Nobody cares about how cute your content is if it doesn't solve a problem for them. - Rhea Wong

To Course or Not to Course: Thoughts From Our Mastermind

Today on Confessions, we're diving into a topic that's been on all our minds lately: online courses. We all know the appeal, right? Scale your impact, ditch the time-for-money trap, and make some serious cash. But, like everything in life, it's not as simple as it seems.

On our recent Mastermind retreat, we enlisted our friends Rhea Wong, Brooke Richie-Babbage, and Rachel Bearbower to have a raw, honest chat about the challenges of creating a course that actually sells. Spoiler alert: the world doesn't need more pretty content. As one of our peers put it, "Nobody cares about how cute your content is if it doesn't solve a problem for them." Ouch, but so true! It's a wake-up call to focus on crafting experiences that genuinely transform our clients' lives, not just info dumps.

We also dove into the nitty-gritty of actually building a successful course – from how to structure it for maximum impact to finding your ideal audience and getting them excited to buy. It's a journey, guys, not a sprint.

We're sharing all the behind-the-scenes secrets, from validating your ideas (goodbye, biased "mom calls" 👋) to pricing strategies that attract high-paying clients. We even get real about the emotional roller coaster of charging for your expertise.

Get ready to ditch the fluff and create courses that truly matter. Tune in and join the conversation!

As you immerse yourself in this unfiltered conversation, you'll uncover:

• Strategies for validating course ideas through authentic audience conversations, avoiding the pitfalls of biased "mom calls"

• A framework for scaling your business methodically, from stabilizing your core offering to optimizing and expanding strategically

• Insights into pricing models that cater to your highest-paying clients, fueling sustainable growth without burnout

• Candid reflections on the emotional toll of pivoting from free to paid offerings and navigating dissenting voices

00:01:51 The Evolution of Courses in Nonprofit Coaching

Discussion on the shift from traditional courses to more community-focused experiences and the challenges of low completion rates.

00:05:18 The Myth of Creating and Selling Courses

Insights on the misconception of creating and selling courses being easy and passive income, highlighting the complexities and marketing efforts required.

00:06:29 Offering Courses to Nonprofit Organizations

Debate on offering courses to organizations with limited budgets and the realization that they may not invest in courses despite the intention to provide value.

00:08:17 Challenges in Course Creation

The importance of aligning course content with how adult learners process information and the need to create value propositions in a world where information is easily accessible.

00:08:53 Creating Courses with User Pain Points in Mind

Emphasizing the significance of addressing user pain points rather than creating courses based solely on personal interests or perspectives.

00:12:15 Understanding Scale in 2024

Exploring the concept of scale in business growth, focusing on maximizing time, money, and impact. Delving into the effectiveness of smaller group programs and marketing strategies to achieve scalability.

00:13:12 Building a Strong Foundation

Emphasizing the importance of audience building, branding, and marketing before venturing into new strategies like creating courses. Highlighting the need to understand customer needs and build a solid customer base.

00:14:08 Avoiding Distractions for Success

An analogy of the 'woman in the red dress' from The Matrix, emphasizing the importance of staying focused on core objectives and not getting distracted by shiny new strategies. Discussing the significance of prioritizing tasks and avoiding unnecessary distractions.

00:15:10 Challenges in Course Creation

Sharing the struggles of creating a successful course despite having a great idea and audience feedback. Reflecting on the difficulty of predicting customer preferences and the reality of facing obstacles even with thorough preparation.

00:16:10 Validating Ideas with Audience

Suggesting the 'mom test' for validating ideas with the audience, emphasizing the importance of conducting validation calls effectively. Discussing the common pitfalls of seeking biased validation and the need for objective feedback.

00:18:41 Embracing Chaos and Building Focus

Discussion on embracing chaos, focusing on what's in front of you for growth and success in business despite the desire to work long hours and try new things.

