A Rewarding Side Hustle with Shannon Bowen
"You have to figure out what gift you have to give. What is the unique gift that you have to give?"- Shannon Bowen
A Rewarding Side Hustle with Shannon Bowen
In this episode,we chat with Shannon Bowen, a nonprofit leader who's rocking both a full-time job and a thriving side hustle. Shannon, the Chief Advancement Officer for a genetics and genomics institute in Seattle, also founded Monsoon Leadership to help people land their dream jobs. She spills the tea on salary negotiation, navigating the challenges of nonprofit leadership, and the importance of niching down.
Plus, Shannon gets real and shares a juicy confession about how she started her business the wrong way. She originally focused on helping people avoid burnout, but quickly realized that wasn't resonating with her audience. Instead, they were craving advice on salary negotiation and landing better jobs. This led to a major pivot in her business, and she's now helping nonprofit professionals earn what they're worth.
Want to hear more juicy confessions and learn how to build a successful side hustle? Listen to the full episode now!
Key Takeaways:
Listen to your audience. Shannon's story highlights the importance of understanding the needs of your audience and being willing to adapt your offerings accordingly.
Don't be afraid to pivot. It's okay to change direction in your business, even if it means letting go of what you've already invested in.
Be open to feedback. Feedback can be invaluable in helping you to improve your business and better serve your clients.
See your business as a service. When you focus on serving others, you're more likely to find success.
Don't give up. Building a successful business takes time and effort, but it's definitely possible.
Timestamp summary:
00:01:17 Shannon introduces herself and her work
00:03:07 Discussion of Shannon's ideal clients and pricing
00:06:35 Shannon's side hustle and time management
00:10:26 Shannon's vision for her business
00:13:25 The importance of asking questions in business development
00:16:26 Rapid-fire questions with Shannon
00:17:49 Renegotiating contracts and increasing prices
00:21:15 Dealing with clients who say no
00:23:07 The importance of tooting your own horn
00:26:07 Shannon's confession: Starting her business wrong
00:27:36 The connection between burnout and salary negotiation
00:29:23 Shannon's experience with building and selling online courses
00:32:10 The importance of listening and being open to feedback
00:34:44 The benefits of having a mix of full-time work and a side hustle
00:36:03 Final thoughts and how to connect with Shannon
Find Us Online: https://www.confessionswithjessandcindy.com
Connect with Shannon Bowen:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shannon-bowen525/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/monsoonleadership/
Website: https://monsoonleadership.com/
Connect with Cindy:
Cindy Wagman Coaching: cindywagman.com
Fractional Fundraising Network: fractionalfundraising.co/
LinkedIn: ca.linkedin.com/in/cindywagman
Connect with Jess:
Out In the Boons: outintheboons.me
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jesscampbelloutintheboons/
Resources
Dream Job Power Pack: https://monsoonleadership.com/djpp/
Salary Power Pack: https://monsoonleadership.com/spp/
Monsoon Leadership: https://monsoonleadership.com/
AFP Lead Conference: https://afplead.org/
Podia: https://www.podia.com/
Transcript:
[00:00:00] Hey Jess. Hey Cindy. You look so professional. Oh I'm wearing a button down shirt. Yeah. I was like in my closet. I have some nice clothes that I don't wear day to day but also the seasons are changing in Toronto and so So now I'm like into full fall wardrobe, I'm even wearing cords, which, yeah, next level fall.
[00:00:24] It's going to be in the 80s still this week here, so we're months away from cords. I mean, I kind of. Would love a little change, but I'd love to live in California. We should do a swap. I know. Freaky Friday style.oh my goodness. Today is gonna be really, I'm so excited. This is a guest we've been trying to have on for a little while and it just, well, our schedules have been busy and then, Again, I think I had to reschedule.
