Navigating Identity and Purpose in Nonprofit Leadership with Rowena Veylan
"It's like our journey of fundraising. You get a lot of silence and you get a lot of no's, but that one that you get and that person and what it means to them, it's just magic. And I think that's how the school functions as well. " - Rowena Veylan
Navigating Identity and Purpose in Nonprofit Leadership with Rowena Veylan
On this week’s Confessions podcast, we had an inspiring conversation with Rowena Veylan, founder of The New School of Fundraising. Rowena shared her journey to launching a nonprofit consulting business in the midst of COVID-19 and her vision for empowering community leaders through accessible education.
Highlights:
Embrace possibility and abundance, even when times seem uncertain. Rowena started her business during the pandemic after seeing a gap she could fill. Focus on relationships, not transactions.
Build a business model focused on impact, not profits alone. Rowena partners with funders to make her programs nearly barrier-free for nonprofits. Her “uncommon education for community crusaders” motto says it all.
Forge your own path. Rowena didn’t wait for permission or the “right” circumstances. She sent hundreds of emails to get her first clients and learned perseverance pays off. Her story inspires us to create the life and business we want.
Connect with Rowena Veylan
The New School of Fundraising: https://nsof.ca/
Mediate BC: https://www.mediatebc.com/
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/rowena-veylan
Find Us Online: https://www.confessionswithjessandcindy.com/
Connect with Cindy:
Cindy Wagman Coaching https://cindywagman.com/
The Good Partnership https://www.thegoodpartnership.com/
Connect with Jess:
Out In the Boons: https://www.outintheboons.me
Transcript:
00:00:00: Cindy: Welcome to the Confessions podcast. I'm Cindy Wagman.
00:00:03 Jess: And I'm Jess Campbell. We're two former in-house nonprofit pros turned coaches and consultants to purpose-driven organizations.
00:00:11 Cindy: After years of building up our separate six-figure businesses from scratch, we've thrown a lot of spaghetti at the wall and have lived to see what sticks.
00:00:20 Jess: We're on a mission to help other nonprofit coaches and consultants looking to start or scale their own businesses past the six-figure mark by pulling back the curtain.
00:00:30 Cindy: Whether you're still working inside a nonprofit and thinking of one day going out on your own, or you've been running your consulting business for years, you understand that working with nonprofits is just different. We're giving you access to the business leaders who serve nonprofits as their clients. You know, the people who truly get it.
00:00:52 Jess: No more gatekeeping, no more secrets. This podcast is going to give you an inside look at what running a successful nonprofit coaching and consulting business looks like. Basically, we're asking people how much money they make, how they get paid, and what has and hasn't worked in their businesses.
00:01:10 Cindy: Listen in as these leaders share their insights, their numbers, and the good, the bad, and the ugly when it comes to building a nonprofit coaching or consulting business. We're going to empower you to make the power moves that give you the income and freedom you set out to create from day one.
00:01:27 Jess: You ready? Let's go.
00:01:32 Cindy: Hey, Jess.
00:01:33 Jess: Hi, Cindy.
00:01:35 Cindy: Welcome, listeners. We have such a great guest for you today. We are going behind the scenes of the new School of Fundraising Business with Rowena Veylan. And Rowena's business, I would say, is one of those COVID babies that came out of everyone re-evaluating things and moving online. So let's just dive in. Rowena, tell us a little bit about your business.
00:02:05 Rowena: Oh, well, thank you for having me here. My fundraising school and how it started is one of my favorite conversations to be had. So I will start off by saying I am grateful to join you guys from the beautiful lands of the Coast Salish people here in North Vancouver, and that is home to the Musqueam, Tsleil-Waututh, and Squamish nations. I'm forever grateful for their stewardship of the land. As I look out my window at beautiful mountains every day. And I'm on a journey with my daughter to learn more about the traditional surroundings around me as well.
00:02:40 Rowena: So the new School of Fundraising, yes, it was a COVID baby. Our motto is Uncommon Education for Community Crusaders. And I just feel I had worked in the nonprofit industry for a long time. And I just saw a gap in what was offered. A lot of great education opportunities but I just felt like fundraising was like everyone's best kept secret. And it's not hard, we're not brain surgeons and so I just saw an opportunity to roll something out online. I had been teaching for many, many years at many different programs and people would say to me, like, would you do online things? And in our industry with relationships, I was like, are you crazy? No, I would never do online things. It has to be in person. And then COVID hit, as you said, Cindy, and the world opened up to this Zoom world we live in and it took the opportunity to open the school.