00:20:48 Importance of Coaching and Community

Emphasizing the value of hiring a coach, joining a mastermind, and surrounding oneself with a community for guidance and support in business decisions.

00:21:49 Scaling Challenges and Business Models

Exploring the challenges of scaling a business, the importance of community support, and the need to understand different phases of business growth models like courses.

00:22:32 Progression in Business Development

Discussing the progression from one-on-one services to group coaching and courses, emphasizing the importance of mastering each stage before advancing.

00:26:00 Niche Specialization and Business Growth

Highlighting the significance of niche specialization, value-based pricing, and structuring offers for scalability and profitability in business growth.

00:29:56 Centering Transformation in Course Creation

Emphasizing the importance of focusing on the transformation a course provides rather than just the content. Understanding the problem customers need to solve and the value they seek from the course.

00:31:20 Customer-Centric Approach in Content Creation

Highlighting the significance of addressing customer needs over personal content. Emphasizing that customers care about solutions to their problems, not just the creator's expertise.

00:31:59 Real Conversations on Business Strategies

Acknowledging the necessity of tough conversations in business, focusing on solutions and willingness to work towards them. Embracing the role of realistic discussions in shaping business directions.

Find Us Online:  https://www.confessionswithjessandcindy.com

Connect with Cindy:

Cindy Wagman Coaching: cindywagman.com

Fractional Fundraising Network: fractionalfundraising.co/

LinkedIn: ca.linkedin.com/in/cindywagman

Connect with Jess:

Out In the Boons: outintheboons.me

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jesscampbelloutintheboons/

Transcript:

[00:00:00 - 00:00:03]

Welcome to the Confessions podcast. I'm Cindy Wagman.

[00:00:03 - 00:00:11]

And I'm Jess Campbell. Where two former in house nonprofit pros turn coaches and consultants to purpose driven organizations.

[00:00:11 - 00:00:20]

After years of building up our separate six figure businesses from scratch, we've thrown a lot of spaghetti at the wall and lived to see what sticks.

[00:00:20 - 00:00:30]

We're on a mission to help other nonprofit coaches and consultants looking to start or scale their own businesses past the six figure mark by pulling back the curtain.

[00:00:30 - 00:00:51]

Whether you're still working inside a nonprofit and thinking of one day going out on your own or you've been running your consulting business for years, you understand that working with nonprofits is just different. We're giving you access to the business leaders who serve nonprofits as their clients. You know, the people who truly get it.

[00:00:51 - 00:01:10]

No more gatekeeping, no more secrets. This podcast is going to give you an inside look at what running a successful nonprofit coaching and consulting business looks like. We're asking people how much money they make, how they get paid, and what has and hasn't worked in their businesses.

[00:01:11 - 00:01:27]

Listen in as these leaders share their insights, their numbers, and the good, the bad, and the ugly. When it comes to building a nonprofit coaching or consulting business, we're going to empower you to make the power moves that give you the income and freedom you set out to create from day one.

[00:01:28 - 00:01:30]

You ready? Let's go.

[00:01:31 - 00:01:51]

Welcome back to the podcast. I'm here in the car with Jess and our friends from our mastermind, Rachel, Brooke, and Rhea. And we're missing Tanya, but we're bringing you back to behind the scenes conversations that we're having. And one of those conversations is about courses. Rhea, wanna kick it off?

[00:01:51 - 00:02:16]

I do. I have opinions about. Okay, so here's the thing. I think pre pandemic, this was a great idea. If you're the Amy Porter field of the world early to this strategy, you're probably doing great with courses. I will say this. A couple things that Jess, you referenced this a couple of times, is I think people are over it. Like, in terms of content. Well, it's not that they don't want to learn, but they don't. Just don't need more.

[00:02:16 - 00:02:18]

That's not the season we're in.