[00:00:56] It's totally my fault. But, Shannon Bowen from Monsoon Leadership, so happy to have you here. Yay, finally. So excited to be here with you both. Yeah. I'm not wearing corduroy yet, but it is fun here in Seattle. You look like you're in a sweater. I feel like you're getting sweater vibes. Oh yeah, sweater vibes for sure.
[00:01:17] Nice.okay. So for those of our listeners who don't know you, please introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about what you do and how you get paid. Absolutely. So a big reason we talked about me coming on here is I'm a little bit unique. That I still work full time and I have a full time side hustle as well.
[00:01:37] And I really believe that this is a great model for leadership going forward. So by day I'm a chief advancement officer for genetics and genomics Institute in Seattle. Yes, I know that is odd. I am married to a scientist. I can talk science, a strange superpower I have. And then I founded Monsoon Leadership because I really was concerned about the leadership pipeline in nonprofits.
[00:01:59] That so many people see leadership roles and they're like, hell no, I don't want that. I don't want to be sending emails on Saturday nights. They look tired and this looks like a terrible path. And I wanted to show that there is another way to be a leader. So I do a lot of teaching on leadership and management, but my main part of monsoon leadership is I help people land their dream job.
[00:02:21] So another one of my superpowers is salary negotiation. And I've helped so many friends increase their salary by 30 to 50 K. And they were like, you have to start teaching other people this. So now I have my dream job coaching package where I help people every step of the way from resume and cover letter, LinkedIn profile, interview prep, and salary negotiation.
[00:02:43] And then, help them, of course, land that dream job and dream salary. Okay. I love this. And I have so many questions. I definitely at one point want us to talk about negotiation, but we can come to come back to that because I would like to start with who your clients are. Because so many people we talk to in the sector, they're getting hired by organizations.
[00:03:07] And I feel like you're getting hired by individuals. in our sector, and that is a little different. So tell us a little bit more about your clients and like how you think it might be different selling to people, especially people who worked in the non profit sector, who have scarcity mindset and tight budgets and all of that, and what's your experience been like?
[00:03:31] Absolutely. So that is a difference. And because I get paid while at work, I can keep my prices low. And that's really important to me because my ideal client is actually mid level in their career. Because that's where we lose a lot of people in the non profit sector. Because they're consistently low balled, they're in toxic workplaces, and they're just like, I gotta get out.
[00:03:50] So either they go to the corporate, Government or they start their own companies. And so we're really losing a lot of talent there. So I keep my prices low so I can really, serve people midpoint in their careers. A lot of times they're stepping into leadership for the first time. So I also offer executive coaching, especially for directors and VPs and chiefs that are really leading their team for the first time.
[00:04:11] Cause that's another area that we lose people in because it's so overwhelming. There's no support, they burn out and they leave. so. That's how I serve individuals. So sometimes with executive coaching, I am paid by the organization, but most of the time I am selling to individuals and saying, you know, here, I'm here to help you every step of the way.
[00:04:31] But for obvious reasons, their work can't pay for them to get a new job at another place.I find it so interesting because while you're keeping your prices on the lower end and like I'm curious if that is compared to other people who do this kind of work in the for profit sector and all of that but also like you have such clear outcomes.
[00:04:53] The value of your work is very measurable and clear and so I'm curious why, or if you've thought about aligning your pricing, I'm not saying if you're giving people, getting people 30, 000 more a year, like I'm not saying charge 30, 000, but you can definitely charge something, you know, something significant.
[00:05:19] So tell us a little bit about your thought process and how it compares to other people outside of our sector or anyone else in the sector who's doing this kind of work. It's so interesting. I don't really know anybody else that's doing this work. So sometimes you'll see people that they'll help you write your resume, cover letter or LinkedIn.
[00:05:37] And that's a direct service I see a lot, but I really don't see people helping every step of the way. And really where I start is what kind of job do you actually want? And I help a lot of people who are making really interesting pivots in their career. And they're like, okay, I really don't want to do this anymore, but I have no idea how to reframe my story.