00:03:40 Cindy: Amazing. And tell us a little bit about our favorite question. How you get paid? So what do you offer and what services do you provide?
00:03:52 Rowena: Well, the getting paid part is very interesting to me. My husband said to me, okay, so you're going to open a fundraising school in the middle of a pandemic that people have to pay to go to, but the people who need to go don't have very much money. So this is interesting and I'm like, "Yeah, that's what I'm going to do." And I said, I'm going to have it as barrier free as possible. And he's like, how barrier free are you going to be? And I'm like, really barrier free. So we're clearly not retiring on the fundraising school. We think of it like our family nonprofit. But we offer workshops and courses and programs to organizations. I do consider that we pay, myself and our instructors, quite well.
00:04:40 Rowena: I do probably observe a little bit of the admin of the school but what I decided this last year was I'd start fundraising against the school because I thought that's probably a better model. And so for the first time, we have two funders funding our biggest program so that we're prepaid at the beginning of the year. And so it also pays for our admin. It pays for a good portion of our expenses associated with the school. And then we are offering it to organizations just for a $50 registration fee.
00:05:13 Rowena: So to me, that is a model moving forward of how I will be ensuring that we get paid. And it allows us to get a little bit out of the hustle, which you guys would understand. And those in the fundraising world would understand we were also hustling. So anything we could get out of, any way we can get out of the hustle, I will continue to pursue that model going forward to.
00:05:34 Jess: We love that. The anti-hustle model is amazing. I'd love to hear more about these funders that are, you know, making this so possible and accessible for so many organizations. Are those like grant funders? Are those just humans? Do they consider this a donation or do they consider this an investment that they get a return on? I'd love to hear more about that.
00:06:07 Rowena: That's a, I love speaking about them, too. So the model actually came out of a conversation with First West Foundation, which is a foundation here in BC. Susan Byrom is the executive director and a good friend of the school, somebody who I would jump on a Zoom call and we would just mull things over. You know, we have the same interests to help to… to help the industry. And I said to her, you know, Susan, I feel like our workshops. How's it going, Rowena, after the first year? I said, well, I feel like our workshops are really obvious, right? Diversifying revenue, the power of your story, sponsorship. But the organizations, you know, fundraising doesn't have like a 20 step. Do you have these 20 steps and you'll succeed. But we do have a path, right? You have to go on a journey and there's building blocks. And I said, organizations are to me not seeing the path. Right.
00:07:05 Rowena: And she said, well, why don't you make the path? I said, that's a very interesting statement, Susan. And then she said, you make the path and I will pay for the organizations to go. And so she pitched it to me. So that was the first time we ran a pilot and we did it and kind of nailed it. I would say we were pretty close at the end of it. We did. We both actually had the same thought. We need a little bit more support for them. So she came to me with an idea of a phase two, right, when I was already thinking of that and then she renewed the next year. First West came back and renewed the next year, doubled their commitment to kind of wrap that phase two into the program. And then I went to tech, which is a mining company.
00:07:56 Rowena: And I always say we teach in our course, ask for money, get advice, ask for advice and get money. Right. If you can remember anything. And I went to them and said, I have this great program. I think it's, you know, I'm looking to kind of shop it around. Can you give me your thoughts on it? And their thoughts were in. That was without a deck, without a proposal. It was in an email. And they said to your question, just they said, do you have a sponsorship deck? And I said, just so you know, this is not sponsorship. I am not a nonprofit. There is no, it's not a donation. This is a… I have a for profit company, even though I joke about the nonprofit.
00:08:36 Rowena: So it is really supporting the sector with very little in return. And they were very flexible in that. They were fine with it. I did give them more of a formal proposal. But they were completely fine with it. And I just kind of feel like we're on this journey together. Like we know we're going to, we're making changes from, so we went from that one pilot cohort to four this year. All will be 12 organizations each. And our fourth one that we're having in October for the first time, we're doing indigenous led organizations only. So it's allowed the school to be as flexible as we want and what we want to get out of the program. And our funders have been nothing but just supportive and not putting anything on what they hope to see.
00:09:27 Cindy: I love all of that and have seen how accessible this is. And I know in addition to the cohort specifically for indigenous led organizations, I believe most of the others are for small organizations, generally speaking. I have so many questions, but let's start with. Oh, I want to start with kind of like you mentioned that they don't ask for a lot but do they do report back? I mean, I'm sure as a good fundraiser, you report back to them. How do you talk about or think about your impact with this? Because it definitely is more of an impact model, almost like a social enterprise. So when you're thinking about those relationships and what you want to accomplish with these cohorts, how do you frame that or talk about? Because we also know that you can teach people fundraising and they can raise some money in like, in their year end or whatever. But the real transformation comes in the long term. So I'd love to hear how you articulate that with these partners.