[00:02:19 - 00:03:05]

I think the one exception I've seen out here is probably Justin Walsh, who looks like he is making money from his courses. I think, though, what he has done well is he's a trim way, way, way back. And it's very specific. The other thing that we know about courses is people don't finish them right so you're out here putting your heart and soul into these little recordings, and no one's actually watching them. So I think, to my mind, the future of courses is some combination of courses to back up a community experience, because people want community. They want to be together. They want to be seen. They want their questions answered live. So what I find is, I'm answering a lot of the same questions I've already answered in my course. But people, they don't watch the video.

[00:03:05 - 00:03:08]

They just ask the same question, or.

[00:03:08 - 00:03:21]

They want me to tell them where to find the video. And I get it. I'm sort of like a concierge at that point, because I have too much to do. I don't have time to go through all this content. Just tell me where I can find the answer. So that's my thought.

[00:03:22 - 00:05:18]

So I have a slightly different, nuanced opinion. I think that I 100% agree on everything. Nope. All the ways, all the time. I 100% agree that we are not in a season of content. Teach me how. I want to hold it. Everybody's overwhelmed by the world and by life. I think that part of why Justin, while she's doing well, and I actually think, depending on the nature of a quote unquote course, people can replicate. This is in the past, courses were everything. It's like, I'm just gonna give you everything. What Justin does, just as a model, is, I'm gonna help you do one thing. And actually, because, rhea, you and I have done his courses, they're not even traditional courses. Yes, there are videos, but he's like, here's the workspace. Take an hour, do this thing. So you actually accomplish something at the end. And I think that there are still me included people in this world who are fast actors. I am a hare, not a tortoise. I don't really care about the community. I just want to do the thing I want to do. And if you tell me I can watch this 45 minutes video and do the thing, then that's fine. So I feel like the micro courses, the, like, very focused. There's still space for them. The thing that I actually wanted to speak to, just really briefly is the creation of the courses, because I have seen an uptick in people saying, oh, my God, I have all this content. I'm going to create a course. And I think that there is what I think is a myth, that a, creating a course is easy. It is not. B, creating a course that sells is even harder. It's an entire workflow. It's an entire business. There's marketing. There's so much behind it, which leads to c. People think it's passive. Like, I'm going to create this course. I'm going to put it out there like a billboard. And all the people are going to be like, this is the thing I want, and I'm going to have passive income. None of that is true.

[00:05:18 - 00:05:19]

No such thing.

[00:05:19 - 00:05:29]

People sort of go into it and think that they failed when creating a course is like, very. A good course is really hard. Hard, yeah. Yeah.

[00:05:29 - 00:06:29]

I mean, that's what I wanted to talk about. And then I know Rach wants to weigh in, but, like, the conditions in which people want to create courses, because I think that they're sold this idea. There's a few things. One is that it's easy, which, to your point, Brooke, it's not. It's really fucking hard. And it's hard. The hardest part of it is selling it and building the audience who will buy the course itself. Like, delivering a course is not hard. There's ways you could do that very easily, but people spend time on that and not on building their audience and selling. But the other thing I hear from nonprofit consultants specifically that I think is something that I'd love to hear you all to weigh in on, is that they think that they're offering those organizations who have no budget an opportunity to. They're like, well, I keep turning away clients because they have no budget. They have no money. So I want to offer them something. And to me, I don't think those people are buying regardless.

[00:06:29 - 00:06:32]

That's Rhea's point. They don't need more shit to do.

[00:06:32 - 00:06:39]

They're not going to hire you. They're not going to buy your course. They're not going to do the course. They want free information.

[00:06:39 - 00:06:39]

Yep.

[00:06:39 - 00:06:51]

And even with that, they're not gonna do anything with it. I think as a business model, we've been sold a bill of goods of what it's gonna do for our business. That's just not based on some assumptions.

[00:06:51 - 00:06:54]

That must be true. That are huge hard assumptions.

[00:06:54 - 00:06:56]

Yeah. All right, rach, what do you wanna say?