[00:05:56] To get into this new field. And that's a lot of what I work on and there's a lot of strategy behind it. And it's totally possible. but you're right. I mean, on average, I'm helping people, the minimum get 10, 000 more and up to, you know, up to 50, 000 more. So depending on the job switch that they're doing, so I could raise my prices.
[00:06:17] This is definitely something I go back and forth on, but at this point right now, this is such a service that I'm doing. And there needs to be a price point to it. But at this point, because I have this mix of a full time and part time, I'm keeping it low for now, but you're right. I might come back to it later.
[00:06:35] Okay. Thank you for like resurfacing that you're doing this as a side hustle. I'd love to talk about that a little bit because I know quite a few of our listeners are not quite full time as a nonprofit consultants. And so I'm just curious. Logistically, does this take up 15 percent of your time?
[00:06:56] Does this take up 50? how is this your kind of hobby and you just get paid for it? I mean, and I mean that respectfully,Is this what you do for, this is what you would spend your fun time doing? how, do you work weekends? Or late at night? Like, how, I'm just curious how you're managing all of it.
[00:07:17] And, because I think sometimes on the internet, It can come across as like I spend a million hours a week doing this thing and it's actually I only spend five hours doing this thing. and I think having that perspective for our listeners who are maybe going through their own evolution of doing their side hustle with the intention of making that their full time gig.
[00:07:39] I think it's helpful to paint the real picture for folks. Absolutely. So, first off, I have a million hobbies, and that's just something. You can see my Zoom background, so DIY design is one gonna have to tell us about, I know some of them about, food and drinks, and you're gonna, you have to spill that too.
[00:08:01] Okay, so my most random one is I'm a former ballroom dance teacher and I choreographed weddings for years, for 20 years. I've choreographed like 40 weddings or something. So I've done that a lot. I'm a creative writer. I've had a podcast on the show, Downton Abbey, now Gilded Age, gourmet cooking, gardening, DIY design.
[00:08:22] I got a lot of hobbies. I got a lot of interests. So this business, I would say it's a bit of both, right? So I'm a morning person. So that's how I fit this in. I have clients all over the nation. So I tend to coach, two hours in the morning before I start my workday because that's just when I'm most awake.
[00:08:40] I am not coaching in the evenings because I am dead. I do a lot of writing on the weekends. Or in those mornings that I'm not coaching, because as Jess knows, you have to write a lot of emails through business. And that's also a service that I want to bring is telling these stories of what I'm seeing in the job market and just helping people feel less alone.
[00:09:01] There's a lot of loneliness and a lot of shame in people's job searches, which is why I just did this anonymous job search survey. So people can see like,Actually, a lot of people get to be the final two candidates and don't get the job. That's actually quite normal. but we all think, Oh, it's just happening in me.
[00:09:17] So I really fit this in, you know, I work nine to five. So I fit this in the mornings, mostly because my evenings is my time for, you know, hanging out and cooking something really decadent. Okay. Totally. And are you doing this every morning? Are you doing this on Saturdays and Sundays? Yeah, that's a good question.
[00:09:37] So I would say probably three mornings out of the week and one, probably four hours on the weekend. Okay, cool. And then I guess for just context setting to if there's a hundred percent pie of your total income, what percentage of your pie comes from your side hustle versus your full time gig? Yeah, that's such a great question.
[00:09:58] So I'm only really in I mean, I started in fall of 2023, so this is my first real year, so it's still very early. so it's not that much of my full pie. It's about 10%. but it's growing. And as you both know, it takes a while to build momentum. And so much of my work is word of mouth. I do get clients through LinkedIn and through my emails and every time I present.
[00:10:26] Okay, again, so super helpful. And how, okay, so you've been at this a year. Plus now, which is so exciting. Congratulations. have you thought forward, have you visioned forward for this side of your business? Like you said, it's 10 percent now, do you aspire for it to be 30 percent or 50 percent or are you just kind of cruising at 10%?