00:10:43 Rowena: That's a great question and one that we are fleshing out as we go, which is great. We, having the partners actually made us think further ahead probably than we would have had. Like it makes you, you know, just like to start the business side, right? A business plan. It makes you think of things differently when you have these conversations with partners. They have great questions. And those are the kind of questions they have. We survey at the end of, we have like a course component, we survey at the end of that course component. We survey at the end of, we have like a one on one support component.
00:11:14 Rowena: And then I think, what we're building in, myself and our amazing admin for the school, we hash out plans. It is like, how do we continue to, we'll do like a six month check in post course. We've had a lot of, you know, unexpected things. We had one organization in the last cohort just fold right after, like they don't exist anymore. Like the, you know, the governance came in and so like we're done. So we had another, for the first time we had somebody leave her organization right when they were done, the course. And of course, she takes that with her. Right. There's no, we don't record our sessions. That's not what it's all about. So I'd say if we, I kind of think of it like a traditional, I always say, like, if you're looking at your board, I say to organizations, say we have 10 members on the board, usually have like two or three that are like, they're just in it. Right.
00:12:07 Rowena: They're gung ho. You have like two or three that are not. And then you have kind of this middle ground. They're there. You know, they'll answer emails. I think of these cohorts kind of like that, too. You kind of, we're seeing like, you know, out of the 12, we have, say, four that are just in it and you can just see it. And, you know, that relationship is built and I still hear from them and you have two or three that they dissolve. We never really hear from them. Sometimes I hear from them and they're like, actually, we got what we needed. It's not a long term relationship with you, which I take very hard. And then you have to kind of be in this middle group.
00:12:44 Rowena: So it's, you know, that feeling of like, this doesn't have to be it for everyone. And it can't be big, they have to go through this themselves. But how do we, you know, I think that probably we'll send, like an invitation to join us by Zoom, say, six months later, and we'll just hear from them. It is about relationships. And we do find this, they're less survey respondents. So, maybe it's a one on one touch base, we'll have to figure that out.
00:13:11 Jess: Leaning into that a little bit, I feel like in our kind of online business world, we're very much taught that when, you know, people pay, they pay attention and hearing that your participants, students pay very little to be a part of this amazing program. I'm curious how you all, what your experience with that statement is. Is it the opposite? Is it that you don't really care either way because you have this commitment to accessibility? I'm just curious.
00:13:47 Rowena: We offered, when we did the first pilot, we offered it completely no fee. And we learned from that, that it is not, I don't think things are taken as seriously. So we do have a $50 registration fee for the cohorts now that we have indicated that we will waive if it's a barrier. And we probably waive at least one per cohort because $50 is a barrier for these, some of them. But that, even just the negotiation of that barrier means, like commitment, right? Like that's like, they're in it. And so that $50 fee, I feel has… is, you know, we have pretty much almost 100% acceptance once we go through the list.
00:14:37 Rowena: Every once in a while, we have somebody who's like, "Oh, you know, we really put some more thought into it and we can't accept this right now." So I do feel like that has helped. I also am looking at other models kind of more from the consulting world about that marketing. And I think we could do better and we have a social media and marketing instructor at the school who has her own consulting company. And we're in current conversations about hiring her to do some, to help us and teach us. I do think there's something to say about demonstrating what the value is. So what is the actual, so this is a program that would cost this much and then it's paid for by partners. And we don't go out and say that because we don't want people to think we offer a $50 value, right? Like it's 11 hours of course content. So I think we can learn more from those that are better in that sphere and do better so that people see the value of what we're offering.
00:15:35 Cindy: Yeah, I'd love to see what she comes up with when you do that. Because I think it's such a fine line, because I feel like in the digital marketing space, everyone has their value stacks. Like when we sell things online, right? We've all been on a webinar by, like, Amy Porterfield or someone like that. And like I love Amy Porterfield, but it's like you're getting $30,000 worth of content or like for $3,000, which feels really inauthentic. But you are legitimately delivering like thousands of dollars worth of value for $50. So it's going to be, so we'll be watching because I think that that's so critical. What you're doing has so much value. I want to ask about your goals, right? Like you went from one to four cohorts, one to two funders. Where do you see this going in your, I don't want to say wildest dreams, but like in your dreams for the next couple of years?