[00:06:56 - 00:08:16]

Well, as I'm driving, this is totally safe. Don't worry, everyone. Okay. A couple of hot takes here. I do think there is a space for courses, but to basically what all of you just said, I think something that. Okay, so marketing it, obviously. Like, you have to get somebody in the door. But I think that a lot of people have actually been burned because they've bought courses and they've been shit. And the. The reason is courses are being created based on how it comes out of somebody's brain and not necessarily how adult learners need to digest information. And so, yeah, like, it's possible that I know we have all that courses and we're like, this is crap. I didn't even open it. I didn't watch it. I didn't do it because there is so much thought and effort that needs to go into how adults learn and process the information, and that's just not being applied in 99% of the courses.

[00:08:17 - 00:08:17]

Yeah.

[00:08:17 - 00:08:52]

I also think there's something about the dwindling attention spans where we know the average adult attention span is 8 seconds. I would even say it's probably shorter than that. And frankly, content is cheap. So when I'm looking at a course, the question I have is not like, course or working with this person. And the question is, like, course, or can I find this free on YouTube or TikTok? And so I also think part of the challenge is how do you create the value proposition in a world where information is cheap?

[00:08:53 - 00:09:54]

Well, you said something in one of our other many conversations this week that I think is really relevant here, which is it's not about me as a creator. Right. And I think whether it's me as a coach or me as a creator or me as whatever, one of the challenges with courses, as I talk to people who want to create them, is often that they want to create them because they have something that they want to teach or they have a way of seeing the world that they think is important or helpful to others. And I think whether you're talking about a course or anything that you want to have someone give you their money for, you have to step outside of your own ego and say, is there a pain that someone else has that I can help solve? And as you all know, in the car, I have many products in my head, many things that I created that, if I am honest, I don't sell because they are just things I wanted to say. They are things that I like creating that were fun for me, that aren't responsive necessarily to a problem. And so they aren't a good course. That doesn't make a good course.

[00:09:55 - 00:12:15]

So I'm thinking of all you listeners right now, and I'm empathizing with you because I know how it feels to have people who love you and who know your business kind of shoot down an aspiring idea you may or may not have. We all have. And I think that we all keep it. We. We all keep it real. And. And I always say to people who are interested in a course, and Cindy's really good at reflecting this in practice, is if you're on the fence or you're trying to decide do I to course or not course. I think, number one, you need to have some conversations with your buyers because they will tell you if that's the kind of model they want to take or buy or whatever, it will give you really important feedback. Another thing I say to people all the time is it's mathematic. Like, you can do math to figure out if it's worth it. So, for example, if you have 50 people on your email list and you're trying to sell a course for $501,000, conversion rates average between one and 2%, maybe 5%. And even that it's modeled off of different types of businesses and different types of customers than we use. So I can tell you from my personal experience, I have an audience of 4000 people on an email list nearing ten on LinkedIn. My email list is very engaged. I work really, really, really hard at it, and I have courses. And when I launch, I'll get 17 buyers. I don't know what that percentage is, but it's low. It's really, really, really low. So that is a large ish for our space audience to an engaged list. And yet still, it is low. So I would just also challenge you to do some simple math and. And coupled with serving your community to see if it is, in fact what they want. Because what they might tell you is, actually, I want accountability. Or some people might say, I just want to be in your space. Like, Jess, like, people have said that to me and I'm like, okay, well, there's a different way to work together than a course.

[00:12:15 - 00:13:11]

That's actually what I want to talk about. And then I know Rach and Rhea both want to weigh in, is, so what does scale look like in 2024? Because I understand the first thing as people are growing their business or struggling with, because the problem they're trying to solve is they only have so much time. And I think people can charge more so that they are making more with the time that they have. But at some point, you want to figure out a way to do more with that time you have, make more money with that time you have. And yes, we're in the nonprofit sector, so have a bigger impact with the time you have. So I love smaller group programs. That's something that's worked really well for me. But I. And I spend most of my time on marketing for those. Right. Like, it's still a big sales cycle and all of that. But I'm curious what other people are thinking in terms of what is what? What does scale look like today?