[00:10:47] And that's okay too. Well, this is definitely a big existential question. And I'm really committed to staying in the C suite and nonprofits right now. I don't know. I was kind of traumatized by this headline that it was like, the C suite is empty because everybody's starting their own consulting companies.
[00:11:05] And it's so true for all of the challenges. that are come with leadership and nonprofits right now. But I was like, I feel like I am dedicated to still leading from within and the organizations while still helping our field. And so at this point, I want to keep this mix. And so one of the things I'm starting to launch now is more of those evergreen products.
[00:11:27] As we all know, this is the natural evolution, but also because sometimes people aren't ready to commit to coaching, but they're like, I really don't know what to do with my LinkedIn. To make myself look more attractive to recruiters. Here's my checklist. Love that. and you're at this point where your capacity is naturally like already limited, but also limited because you have those clients and because it's successful and you have the track record to now look at, okay, what do I want to do to scale?
[00:12:01] Are you on a timeline for that? Like what, how are you thinking about rolling out some sort of evergreen, program or service? So I'm doing that right now. So, I just launched my dream job power pack, which is It's 20 plus pages with checklists and guides and videos and interview prep questions.
[00:12:23] Questions you should ask in an interview, because you should be checking them out too. Okay. I always tell my clients you're looking for a job that deserves you and your talent, not a job you deserve. And then I also have my salary power pack, which is all about salary negotiation. And it's also about how to get a raise in promotion at work, which is a different strategy than when you're negotiating a salary at a new job.
[00:12:45] Okay. Yeah, absolutely. So you said that you've launched this, you're selling it, like, how are you selling it? tell the people. So I just barely launched it like a week ago. So, we're beginning, through my email list, which is where I wanted to offer it to my community first. There, I also just launched the, results of the anonymous job search survey.
[00:13:06] So that's kind of all coming together. and so I do the job search survey and I also did the anonymous salary survey back in January, which I will run again. And this is really just to bring transparency to, Hey, you are not alone. And this is what other people in your field are going through or getting paid.
[00:13:25] We are huge fans of transparency, as you know, I love that. And there's so much overlap between what you do with your clients and what Jess and I, and certainly I know with my one on one clients, teach people around business development, right? Like negotiating with a new employer is not that different than Finding clients.
[00:13:53] And I would love to talk to you because you said like you get to ask questions and that is one of the things I really push people on in the business development process. So tell us a little bit about, let's extrapolate that idea of negotiating and asking questions and as much as you're selling yourself, you're asking them to sort of sell themselves.
[00:14:17] I don't even like the word selling, but, really it is.you're both in the interview, so to speak. So let's extrapolate that to the business development cycle. What have you practiced in terms of your own business development or sales calls that you also teach? your clients. Absolutely. So I also serve business clients.
[00:14:43] So, because it is a very similar process of the nerve wracking conversations of, I want to raise my prices or I want to launch a higher price thing. So I do coach business owners. and then I also, it's coming up more and more in my dream job coaching practice where, okay, I really need this job for this stability.
[00:15:02] But I still, my passion project, I'm going to build that as a business. So really, you know, not thinking about it as binary, you can do both. So I do a lot of coaching on that as well. So I think that when I'm starting with a client, I start with a discovery call and it's really tell me what's going on.
[00:15:19] Because people have been trying right in this very similar business. They've been trying things, but it's not hitting, you know, they're getting interviews, but they're not getting the job or they're not even getting interviews or they're just constantly getting lowballed. And so really, let's try and figure out what are those roadblocks along the way?
[00:15:35] And. It's just the same in business. You know, if you're putting all this information out there and you're not getting business, there's something that's not hitting. You're not communicating your value clear enough. You're not saying here is this specific thing that I am the best in the world at. People are way too humble.
[00:15:53] So toot your horn. This is what you're really good at. And really standing out. I mean, something that I appreciate that you both talk about is niching down, but actually you need to do that in a professional setting too. It's really hard to be like, Oh, I'm good at all types of fundraising. No, if your secret sauce is You know, I am really good at writing appeal letters.
