] Folks, particularly women and queer folk, like once I realized that was it. Oh, we just need to go hard in the paint. Also the reality of, so you want me to give up this one thing that I know makes money for this thing that may could make money shoot. And so I figured, let me show this thing up first. The thing that I know is going to survive without me so that I have the freedom to focus on the thing that I can do like breathing.
[00:54:15] So I think for consultants who are thinking about that, if you have not answered, why are you going into practice and to what end do not go? so sadly we, we have to wrap up this conversation. It's going to be the first one to buy your book.
[00:54:33] Then it's all my clients too. But the whole, the whole conversation is literally what I talk about in my book. And for those of y'all who are Golden Girls fans. And the others who are different world plans, it's all up there. So I have lots of stories, anecdotes, and just ways of things that we can relate to about how we look at our community and how we look at our finances and how we look at our leadership and how we look at how we take care of our homes and ourselves.
[00:55:02] and a lot of those lessons I learned from the Golden Girls. So,that is what we do. We're young. They were like in there. They were so young. they're in their 50s, I think. Yeah, which is crazy. Anyways, so I want you to play your book. And then we have to ask for a confession, even though I feel like this whole session's been a confession.
[00:55:24] I know. So, start with a confession and then we'll go into where people can get your book and connect with you. Okay. I confess that more days than not, I do not want to run my business anymore.
[00:55:43] Honest. Yeah. And those days, I mean, I want to ask how you Hmm, there's a whole other conversation here. Okay, for the sake of time, I'm not going to ask a follow up question because that could take us, like I said, that could be a whole other conversation. So I will bite my tongue on that one and Kishshana tell our listeners where they can get their hands on their book, on your book, their copy of your book and, connect with you more.
[00:56:15] Absolutely. Absolutely. So www. kishshanapalmer com. Dot com forward slash book. Easy, busy. it's on all the bookstore. org on Goodreads. It's on all the places. So wherever your favorite independent bookseller is, there you will find me, the books will be released on December 12th. And if you purchase an advanced copy, then you get to come to the book release party with me.
[00:56:40] we'll have tons of speakers and prizes and all the good stuff. So I love that. And then to connect with my company, manage mint, M I N T. Dot C O. So we put a fresh take on management and leadership. and those are the places you can catch me. I'm Kishshana Palmer and all social. So wherever you hang out, I'm probably there at some point.
[00:56:58] I love it. Thank you so much. This was, this was, I feel like just the conversation I needed to hear on this particular Wednesday, as we were recording this, and we just appreciate your honesty, openness, and vulnerability as always. So I appreciate you. Ditto. Love you guys. Love you guys.