[00:13:12 - 00:14:08]

So I don't have an answer to that question particularly, but I want to go back to Jess point that I think, and we talked about this earlier today, the woman in the red dressed. Right. So I think we often distract ourselves with the new shiny strategy, myself included, when we don't actually know how to do the thing in front of us. And I think for a lot of folks, especially starting out, the thing in front of you is actually building an audience. It's actually building a brand. It's actually getting your marketing together. It's actually like understanding your customers, understanding your customer. It's actually building an email list. And because you may not know how to do that or you're not comfortable doing that, you then click on this idea, like, I'll have a course, and then money will just come through the door. It's the same as fundraisers who are like, you know what? I'm gonna sit by the phone and wait for Mackenzie Scott to call. That's my strategy.

[00:14:08 - 00:14:11]

Before we go to rage, can you just explain what the woman in the red dress is?

[00:14:11 - 00:15:10]

Yes. So the woman in the red dress, this is Alex from Mosi. So those of you out there who don't know Alex Formosa, you should check him out. He's a little bro y, but I find him quite good. But it's from the movie the Matrix, where Neo is walking down the street and he's distracted by this sexy lady in the red dress. And because he's momentarily distracted by this sexy woman in the red dress, he has an agent who's about to shoot him. Cause he's lost focus on the thing that actually matters. He's lost focus on the fact that he should be worried about agents trying to kill him, not sexy women in the red dress. And Alex Ramosi's point is, the bigger you get, the sexier the woman gets, right. The more you're gonna have to say no to bigger ideas, bigger clients, bigger money. That takes you off course. So you have to get really good at a, identifying, and b, turning down the woman in the red dress in order to focus on the actual thing you need to do.

[00:15:10 - 00:16:04]

Okay. You have an amazing idea. It is proven. People want it. The topic is on point. You have created something that adult learners can do. Be really successful. You have asked your audience. They have told you what they wanted. You know what my audience has said for four freaking years? That they don't have any time. So you know what I did? I created a damn good course called reclaim your time. You want to know what? They lied. They lied. They don't want that. They want to stay busy and without time and blah, blah, blah. It didn't freaking sell. So you can do all the things right, and it's still really freaking hard. So that's what I want to say.

[00:16:05 - 00:16:10]

What was it Henry Ford said when you asked people what they wanted? They said, faster horses.

[00:16:10 - 00:16:44]

So, to that point, I recommend that everyone go on YouTube and watch a video called the mom test. And it's about how to do validation calls with your audience because and TlDR offer you. But basically, people do these interviews the wrong way in the way that you would ask your mom. Like, mom, don't you think it's a good idea if I create da da da da? And of course, because she's your mom, she's like, that sounds great, honey. That's great. So that is the wrong way to do it. There's a right way to do it.

[00:16:44 - 00:17:30]

I think two things that I want to lift up what Cindy asked about sort of what does skill look like right now? Because I think part of the underlying motivation for. I can't say everybody, but a lot of the folks that I've been talking to who come to me and are like, hey, I'm thinking about doing a course. There are two. One is trading time for money, is you cannot scale that, right? So they are trying to solve a very real business challenge. Right? How do I grow and scale? And for decades, we've been told courses are one way to do that. I think the other thing that is very difficult for humans, human people, is when our brain tells us that something is a good idea, we believe it, we think it's a good idea, and.

[00:17:30 - 00:17:32]

We look for evidence to prove ourselves. Right?

[00:17:32 - 00:18:18]

Very strong confirmation bias. We all do it. That's why we do the mom calls the wrong way. That's why it is so hard. Even when your closest friends say to you, I mean, at our first mastermind in January this year, we all did hot seats. Those of you listening, we sort of presented a problem. I think for all of us, there was at least one thing that we were working on that the rest of us were like, stop. Don't do that thing anymore. And I'm pretty sure all of us were like, you just don't understand. Like, I'm right, right? It is very hard. So I just. I'm a special snowflake, right? So I just wanna acknowledge that I think Cindy made a good point. These are real. You don't. It's not necessarily that you're this, like, egotistical narcissist who just wants to put your idea out in the world and don't care.