[00:16:14] Okay, then let's emphasize that. I'm really good at collaboration. That's really important. But getting people to be specific and practice, and that's the same as a business pitch, and it's the same as a job interview.
[00:16:26] Alright Shannon, it's time to play rapid fire. Are you ready? Oh, I'm ready. Okay, cool. First question. What time do you wake up in the morning? I wake up usually at 6am, but when I'm really working on stuff, I wake up at five and I kind of enjoy working in the dark. I know that's a little weird, but it's feels like a cozy time to work.
[00:16:52] Well, and in Seattle, you at some points of the year have a lot of dark, so. Oh, we have a lot of darkness here. Yeah. Yeah.what is your wind down ritual post the work day? Well, I'm usually making a cocktail because I am a farmer, a martini bartender. So I make a really good cocktail and my husband and I are usually cooking a gourmet meal and just enjoying talking after the workday.
[00:17:17] I love that. And then what is a hobby you want to try? Oh my goodness. That's such a good question. I really would love to get into, legit horticulture. know the plants, know what they grow next to, know the seasonality. I kind of know some stuff, but I'd like to get, really into my Monty Dawn season and, know plants.
[00:17:41] Thanks for playing.
[00:17:49] So, I'm wondering, do you advise people both for getting a new job, but I feel like actually our listener, what comes up a lot, like in building better together specifically is a rate increase with current contracts.
[00:18:07] And I'm curious how, if there's any different strategy or approach that you take, I'm just trying to make it really applicable for our listener. you know, let's. Say you've been working with a client for the better part of the last three years, you know, alongside living wages and the rest of the world and pricing increase, you're like ready to renegotiate your contract and you want to increase your prices.
[00:18:34] What are some steps you would take to advise people to get started and maybe like present that idea to a client? Absolutely. I think it's very similar to the process that I recommend for negotiating an internal raise. So when I'm talking about an internal raise, I actually say you should have one year of conversations with your boss to prepare and to give them all the tools that they need to advocate for you.
[00:18:58] Now, I don't think it needs to be a year for business, but you need to give people time. So there's a lot of baggage that a lot of people carry with money and you don't know what their baggage is. So you need to be able to present it in a way That is clear cut, makes sense and gives people time to think about it and to incorporate that into their reality of the money and you relationship.
[00:19:22] And so really what I would tell business owners is number one step is believe that you're worth that rate. You deserve it. That's the number one. Stand firmly in that hourly rate. And if you're struggling with that, Find your people who will tell you. Yes, you're worth that rate. Secondly, then I would build a little business plan around that of how are you going to communicate the value to this?
[00:19:45] And it's, you know, you don't want to just be like, Oh, life's more expensive. I need more money. It's no, I have stepped into that. This is the value of what I'm offering. And that this is how we can work together into this new framework. I'm giving you a few months in advance. So that we can work together to incorporate that in your budget.
[00:20:04] If you know their budget life cycle, give them at least three months before that budget changeover, because that's how long in nonprofits it takes because I build budgets. So you want to make sure it's a lot harder to change the rate in the middle of a fiscal year. So if you, a, you should always ask their fiscal year B you should plan to do this three months before their fiscal year ends and just have a conversation.
[00:20:27] You're coming at it as a collaboration. You're not coming in demanding something. You're saying, Hey, I'm increasing my rates. Let's work together to rework our contracts together. Here's the value that we can add. Then I want to give you enough time so that I know you need to put this into your budget for your next fiscal year.
[00:20:44] I love that. I love that. like not springing it on people at being a part of a conversation. I feel like 2024 has been just a year for the record books. And so I, I say this knowing that I've been very adamant around like feelings are not facts, but I am going to share a feeling that I feel like this of all years might be the year where you present this ask and people actually just say no.