00:16:37 Rowena: I love that question. I think about it a lot. I also have another part time job and we have, I think, around seven instructors working for the school now in their topic areas. I should know that off the top of my head. But I think that the school has kind of grown really organically and it has been much more about relationships than I first anticipated. I, at first I took out, you know, ads and this or that, or I, you know, all the people who are like, they got ads or I did this. And I actually think those didn't go anywhere, but you never know who, like it starts to be brand recognition. So I won't discount that that was not a good idea. They start to see the school and the logo and like, you know, I do every once in a while get an email from like the East Coast being like, oh, we're hearing about you everywhere. And I'm sitting in my little North Van office. I'm like, you are amazing.
00:17:41 Rowena: So where do we want to go? I think that we will continue to respond to, need. And so where we're going to go is where we're needed to go. I, right now, have kind of a ceiling on that with that. I'm the… one of the main instructors. So I and all of our instructors, almost all of them have consulting businesses or full time jobs. So I would have to see how that looks. If you know, if our Indigenous protocols for fundraisers workshop was just selling out like wildfire, we would just offer more. So we just really are going with where the demand and need are. I think the accelerator is something and I do think we could get more funding for some of our other workshops. But to be honest, a 90 minute workshop is $40. So I don't think that's a barrier per se. I think it's more the marketing side of what we're doing that will help us take off. I've been a little bit reluctant to even kind of do better in that way because we don't have a lot of the manpower to be able to back it up. So I want it to grow nice and slowly as we can think about our resourcing.
00:18:52 Jess: As you talked about that right now, the question that popped into my head, that is something that Cindy and I discussed a lot with some of our other friends who we peer mastermind with about how much time do you spend working? Is it in your business versus on your business? And the results of that? I mean, Cindy just asked you about your growth goals. And I imagine it's more difficult to scale or reach more organizations to even know that you're offering this when you're so head down as an instructor versus building out some capacity so that you can do the work on the marketing. Yeah, I'm curious, like what it looks like, present day and where you'd like to be. Let's call it, you know, in 2024 or something.
00:19:42 Rowena: I think that I would say I'll add one thing to my dream and my 10 year old daughter would be mad if I didn't, is that we would love to have, in Vancouver a school. So we would love to have space in Vancouver in the future. And we do vision boards every holiday season. She's been doing them since I think she was five. And she talks about that. She's like, Mom, when I'm a teenager, I'm going to work at the front desk. I can answer the phones. So we would like to have, so I'm putting that like in my, you know, in my vision. I would like to have that. I would like to fundraise against it as well to have, you know, community space that corporations pay for so that organizations can come use boardrooms and for strategic planning or whatever. So that's kind of their own, no, Jess, I totally forgot what you had asked me because I was going with my–
00:20:43 Jess: It's okay. No, I'm just curious about working on your business versus in your business and how that applies to your kind of growth goals.
00:20:51 Rowena: So I actually think we have a… we've hired a virtual admin, an administrator, who's I love Diana. I hope she listens to this. She's amazing. She's changed my life and the school's life. And she is like, this is like, I feel like it's her business as well. Like, she's really in it. At the end of the day, my time that I spend on the business, we have made a commitment as a family that this will be kind of our volunteer commitment, to be honest. And I don't think that this is something that we're really looking to recoup my time for. I don't think I do a lot. I do. I have so much support in the school. I have so much support by lovely humans like yourselves and the work that you're doing, that I feel like everything is fair. What's going on? And I don't feel I have to hustle a lot. I feel like there's so much goodwill and good karma and good energy that it's kind of taking on a life of its own, which I am very grateful for.
00:21:50 Cindy: Oh, okay. I want to talk about marketing, but I also actually want to talk about your daughter. And because sometimes it comes up with my kids to this idea of like the legacy of the business and like, is this something they can take over one day? Because I think we look at, you know, more traditional business models and, you know, they become family businesses. So let's start with that. We can come back to the marketing because that we can talk about for forever but tell me a little bit about like your daughter's involvement and/or even your whole family's involvement and what, I mean, what you're doing to teach her about entrepreneurship, about fundraising, about the business side of things and like what your dreams would be like for her.