[00:18:18 - 00:18:18]

I.

[00:18:18 - 00:18:31]

Human people struggle with this. How do I scale? How do I scale in a way that allows me to bring my expertise to other people in a way that's helpful? And when. And how do I know that it is time to kill my darlings?

[00:18:31 - 00:18:32]

Yeah. Tonight.

[00:18:32 - 00:18:33]

New coke.

[00:18:33 - 00:18:35]

New coke. Okay.

[00:18:35 - 00:18:38]

So some people may not be old enough to remember new coke, though.

[00:18:38 - 00:18:39]

Yeah, I know what Jack Mister.

[00:18:41 - 00:20:48]

So one of the things just building off what you said, brooke, because one of the things that's come up in our conversations over this week was also that, like, for a lot of us, and I think for a lot of our listeners, our status quo is a little bit of chaos. It's busy. It's building. Like, a lot of us identify, like, self identify that we are builders. We will talk about that. And so I think that we also have to live with this. Like, to Rhea's point about the lady in the red dress, settle a little bit with what's in front of you, focus with what's on front of you, because, actually, that's where the money and the scale and the growth comes from, is getting really good at what you do, being able to charge more, or, you know, all that. Just stick with it a little bit longer, because. And I I will call myself out on this, especially early days in my business. So much of my identity as a, quote, unquote, successful business owner and, like, desire to be a successful business owner meant working really long hours, you know, building new things, trying all the new tools, you know, testing all of the different marketing ideas, because I was like, this is what I can be good at, and I'm just gonna do it all. And I think part of the drive to scale, specifically through things like courses, is this idea that that's what success looks like, and no one is gonna stand in the way of my success, so come hell or high water, and if I'm gonna work myself to the bone, I'm gonna do it, because also, it's status quo for me to work myself to the bone. It's my identity. Working in the nonprofit sector, to, like, constantly being able to juggle all the things, multitask all the things, hold all these pieces in my mind. And so that's actually most comfortable for me and. But doesn't always serve my business I.

[00:20:48 - 00:21:34]

Mean, I I know this is not about courses, but I think I'm gonna put a hard plug in here for hiring a coach and having a mastermind like this because it's hard to read the label when you're inside the bottle. And it's really helpful to have a coach who's been there, done that, who can be like, that's a terrible idea. Don't do that. I made that mistake. And you're borrowing their expertise, especially when it's something that you don't want to hear. Because I had fallen in love with this idea of my course. So, I think not being afraid to invest in yourself and borrow the expertise of others, but also to surround yourself with a community of people who can tell you the truth and who, you know, care about you and also can see things that you can't see about your business.

[00:21:34 - 00:21:36]

Aw. I love you, ladies.

[00:21:37 - 00:21:48]

So, I have a question for this group on this topic of to course or not to course. There is this perennial business challenge for many of the listeners about how to scale.

[00:21:49 - 00:21:49]

Right.

[00:21:49 - 00:22:31]

And I don't mean scale like, you necessarily want to be, like, $10 million on a 50 person team, but at some point, most people who are doing their own thing are doing that to build enough financial security and freedom so that they can have some freedom and autonomy in their lives. So. And that is hard to do only through I. You give me a certain amount of money for a certain amount of my time. What do you guys think is. And you spoke to this a little bit, Rhea, about community. What is the answer? If someone comes to you and they're like, look, I need to understand the next phase of my business model. I think it's course. What. What are the options? It's one thing, but, yeah.

[00:22:32 - 00:22:33]

Okay. So I.

[00:22:33 - 00:22:34]

It is one thing, and I.