[00:21:15] And so how do you advise people when they're like, no. It is a weird year. It is a weird year. I think the election is wreaking a lot of fears in nonprofits. Well, first off, we could trace it back to the PPP loans in 2020, and everybody got these PPP loans, and then they didn't build income to match it. So then they're left with a revenue drop.
[00:21:38] And then as we know, wealth is being hidden more and more in DAFs. So there's actually less of a pool right now for most nonprofits to get revenue. So there's a lot of fears. Just sitting in a leadership position in nonprofits, this is just what people are talking about. Plus the election and what funding sources could be affected by that.
[00:21:57] So I agree. It's a weird year. If you can wait till 2025, I'd recommend that. Just because there is a lot of fears right now. We're also seeing that in the job market. We did get a little bit of a surge in September, which is good, but not as much as we've seen in the past. And I think because people are wary about adding that FTE until we get through whatever our new reality is going to be.
[00:22:20] And we don't really know. And so I would say if you can hold up until 2025, I think it'll be more successful, but there's always the risk. If you're asking for a raise, a promotion, a salary increase, a rate increase, there's always the risk they can say no. And you know what you know? You know. And you can just walk away, because you can walk away too.
[00:22:42] And you know, I always tell people, yeah, you could spend a whole year negotiating this raise, and they say no, or they give you less than 5, 000, which is nothing after taxes, and then you know, it's time to look. Yeah, I love That because you are in control, you get to decide, it's not always that you need to walk away right away and maybe there's some in between, but you have that power.
[00:23:07] And I think so often we feel like there's not enough work out there or so many other reasons why we Say, Oh, well, I'll just accept last then. I want to go back to something you said about how humble our sector is and that we need to learn, I mean, your clients need to learn how to toot their horns better, but I believe everyone needs to learn how to do that as well, especially as they articulate and, share the value that they bring to the table.
[00:23:39] So I have a. Double barreled question. The first is, I want you to toot your own horn. Let's role model it for everyone. What's something that you're super proud of in your business? And two, what advice do you have if people are reluctant or shy or just don't feel that well, I guess feel that imposter syndrome so deeply that it feels really hard to do that.
[00:24:02] So yeah, two questions in one there.well, I think the best way to practice is with a coach. You know, and I will say I had this client we were working together and I was like, Whoa, did you just tell me that you got a 4. 7 million gift that you went from a cold LinkedIn lead to that gift? And you're negotiating another gift.
[00:24:23] I'm like, why are you not leading with that? That is amazing. That is so hard to do a major gift fundraising. So sometimes having someone listen to you and repeat it back. You're like, Oh, yeah, I am a badass. Yes, I will. I will lead with that. and for me, I think the best thing I'm great at is talking about money.
[00:24:42] I am bold and brave and talking about money. I am here to help you make more money. I'm here to help you raise more money, whatever it is, and I think that we are just holding ourselves back by letting our fears of money just stifle us. And you know, you are worth more money. I know it. I know you're underpaid because everybody is underpaid.
[00:25:05] The culture is to low ball. I'm going to help you overcome that and get the skills to be like, yeah, I'm worth 120 K let's go. Yeah. It's so interesting. I was, thinking just the other day, like how everything is so relative and especially around money and how. You know, once you hit certain milestones, it's like the boogie monster or something, like the fear around it goes away.
[00:25:35] For example, like I no longer think 120, 000 is a ton of money to get paid. Like I just don't, you know, I think like a million dollars and I'm sure people who get paid a million dollars think 10 million, you know, it's just like a really interesting. exercise that your brain goes through. so I really love that you're encouraging, people to really push their upper limits.
[00:26:01] of course now my question has flown out of my head. Let me see if I can get it back.
[00:26:07] Oh, it's gone. I hate when that happens. It'll come back in just a minute. I feel like we've covered so much. Shannon, especially like your attention, like your details. I love it. So I want to say let's go into confessions. I feel like, I would love to hear, cause so much of what you talk about are the things that I think people need to hear, but don't always.