00:22:50 Rowena: I think it is so amazing to see what the… even these kids learn at such a young age now, right? When they learn about so many things in school, and they're exposed to so many different things. Amara has been part of this journey since she was born, she has done, like the countdowns at like MX Bikes at the podium. She's done, she just has grown up in this world of charities since she was, since she can remember. She knows her mom, mommy does. And she's a part of it. And I think that, I actually don't think she would take on the legacy of this book if she wants to be a dancer. But I think that the… like the foundational part of this is like part of her. Like she will always be volunteering and the more I can expose her to, the more I'm excited to do so.
00:23:48 Rowena: So we are also, you know, on the site, we are also personally always looking to pursue and be a part of, in our own cultures and our, you know, Indigenous communities and learn more about that. So the school actually offers really interesting relationships for us where we can explore that. I was on a Zoom call yesterday with an organization that is going to be applying for our Indigenous led cohort. And he said, you know, they're in Vancouver and he's like Amara can come down and do our cultural programming as of next year. And why don't you come down for a tour? So as much as there's amazing things that we could do, there's also like, there's soul connections to be had in the work that we're doing too for our family.
00:24:39 Jess: Okay, Rowena, it is time for another round of our rapid fire questions. Are you ready to play?
00:24:48 Rowena: I'm ready. I hope there's a big prize at the end.
00:24:51 Jess: The big prize is finishing the questions and living to tell the tale. Okay, you mentioned in our interview that you live in North Vancouver as a [SoCal] girl who's never traveled to your part of the world. What is like, one must-do place I need to eat, grab a coffee, go for a hike, like give me the one.
0:025:07 Rowena: I would go to Cafe Crema in West Vancouver and grab a coffee and then walk the seawall along the ocean and do, with a friend. So you have something to chat about and you can see the paddle boarders and the kayakers, sometimes a seal, once we saw a sea otter, which is amazing. So it is a must do here. One of my favorite things to do.
00:25:35 Jess: Okay, adding it to the list. You also mentioned in our chat that you have a 10 year old. What is one piece of advice you would give to a working mom?
00:25:47 Rowena: To be kind to yourself, to give yourself, to just be kind to yourself, to understand that things are going to go awry, amiss and that. And at the end of the day, nothing is more important than family. And so I do that quite often and to remind myself that that's what your legacy is, as much as we have our businesses, that's our true legacy.
00:26:23 Jess: Absolutely. And last but not least, where is one place or person you go to for business advice or inspiration?
00:26:32 Rowena: Oh, I have a call with her this afternoon. I'm a longtime friend and mentor, Jennifer Johnstone at Central City Foundation and also current AFP Foundation, Canada Foundation, Canada president. If I said that right. And she has given me so much advice and mentorship of the school and, but also often over a happy hour, which we were just talking about. And we're going to be on, AFP Vancouver webinar soon. That's what we're talking about today. So I, she’s my go, she's one of my go to people for sure. And I really appreciate her.
00:27:12 Jess: I love it. Thank you for playing.
00:27:24 Cindy: That's so awesome. And just so great to hear because I do think there's so much we teach our children in how we run our businesses and show up for work and life and all of those things. That's really great. I want to talk to you a little bit about marketing, kind of circling back to, you mentioned and I know what you're talking about because I used to see your ads. So I know you used to run ads in, like digital publications. I'm not going to say which ones, but I definitely remember seeing them kind of like in their newsletters. You know, we all know what it looks like. There's like a banner ad or something like that or sponsored content. And you said that wasn't super successful directly, but maybe indirectly it helped. What have, and it sounds like for the most part, it's been word of mouth but I'd love to hear a little bit about what you've tried, what you've experimented with and what you learned along the way.
00:28:21 Rowena: Sounds good. Yeah. I would say the beginning of the business and opening the school was a lesson in what I say, humility, a lesson in, yeah, it was tough, I would say. At one point, I think I had calculated that I might have sent out 200 personal emails and not like, individual, like "Hi, Jess. It's Rowena and we probably knew each other?" So like, to people that I knew and I probably got like five responses and I called my IT person and I said, I think something's wrong with my email. Like this couldn't actually be true, like it couldn't be true. Like not even to respond and say like, this is great, Rowena. I'll check it out. Anything. Just anything. And he's like, no, nothing's wrong with your email. And I'm like, "Oh, so it was a journey in that way." I emailed.
00:29:30 Rowena: We researched every AFP chapter in the country. I think I got most of them on a spreadsheet. I had somebody do all the research and I sent, like personal emails to like presidents and, you know, their lead on fundraising or their lead on [ProD] because it's AFP. And just inviting them to like an info session. I had that time and I still do teach in the AFP fundamentals. I teach a module in their own [ProD]. And I had put that. I have been on the board. I put that in the email and I got zero responses. So I think I was all, like gung ho like, "Oh, yeah, everyone's going to be like, this is such a great idea, Rowena." And I did not hear that. So, that was fine.