[00:22:35 - 00:23:35]

What it is, it is one thing, because here's the thing. I, again, purchased a course. It was Sam Ovens course back in the day, consulting.com. the single most important thing that I got from that course was a chart. And the chart looks like this. And I'm gonna. But essentially, it's like when you're first starting, that's when you're doing one on one. Then you go to done for you, then you do done with you, and then it's. You do it, and I coach you, then it's group coaching, then it's course. Right? So there is a ladder, a pyramid, if you will, of where you should be progressing as a consultant or whatever, course creator, et cetera, et cetera. But I think the mistake that people make is running before they can walk. So until you, until you're really good at one on one stuff, like, I don't think you should be trying to be out here selling like a done.

[00:23:35 - 00:23:42]

For you package, or more precisely, not necessarily good at one on one, but part of what the one on one gets you is you're really dialed into.

[00:23:42 - 00:24:03]

Right. You understand your process, you understand how you solve a problem. And I think because we only see, you know, all of these people out here making money doing the thing, you don't see all of the years of work it took them to learn their craft such that they could market it at scale.

[00:24:03 - 00:25:59]

Totally agree. And I think that if you are so busy with one on one clients, predictably busy, because one of the things we've talked about is like, luck versus predictability. If you are getting to the point of your business where your one to one is predictably busy, you have a waitlist, people are booking months out, you can raise your prices. You actually like that to me is the starting point is get to a point where your busyness is consistent and predictable and then build in structurally that your prices, or you only take on a certain number of clients. And then. I love the chart that you talked about, Rhea. Like, I do think that, like, things like value based pricing program or like product or program based pricing, all of those things can help. And I would say as you look to scale or build a group type offer, don't build it based on the people who are willing to pay you the least. Build it for the people who are willing to pay you the most. Right. We think that it's actually a. And, you know, people talk. What's the guy? Russell Brunson and James Wedmore all have this like, ascension model where it's like an offer for the, like your $500 offer, your $3,000 offer and your $10,000 offer, and that those are different customers. But if you want to really scale quickly or make more profitability, you're going to build that ten, $10,000 offer for your $20,000 clients or $50,000 clients and give them a space that is where you are going to be able to pay yourself to scale and not burn yourself out in the attempt. Rach, what do you want to add?

[00:26:00 - 00:26:17]

I think, you know, I think everyone in this car, I'm guessing that pretty much all the listeners are kind of listening to this and they're like, yeah, bud, but like, no, like, I can. I don't need to. I don't need to niche down. I can do it all.

[00:26:18 - 00:26:19]

How's that going for you?

[00:26:19 - 00:26:21]

Right, right. How is that going for you?

[00:26:22 - 00:26:22]

But there.

[00:26:23 - 00:28:17]

Okay, so I am not opposed to buying a course, speaking of the graph, like, I'm not opposed to buying a course because there's one very specific thing or one very specific piece that I want to learn that I don't have. Oftentimes, I don't, like, absorb an entire course. I absorb, like, the very specific thing that I want. And I'm willing to pay for that if that's going to lead to more sales, more, you know, whatever, but. And, well, not bud. And one thing that I did spend money on was kind of learning about this idea of stabilize, optimize, expand. And it was used in a completely different context for a completely different thing. But I have taken that, and I do use it. They had different words, but I have used it in all of my programming. So, hey, any sprouter members, if you're in here, hello. But the idea is that you have an idea, you have a concept, and before you can move to the next level, you need to stabilize what it is. So if you are, you know, doing your one on one coaching, stabilize that, get really good at that, then optimize it. And optimizing might mean upping your prices. It might mean, you know, I don't know, adding, not adding, not adding, because that is expand. Refining who your customer is, getting more specific. And then the last one is expand. And once you expand, okay, great. You add group coaching. Guess what? You start back at the beginning and you have to stabilize that. And we often. Just one of you said that we try to run before we can walk. And it's hard. It's hard. Like we're talking as if we have this all figured out. We don't.