[00:26:34] feel and also sometimes we're really good at, and I say this as well, cause I preach a lot of what you preach and sometimes it's harder to feel it ourselves. So share with us, what's your confession?my confession is I totally started my business wrong. I started off talking about burnout and how you can build a strong team that avoids burnout.
[00:27:00] And nobody wanted to talk about burnout because it sucks. And we're swimming in it. And so I built these You know, self paced courses on burnout and it was like, you know, balloon fall. and then all my friends were like, why aren't you talking about salary negotiation? Why aren't you talking about how you help people land their dream job?
[00:27:18] And I was like, okay, I guess I'll start talking about that. And then I really started sharing on LinkedIn and that's when things blew up and people were so hungry for it. And they were like, yes, I am so ready for someone to talk about money. And I was like, okay, burnout, you're out money. You're in. That is such a good confession.
[00:27:36] There's a couple of things you said that I want to dive into. , like burnout and salary negotiations in some ways are very connected, and I think you really hit on this idea of what is my pain point, but also what do I feel like is something I can actually fix.
[00:27:56] Burnout feels almost like too big for anyone to solve. It's not something that I think we feel like we're in control of, because it's such a deep thing in our sector. So, tell us a little bit about that shift, and like, how do you see the two being connected with your clients? and The idea of what's the, like having a meaningful solution to people's problems.
[00:28:21] Absolutely. So I still talk about burnout all the time. And anytime I present on seller negotiation, we start talking about workplace trauma. They're always linked because if you feel undervalued with money at work, there's usually something else going on. That's traumatic. So I'm still talking about it, but I think you're right.
[00:28:41] Like burnout feels too big. And it's not positive, but getting more money and being in a better job, that feels really positive. It feels attainable and it feels like an escape route. And so actually through that pathway, I'm helping people with burnout, with workplace trauma, but through just a different route.
[00:29:02] Super helpful. okay, the other thing you mentioned that I picked up on that I love to talk about is you kind of mentioned you built these things and you tried to sell them and you got nothing. And for anyone who's heard me talk About this before, you know, I will say sell before you build. So what?
[00:29:23] Sounds like you learned that. but tell me a little bit about that experience of building something. how far did you go in that process? and then. what happened? What was it like?I wish I'd heard that before I did all this work, but I hadn't gotten that message yet, Cindy. So I built everything in Podia, did, you know, did the whole self based course.
[00:29:46] my cousin did buy it, so thank you to my cousin, who bought it. No one else did, and I was like, I don't think this is working. And so really, what I started to do is I started writing emails. And I built my email list and then I started presenting and I presented on salary negotiation. Actually, my career, my business career really, started to get going when I presented salary negotiation tactics at AFP lead last year.
[00:30:12] And people were hungry for this conversation. Rich. I mean, people lining up at the microphone. And I was like, there's something here. And I got a series of clients from there and it is just, it's not stopped. And so I think that it was really like step back. And this is what I tell people. You have to figure out what gift you have to give.
[00:30:33] What is the unique gift that you have to give and you don't really know until you start putting things out there and people are like, Oh, my God. Yes. Oh, my God. Why has nobody been talking about this? I've been waiting for someone to talk about this for so long. And especially in nonprofits. It's talking about money, salary, ambition.
[00:30:49] These are dirty words. You cannot get this conversation at work. But our talent is just as valuable. We should be able to talk about that. And so I've really created this space in my business for people to be able to. To learn these things and to talk about it. So good. I mean, I would guess that curiosity ranks really high on your, I don't know, chart, whatever that is called.
[00:31:18] and I just want to call out and praise you for like your ability to have open ears and listen, because like your story actually is reminding me So much of Cindy and I's really good friend, Rachel bear Bauer, who similarly like really tried to teach on burnout through the lens of productivity.
[00:31:40] And again, it just was not being received really well. And Rachel to just kept at it, kept listening to what people were really saying, which in your case was more about. Salary negotiation and increased pay and Rachel's more about like automation and time saving tactics. but I just feel like there's a lot of people out there who've already decided their way is the way and they're not willing to make adjustments and pivot and it's just, oh my gosh.