00:30:17 Rowena: So it was about, like going through that and not feeling discouraged. And it just was, you know, that one email out of the, that you did get that was so important. And I have realized that a lot of it is those relationships with organizations that have come back again and again. They've booked private training, which has been great and I've supported them, but… so I'd say that we have a lot to learn in marketing. It was… I will share our social media, instructors sent me a note and said, "Oh, I've done a reel for my workshop. Could you accept it?" And I was like, you've done a, what? And then I looked at it and I'm like, "Wow, that's really neat. We should do that." And I said, I don't know how to do that and then I don't even know how to accept it. And so she had to like, walk me through how to accept it and that's when I realized, like, "Oh, we need to do better on marketing but I think we have enough of an audience now that if we can do better marketing, it would help as well."
00:31:27 Jess: What I'm hearing you say is that at the end of the day, there's like a whole bunch. Like we all join these or join, we all start these businesses and we're just kind of figuring it out. And certain days are harder than not. And it's making me think back to what you said at the beginning. Well, technically, this is a business. You said you are for profit. You also said that this is what you all consider your family is like, volunteer contribution to society.
00:32:03 Jess: And I'm just, I'm trying to also square that knowing that there are so many nonprofit consultants and coaches and business owners, especially women and women of color who are not charging enough, who are doing this work because of whether it's provide for their family or it's to have the ability to provide for their family and have a flexible schedule or whatever their motivations are. And so I'm sitting here thinking, like, "Oh, my gosh, this is hard." Like entrepreneurship, whether you're doing it as a business or as your volunteer contribution is hard. I guess I'm wondering what you might say or what advice you might give to someone who's, like in the hard, you know, and how you kind of move forward through the muck a bit. You know, does my question make sense? Because it is what, whatever the motivation behind why you run what you run.
00:33:01 Rowena: Yeah, I think that, yes, it was, I've had, even when I started in school, I had people say to me like, Rowena, you can't put a workshop online for forty dollars or people will think there's no value in that. Like you have to charge, you know, one hundred and twenty five dollars for that workshop. And I was like, well, I'm not going to do that. So the people who think there's no value in that shouldn't come. And so that's fine. The people who do think, the people who are in critical need of that information and only have forty dollars will come. And that's why I want to come. And in terms of, when I'm, you know, I do really feel strongly that people should get paid fairly and people should get paid for what they do and I feel in my model that I've created, I, you know, when any of our instructors, including myself, are online teaching, we all get paid the same. I get paid the same as all of our instructors.
00:34:10 Rowena: And I think it's really fair. And we have our admin now. I had a recent situation where I was asked to present at a conference and it's actually happening more and more, which is really exciting. It's a very busy fall and they were not paying for travel and they were offering an honorarium. And I said no, because I said, I'm not willing to pay. That's my own money then. Right. That's my money. I don't have a company that I could charge that to. I don't work at a nonprofit that has a travel budget. And so they offered to pay, my travel, considering. So I think there's times where I definitely, if it's like something external, I will definitely kind of stand up for myself in that way. I've been asked on other occasions to do things.
00:35:08 Rowena: And even if I don't feel like I should be compensated for that, I feel that I should ask because of the message that sends for that other person in the future who might not be as comfortable asking as I am. So I do use opportunities to teach in that way and kind of walk the talk and I think sometimes just to your last part, sometimes it's just hard. And I never sat on my computer crying, which I did when I was doing my master's degree. So that's a bonus but I never was discouraged by it, I guess. I was kind of surprised, but you don't hear from those 10 emails, but that one that you get, it's just amazing. And it's like our journey of fundraising. You get a lot of silence and you get a lot of no's, but that one that you get and that person and what it means to them, it's just magic. And I think that's how the school functions as well.
00:35:59 Jess: Well, and I think what you're describing is that's the beauty of being our own businesses, is that we get to design them how we want and what works for us. And it sounds like you've put a lot of thought and energy into creating that for you. And that might not be for someone else, and that's okay. But I also loved what you said, is that you're mindful of kind of like, whether you call it digging deep or whatever, when maybe it wouldn't be what you would do if it was just you involved, but to bring people up who might be a few steps behind you or who might not have quite as large a platform or as out of a voice or all these things. I think that that's advice that all of us nonprofit consultants can take and do a much better job of. So I love, love, love that example and I really appreciate you sharing that because it's not easy, this work at all. I'm projecting a bit, I'm like having a kind of a moment in my own business. And so, yeah, I just, I really appreciate that wisdom and advice for us in the muck with you.