[00:28:17 - 00:28:25]

I was literally just sitting here thinking to myself, I'm actually gaining some insight listening to you guys. Like, I need to revisit some of my stuff.

[00:28:25 - 00:28:27]

Would you like a time management course?

[00:28:29 - 00:28:42]

Okay. I found the chart, if anyone is interested. So up to 100k, you're a generalist consultant, which is done for you. Then from 100 to 300k, it's niche consulting. Still done for you.

[00:28:42 - 00:28:46]

I just want to really quickly say these prices may not be.

[00:28:46 - 00:28:49]

Yeah, it's not reflective of all sectors.

[00:28:49 - 00:28:52]

That's revenue, not pricing.

[00:28:52 - 00:29:32]

Right. Correct revenue. But still. Then niche mastery, which is done with you or one on one, is four hundred k to six hundred k, then proof of concept is still done with you. Or 101. Then 101 coaching, eight hundred k to a million, then group coaching, a million to 3 million. And then online programs, 3 million to 100 million. So, look, obviously the actual revenue may not be relevant to the nonprofit sector.

[00:29:32 - 00:29:33]

That's the order.

[00:29:33 - 00:29:49]

But that's the order. And until just Rachel's point, until you max out on that particular stage, I don't think that you should be thinking ahead to the next. It's almost like worrying about how to become a Formula One driver, but you don't even have your license.

[00:29:51 - 00:29:55]

Okay, anyone want to add final thoughts? I feel like we covered a lot.

[00:29:56 - 00:31:20]

I just had one. I don't know if it's a final thought. It's not like capturing everything, but it is a thought that keeps coming to the surface. As I'm listening to you all, I think going back to one of the first points you made, Rhea, often selling courses is about giving people content. Right. I have content in my brain. I want to put it in a course. And most of us don't care about content. Like, content by itself doesn't mean anything. We don't buy a book just because it has words in it. Like, the words will teach us something or have us help us have a certain experience. And so I guess this sort of is a final thought as you're thinking about whatever your next move is. Is it a course? Is it a group program? I feel like centering your inquiry in what is the transformation that the person in my mind who's going to buy this needs to have? What are they buying from me? They're not buying my expertise. They are not buying my content. They have a problem that they need to solve. They have a thing they need to do. What is that thing? And then ask, is this sort of brain dump of content into a course going to solve that problem? Right? Is there some transformation that I am bringing about in creating this thing that I want to create?

[00:31:20 - 00:31:44]

Can I have one last thought? I share this with my group just this morning. We've said this before, and it's going to sound harsh, but I think it's true. Nobody cares about you. They care about themselves. And so, to Brooke's point, nobody cares how cute your content is if it doesn't solve a problem for them. Doesn't matter.

[00:31:44 - 00:31:46]

And they're willing to solve it.

[00:31:46 - 00:31:59]

Yeah. And yeah, they have to be willing to do the work or pay for you to do the work. So I feel like that's a good wrap for the convo. Hopefully we weren't too harsh, but this is.

[00:31:59 - 00:31:59]

We're the dream killers.

[00:32:00 - 00:32:24]

We're the dream killers. Yeah, no, but I think these are real conversations that we're having. We just put the mic on so that you all could be a fly on the wall. And I don't think any of us have, like, definitive answers. And you hold the right to prove us wrong at any point. But these are the things we're talking about for our businesses. Rhea disagrees with me. You can't prove us wrong. Yeah. You know, I thought I heard a.

[00:32:24 - 00:32:27]

Saw head shake near bread again, because you look since.

[00:32:30 - 00:32:42]

So. But I think it's really helpful to, like, these are the conversations that we're having, and none of us have it. Perfect, but this is directions that we're playing with.

[00:32:43 - 00:32:44]

I don't know. I think I have a good idea.

[00:32:44 - 00:32:45]

For a course.

[00:32:48 - 00:32:49]

With that. We'll see you next time.