[00:32:10] it has to be so, so, so frustrating. So I just like really want to say, hats off to you. before we like really wrap up, I know we did a mid episode confession. you've mentioned an email list and I'd like to just talk about building it because I feel like when I Recommend to people about building an email list.
[00:32:32] It's the getting started part that feels the most daunting and people don't believe me. I have a voice or I mean, a note memo in my phone where I tracked for, I mean, I still track it not weekly, but I tracked every single week when I sent an email to 18 people to 26 people. Like it was, Small for many months.
[00:32:56] but I still did it and I think people are like, why would I spend my time sending an email to 26 people? And so I'm just curious. You've been at this a year. what are some of the things that have really worked for you in terms of building your email list? And if you could even share, like how big is your email list?
[00:33:14] Because I think people think you need tens of thousands of people on your email list. And I'm hoping you'll tell us that's not true. I only have 300 people on my email list, but they're very active. So I have a minimum 50 percent open rate. Consistent clicks, replies a lot. I do a lot of personal storytelling.
[00:33:34] So again, when I really started writing from the heart, that's when things really started to take off. So I couldn't believe that this email was the one that people went bananas over, but it was like, I've been waiting for this day for two years to get my foundation fixed in my house, which is so boring.
[00:33:51] Okay, you spend all this money for someone to just bolt your house to the ground more. It's so boring, but I related it to all the hard work that you do on professional development. So you are ready when you want to step into that leadership role. You've been doing all the internal work and you're ready to go.
[00:34:07] Oh my God, I got so many replies, so many texts, so much. And it was like, okay, so now I write really personal stories. I use quotes and texts from my clients to just show, Hey, you're not alone. This is what people are going through. And to me, the value, it's not even so much about getting the clients in the sales.
[00:34:25] To me, the value is I got a text from someone that said, I just negotiated a raise at work. Your emails and your Instagram posts have been so helpful for me to be brave to do this. I didn't even work with them directly, but to just know that is helping. And I think that's, when you think about your business as a service, it's a gift that you're giving.
[00:34:44] And that's where sometimes I do help business owners when they're like, I think I do need to go back to full time work. Because if you don't have that income pressure, sometimes you can be a little bit more pure in what you're offering. And you know, we have to be able to afford our lives. That's just real.
[00:35:00] And so if you need to do that mix, don't feel bad about it. It's okay. But still think about what is that pure thing you want to give? Because someone might really need that email. They might really need that post and you could give it to them and help them through whatever they're trying to go through.
[00:35:19] So good. And I love, I mean, just looping back in what Jess said before and what you just said, I do know people, consultants who, sometimes struggle with seeing a really amazing job posts that they love and they're like, what? What do I do? Do I apply for this? Like there's so many things. And I think to both of your points around, like both the gifts that you have and how you can best serve and not being, necessarily always tied to the investments you've already made, Sometimes the right thing to do is just listen to your gut and move towards the direction that feels best right now, just regardless of what you've done in the past.
[00:36:03] And so, it's just really an interesting conversation, I think, around letting go of what you've invested in and what you've done. built and going back to that question of like, how can I best serve? How can I best support? And what makes sense for me and for whoever I'm talking to right now? And that answer changes over time.
[00:36:28] And so anyways, that's sort of, I guess, a final thought. Shannon, where can our listeners connect with you and find you online? Well, I'm mostly on LinkedIn. That's where I'm dropping a lot of hot takes. But you'll also see that I'm posting about my day job because I'm doing both. and I'm modeling that you can talk about both on the same platform and have a variety of people in your audience.
[00:36:51] I'm also on Instagram. I also post on my blog and then my email list is where you get the really good juicy stories, which you can sign up on our website, or on LinkedIn. It's right there. And yeah, I look forward to connecting with people. Thanks so much for joining us. Awesome!