00:37:26 Rowena: It's mucky. And everything is like so much more than I thought it was going to be, even starting the business. I was like, I taught for so many years. I knew my craft and I was like, oh, my goodness. What, I remember getting that, I did actually cry. I will admit. I had tears one time and I had just gotten off like my training from my website consultant on how to handle the back end of the website and she recorded it. And I did have a moment with, like tears in my eyes of like, "What have I done? It's just me in North Vancouver and how am I going to do this?" But, you know, we recorded that Zoom session and I went back and watched it again and again and again. And I figured it out and you just have to be confident that, you know, our brains in our head and we have, we're stubborn and we're, you know, we can get through this. And you just have to kind of stay on course.
00:38:36 Cindy: I love that. And also, as you're thinking, as you're speaking, one thing that is coming up for me is like, I hear from so many consultants that like working with nonprofits, we feel like we can't make money or like, how are we going to find a financial model that, you know, serves us and our clients? And I just think you've, it sounds like you've held fast to this value of, like serving the organizations where forty, fifty dollars is a lot, which I think most people are going to be like, why would you focus on that population? But you've come up with the model with getting partners and funders that allows you to prioritize that.
00:39:22 Cindy: And I just think that's, I just want to almost like, underscore that because I think that when we design our businesses to Jess's point, we get to choose. And it's so clear that you've made decisions that might have been a little bit like, off the beaten track, so to speak, you know, not what everyone is teaching or what everyone is telling you to do. But you've made it work and I think that there's so much people can learn from that. So I love it.
00:39:49 Rowena: I actually really feel, to your point, Cindy, that our… My school is a feeder for consultants. I think we work with organizations who don't even, we, they don't even really get, they don't have enough knowledge that they would know where to bring a consultant in. And there's many consultants who support smaller organizations. I know, you know, many. You guys do. Cindy, you guys do a lot of work with smaller organizations like, but if they don't even know what they don't know, then they can't get their head around how they get help. And so I do think that a lot go on to work with consultants, which I'm happy about, or know how to get help because they even know more about just where their gaps are or what they have in, how can they have a conversation with you guys? You know what I mean? Like, I feel like if we can just get them there, they know then, how to reach out. So a lot of our instructors have, consult. They have the consulting firms and companies because they can offer that feeder after.
00:40:59 Cindy: Yeah, I think there's also like feeding it, kind of like, I feel like there's a lot of consultants who are listening to this, who are like, "Oh, you know, all those calls I get where they're not qualified or they don't have the budget like send them to Rowena. Send them here because this is, you know, so great." And we're running out of time and I want to ask you our confessions question but I do want to ask if you considered something like an affiliate program. Jess and I talk about how that's worked for us. And I know some people like love, affiliates and some people are like, I don't want to do affiliate stuff but I do see again to that word of mouth relationship based marketing. And because there are so many consultants who are, like taking these calls and the organization has like nothing to spend. I feel like there's a lot of people who need to know about you and who can be sending people your way. So have you thought about that and like, yeah, what, or is this new?
00:41:58 Rowena: That is new. I think for right now, it's just been really people across the country. Like I just got an email yesterday introducing me to another consultant. We're going to set the zoom call. It's just been like one on one Zoom calls where I've just learned more about what they do. And I use it as much for my own research, too. Like I often on those calls ask like, what are you seeing out there and what are the pain points? And, you know, you're out there, you're in it. I'm less in it these days in a different way. So I'm asking, and so it hasn't been anything structured per se, but it's kind of constant in my world.
00:42:38 Cindy: Awesome.
00:42:39 Jess: All right. I was just going to say. I bet she's like an ultimate connector, too, because you're probably like the first spot people go to on their way to their, maybe first consultant or fractional fundraiser or whatever. So that's interesting as well on, like, the flip side of an affiliate model. Right. Like I could see another eventual stream of revenue for you by just passing off business.
00:43:09 Rowena: Very clear to not get into that sphere. Right. People we do offer private training. But what we're saying is that we'll come in house for a workshop. We are not delving into consulting and so we're, you know, there's a bit of a gray area in between where sometimes it's like a one on one conversation. But it's not, like then it gets passed off. It's more just so that they understand because they have trust with us. And so, yeah.
00:43:30 Cindy: Absolutely. Okay. We have to ask for a confession before we wrap up. So what is a business confession? Something that you might not want to share everywhere else, but you know, this is a safe place to do it.
00:43:49 Rowena: I did know I might have had a glimpse. This is coming and I've been racking my brain. And this might be only because I think I'm like the most open book person in the world. And so I tell everyone everything, much to my husband's, like horror usually. Gosh, I don't know. Like I honestly, like I don't, can you, yah, well.
00:44:17 Cindy: I will elaborate and like, okay, so because I'm also an open book and so it’s just like that is so much part of who we are. So what's the one thing that maybe took you a little while to open up about sharing or like when you share, you're kind of like, don't judge me. This is me.
00:44:32 Rowena: Can it be more like personally?
00:44:38 Cindy: Sure.
00:44:39 Rowena: Can it be? What has been really for me a slow thing is to actually combine my Indigenous heritage with the school. So people would say to me, you know, I remember one time somebody called and said, a colleague said, "Oh, we have these brown bag lunches and like, can you come on and talk about what it's like to be an Indigenous fundraiser?" And I'm like, "No, because I don't know what it's like. I'm a fundraiser and I happen to be indigenous." And so for me, it's actually, you know, we now are, we are, we have membership with the Canadian Council of Aboriginal Businesses. I just got new headshots and I'm wearing like, I look, I was like, said to my husband, should I wear these beautiful beaded earrings? And so for me, it's about connecting the school to culture and being confident in that and thinking about who we can help because of that and how we can lift up a portion of our sector that is really underserved. And so I guess that is a confession for me. You know, it's been a situation of how I feel. What is that when you are not qualified for something? It's like the–
00:45:49 Cindy: Like Imposter Syndrome?
00:45:51 Rowena: I feel imposter syndrome about being an Indigenous fundraiser. So that has been an interesting journey for me. I even have two other instructors who lead our Indigenous fundraising, Indigenous protocols for fundraising, because I feel they're better qualified to do that than I am. So as we slowly start to weave this together, it's been really an amazing journey for me personally as well.
00:46:08 Cindy: Amazing. Thank you so much. I'm going to ask you to share where our listeners can connect with you. But I also want you to just really quickly plug the Indigenous protocols for fundraisers because I actually think, well, it's for fundraisers. A lot of people can learn, especially as business owners, like we tend to incorporate some Indigenous protocols. I'd say more in Canada, but I feel like the States is getting there. So plug that as well. Where can our listeners connect and learn more about you?
00:46:51 Rowena: They can look at The New School of Fundraising is NSOF.CA and my contact is in there as well or Rowena@NSOF.CA to reach out anytime. And our Indigenous protocols for fundraisers, it's true. We go in-house quite often and do it for teams, so they do it as a team experience, which is really amazing. I will say that after the unmarked graves were found, suddenly every workshop was filling up and that has actually gone down and down and down and down. We've had to cancel some, we've had to move some and filling up is 12, I believe, and we have a big country. So it's been an interesting thing that this seems to not be on the radar as much and should be.
00:47:37 Rowena: And it offers a lovely, beautiful, safe space to learn more about how we can be more authentic with our protocols from land acknowledgements to working with elders. And it's not a pan-Canadian approach. It's really about just understanding that everyone's really different. And maybe, and we know at the end of the day that people will be more confident with the questions that they'll have when they go forward to their local communities and nations with their own questions. So I welcome them. I welcome anyone to attend Elder Dean from my community. Starts us off in a good way and you never know what he's going to say. But it is always something that resonates and it may hit three weeks later as you go through a specific time of your life but that's a fun thing as well.
00:48:22 Cindy: Amazing.
00:48:29 Jess: Thank you.
00:48:30 Cindy: Thank you again for listening to the Confessions podcast for nonprofit coaches and consultants. If you enjoyed today's episode, which I sure hope you did, you can show your support in one of three ways.
00:48:41 Jess: Number one, post the screenshot of this episode to your Instagram stories or LinkedIn profile and tag Cindy and I so we can repost you.
00:48:50 Cindy: Number two, share this podcast with a fellow nonprofit coach or consultant.
00:48:54 Jess: And number three, leave a positive review on Apple podcasts so we can continue to grow and reach new listeners.
00:49:00 Cindy: And of course, make sure you subscribe so you can get the latest and greatest interviews as they drop every Thursday.
00:49:07 Jess: And to our fellow nonprofit coaching and consulting friends, remember we're an open book and here to answer your burning biz questions.
00:49:15 Cindy: See you next time.